Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:51 AM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Ralph)
2. 05:23 AM - Re:kolb roll (robert bean)
3. 05:44 AM - Re: Re:kolb roll (John Hauck)
4. 05:46 AM - Re: Re:kolb roll (ray anderson)
5. 05:52 AM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (John Hauck)
6. 05:58 AM - trim tabs (pat ladd)
7. 06:44 AM - Re: Re:kolb roll (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
8. 07:07 AM - Re: Re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw (John Hauck)
9. 08:05 AM - Re: Re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
10. 08:31 AM - Re: Re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw (ghaley@wt.net)
11. 08:38 AM - Re: Re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw (ray anderson)
12. 08:39 AM - Re: Re:kolb roll (Larry Bourne)
13. 10:09 AM - Aileron Trim (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
14. 10:19 AM - Re: Aileron Trim (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
15. 11:07 AM - Re: Aileron Trim (ray anderson)
16. 11:09 AM - Re: Re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
17. 01:39 PM - Tail wire brace size (WillUribe@aol.com)
18. 02:01 PM - Re: Tail wire brace size (Gherkins Tim-rp3420)
19. 03:07 PM - Re: Re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw (possums)
20. 03:25 PM - Re: Tail wire brace size (possums)
21. 05:00 PM - Re: Web Site - Fly In at Homer Kolb's (Mike Schnabel)
22. 05:13 PM - Re: Tail wire brace size (woody)
23. 06:51 PM - Firestar weight and balance info needed (jdmurr@juno.com)
24. 07:24 PM - Re: Re: Aileron Trim (Ralph)
25. 07:41 PM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Ralph)
26. 07:58 PM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (John Hauck)
27. 08:07 PM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Larry Bourne)
28. 08:28 PM - Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Richard Pike)
29. 08:37 PM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (possums)
30. 09:09 PM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Christopher Armstrong)
31. 09:23 PM - Re: Firestar weight and balance info needed (possums)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
-- "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
the tornado of swirling air, from the prop, hitting the right side of
the vertical stabilizer.
|
| Ralph
Ralph/All:
Does this have an effect on the rudder?
john h
MKIII/912ULS
John and others,
I'm sure it pushes the rudder over (to the right) and I should have mentioned that
too. It's a combination of both the vertical stab and rudder.
Ralph
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
It would be an interesting experiment to see if a couple pounds
of lead in a wingtip would do the same thing as a trim tab.
Is it possible that the reason I had to correct for a heavy left wing
is that I sit on that side? I may tweak a rear attach fitting to
compensate. -Also contemplating drilling new holes in the front
attach fittings to decrease the angle of attack.
Yes, I realize I'll need longer gear legs if I do it.
-BB
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
wing
| is that I sit on that side? | -BB
Morning Bob/Gang:
I bet that and rigging have a lot to do with roll problems.
When I think of all the varibles and possibilities of building and
rigging a Kolb just a little bit off, it is not hard for me to
understand trim problems. However, I chose to fly my MKIII from the
right seat because I had a good idea the Factory MKIII hard a left
roll problem that required my hand and knee to support the stick on
cross country flights. Local flying was no problem. Also the 582 may
have added to the problem because of the torque factor, the clock-wise
rotation of the prop. Seemed when I had a passenger in the right
seat of the factory MKIII, I did not have a left roll problem.
My 582 powered MKIII did not have a roll problem with pilot in the
right seat. Then I repowered with a 912 that rotated
counter-clock-wise. Ooops! Thought I was in trouble, but she flew
fine anyhow. At times, I do have a slight tendancy to wander right a
little, but at other times it might favor a slight left roll tendancy.
I experienced that on this past weeks flight to the Kolb Homecoming.
Reference trim tabs, I see not problem using them. They certainly do
not indicate the builder/flyer is lazy and taking a shortcut. One of
many methods of trimming a good airplane that is now in use and has
been for a long time.
Take care,
john h
MKIII/912S
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Sitting on the left side can definitely cause a turn to the left. In my Ultra Star,
leaning far to one side or the other will cause a slight turn in that direction.
