---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/27/05: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:36 AM - Trim Tabs and other nonsense (Edward Steuber) 2. 04:55 AM - Re: Kolb roll (pat ladd) 3. 05:22 AM - Re: Kolb roll (robert bean) 4. 06:26 AM - nose drop (Ted Cowan) 5. 07:10 AM - Re: nose drop (Christopher Armstrong) 6. 07:12 AM - weight and balance (Christopher Armstrong) 7. 07:47 AM - Re: nose drop (Larry Bourne) 8. 07:51 AM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Jeremy Casey) 9. 08:06 AM - Re: nose drop (ray anderson) 10. 08:24 AM - Re: nose drop (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 11. 08:48 AM - Re: nose drop (Jack B. Hart) 12. 09:06 AM - Roll Trim OMT (PENGUIN) 13. 10:08 AM - Tails and trim (Christopher Armstrong) 14. 10:45 AM - Re: nose drop (ray anderson) 15. 02:56 PM - Re: weight and balance (woody) 16. 03:34 PM - Re: weight and balance (jdmurr@juno.com) 17. 04:24 PM - List Protocol or Expediting the List or Learning to Cut the Referenced Post (John Hauck) 18. 04:28 PM - Titan Exhaust Sytem Tube Failures (John Hauck) 19. 04:56 PM - Re: List Protocol or Expediting the List or Learning to Cut the Referenced Post (ray anderson) 20. 05:16 PM - Re: weight and balance (robert bean) 21. 05:24 PM - Re: weight and balance (Larry Bourne) 22. 05:34 PM - Re: List Protocol or Expediting the List or Learning to Cut the Referenced Post (Kirk Smith) 23. 05:34 PM - Re: weight and balance (John Hauck) 24. 05:37 PM - Re: List Protocol or Expediting the List or Learning to Cut the Referenced Post (Kirk Smith) 25. 06:53 PM - Re: weight and balance (Larry Bourne) 26. 07:05 PM - Voting Rant; was Re: List Protocol or Expediting the List (Charlie England) 27. 07:06 PM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Ralph) 28. 07:46 PM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Christopher Armstrong) 29. 07:52 PM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Ralph) 30. 07:52 PM - Re: Titan Exhaust Sytem Tube Failures (Beauford) 31. 07:55 PM - Re: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects (Ralph) 32. 08:03 PM - Sport pilot question (Lanny Fetterman) 33. 09:25 PM - Customer Notice: Your Account In eBay [Sun, 06 Sep 2009 16:33:21 +0300] (eBay Inc) 34. 09:38 PM - Re: weight and balance (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com) 35. 09:38 PM - Re: Firestar weight and balance info needed (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:17 AM PST US From: "Edward Steuber" Subject: Kolb-List: Trim Tabs and other nonsense --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber" Kolbers, I gotta jump in on this one...The rudder trim is easily fixed by the same bungee type solution that you all use on the elevator...just shorten the rudder spring in the direction you want the nose to go.... The wing heavy problem when solo in a side-by-side aircraft can be solved by simply sliding your butt over to the centerline provided you don't have a flap handle or trim mechanism betwween the seats. Works best with bench seats as in Luscombs or Chiefs ....etc...or homebuilts ....Then you just use the outside rudder pedals of each set of rudders provided there are two sets...If you have long legs like I do , the extra length is great on long trips. Also good for visibility left and right and forward and back....like flying a fat tandem. The seat belts work the same way but use the inside set... If you really want to get rid of the trim problem with the ailerons , just make new fittings for the wing attach where the wing folds and offset the holes so you can change the angle of attack of each wing....heavy wing leading edge needs to go up.....My ultrastar had a heavy wing but by modifying the square tube that attaches to the cage at the wing spar it can be achieved and still fold the wing as long as you only move the hole a little on each side....one up ...one down... An old friend back in the early 70's by the name of "Squeek" Hepler (EAA Hall of Fame) used to say...."you gotta use your noodle when working on planes".... he was referring to your brain but sometimes I wonder..... ED in Western NY do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:47 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb roll --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" it seems all Kolbs with props that turn clockwise want to bank to the left >> Hi All, I seem to remember seeing somewher that `real` airplanes were built with an offset tailfin to correct the circular motion of the propwash. Someone said that trim tabs had been used since Orville and Wilbur. They certainly didn`t use them on the rudder. They had twin engines and contra rotating props. Cheers Pat do not archive -- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:26 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb roll --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean If you want to see an extreme example of engine offset to counteract flight tendencies stand in front of an Aircoupe (Ercoupe). Looks like something is broken. My tailsection came with tab already installed on the rudder. By coincidence the previous 912 had the same rotation as my suzuki so I've never had to change a thing. -BB do not archive On 27, Sep 2005, at 7:55 AM, pat ladd wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" > > it seems all Kolbs with props that turn clockwise want to bank to the > left >>> > Hi All, > > I seem to remember seeing somewher that `real` airplanes were built > with an > offset tailfin to correct the circular motion of the propwash. > > Someone said that trim tabs had been used since Orville and Wilbur. > They > certainly didn`t use them on the rudder. They had twin engines and > contra > rotating props. > > Cheers > > Pat > do not archive > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:01 AM PST US From: Ted Cowan Subject: Kolb-List: nose drop --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan Just wanted to add my two cents. When I was flying my good ole original firestar, I could reach out with my left hand and place it against the fabric on the left outside. I could litterly make a half a canard out of it. I was amased at how just a little deflection could move the nose up or down or twist it left or right. Try it. Why not make a small canard on each side for deflection, each separate control, to manipulate your down left slide. Bet it would work. Dont have that problem with the Sling Shot. Must have screwed something up cause it will fly hands off at cruise most of the time. I have the engine aligned for torque with washers. I placed a couple washers under the mount on the left front. that keeps the engine from dumping to the left. (this info was also furnished by John Hawk when he visited me during building and installation) By the way, the theory of dead or dying brain cells cause of booze dont fly. Was a boozer for a long time and I swear, only the strong cells died. The weak ones survived!! Ted Cowan, Alabama ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:09 AM PST US From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: nose drop --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" The place to correct for trim in any axis is where you get the correction for the least amount of drag. You have to test each option to see which cost you the most in cruise speed. Usually the least amount of deflection on the biggest movable surface