Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:29 AM - Re: Re: Seat-of-the-Pants/No Instruments??? (GeoR38@aol.com)
2. 04:45 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (David Key)
3. 04:47 AM - Re: Seat of the pants (pat ladd)
4. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: Seat-of-the-Pants/No Instruments??? (Don Gherardini)
5. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (lucien stavenhagen)
6. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (snuffy@usol.com)
7. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (lucien stavenhagen)
8. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (Larry Bourne)
9. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (Jack B. Hart)
10. 08:08 AM - 912 Kill Switch & Ignition Wiring (c b)
11. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (snuffy@usol.com)
12. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (lucien stavenhagen)
13. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (pat ladd)
14. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (Kirk Smith)
15. 11:51 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (lucien stavenhagen)
16. 12:24 PM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (J W Hauck)
17. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (Kirk Smith)
18. 04:24 PM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
19. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (J carter)
20. 05:06 PM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (ray anderson)
21. 05:29 PM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (bryan green)
22. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (Jack B. Hart)
23. 06:02 PM - Flying without instruments??? (possums)
24. 06:10 PM - Special Kolb Christmas Message (Beauford)
25. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (Jack B. Hart)
26. 08:12 PM - 2005 List of Contributors (Update)... (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Seat-of-the-Pants/No Instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
OK Ray, I retract seat of the pants and substitute "elbow torque".
-however, I have been subjected to several minutes of "fill the pants"
flying in my lifetime. :)
do I detect a CLASSIC statement here?
Well, guys I know we are beating a dead horse at this stage but for some
reason, I cannot let this thought go unsaid.
I feel sorry for the poor lil EGT meter. It gets almost NO credit ...even
amongst such heavies as populate this list. And its absence has popped up and
bit us many, many times.... and we STILL don't give it proper praise. Its
absence on such early models as the Weedhopper and Pterodactyl which used many
Cuyuna engines, brought them down to mother earth like flies, on a chilly day.
And we said "those damn Cuyunas ought to be boat anchors." I know, I was one
of those brought down...at least 3 times. And I didn't learn a thing until I
was introduced to the EGT and squirrely wiles of 2 cycles when I upgraded to
Kolb Firestar..
It is my opinion that the lack of that instrument and the prolific use of 2
cycles in the early days and even today, has turned the reputation of Cuyuna
into .....hmmmm, ..... something really bad.
Of course the ASI is extremely important although I have flown a Pterodactyl
for months without one, but there again, just like the long EZE, it
wouldn't stall either, due to the variable angle of attack on the wing design
and
the fact that it was a canard.
just a thought, and a lil nudge for the importance of EGT ... especially on
2 cycles.
George Randolph
Firestar driver from The Villages, Fl
Rotax 447, 3 blade Ivo, KX, 1991
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" <dhkey@msn.com>
>From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Flying without instruments???
>Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:28:51 -0600
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> | Personally, if I were allowed one and only one flight instrument in
>my
>| airplane it'd be an altimeter. Altitude is the hardest to judge
>without a
>| gauge. The rest should only be nice to have in a light aircraft,
>and
>| _never_ essential for flight....
>|
>| JMHO,
>|
>| LS
>| N646F
>
>Hi LS/Gang:
>
>Reckon I'll have to disagree with this one too. ;-)
>
>Personally, I can see the ground a hell'uva lot easier than I can see
>stall speed. Stall speed is much more important than knowing how high
>I am, in my own humble opinion.
>
>Even is an air speed indicator is not calibrated accurately, it will
>always indicate the same stall speed, no matter what altitude.
>
>From my poor memory, most Kolb fatal accidents are the result of
>stalls low to the ground. Folks forget to cross check their airspeed
>indicators, or they rely on their "instincts" to keep them above stall
>speed. Very, very difficult to determine accurate airspeed by the
>seat of the pants, especially when turning down wind at very low
>altitudes.