Why would you want to add a couple of pounds of weight to a wing when
a one half ounce trim tab will do a better job?
robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean
It would be an interesting experiment to see if a couple pounds
of lead in a wingtip would do the same thing as a trim tab.
Is it possible that the reason I had to correct for a heavy left wing
is that I sit on that side? I may tweak a rear attach fitting to
compensate. -Also contemplating drilling new holes in the front
attach fittings to decrease the angle of attack.
Yes, I realize I'll need longer gear legs if I do it.
-BB
do not archive
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
mentioned that too. It's a combination of both the vertical stab and
rudder.
|
| Ralph
Morning Ralph B/Gang:
Let me see if I have this right. Prop wash hitting the right side of
the vertical stabilizer, in turn yaws the nose right?
Seems to me if the the prop wash was pushing on the rudder the same
direction as the vertical stabilizer, the rudder being a big trim tab
pushed to the right would counter act the vertical stabilizer.
Confusing, ain't it?
Take care,
john h
MKIII/912ULS
Titus, Alabama
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Hi All/
Quad City make a very neat trim tab in perspex for the Challenger which could be
fixed easily on wing,tail plane or rudder.
May be worth contacting them for a price. Looks better than just a piece of tin
nailed on.
Pat
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM05@comcast.net>
There are many ways to correct minor rigging and torque issues that cause
our planes to roil one way or another. You might consider trying the
adjustable wing attach fitting. I just purchased one from the factory while
at Homecoming. It replaces one of the universal joint fittings where the
rear part of the wing attaches to the cage. It's supplied with a bunch of
washers and you move them around till the plane flies without roll. It will
take a bit of trial and error to get it right but it is much better than
adding draggy trim tabs or degrading performance by adding weight. If you
can fix roll issues by moving weight that's also fine but I like flying from
the left and I don't have brake peddles on the right.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: re:kolb roll
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> wing
>
>
> Morning Bob/Gang:
>
> I bet that and rigging have a lot to do with roll problems.
>
> When I think of all the varibles and possibilities of building and
> rigging a Kolb just a little bit off, it is not hard for me to
> understand trim problems. However, I chose to fly my MKIII from the
> right seat because I had a good idea the Factory MKIII hard a left
> roll problem that required my hand and knee to support the stick on
> cross country flights. Local flying was no problem. Also the 582 may
> have added to the problem because of the torque factor, the clock-wise
> rotation of the prop. Seemed when I had a passenger in the right
> seat of the factory MKIII, I did not have a left roll problem.
>
> My 582 powered MKIII did not have a roll problem with pilot in the
> right seat. Then I repowered with a 912 that rotated
> counter-clock-wise. Ooops! Thought I was in trouble, but she flew
> fine anyhow. At times, I do have a slight tendancy to wander right a
> little, but at other times it might favor a slight left roll tendancy.
> I experienced that on this past weeks flight to the Kolb Homecoming.
>
> Reference trim tabs, I see not problem using them. They certainly do
> not indicate the builder/flyer is lazy and taking a shortcut. One of
> many methods of trimming a good airplane that is now in use and has
> been for a long time.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> MKIII/912S
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| adding draggy trim tabs |
| Rick Neilsen
Rick N/Gang:
See ya got home ok.
Any idea how to overcome adverse yaw using other than trim tab on
Kolbs?
I don't necessarily like that huge rudder trim tab on my airplane, but
it is the only solution I could find that worked. I tried off setting
thrust line, off setting leading edge of vertical stabalizer, but only
the trim tab will work for me.
john h
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM05@comcast.net>
John H /all
Nope don't have a answer for rudder trim. Moving weight doesn't help here.
If you don't use any power they fly straight. On my new engine mount I have
the ability to change the thrust line from side to side by putting washers
on one side of the engine and that might help but trying to figure which way
to direct the thrust just makes my head hurt. Also if I do that I will
likely induce a roll that I will have trimmed out.