is the least amount of drag. A large deflection on a small surface is usually high drag. Moving the wing with the adjustable bracket probably has the least drag. Moving the whole stab is probably next. Moving the control surface with a bungee or trim tab is probably next. Adding a little control surface at a shorter moment arm and deflecting it a lot will be the least efficient. Christopher Armstrong -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Cowan Subject: Kolb-List: nose drop --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan Just wanted to add my two cents. When I was flying my good ole original firestar, I could reach out with my left hand and place it against the fabric on the left outside. I could litterly make a half a canard out of it. I was amased at how just a little deflection could move the nose up or down or twist it left or right. Try it. Why not make a small canard on each side for deflection, each separate control, to manipulate your down left slide. Bet it would work. Dont have that problem with the Sling Shot. Must have screwed something up cause it will fly hands off at cruise most of the time. I have the engine aligned for torque with washers. I placed a couple washers under the mount on the left front. that keeps the engine from dumping to the left. (this info was also furnished by John Hawk when he visited me during building and installation) By the way, the theory of dead or dying brain cells cause of booze dont fly. Was a boozer for a long time and I swear, only the strong cells died. The weak ones survived!! Ted Cowan, Alabama ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:55 AM PST US From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: Kolb-List: weight and balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" Anyone flying a plane without personally performing a correct weight an balance should stop flying immediately and drink beer until they are smart enough to do a weight and balance. It is ridiculous to not do this. You take three weights, and do some very simple math that includes only multiplication, addition and division. There is no excuse to not do a proper weight and balance, using accurate scales. It is only your life you are risking... so no big loss I guess! Do not archive Christopher Armstrong ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:04 AM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: nose drop --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" I was, too, Ted, but I think I lost most of both types. :-) Lar. 19 years dry now. Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk III N78LB Vamoose www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Cowan" Subject: Kolb-List: nose drop > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan > By the way, the theory of > dead or dying brain cells cause of booze dont fly. Was a boozer for a > long > time and I swear, only the strong cells died. The weak ones survived!! > Ted > Cowan, Alabama > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:24 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Casey" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" The difference between these levels of stability is referred to control fixed versus control free stability. The same applies to the elevators; flying without the stick being held reduces longitudinal stability significantly. Christopher Armstrong _____________________________- Alright Topher...you've peaked my curiousity. RE: Control fixed versus control free. I understand what your saying about control free reducing stability due to the rudder/elevator not contributing to the stability of the plane if allowed to kinda flop around back there...makes good sense. What about planes with all flying stabilators (Titan, Europa, etc...) or all Flying rudders (CH601) or both (Jodel D18)...I have read somewhere that that is the reason for anti-servo tabs on stabilators...to give alittle mechanical stability by trying to move the surfaces back to the "fixed" or neutral position (terminology probably wrong...), but in the case of the CH601 I've never seen any kind of tab on the rudders of them...would that bird be fairly squirrelly if you took feet off the pedals or maybe the fuselage itself stabilizes??? Curious, Jeremy Casey ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:43 AM PST US From: ray anderson Subject: RE: Kolb-List: nose drop --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson To me it's a no brainer. In store bought aircraft, designed by competent, trained aeronautical engineers, FAA certified, from the lowly line of Aeroncas through the most expensive and sophisticated high end aircraft, the first line of compensation by the factories has always been trim tabs, either fixed or cockpit adjustable. Small, cheap. easily adjusted, efficient and FAA approved. What's the problem? Gimme a break, who's sweating over loss of cruise speed in a dirty airplane like our Kolbs and any other light airplane that could possibly be measured from the effect of a tiny strip of aluminum maybe 4-5 inches long and 1-2 inches wide. Do the guys flying Kolbs who have installed over a hundred strips of aluminum vortex generators on their wings, and all leaning into the direction of flight, report any loss of cruise speed, if it could even be measured. A heck a lot more drag than a couple of strips barely bent into the line of flight, that changes the angle of a control surface such a small amount it would be hard to detect with an inclinometer. Install and enjoy. Christopher Armstrong wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" The place to correct for trim in any axis is where you get the correction for the least amount of drag. You have to test each option to see which cost you the most in cruise speed. Usually the least amount of deflection on the biggest movable surface is the least amount of drag. A large deflection on a small surface is usually high drag. Moving the wing with the adjustable bracket probably has the least drag. Moving the whole stab is probably next. Moving the control surface with a bungee or trim tab is probably next. Adding a little control surface at a shorter moment arm and deflecting it a lot will be the least efficient. Christopher Armstrong -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Cowan Subject: Kolb-List: nose drop --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan Just wanted to add my two cents. When I was flying my good ole original firestar, I could reach out with my left hand and place it against the fabric on the left outside. I could litterly make a half a canard out of it. I was amased at how just a little deflection could move the nose up or down or twist it left or right. Try it. Why not make a small canard on each side for deflection, each separate control, to manipulate your down left slide. Bet it would work. Dont have that problem with the Sling Shot. Must have screwed something up cause it will fly hands off at cruise most of the time. I have the engine aligned for torque with washers. I placed a couple washers under the mount on the left front. that keeps the engine from dumping to the left. (this info was also furnished by John Hawk when he visited me during building and installation) By the way, the theory of dead or dying brain cells cause of booze dont fly. Was a boozer for a long time and I swear, only the strong cells died. The weak ones survived!! Ted Cowan, Alabama ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:07 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: nose drop --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Your right there shouldn't be much noticeable drag, but if I were having to glide to a safe landing point on a dead engine it might be of some significance. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- From: "ray anderson" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: nose drop > --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson > > To me it's a no brainer. In store bought aircraft, designed by competent, > trained aeronautical engineers, FAA certified, from the lowly line of > Aeroncas through the most expensive and sophisticated high end aircraft, > the first line of compensation by the factories has always been trim tabs, > either fixed or cockpit adjustable. Small, cheap. easily adjusted, > efficient and FAA approved. What's the problem? Gimme a break, who's > sweating over loss of cruise speed in a dirty airplane like our Kolbs and > any other light airplane that could possibly be measured from the effect > of a tiny strip of aluminum maybe 4-5 inches long and 1-2 inches wide. Do > the guys flying Kolbs who have installed over a hundred strips of aluminum > vortex generators on their wings, and all leaning into the direction of > flight, report any loss of cruise speed, if it could even be measured. A > heck a lot more drag than a couple of strips barely bent into the line of > flight, that changes the angle of a control su! > rface > such a small amount it would be hard to detect with an inclinometer. > Install and enjoy. > > Christopher Armstrong wrote: --> Kolb-List > message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" > > The place to correct for trim in any axis is where you get the correction > for the least amount of drag. You have to test each option to see which > cost > you the most in cruise speed. Usually the least amount of deflection on > the > biggest movable surface is the least amount of drag. A large deflection on > a small surface is usually high drag. Moving the wing with the adjustable > bracket probably has the least drag. Moving the whole stab is probably > next. Moving the control surface with a bungee or trim tab is probably > next. Adding a little control surface at a shorter moment arm and > deflecting it a lot will be the least efficient. > > Christopher Armstrong > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Cowan > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: nose drop > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan > > Just wanted to add my two cents. When I was flying my good ole original > firestar, I could reach out with my left hand and place it against the > fabric on the left outside. I could litterly make a half a canard out of > it. I was amased at how just a little deflection could move the nose up or > down or twist it left or right. Try it. Why not make a small canard on > each side for deflection, each separate control, to manipulate your down > left slide. Bet it would work. Dont have that problem with the Sling Shot. > > Must have screwed something up cause it will fly hands off at cruise most > of > > the time. I have the engine aligned for torque with washers. I placed a > couple washers under the mount on the left front. that keeps the engine > from dumping to the left. (this info was also furnished by John Hawk when > he visited me during building and installation) By the way, the theory of > dead or dying brain cells cause of booze dont fly. Was a boozer for a long > time and I swear, only the strong cells died. The weak ones survived!! Ted > > Cowan, Alabama > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:54 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: nose drop --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" Ray, If you are weight, fuel capacity and horsepower limited/restricted, and you want to cross country, then the drag reduction way is the only way to go. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN At 08:05 AM 9/27/05 -0700, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson > >To me it's a no brainer. In store bought aircraft, designed by competent, trained aeronautical engineers, FAA certified, from the lowly line of Aeroncas through the most expensive and sophisticated high end aircraft, the first line of compensation by the factories has always been trim tabs, either fixed or cockpit adjustable. Small, cheap. easily adjusted, efficient and FAA approved. What's the problem? Gimme a break, who's sweating over loss of cruise speed in a dirty airplane like our Kolbs and any other light airplane that could possibly be measured from the effect of a tiny strip of aluminum maybe 4-5 inches long and 1-2 inches wide. Do the guys flying Kolbs who have installed over a hundred strips of aluminum vortex generators on their wings, and all leaning into the direction of flight, report any loss of cruise speed, if it could even be measured. A heck a lot more drag than a couple of strips barely bent into the line of flight, that changes the angle of a control s! u! > rface > such a small amount it would be hard to detect with an inclinometer. Install and enjoy. > >Christopher Armstrong wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" > >The place to correct for trim in any axis is where you get the correction >for the least amount of drag. You have to test each option to see which cost >you the most in cruise speed. Usually the least amount of deflection on the >biggest movable surface is the least amount of drag. A large deflection on >a small surface is usually high drag. Moving the wing with the adjustable >bracket probably has the least drag. Moving the whole stab is probably >next. Moving the control surface with a bungee or trim tab is probably >next. Adding a little control surface at a shorter moment arm and >deflecting it a lot will be the least efficient. > >Christopher Armstrong > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Cowan >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kolb-List: nose drop > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan > >Just wanted to add my two cents. When I was flying my good ole original >firestar, I could reach out with my left hand and place it against the >fabric on the left outside. I could litterly make a half a canard out of >it. I was amased at how just a little deflection could move the nose up or >down or twist it left or right. Try it. Why not make a small canard on >each side for deflection, each separate control, to manipulate your down >left slide. Bet it would work. Dont have that problem with the Sling Shot. > >Must have screwed something up cause it will fly hands off at cruise most of > >the time. I have the engine aligned for torque with washers. I placed a >couple washers under the mount on the left front. that keeps the engine >from dumping to the left. (this info was also furnished by John Hawk when >he visited me during building and installation) By the way, the theory of >dead or dying brain cells cause of booze dont fly. Was a boozer for a long >time and I swear, only the strong cells died. The weak ones survived!! Ted > >Cowan, Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:06 AM PST US From: PENGUIN Subject: Kolb-List: Roll Trim OMT --> Kolb-List message posted