>
>john h
>MKIII/912S
>hauck's holler, alabama
>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Seat of the pants |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
I have been subjected to several minutes of "fill the pants">>
Hi Ray,
that reminds me. In December 1972 while on holiday I flew at the Flying
Seminoles field in Florida. I had a check ride in a 2.33 and was waiting to
fly a1.26.
In the clubhouse there were a few old timers yarning about a particular
pilot they all knew. `I flew with him once` said one old guy `We came over
the hedge with the stall warning blaring. I was sitting behind him so I
leaned over his shoulder and pushed the stick forward. Hell, he sure was a
sloppy flyer`.
That glorious understatement `sloppy flier` has kept that story in my memory
all these years.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Seat-of-the-Pants/No Instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
George....
When you said..
"" It is my opinion that the lack of that instrument and the prolific use of
2
cycles in the early days and even today, has turned the reputation of Cuyuna
into .....hmmmm, ..... something really bad.""
You explain a very important thing...
IN those early days...we were NOT using ROTAX engines.....and we were not
useing insturments....or at least very few insturments and least of which
were engine monitoring.
We used about every other engine that was light...MCCullochs, West Bends,
Chryslers, and of course...the venerable Cuyuna. Dont know if I remember
ANY of them being immune to our lack of knowledge about 2-strokes and
prop-loading and the ..." squirrely wiles of 2 cycles "...as you so
eloquently put it.
I hate to admit it, but I tore up several without any regard to what brand
they were. IT was not until I started useing engine monitering insturments
did the rate of failure go down. At least as soon as I learned what was
going on in that cylinder!
AS I remember....it was a tach first.....then EGT.....or maybe CHT ...I
dont really remember..but soon...nothing I built was without both heat
monitering devices.
I dont think these insturments keep me from gaulding cylinders so much as
they just told me what I was doing to cause it to happen. They gave me a
direction to go in tuneing the engine/carb/prop to keep it from happening
again..or maybe I should say...as often!
ANyway...your observations as usual....are right on the money I think.
Don Gherardini
OEM.Sales / Engineering dept.
American Honda Engines
Power Equipment Company
CortLand, Illinois
800-626-7326
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>Hi LS/Gang:
>
>Reckon I'll have to disagree with this one too. ;-)
>
>Personally, I can see the ground a hell'uva lot easier than I can see
>stall speed. Stall speed is much more important than knowing how high
>I am, in my own humble opinion.
>
>Even is an air speed indicator is not calibrated accurately, it will
>always indicate the same stall speed, no matter what altitude.
The difficulty here is that stall is determined by _AOA_ and not airspeed.
You can stall at any airspeed, but you stall at only one AOA.....
This is a problem an ASI has that good instinctive flying skills do not.
Accellerated stalls, stalls in very steep turns, stalls at different
loadings and the like - an ASI will simply not help you much at all in these
very dangerous (when low to the ground) situations.
If, however, you've been trained to fly by AOA management first and airspeed
second your chances of doing the right thing in these cases is greatly
improved. I'm living proof of this, over and over ;).
>From my poor memory, most Kolb fatal accidents are the result of
>stalls low to the ground. Folks forget to cross check their airspeed
>indicators, or they rely on their "instincts" to keep them above stall
>speed. Very, very difficult to determine accurate airspeed by the
>seat of the pants, especially when turning down wind at very low
>altitudes.
Again, not to beat the dead horse, but I very respectfully and strongly
disagree with this. The airplane will tell you when you're approaching the
critical AOA in circumstances where the ASI won't be reliable. This works
every time, no matter what the wind is doing or how high you are. I think
it's absolutely critical that a pilot be trained to recognize these signs
and be able to fly accordingly. If you need the ASI to tell you you're
approaching the critical AOA, then I submit more training/experience in the
plane is needed.
I should mention that this works perfectly for me in my FS II and I've never
stalled it inadvertantly as a result. My ASI is, well, less than accurate
I'll put it that way, especially in high AOA situations....
Ok, I'll stop now I promise.
LS
N646F
do not archive
>john h
>MKIII/912S
>hauck's holler, alabama
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: snuffy@usol.com
> The difficulty here is that stall is determined by _AOA_ and not
airspeed.