Good to here you made it and I assume Steve made it home also. It will
likely be a few days before John W makes it back to Texas. If I had flown I
would still be waiting in Ohio.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>
>
> Rick N/Gang:
>
> See ya got home ok.
>
> Any idea how to overcome adverse yaw using other than trim tab on
> Kolbs?
>
> I don't necessarily like that huge rudder trim tab on my airplane, but
> it is the only solution I could find that worked. I tried off setting
> thrust line, off setting leading edge of vertical stabalizer, but only
> the trim tab will work for me.
>
> john h
>
>
>
Message 10
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Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM05@comcast.net>
| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ghaley@wt.net
WHO GOT MY SCOTCH?
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen"
> <NeilsenRM05@comcast.net>
>
> John H /all
>
> Nope don't have a answer for rudder trim. Moving weight doesn't help here.
> If you don't use any power they fly straight. On my new engine mount I have
> the ability to change the thrust line from side to side by putting washers
> on one side of the engine and that might help but trying to figure which way
>
> to direct the thrust just makes my head hurt. Also if I do that I will
> likely induce a roll that I will have trimmed out.
>
> Good to here you made it and I assume Steve made it home also. It will
> likely be a few days before John W makes it back to Texas. If I had flown I
> would still be waiting in Ohio.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
>
> Do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> >
> >
> > | adding draggy trim tabs |
> > | Rick Neilsen
> >
> > Rick N/Gang:
> >
> > See ya got home ok.
> >
> > Any idea how to overcome adverse yaw using other than trim tab on
> > Kolbs?
> >
> > I don't necessarily like that huge rudder trim tab on my airplane, but
> > it is the only solution I could find that worked. I tried off setting
> > thrust line, off setting leading edge of vertical stabalizer, but only
> > the trim tab will work for me.
> >
> > john h
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Aren't we over reacting a bit to think that a tiny trim tab will add significant
drag on 'dirty' airplanes like Kolbs and most light aircraft?
John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John
Hauck"
| adding draggy trim tabs |
| Rick Neilsen
Rick N/Gang:
See ya got home ok.
Any idea how to overcome adverse yaw using other than trim tab on
Kolbs?
I don't necessarily like that huge rudder trim tab on my airplane, but
it is the only solution I could find that worked. I tried off setting
thrust line, off setting leading edge of vertical stabalizer, but only
the trim tab will work for me.
john h
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
You make a good point here, Rick. My 16' boat has an off-center center
console, (no, I didn't build it) which causes it to tip to the right a
little while running. The previous owner (who DID build it) added manually
adjustable trim tabs to the transom in an effort to help other problems,
which I solved separately without using the trim tabs. So, OK, the point
is, I used the right trim tab recently to level the boat at speed. It took
quite a bit of down trim - I'd guess 6 or 8 degrees - to trim the boat
level..........and I lost 8 mph in top speed, and 6 mph in cruise speed.
(Mike S. - I finally figured THAT out this weekend in Mexico, talking to a
Striper 22 owner) Yup, there's lotsa drag in trim tabs, and that would make
a good case for trying alternates such as the adjustable attach fittings and
engine mount shims mentioned below, or the "off-center" nose mentioned
yesterday. The trim tabs work, and work fine, but this is also food for
thought. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM05@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: re:kolb roll
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen"
> <NeilsenRM05@comcast.net>
>
> There are many ways to correct minor rigging and torque issues that cause
> our planes to roil one way or another. You might consider trying the
> adjustable wing attach fitting. I just purchased one from the factory
> while
> at Homecoming. It replaces one of the universal joint fittings where the
> rear part of the wing attaches to the cage. It's supplied with a bunch of
> washers and you move them around till the plane flies without roll. It
> will
> take a bit of trial and error to get it right but it is much better than
> adding draggy trim tabs or degrading performance by adding weight. If you
> can fix roll issues by moving weight that's also fine but I like flying
> from
> the left and I don't have brake peddles on the right.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: re:kolb roll
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>>
>> | Is it possible that the reason I had to correct for a heavy left
>> wing
>> | is that I sit on that side? | -BB
>>
>>
>> Morning Bob/Gang:
>>
>> I bet that and rigging have a lot to do with roll problems.