by: PENGUIN To review: The original statement: The problem that remains is the plane wanting to bank left, I have to fly with constant "right stick", the problem is not severe but annoying at least. Trim tabs vs wing shims brought this: Don't mean to be argumentive but it seems to me, raising the edge of the entire wing will create more drag than a 4-5 inch strip of aluminum as a trim tab. Followed by this from Christopher Armstrong: The place to correct for trim in any axis is where you get the correction for the least amount of drag. You have to test each option to see which cost you the most in cruise speed. ====================== Now I'm REALLY confused (though my wife claims this ain't too hard to do). Your sweet little Kolb has a constant left bank. Whether caused by a heavy left wing, mis-alignment of some flying surface, or the mischeivious Kolb gremlins, the aircraft is always wanting to bank left. You can cure this by adding a little drag - an aileron trim tab or changing the AOA of the wing a tiny bit. You add just enough drag to take out the left bank. Now, it seems to me if you add just enough drag to take out the bank, it doesn't matter whether you use a big surface altered a tiny bit or a small surface altered a visible amount - it is the same amount of drag. Why would cruise speed be different between a big surface and a small surface providing an equal amount of drag to correct a trim problem? (And then there is the matter of parasite drag increasing as speed increases - which changes trim again - acch!) More beer! Penguin ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:56 AM PST US From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: Kolb-List: Tails and trim --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" The key is that all moving tails are aerodynamically balanced about their hinge line, with approximately the same amount of control surface (aerodynamic effectiveness wise not area wise) in front of and behind the pivot point. They fly in the wind with out a tendency to rotate about their pivot point when well designed. Anti-servo tabs can be used to help balance a control surface if a high lift airfoil is used that has its center of lift move from the 1/4 chord with angle of attack making it hard to balance over the range of control surface deflection, or you can use anti-servo tabs simply to modify the stick forces on any control surface if the plane is big enough that the controls get real heavy. They are simply trim tabs that move as the control is moved. Yes. I can't imagine a simpler way to trim out minor rigging errors then trim tabs (or as most of the RV guys do a wedge which some people think looks better then a trim tab and is less likely to get bumped out of adjustment or snag or cut somebody as they walk by.) If the trim tab gets really big and ugly then the rigging of the plane is bad enough that other methods are worth looking into. Christopher Armstrong -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Casey Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" The difference between these levels of stability is referred to control fixed versus control free stability. The same applies to the elevators; flying without the stick being held reduces longitudinal stability significantly. Christopher Armstrong _____________________________- Alright Topher...you've peaked my curiousity. RE: Control fixed versus control free. I understand what your saying about control free reducing stability due to the rudder/elevator not contributing to the stability of the plane if allowed to kinda flop around back there...makes good sense. What about planes with all flying stabilators (Titan, Europa, etc...) or all Flying rudders (CH601) or both (Jodel D18)...I have read somewhere that that is the reason for anti-servo tabs on stabilators...to give alittle mechanical stability by trying to move the surfaces back to the "fixed" or neutral position (terminology probably wrong...), but in the case of the CH601 I've never seen any kind of tab on the rudders of them...would that bird be fairly squirrelly if you took feet off the pedals or maybe the fuselage itself stabilizes??? Curious, Jeremy Casey ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:07 AM PST US From: ray anderson Subject: RE: Kolb-List: nose drop --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson My point to all of my mail is simply this. Unless we are talking about humongous misalignment of control surfaces, wings, etc. the amount of trim correction should be minuscule. I would bet my last dollar that if we are talking about the average trim needed, if corrected by a small trim tab, you cannot detect a difference in speed before and after correcting. Make this quick and dirty test to check my point. Instead of a permanent tab, just put a bungee cord around the stick to pull gently in the direction needed to get straight and level, hands off flight. Check your speed in calm air. move the bungee to go back to the original condition of out of trim. Check the speed again. Repeat this two or three times and I'll lay a bet you won't see any difference in speed. Unless the drift or turn is enormous, just the faintest movement of a conrtol surface, in normal calm air, will make a noticable change in direction of any normal aircraft. This tiny shift in the control surface isn't going to create drag that you can detect. Run the test. "Jack B. Hart" wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" Ray, If you are weight, fuel capacity and horsepower limited/restricted, and you want to cross country, then the drag reduction way is the only way to go. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN At 08:05 AM 9/27/05 -0700, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson > >To me it's a no brainer. In store bought aircraft, designed by competent, trained aeronautical engineers, FAA certified, from the lowly line of Aeroncas through the most expensive and sophisticated high end aircraft, the first line of compensation by the factories has always been trim tabs, either fixed or cockpit adjustable. Small, cheap. easily adjusted, efficient and FAA approved. What's the problem? Gimme a break, who's sweating over loss of cruise speed in a dirty airplane like our Kolbs and any other light airplane that could possibly be measured from the effect of a tiny strip of aluminum maybe 4-5 inches long and 1-2 inches wide. Do the guys flying Kolbs who have installed over a hundred strips of aluminum vortex generators on their wings, and all leaning into the direction of flight, report any loss of cruise speed, if it could even be measured. A heck a lot more drag than a couple of strips barely bent into the line of flight, that changes the angle of a control s! u! > rface > such a small amount it would be hard to detect with an inclinometer. Install and enjoy. > >Christopher Armstrong wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" > >The place to correct for trim in any axis is where you get the correction >for the least amount of drag. You have to test each option to see which cost >you the most in cruise speed. Usually the least amount of deflection on the >biggest movable surface is the least amount of drag. A large deflection on >a small surface is usually high drag. Moving the wing with the adjustable >bracket probably has the least drag. Moving the whole stab is probably >next. Moving the control