My entire takeoff roll with my Minimax I leave the tail on the ground so
my AOA stays the same from zero to liftoff airspeed. According to your
thesis, the wing wasn't ever stalled from the moment it started rolling
forward.
Do not
archive
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>From: snuffy@usol.com
>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Flying without instruments???
>Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:43:27 EST
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: snuffy@usol.com
>
> > The difficulty here is that stall is determined by _AOA_ and not
>airspeed.
>
>
>My entire takeoff roll with my Minimax I leave the tail on the ground so
>my AOA stays the same from zero to liftoff airspeed. According to your
>thesis, the wing wasn't ever stalled from the moment it started rolling
>forward.
That's correct - if the wing section was not above the critical AOA with
respect to the relative wind, it wasn't stalled....
BTW, this isn't my thesis - this is a very well known fact of aerodynamics
that has been around as long as there have been airplanes.....
LS
N646F
do not archive
>Do not
>archive
>
>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
If my shaky memory serves me correctly, a stalled condition exists when the
angle of attack is such that the airflow separates from the wing and it
stops flying. In your case of takeoff, the wing probably isn't stalled,
there simply isn't sufficient airflow to lift the plane off the ground. A
similar case could be when coming in for landing at too low an airspeed, but
good angle of attack. The plane wouldn't stall, but your rate of descent
would be very high because of insufficient lift. Lots of bent gear from
that one. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <snuffy@usol.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Flying without instruments???
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: snuffy@usol.com
>
>> The difficulty here is that stall is determined by _AOA_ and not
> airspeed.
>
>
> My entire takeoff roll with my Minimax I leave the tail on the ground so
> my AOA stays the same from zero to liftoff airspeed. According to your
> thesis, the wing wasn't ever stalled from the moment it started rolling
> forward.
>
> Do not
> archive
>
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 01:52 PM 12/6/05 +0000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>
>Again, not to beat the dead horse, but I very respectfully and strongly
>disagree with this. The airplane will tell you when you're approaching the
>critical AOA in circumstances where the ASI won't be reliable. This works
>every time, no matter what the wind is doing or how high you are. I think
>it's absolutely critical that a pilot be trained to recognize these signs
>and be able to fly accordingly. If you need the ASI to tell you you're
>approaching the critical AOA, then I submit more training/experience in the
>plane is needed.
>
>I should mention that this works perfectly for me in my FS II and I've never
>stalled it inadvertantly as a result. My ASI is, well, less than accurate
>I'll put it that way, especially in high AOA situations....
>
>Ok, I'll stop now I promise.
>
Lucien,
During relatively quiet flying conditions, the eyes on the horizon, the
lower cheek and stick hand pressure give good feedback signal inputs. It is
much like flying a sailplane with noise added. Now comes the but. But
during cold winter days flying through very unstable air when the FireFly is
bobbing and twisting like a fishing cork, it adds a high degree of
distraction or error signal inputs that mask the good feedback signal
inputs. This is especially true if your shoulder belts are less than snug.
This is when I use the ASI.
After flying sailplanes for a couple of years with hours of slow flight, I
developed a response that when anything felt uncomfortable to push the stick
forward. This reaction has carried over to the FireFly. In unstable air, I
used to feel very uncomfortable turning from downwind to base and I would
want to push the stick forward. This lead to getting beat up more than
necessary by making a wider skidding turn. The addition of an elevator
position indicator helped. I discovered that as I was being beat up in the
turn, that if I kept the stick in the zero to one degree elevator up
position, I could bring the FireFly on around with confidence and the
discomfort disappeared.
One may say that you should not fly in these kinds of conditions. But if
you want to fly in the winter time, you have to endure unstable air when
leaving and returning to altitude.
Also, I use the ASI just after I flare the FireFly. A quick glance tells me
how much time I have to nurse it on down before it quits flying. I credit
ASI use as the major reason the landing gear legs on the FireFly have not
been replaced. The other time I use the ASI is after lift off to establish
climb rate.