>>
>> When I think of all the varibles and possibilities of building and
>> rigging a Kolb just a little bit off, it is not hard for me to
>> understand trim problems. However, I chose to fly my MKIII from the
>> right seat because I had a good idea the Factory MKIII hard a left
>> roll problem that required my hand and knee to support the stick on
>> cross country flights. Local flying was no problem. Also the 582 may
>> have added to the problem because of the torque factor, the clock-wise
>> rotation of the prop. Seemed when I had a passenger in the right
>> seat of the factory MKIII, I did not have a left roll problem.
>>
>> My 582 powered MKIII did not have a roll problem with pilot in the
>> right seat. Then I repowered with a 912 that rotated
>> counter-clock-wise. Ooops! Thought I was in trouble, but she flew
>> fine anyhow. At times, I do have a slight tendancy to wander right a
>> little, but at other times it might favor a slight left roll tendancy.
>> I experienced that on this past weeks flight to the Kolb Homecoming.
>>
>> Reference trim tabs, I see not problem using them. They certainly do
>> not indicate the builder/flyer is lazy and taking a shortcut. One of
>> many methods of trimming a good airplane that is now in use and has
>> been for a long time.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> john h
>> MKIII/912S
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
<< ... in the present case under review, we have a aircraft with a slight
left bank. Or course an aileron trim tab will solve the problem, but *why*
the slight left bank? ... work up a more permanent and elegant solution than
another piece of metal adding drag to correct the problem. >>
Penguin, and Kolbers -
From what I've gathered over the years, listening to what many Kolb pilots
have reported, most Kolbs (esp. the Mark-III) tend to bank left ... more so
when flown solo. I addressed this problem in my Mark-IIIC using the "John
Hauck bungee" method of aileron trim. So far, works great on my Kolb.
New Kolb has recognized this left banking trait, and now privides a
solution. You can purchase a modified swivel u-joint that bolts to the cage
at the point where the existing wing fold fitting is currently. Using
washers for spacers, the new fitting provides vertical adjustment for that
wing, effectively allowing you to dial in roll trim. $65.00 each. I may
get this.
Dennis Kirby
MArk-III, 912UL, Powerfin-70 in
Cedar Crest, NM
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
<< During a hard landing years ago, the nose of my plane was shifted
slightly to the left. it's enough to counteract the yawing to the right and
having to use left rudder in cruise. >>
WOW, Ralph - What a great effect!
Prang your airplane ... fix the roll problem!
That's the first ever story I've heard where something got BETTER after
smacking your aircraft! Never happens to me that way. You must just live
right.
Dennis Kirby
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Don't mean to be argumentive but it seems to me, raising the edge of the entire
wing will create more drag than a 4-5 inch strip of aluminum as a trim tab. $65.00
vs one penny. Lot less work installing and adjusting too. Aircraft, sophisticated
and simple, have used small trim tabs since Orville and Wilbur. Sophisticated
do use cockpit adjustible but you too can do that easily.
Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil> wrote:--> Kolb-List message
posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL
<< ... in the present case under review, we have a aircraft with a slight
left bank. Or course an aileron trim tab will solve the problem, but *why*
the slight left bank? ... work up a more permanent and elegant solution than
another piece of metal adding drag to correct the problem. >>
Penguin, and Kolbers -
From what I've gathered over the years, listening to what many Kolb pilots
have reported, most Kolbs (esp. the Mark-III) tend to bank left ... more so
when flown solo. I addressed this problem in my Mark-IIIC using the "John
Hauck bungee" method of aileron trim. So far, works great on my Kolb.
New Kolb has recognized this left banking trait, and now privides a
solution. You can purchase a modified swivel u-joint that bolts to the cage
at the point where the existing wing fold fitting is currently. Using
washers for spacers, the new fitting provides vertical adjustment for that
wing, effectively allowing you to dial in roll trim. $65.00 each. I may
get this.