surface with a bungee or trim tab is probably >next. Adding a little control surface at a shorter moment arm and >deflecting it a lot will be the least efficient. > >Christopher Armstrong > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Cowan >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kolb-List: nose drop > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan > >Just wanted to add my two cents. When I was flying my good ole original >firestar, I could reach out with my left hand and place it against the >fabric on the left outside. I could litterly make a half a canard out of >it. I was amased at how just a little deflection could move the nose up or >down or twist it left or right. Try it. Why not make a small canard on >each side for deflection, each separate control, to manipulate your down >left slide. Bet it would work. Dont have that problem with the Sling Shot. > >Must have screwed something up cause it will fly hands off at cruise most of > >the time. I have the engine aligned for torque with washers. I placed a >couple washers under the mount on the left front. that keeps the engine >from dumping to the left. (this info was also furnished by John Hawk when >he visited me during building and installation) By the way, the theory of >dead or dying brain cells cause of booze dont fly. Was a boozer for a long >time and I swear, only the strong cells died. The weak ones survived!! Ted > >Cowan, Alabama > > --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:03 PM PST US From: "woody" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight and balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" Here Here. I agree whole heartedly with the need for a weight and balance and not just when you build the plane. The folks that went to the homecoming noticed me walking around with crutches. I believe that was a result of a weight and balance issue. The engine failure pointed this out to me. When I did my weight and balance I weighed 210 lbs. At the time of the crash I weighed 185..... that is a 25 lb weight difference. I hadn't even thought of that. Amazing what a short stay at a medical facility will get you thinking about. I also swapped out the wood prop for a warp drive. All this tended to push the cg to the tail. In flight under power the high engine compensated for the light nose. When that engine got quiet there was no more force down on the nose and I entered the realm of no controls. Do a weight and balance even if you have to buy 3 bathroom scales at yard sales. It may save your life. I learned the hard way. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: Kolb-List: weight and balance > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" > > Anyone flying a plane without personally performing a correct weight an > balance should stop flying immediately and drink beer until they are smart > enough to do a weight and balance. > > It is ridiculous to not do this. You take three weights, and do some very > simple math that includes only multiplication, addition and division. There > is no excuse to not do a proper weight and balance, using accurate scales. > > It is only your life you are risking... so no big loss I guess! > > Do not archive > > Christopher Armstrong > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:14 PM PST US From: "jdmurr@juno.com" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight and balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jdmurr@juno.com" I weighed 210 when I bought the plane. Got down to 200, now back up to 205. My target is (was) 185. Maybe I should leave well enough alone and have some pizza and beer! Thanks Woody! Q: Why can't I just use one scale and weigh all three wheels independently? -- "woody" wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" Here Here. I agree whole heartedly with the need for a weight and balance and not just when you build the plane. The folks that went to the homecoming noticed me walking around with crutches. I believe that was a result of a weight and balance issue. The engine failure pointed this out to me. When I did my weight and balance I weighed 210 lbs. At the time of the crash I weighed 185..... that is a 25 lb weight difference. I hadn't even thought of that. Amazing what a short stay at a medical facility will get you thinking about. I also swapped out the wood prop for a warp drive. All this tended to push the cg to the tail. In flight under power the high engine compensated for the light nose. When that engine got quiet there was no more force down on the nose and I entered the realm of no controls. Do a weight and balance even if you have to buy 3 bathroom scales at yard sales. It may save your life. I learned the hard way. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: Kolb-List: weight and balance > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" > > Anyone flying a plane without personally performing a correct weight an > balance should stop flying immediately and drink beer until they are smart > enough to do a weight and balance. > > It is ridiculous to not do this. You take three weights, and do some very > simple math that includes only multiplication, addition and division. There > is no excuse to not do a proper weight and balance, using accurate scales. > > It is only your life you are risking... so no big loss I guess! > > Do not archive > > Christopher Armstrong > > > -- > > I weighed 210 when I bought the plane. Got down to 200, now back up to 205. My target is (was) 185. Maybe I should leave well enough alone and have some pizza and beer! Thanks Woody! Q: Why can't I just use one scale and weigh all three wheels independently? --"woody"duesouth@govital.netwrote: --Kolb-Listmessagepostedby:"woody"duesouth@govital.net HereHere. Iagreewholeheartedlywiththeneedforaweightandbalanceandnot justwhenyoubuildtheplane.Thefolksthatwenttothehomecomingnoticed mewalkingaroundwithcrutches.Ibelievethatwasaresultofaweightand balanceissue.Theenginefailurepointedthisouttome.WhenIdidmy weightandbalanceIweighed210lbs.AtthetimeofthecrashIweighed 185.....thatisa25lbweightdifference.Ihadn'teventhoughtofthat. Amazingwhatashortstayatamedicalfacilitywillgetyouthinkingabout. Ialsoswappedoutthewoodpropforawarpdrive.Allthistendedtopush thecgtothetail.Inflightunderpowerthehighenginecompensatedfor thelightnose.Whenthatenginegotquiettherewasnomoreforcedownon thenoseandIenteredtherealmofnocontrols.Doaweightandbalance evenifyouhavetobuy3bathroomscalesatyardsales.Itmaysaveyour life.Ilearnedthehardway.