Yes, you can and should be able fly without instruments, but with them and
their proper use, the risk to pilot and craft is reduced and the pilot
flight envelope is increased.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 912 Kill Switch & Ignition Wiring |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "c b" <seedeebee@hotmail.com>
Hey Fellow Kolbers,
Well I've been working on my Mk III for 3 months now since the original
exhaust system cracked up. I've got a new Titan Aircraft stainless system on
the 912 - it looks awesome!
While the ship was in dry dock, I decided to upgrade the kill switch, which
seems to have resulted in a downgrade...
Originally, there was a single switch that interrupted a wire that ran
directly from the battery to the "L" and "R" terminals on the back of the
ignition switch. When I hit the kill switch, the engine ran rough, but kept
on running.
So I decided that I would install 2 switches, one for each mag, and hook
them up so they completely killed the engine. I removed the wire from the
battery and wired in my switches to the wires that lead out from the "L" and
"R" posts on the ignition switch.
Now the engine runs rough all of the time, and the two kill switches do
absolutely nothing.
I looked in the Rotax install manual, and it doesn't make much sense to me.
I can't find a diagram from which I can tell what I did wrong... I'm no
wiring expert, but I didn't think I was a complete moron either... Any help
would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Chris Banys
Kolb Mk III 912UL (will be amphib again in 2006)
N10FR
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: snuffy@usol.com
>
> That's correct - if the wing section was not above the critical AOA
with
> respect to the relative wind, it wasn't stalled....
I'm glad to see you considered the relative wind . Does this relative
wind have a velocity? If so is this wind velocity a factor in the flight of
the wing? Or can we just fly this wing at any velocity as long as the
wing is at the proper AOA?
Do not
archive
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>I'm glad to see you considered the relative wind . Does this relative
>wind have a velocity?
Yes.
> If so is this wind velocity a factor in the flight of
>the wing?
Yes.
>Or can we just fly this wing at any velocity as long as the
>wing is at the proper AOA?
We can fly the wing as long as it generates enough lift to overcome gravity
(hint: even a stalled wing still generates lift)....
LS
N646F
>Do not
>archive
>
>
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
<<making a wider skidding turn.>>
<<, that if I kept the stick in the zero to one degree elevator up
position,>>
Hi,
A skidding turn on the approach when you are low almost guarantees that the
inside wing will stall and you will spin into the ground.
I would want more up elevator than `zero to 1 degree`. Up elevator is what
makes you turn
I had a friend and we were undergoing glider training at the same level.
One day he launched with an instructor to practice `cable breaks`. The
equivelant to `engine out` to power pilots.
Part way up the cable on a winch launch at 5/600 feet,the instructor
released the cable to simulate a break. The student should have put the nose
down and landed straight ahead. There was plenty of room. Instead he turned
back. Even then a down wind landing would have been possible if not pretty.
Unfortunately the pilot decided to turn again to get into wind and land. By
now he was too low. He was afraid to stick his wing down because he was too
close to the ground and he was holding the nose up to stretch the glide.
Classic position for a spin, which the glider promptly did.
My friend was killed instantly, the instructor died a couple of days later.
We shall never know why the instructor found it impossible to take over, but
I assure you that after that I have never balked at putting the wing down
steeply to get round the turn and then stuffing the nose down to maintain
speed.
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
We can fly the wing as long as it generates enough lift to overcome gravity
> (hint: even a stalled wing still generates lift)....
That would hint at the value of a relative wind velocity meter.
Do not archive
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
> We can fly the wing as long as it generates enough lift to overcome
>gravity
> > (hint: even a stalled wing still generates lift)....
>
>That would hint at the value of a relative wind velocity meter.
For guaging _lift_ sure, but for indicating _stall_, it's not as useful and
can even give incorrect indications under certain circumstances (i.e. in an
accellerated stall condition).
In fact, an AOA indicator is really what you need for that.
Lift is a function of both velocity of the wing section through the airmass
and AOA. But _stall_ is _only_ a function of AOA, it has nothing to do with
the velocity of the relative wind. Stall of a wing occurs at one and only
one AOA, regardless of the speed of the air over it.