Dennis Kirby
MArk-III, 912UL, Powerfin-70 in
Cedar Crest, NM
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM05@comcast.net>
Gary
Hey its good to hear from you. How did your house come through the
hurricane?
Oh the Scotch..... We all got together at Homecoming and had one big toast
to you. Everyone seemed to appreciate it very much!!!! Woody even found it
to be a fairly effective pain killer.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <ghaley@wt.net>
<NeilsenRM05@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw
> WHO GOT MY SCOTCH?
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen"
>> <NeilsenRM05@comcast.net>
>>
>> John H /all
>>
>> Nope don't have a answer for rudder trim. Moving weight doesn't help
>> here.
>> If you don't use any power they fly straight. On my new engine mount I
>> have
>> the ability to change the thrust line from side to side by putting
>> washers
>> on one side of the engine and that might help but trying to figure which
>> way
>>
>> to direct the thrust just makes my head hurt. Also if I do that I will
>> likely induce a roll that I will have trimmed out.
>>
>> Good to here you made it and I assume Steve made it home also. It will
>> likely be a few days before John W makes it back to Texas. If I had flown
>> I
>> would still be waiting in Ohio.
>>
>> Rick Neilsen
>> Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw
>>
>>
>> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>> >
>> >
>> > | adding draggy trim tabs |
>> > | Rick Neilsen
>> >
>> > Rick N/Gang:
>> >
>> > See ya got home ok.
>> >
>> > Any idea how to overcome adverse yaw using other than trim tab on
>> > Kolbs?
>> >
>> > I don't necessarily like that huge rudder trim tab on my airplane, but
>> > it is the only solution I could find that worked. I tried off setting
>> > thrust line, off setting leading edge of vertical stabalizer, but only
>> > the trim tab will work for me.
>> >
>> > john h
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Tail wire brace size |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
Greetings Kolb fans,
I'm getting ready to replace the wire bracing on my tail because the cable
tangs are starting the wear into the thimbles. This morning before I departed
for Kansas City I looked at my drawings and they call for a 3/32" stainless
steel cable. The question I have is it 3/32" 7X7 or 3/32"7X19 stainless steel
cable?
Also, as long as I'm placing an order I will replace the muffler springs but
does the FireStar use the 72 mm or the 66 mm springs?
Thanks in advance,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX but working in Kansas City
FireStar II N4GU
C172 N2506U
Message 18
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| Subject: | Tail wire brace size |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Gherkins Tim-rp3420 <rp3420@freescale.com>
Will,
Good to hear from you. You want to get the 7X19 as it is easier to take a bend
around the small cable thimble. The 7X7 is much stiffer and will find it difficult
to make the bend around a 3/32" thimble radius. I can't help you on the
springs, I don't know. When do you visit the Phoenix area again?
Tim Gherkins
Firestar II
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of WillUribe@aol.com
Subject: Kolb-List: Tail wire brace size
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
Greetings Kolb fans,
I'm getting ready to replace the wire bracing on my tail because the cable
tangs are starting the wear into the thimbles. This morning before I departed
for Kansas City I looked at my drawings and they call for a 3/32" stainless
steel cable. The question I have is it 3/32" 7X7 or 3/32"7X19 stainless steel
cable?
Also, as long as I'm placing an order I will replace the muffler springs but
does the FireStar use the 72 mm or the 66 mm springs?
Thanks in advance,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX but working in Kansas City
FireStar II N4GU
C172 N2506U
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: re:kolb roll/Adverse Yaw |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 10:09 AM 9/26/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>Any idea how to overcome adverse yaw using other than trim tab on
>Kolbs?
>
>I don't necessarily like that huge rudder trim tab on my airplane, but
>it is the only solution I could find that worked. I tried off setting
>thrust line, off setting leading edge of vertical stabalizer, but only
>the trim tab will work for me.
>
>john h
I tried to leave some adjustment "right & left"
for the vertical stabilizer and up and down
for the horizontal.
Horizontal worked.
Right and left "vertical adjustment" didn't do anything.
Don't know why.