-----OriginalMessage----- From:"ChristopherArmstrong"tophera@centurytel.net To:kolb-list@matronics.com Subject:Kolb-List:weightandbalance --Kolb-Listmessagepostedby:"ChristopherArmstrong" tophera@centurytel.net Anyoneflyingaplanewithoutpersonallyperformingacorrectweightan balanceshouldstopflyingimmediatelyanddrinkbeeruntiltheyaresmart enoughtodoaweightandbalance. Itisridiculoustonotdothis.Youtakethreeweights,anddosomevery simplemaththatincludesonlymultiplication,additionanddivision. There isnoexcusetonotdoaproperweightandbalance,usingaccuratescales. Itisonlyyourlifeyouarerisking...sonobiglossIguess! Donotarchive ChristopherArmstrong -- hmuchmore: ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:50 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: List Protocol or Expediting the List or Learning to Cut the Referenced Post --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Gang: Just got home from the big city of Birmingham, Alabama, where I spent the day at the UAB School of Dentistry. A cheaper way to go after Uncle Sam took the retired military's dental care away and left us poor retired GI's with no dental insurance. Anyhow, being a little bushed, was wondering if we could learn to cut the majority of the referenced msg we are replying to, leaving a phrase or sentence to let the other couple hundred folks on the List know what we are replying to. Would make reading the List traffic a whole heap better. Save a lot more time for building and flying, and napping. If, by chance, you don't know how to hi-light what you want to cut and hit the space bar to magically make it disappear, one of the computer guru's on the Kolb List will probably volunteer to give you some one on one instruction. It is so simple, even I can do it. Also, please pay attention to the subject line, so we can find stuff in the archives when we need to. And don't forget to use "DO NOT ARCHIVE" if what we are sending does not warrant sending to the archives for posterity. Last but not least. I am one among many. Simply, with the emphasis on simple, another Lister. I am not nor would I want to be the "hall monitor" or "list monitor". That is Matt Dralle's function. Just trying to help get us lined up a bit to save a little time. When you get as old as Ray Anderson and the Grey Baron, you will understand the value of time. What I have tried to say is a quasi regurgitation of what Matt sends out to the List each month, the List Commandmants. Take care, john h MKIII/912ULS DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:51 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Titan Exhaust Sytem Tube Failures --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Folks: Just got a call from John Williamson in Arlington, Tx. He just arrived home from the Kolb Homecoming. He wanted to share with me the fact that he had lost the number three exhaust tube while over a large man eating swamp in Louisiana. This is also the same pipe I lost between Santa Rosa and Albuquerque, NM, last May. Fractured in the same spot mine did, at the aft edge of the Rotax stub where it is expanded to give the pipe clamp something to push on. Thought you all might want to take a look at yours, if so equipped. Both our tubes had had partial fractures for some time prior to complete failure. However, it is impossible to catch on a preflight because it fractures under the clamp. Take care, john h MKIII/912ULS ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:59 PM PST US From: ray anderson Subject: Re: Kolb-List: List Protocol or Expediting the List or Learning to Cut the Referenced Post --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson Thanks John for the reminder. I'm sure guilty as well as others. Ray UltraStar, Tenn. John Hauck wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Gang: Anyhow, being a little bushed, was wondering if we could learn to cut the majority of the referenced msg we are replying to, leaving a phrase or sentence to let the other couple hundred folks on the List know what we are replying to. And don't forget to use "DO NOT ARCHIVE" if what we are sending does not warrant sending to the archives for posterity. john h MKIII/912ULS DO NOT ARCHIVE --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:57 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight and balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean > Q: Why can't I just use one scale and weigh all three wheels > independently? > You certainly can, but it's a pain. I have an old Howe beam balance that I used for my original W&B in that manner. Shim up one wheel to level, move to the other. It was quite accurate but extremely tiring. Recently I did it again with cheapo Kmart bathroom scales. -So cheap in fact that I had to put a little piece of plywood on them so they wouldn't oilcan from the single point depression imposed by each tyre (there ya go Pat). I subtracted the imaginary weight of the plywood in each case. It worked but the accuracy is a little questionable. My back suffered even using a lever to lift each wheel. -BB do not..... nah, go ahead and archive this'n ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:17 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight and balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" You can, but be sure to measure how high the scale platform is above the ground, and block the opposite wheel up to match it. Raise the tail the same amount. Lar. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk III N78LB Vamoose www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight and balance > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jdmurr@juno.com" > > I weighed 210 when I bought the plane. Got down to 200, now back up to > 205. My target is (was) 185. Maybe I should leave well enough alone and > have some pizza and beer! > Thanks Woody! > Q: Why can't I just use one scale and weigh all three wheels > independently? > > > -- "woody" wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" > > Here Here. > I agree whole heartedly with the need for a weight and balance and not > just when you build the plane. The folks that went to the homecoming > noticed > me walking around with crutches. I believe that was a result of a weight > and > balance issue. The engine failure pointed this out to me. When I did my > weight and balance I weighed 210 lbs. At the time of the crash I weighed > 185..... that is a 25 lb weight difference. I hadn't even thought of that. > Amazing what a short stay at a medical facility will get you thinking > about. > I also swapped out the wood prop for a warp drive. All this tended to push > the cg to the tail. In flight under power the high engine compensated for > the light nose. When that engine got quiet there was no more force down on > the nose and I entered the realm of no controls. Do a weight and balance > even if you have to buy 3 bathroom scales at yard sales. It may save your > life. I learned the hard way. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Armstrong" > To: > Subject: Kolb-List: weight and balance > > >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" > >> >> Anyone flying a plane without personally performing a correct weight an >> balance should stop flying immediately and drink beer until they are >> smart >> enough to do a weight and balance. >> >> It is ridiculous to not do this. You take three weights, and do some very >> simple math that includes only multiplication, addition and division. > There >> is no excuse to not do a proper weight and balance, using accurate >> scales. >> >> It is only your life you are risking... so no big loss I guess! >> >> Do not archive >> >> Christopher Armstrong >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > I weighed 210 when I bought the plane. Got down to 200, now back up to > 205. My target is (was) 185. Maybe I should leave well enough alone and > have some pizza and beer! > > > Thanks Woody! > > > Q: Why can't I just use one scale and weigh all three wheels > independently? > > > --"woody"duesouth@govital.netwrote: > --Kolb-Listmessagepostedby:"woody"duesouth@govital.net > > HereHere. > Iagreewholeheartedlywiththeneedforaweightandbalanceandnot > justwhenyoubuildtheplane.Thefolksthatwenttothehomecomingnoticed > mewalkingaroundwithcrutches.Ibelievethatwasaresultofaweightand > balanceissue.Theenginefailurepointedthisouttome.WhenIdidmy > weightandbalanceIweighed210lbs.AtthetimeofthecrashIweighed > 185.....thatisa25lbweightdifference.Ihadn'teventhoughtofthat. > Amazingwhatashortstayatamedicalfacilitywillgetyouthinkingabout. > Ialsoswappedoutthewoodpropforawarpdrive.Allthistendedtopush > thecgtothetail.Inflightunderpowerthehighenginecompensatedfor > thelightnose.Whenthatenginegotquiettherewasnomoreforcedownon > thenoseandIenteredtherealmofnocontrols.Doaweightandbalance > evenifyouhavetobuy3bathroomscalesatyardsales.Itmaysaveyour > life.Ilearnedthehardway.
> > > -----OriginalMessage----- > From:"ChristopherArmstrong"tophera@centurytel.net > To:kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject:Kolb-List:weightandbalance > > > --Kolb-Listmessagepostedby:"ChristopherArmstrong" > tophera@centurytel.net > > Anyoneflyingaplanewithoutpersonallyperformingacorrectweightan > balanceshouldstopflyingimmediatelyanddrinkbeeruntiltheyaresmart > enoughtodoaweightandbalance. > > Itisridiculoustonotdothis.Youtakethreeweights,anddosomevery > simplemaththatincludesonlymultiplication,additionanddivision. > There > isnoexcusetonotdoaproperweightandbalance,usingaccuratescales. > > Itisonlyyourlifeyouarerisking...sonobiglossIguess! > > Donotarchive > > ChristopherArmstrong > > > -- > > > hmuchmore: > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:01 PM PST US From: "Kirk Smith" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: List Protocol or Expediting the List or Learning to Cut the Referenced Post --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" > Uncle Sam took the retired military's dental care away and left us > poor retired GI's with no dental insurance. > > Anyhow, being a little bushed, was wondering if we could learn to cut > the majority of the referenced msg we are replying to, leaving a > phrase or sentence to let the other couple hundred folks on the List > know what we are replying to. Would make reading the List traffic a > whole heap better. Save a lot more time for building and flying, and > napping. > > If, by chance, you don't know how to hi-light what you want to cut and > hit the space bar to magically make it disappear, one of the computer > guru's on the Kolb List will probably volunteer to give you some one > on one instruction. It is so simple, even I can do it. > > Also, please pay attention to the subject line, so we can find stuff > in the archives when we need to. > > And don't forget to use "DO NOT ARCHIVE" if what we are sending does > not warrant sending to the archives for posterity. > > Last but not least. I am one among many. Simply, with the emphasis > on simple, another Lister. I am not nor would I want to be the "hall > monitor" or "list monitor". That is Matt Dralle's function. Just > trying to help get us lined up a bit to save a little time. When you > get as old as Ray Anderson and the Grey Baron, you will understand the > value of time. > > What I have tried to say is a quasi regurgitation of what Matt sends > out to the List each month, the List Commandmants. > > Take care, > > john h > MKIII/912ULS > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:13 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight and balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" above the | ground, and block the opposite wheel up to match it. Raise the tail the | same amount. Lar. Lar/Gang: And............make sure it is weighed in an environment of still air. A little puff of wind will make a big difference in your weight readout. john h MKIII/912ULS PS: Lar gets the prize for the longest regurgitated post. Looked like it might be about 72". ;-) ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:28 PM PST US From: "Kirk Smith" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: List Protocol or Expediting the List or Learning to Cut the Referenced Post --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" > Uncle Sam took the retired military's dental care away < I am ashamed of my government! No congressman, senator, or president goes without dental insurance. Even murderers on death row get free dental care. Makes me want to puke!!!!!!!!!!! Do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:41 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight and balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Now you're pickin' on me. I'm usually VERY careful about that..........and about Do not Archive. Lar. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk III N78LB Vamoose www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight and balance > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > above the > the > > > Lar/Gang: > > And............make sure it is weighed in an environment of still air. > A little puff of wind will make a big difference in your weight > readout. > > john h > MKIII/912ULS > > PS: Lar gets the prize for the longest regurgitated post. Looked > like it might be about 72". ;-) > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:05 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Voting Rant; was Re: Kolb-List: List Protocol or Expediting the List or Learning to Cut the Referenced Post --> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England Kirk Smith wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" > > > >>Uncle Sam took the retired military's dental care away < >> >> > >I am ashamed of my government! No congressman, senator, or president goes >without dental insurance. Even murderers on death row get free dental care. >Makes me want to puke!!!!!!!!!!! > > >Do not archive > At the risk of continuing an off-topic thread, I'd like everyone who feels the same to make note of who the people are that currently control the executive branch, both houses of the legislative branch and shortly, through appointments, the judicial branch of our government. Remember, Uncle Sam obeys the people we elect. We should call our Senators & Representatives & ask how they voted. This change, and many others like it, were made during the tenure of our current batch of leaders. I hope we will all weigh these facts against the ...umm... public relations... lines they feed us about 'supporting the troops' the next time we vote. In my not so humble opinion, the best way to support our troops is to provide them with proper & responsible leadership. Charlie ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:55 PM PST US From: "Ralph" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" Flying without your feet on the pedals in many planes, including Kolbs, significantly reduces lateral stability since they have fairly small vertical stabs and fairly large rudders (especially after accounting for the additional moment arm of the rudder.) The difference between these levels of stability is referred to control fixed versus control free stability. The same applies to the elevators; flying without the stick being held reduces longitudinal stability significantly. Christopher Armstrong I flew over a smokestack years ago without my feet on the rudder pedals. The thermal from the stack put the Firestar into a slow yaw oscillation that kept the wings swaying back and forth. The only way I got out of it was to pull the plane up into a stall. I figure the long tube flexed quite a bit and aided the oscillation. Ralph Original Firestar 18 years flying it Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:24 