Trim tab on the rudder fixed it for me.
http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Adjstabil.jpg
Message 20
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| Subject: | Tail wire brace size |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
>
>I'm getting ready to replace the wire bracing on my tail because the cable
>tangs are starting the wear into the thimbles. This morning before
>I departed
>for Kansas City I looked at my drawings and they call for a 3/32" stainless
>steel cable. The question I have is it 3/32" 7X7 or 3/32"7X19
>stainless steel
>cable?
>
>Also, as long as I'm placing an order I will replace the muffler springs but
>does the FireStar use the 72 mm or the 66 mm springs?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Will Uribe
You mightlook into machine swaged tail ires with 1/2 turnbuckel
swaged into the ends since you already know the lengths on yours.
They are adjustable about an inch or 3/4 inch per wire. Lot of AP
have a swage machine.
http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Modtail&swagedwires.jpg
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Web Site - Fly In at Homer Kolb's |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Schnabel <tnfirestar2@yahoo.com>
George, excellent job on the web page!
do not archive
Mike S
Manchester TN
"George T. Alexander, Jr." <gtalexander@att.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George T. Alexander, Jr."
Kolb List:
Finally, after a little over 3 months, the web site covering the fly in at
Homer's place Fathers' Day Weekend has been published.
My personal thanks, and I'm I speak for all the people who attended, to
Clara, Homer, their son Marcus and his family, and the friends and neighbors
who pitched in to make it a memorable day. Also thanks to Terry Frantz for
his efforts in coordinating between the Kolbs and the participants.
Since there was such a positive response to the one from last year, I
decided to incorporate both year's material into one site.
I hope it is understandable as to how to maneuver your way around the site.
Go to http://gtalexander.home.att.net and click on the link "NE Kolb
Builder/Flyer/Admirer Gathering" to take you to the site.
I would welcome any comments that you might have.
George Alexander
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Tail wire brace size |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" <duesouth@govital.net>
Before you go replacing the wires making them the same as you did before
make them a bit shorter and now use a clevis to hold each cable to the tang.
The tangs remains permanently bolted on the tail post. When unfolding the
tail it is a lot easier to add a bolt and wing nut to the individual cable
wires than that one bastard that goes through the tail post and holds both
wires on. Your tail wires will also be a lot tighter. I use (used) this
method on mine and am (was) quite pleased with it. When you place your order
include 2 AN3 clevises (little horseshoe shaped thingies) and AN bolts and
wingnuts and safety pins for it.
> Greetings Kolb fans,
>
> I'm getting ready to replace the wire bracing on my tail because the cable
> tangs are starting the wear into the thimbles. This morning before I
departed
> for Kansas City I looked at my drawings and they call for a 3/32"
stainless
> steel cable. The question I have is it 3/32" 7X7 or 3/32"7X19 stainless
steel
> cable?
>
> Also, as long as I'm placing an order I will replace the muffler springs
but
> does the FireStar use the 72 mm or the 66 mm springs?
Message 23
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| Subject: | Firestar weight and balance info needed |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "jdmurr@juno.com" <jdmurr@juno.com>
I had purchased a 1987 Firestar and have been flying it for two months now. I
have not done a weight and balance on it because I weigh 25 pounds more than the
previous owner did. I do notice that at cruise and to a lesser degree at idle,
I need to keep my stick "bungeed" to keep back stick pressure to keep the
nose from falling.
I looked through the documentation and I can't find anything on how to check the
weight and balance. Does anyone have documentation needed for this? Moments,
etc? I think I'm nose-heavy, but I don't want to assume this. Where is the CG
range on the 1987 Firestar? Thanks!
John Murr
1987 Firestar
I had purchased a 1987 Firestar and have been flying it for two months now. I have
not done a weight and balance on it because I weigh 25 pounds more than the
previous owner did. I do notice that at cruise and to a lesser degree at idle,
I need to keep my stick "bungeed" to keep back stick pressure to keep the nose
from falling.
I looked through the documentation and I can't find anything on how to check the
weight and balance. Does anyone have documentation needed for this?Moments,
etc?I think I'm nose-heavy, but I don't want to assume this. Where is the CG range
on the 1987 Firestar? Thanks!