PM PST US From: "Christopher Armstrong" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" I flew over a smokestack years ago without my feet on the rudder pedals..... Ralph, Did you mean off the pedals? Christopher Armstrong Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:36 PM PST US From: "Ralph" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" Richard and others, My thinking about the rudder moving to the right when hit by the prop blast is this: Once it hits the right side v/stab/rudder, the faster air (slipstream air + prop blast) moves the tail to the left. The faster moving air on the right side initiates some lift which helps move the rudder to the right because it's hinged. I may be way off base on this. Some brain cells (the weaker ones) are gone due to life's hard knocks. The plane flies well and I know how to handle it, so I don't think too hard about this. Ralph Original Firestar 18 years flying it -- Richard Pike wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike I ain't buying it. It might push the vertical stab to the left, because it is hitting the vertical stab on the right. OK. That much of the premise I will buy. But - If it is also hitting the right side of the rudder, (as it apparently does to the vertical stab - pushing it left - and this is the assumption we are working on - ) would it not also be pushing the rudder to the left? How could it not? Seems to me that whatever pushes the vertical stab to the left likewise pushes the rudder to the left? And that left rudder deflection would then cause a left yaw? (Counteracting any right yaw caused by the vortex hitting the right side of the vertical fin) The ball is in your court. Go for it. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) At 02:40 AM 9/27/05 +0000, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" > >John and all, > >When the right rudder pedal is pushed, the plane yaws to the right >....right? So, when the clockwise swirling tornado from the prop hits the >right side of the vert stab/rudder, it pushes the rudder to the right >yawing the plane to the right. Sorry John, you can't think about the >rudder and elevator as "big" trim tabs. That would be way too confusing my >friend! :) > >Ralph Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:49 PM PST US From: "Beauford" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Titan Exhaust Sytem Tube Failures --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" Brother Hauck.. I keep telling you guys... those four-strokes are killers.... 447's are still available directly from the factory... Save yourselves...!!!! Beauford Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Titan Exhaust Sytem Tube Failures > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > Hi Folks: > > Just got a call from John Williamson in Arlington, Tx. He just > arrived home from the Kolb Homecoming. > > He wanted to share with me the fact that he had lost the number three > exhaust tube while over a large man eating swamp in Louisiana. This > is also the same pipe I lost between Santa Rosa and Albuquerque, NM, > last May. Fractured in the same spot mine did, at the aft edge of the > Rotax stub where it is expanded to give the pipe clamp something to > push on. > > Thought you all might want to take a look at yours, if so equipped. > Both our tubes had had partial fractures for some time prior to > complete failure. However, it is impossible to catch on a preflight > because it fractures under the clamp. > > Take care, > > john h > MKIII/912ULS > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:46 PM PST US From: "Ralph" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb roll/Prop Blast Effects --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" Ooooops, yes, I meant "off" the rudder pedals. Ralph -- "Christopher Armstrong" wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong" I flew over a smokestack years ago without my feet on the rudder pedals..... Ralph, Did you mean off the pedals? Christopher Armstrong Do Not Archive Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:36 PM PST US From: Lanny Fetterman Subject: Kolb-List: Sport pilot question --> Kolb-List message posted by: Lanny Fetterman Hi to all, I took and passed the sport pilot written test today. Now the chicken or the egg question. Do I N-number the F.S.II and then take the practical? Or do I take the practical then N-number the aircraft? If I understand things correctly, I must take the practical test in an N-numbered aircraft of the same type I am going to fly. However, I may not fly an N-Numbered aircraft until I have a sport pilot endorsement. Any insight on this would be a great help. Thanks in advance to anyone that responds to this question. Lanny Fetterman F.S. II #598 A.S.C. # A10LRF Do not archive ` P.S. Several of the questions I was asked, were NOT in the bank of 189 sport pilot questions that I downloaded to study for the test. Surprise, Surprise! ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:51 PM PST US FCC: mailbox://supprefnum6538878@ebay.com/Sent From: eBay Inc Subject: Customer Notice: Your Account In eBay [Sun, 06 Sep 2009 16:33:21 +0300] DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list - No Plain-Text Section --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:04 PM PST US From: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: weight and balance --> Kolb-List message posted by: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com In a message dated 9/27/2005 8:35:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, jhauck@elmore.rr.com writes: And............make sure it is weighed in an environment of still air. A little puff of wind will make a big difference in your weight readout. John H and others: AND--Also, aren't you supposed to have the tail up in the flying position? Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar Audubon NJ Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:04 PM PST US From: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar weight and balance info needed --> Kolb-List message posted by: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com In a message dated 9/26/2005 9:51:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, jdmurr@juno.com writes: I had purchased a 1987 Firestar. I have not done a weight and balance on it. I do notice that at cruise and to a lesser degree at idle, I need to keep my stick "bungeed" to keep back stick pressure to keep the nose from falling. I looked through the documentation and I can't find anything on how to check the weight and balance. Does anyone have documentation needed for this? Moments, etc? John Murr/Others I didn't see any one post an answer to the part of your question about "documentation". I bought an 87 (original) FireStar kit from Kolb in 89. There was no mention of doing a weight/balance in the builders manual, or plans set, and there was no datum reference to do so. I just built it per plans and flew it. The nose had a tendency to go down and turn left. I put a trim tab on the aileron to relieve the right stick force and stop the turning. As for the nose down condition, the stick force needed to hold the nose up is so slight, that I usually end up over correcting and climbing. Perhaps someday I will install an elevator trim tab to try to correct this. Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar 435 hours Audubon NJ Do Not Archive