John Murr
1987 Firestar
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
Dennis and others,
I was amazed the bent nose took out the left pedal yaw. Sometimes things in life
work in your favor :)
Ralph
Original Firestar
18 years flying it
-- Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
<< During a hard landing years ago, the nose of my plane was shifted
slightly to the left. It's enough to counteract the yawing to the right and
having to use left rudder in cruise. >>
WOW, Ralph - What a great effect!
Prang your airplane ... fix the roll problem!
That's the first ever story I've heard where something got BETTER after
smacking your aircraft! Never happens to me that way. You must just live
right.
Dennis Kirby
do not archive
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
-- "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Morning Ralph B/Gang:
Let me see if I have this right. Prop wash hitting the right side of
the vertical stabilizer, in turn yaws the nose right?
Seems to me if the the prop wash was pushing on the rudder the same
direction as the vertical stabilizer, the rudder being a big trim tab
pushed to the right would counter act the vertical stabilizer.
Confusing, ain't it?
Take care,
john h
MKIII/912ULS
Titus, Alabama
John and all,
When the right rudder pedal is pushed, the plane yaws to the right ....right?
So, when the clockwise swirling tornado from the prop hits the right side of the
vert stab/rudder, it pushes the rudder to the right yawing the plane to the
right. Sorry John, you can't think about the rudder and elevator as "big" trim
tabs. That would be way too confusing my friend! :)
Ralph
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
....right? So, when the clockwise swirling tornado from the prop hits
the right side of the vert stab/rudder, it pushes the rudder to the
right yawing the plane to the right. Sorry John, you can't think about
the rudder and elevator as "big" trim tabs. That would be way too
confusing my friend! :)
|
| Ralph
Ralph/All:
Seems like when your tornado of swirling air hits the rudder from the
right, it would push the rudder (which is hinged) to the left and
counter act the push on the vertical stabilizer, reducing the amount
of yaw to the right.
Whether I understand it or not, I got it figured out enough to fly
trimmed up on all three models of Kolbs I built and flew. 912 powered
aircraft rotate opposite the two strokes, thus the prop wash hits the
left side of the vertical stabilizer and rudder, pushing the nose of
the aircraft left. To help counteract this, I have a large, two rib
bay long, trim tab to help the prop wash push the rudder to the right
and counteract the prop wash. Works great.
john h
MKIII/912ULS
Titus, Alabama
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Hmmm........this could get interesting. I'll take everyone's word for the
direction of the propeller, since I don't have a Rotax. I'm familiar with
the idea of the "tornado" from the prop and all, and with the idea that if
it hits the right side of the vert stab, it'll push it to the *left*, yawing
the plane to the right. Never having previously thought about similar
effects on the rudder, it seems to me that that same tornado pushing on the
hinged rudder would push that rudder to the left as well, which would then
have it out in the air stream from forward motion of the plane, and have a
tendency to push the tail back to the right.....right ?? So, how much yaw
would you have left (??) over ?? :-) This is mostly, but not completely,
tongue in cheek. Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
>
>
> -- "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> Morning Ralph B/Gang:
>
> Let me see if I have this right. Prop wash hitting the right side of
> the vertical stabilizer, in turn yaws the nose right?
>
> Seems to me if the the prop wash was pushing on the rudder the same
> direction as the vertical stabilizer, the rudder being a big trim tab
> pushed to the right would counter act the vertical stabilizer.
> Confusing, ain't it?
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> MKIII/912ULS
> Titus, Alabama
>
> John and all,
>
> When the right rudder pedal is pushed, the plane yaws to the right
> ....right? So, when the clockwise swirling tornado from the prop hits the
> right side of the vert stab/rudder, it pushes the rudder to the right
> yawing the plane to the right. Sorry John, you can't think about the
> rudder and elevator as "big" trim tabs. That would be way too confusing my
> friend! :)
>
> Ralph
>
>
> Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
> Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
I ain't buying it.
It might push the vertical stab to the left, because it is hitting the
vertical stab on the right. OK. That much of the premise I will buy.
But - If it is also hitting the right side of the rudder, (as it
apparently does to the vertical stab - pushing it left - and this is the
assumption we are working on - ) would it not also be pushing the rudder to
the left? How could it not?
Seems to me that whatever pushes the vertical stab to the left likewise
pushes the rudder to the left? And that left rudder deflection would then
cause a left yaw? (Counteracting any right yaw caused by the vortex hitting
the right side of the vertical fin)
The ball is in your court. Go for it.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
At 02:40 AM 9/27/05 +0000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
>
>John and all,
>
>When the right rudder pedal is pushed, the plane yaws to the right
>....right? So, when the clockwise swirling tornado from the prop hits the
>right side of the vert stab/rudder, it pushes the rudder to the right
>yawing the plane to the right. Sorry John, you can't think about the
>rudder and elevator as "big" trim tabs. That would be way too confusing my
>friend! :)
>
>Ralph
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 11:07 PM 9/26/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
>
>Hmmm........this could get interesting. I'll take everyone's word for the
>direction of the propeller, since I don't have a Rotax. I'm familiar with
>the idea of the "tornado" from the prop and all, and with the idea that if
>it hits the right side of the vert stab, it'll push it to the *left*, yawing
>the plane to the right.
Don't worry about things that will never happen & you will be a lot
happier in life.
>Never having previously thought about similar
>effects on the rudder, it seems to me that that same tornado pushing on the
>hinged rudder would push that rudder to the left as well, which would then
>have it out in the air stream from forward motion of the plane, and have a
>tendency to push the tail back to the right.....right ??
Right
>So, how much yaw
>would you have left (??) over ??
Right
> Lar.
>Do not Archive.
>
>Larry Bourne
Message 30
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| Subject: | Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
Folks,
If the rudder is being pushed to any given side by the wind gusts or prop
wash then it isn't going to put any aero forces on the plane because it is
being pushed into alignment with the wind, not being pushed out into the
wind. The wind is crooked locally because of the prop wash and if the
rudder lines up with the wind then you would not get any forces on it.
In reality people often fly with their feet on the pedals and hold the
rudder more or less straight unless they want to turn. (These forces are
fairly small just look at the small little trim tab that can correct for
them.) With your feet on the pedals the rudder doesn't move out in line with
the wind, and it does indeed act just like part of the vertical stabilizer,
and does contribute to any yaw caused by the prop wash in the same direction
as the stabilizer.
Flying without your feet on the pedals in many planes, including Kolbs,
significantly reduces lateral stability since they have fairly small
vertical stabs and fairly large rudders (especially after accounting for the
additional moment arm of the rudder.) The difference between these levels
of stability is referred to control fixed versus control free stability. The
same applies to the elevators; flying without the stick being held reduces
longitudinal stability significantly.
Christopher Armstrong
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar weight and balance info needed |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 09:48 PM 9/26/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "jdmurr@juno.com" <jdmurr@juno.com>
>
>I had purchased a 1987 Firestar and have been flying it for two
>months now. I have not done a weight and balance on it because I
>weigh 25 pounds more than the previous owner did. I do notice that
>at cruise and to a lesser degree at idle, I need to keep my stick
>"bungeed" to keep back stick pressure to keep the nose from falling.
>I looked through the documentation and I can't find anything on how
>to check the weight and balance. Does anyone have documentation
>needed for this? Moments, etc? I think I'm nose-heavy, but I don't
>want to assume this. Where is the CG range on the 1987 Firestar? Thanks!
>John Murr
>1987 Firestar
"Well ya see John, it's like this...
A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when
the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are
killed first- the ones that "bungeed" back the stick pressure..
This natural selection is good for the Kolb herd as a whole,
because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by
the regular killing of the weakest members - we call them "yearlings".
"In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as
the slowest brain cells.
Excessive intake of alcohol, as we all know, kills brain cells, but
naturally it
attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular
consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a
faster and more efficient machine
...and that's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.
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