This is easy to confuse, because we talk about the stall _speed_ of our
aircraft, which can give the misleading impression that stall is a function
of _speed_. But this is only apparent and is NOT the case...
LS
N646F
do not archive
>Do not archive
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "J W Hauck" <jimh474@earthlink.net>
Lucien:
Wut you be aviatin, de dang space shuttle?
Jim Hauck
Do not archieve
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
> can even give incorrect indications under certain circumstances (i.e. in
an
> accellerated stall condition).
> In fact, an AOA indicator is really what you need for that.
So I wonder how we could devise an AOA indicator for a Kolb. Might be
interesting to play with. Right up there with VG's......;>)
Do not archive
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
Lucien,
This discussion just goes to show that you don't have to understand
aeronautics to commit aviation!! ~ Earl
P.S. I love seat-of-the-pants fly-in makes me feel like I'm wearing the
plane! Probably hard to do in a 747 though? :-)
lucien stavenhagen wrote:
>>That would hint at the value of a relative wind velocity meter.
>
>
> For guaging _lift_ sure, but for indicating _stall_, it's not as useful and
> can even give incorrect indications under certain circumstances (i.e. in an
> accellerated stall condition).
> In fact, an AOA indicator is really what you need for that.
>
> Lift is a function of both velocity of the wing section through the airmass
> and AOA. But _stall_ is _only_ a function of AOA, it has nothing to do with
> the velocity of the relative wind. Stall of a wing occurs at one and only
> one AOA, regardless of the speed of the air over it.
>
> This is easy to confuse, because we talk about the stall _speed_ of our
> aircraft, which can give the misleading impression that stall is a function
> of _speed_. But this is only apparent and is NOT the case...
>
> LS
> N646F
>
> do not archive
--
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "J carter" <cartejy@mtn-state.com>
Good comments Pat, I am also Gldr rated and about 250 gldrHrs ..1-26. Spent
lots time tight turns ,Airspeed control ,and would not hesitate to stick
nose down some and do tight turns
if need be.have 91 Kolb kxp 503. jCarter do not archive----- Original
Message -----
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Flying without instruments???
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> <<making a wider skidding turn.>>
> <<, that if I kept the stick in the zero to one degree elevator up
> position,>>
>
> Hi,
>
> A skidding turn on the approach when you are low almost guarantees that
the
> inside wing will stall and you will spin into the ground.
> I would want more up elevator than `zero to 1 degree`. Up elevator is what
> makes you turn
> I had a friend and we were undergoing glider training at the same level.
> One day he launched with an instructor to practice `cable breaks`. The
> equivelant to `engine out` to power pilots.
> Part way up the cable on a winch launch at 5/600 feet,the instructor
> released the cable to simulate a break. The student should have put the
nose
> down and landed straight ahead. There was plenty of room. Instead he
turned
> back. Even then a down wind landing would have been possible if not
pretty.
> Unfortunately the pilot decided to turn again to get into wind and land.
By
> now he was too low. He was afraid to stick his wing down because he was
too
> close to the ground and he was holding the nose up to stretch the glide.
> Classic position for a spin, which the glider promptly did.
> My friend was killed instantly, the instructor died a couple of days
later.
>
> We shall never know why the instructor found it impossible to take over,
but
> I assure you that after that I have never balked at putting the wing down
> steeply to get round the turn and then stuffing the nose down to maintain
> speed.
>
> Pat
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
I remember seeing about 25-30 years ago plans for a very simple, easily built AOA
indicator which would work on the Kolb. I believe it was in the old EAA magazine.
Perhaps someone could plug in AOA into EAA old magazine files and find
it. If I remember correctly, it could be built for probably less than $5.00.
I still maintain, an ASI will give the information that will keep any half way
intelligent pilot out of trouble. If for one minute, FAA thought an AOA indicator
would lessen the death toll of careless pilots, they would mandate one on
all of our craft immediately. Even commercial ones would be relatively cheap.
The little vane type on some 'store bought' aircraft that blows the horn just
before stall is nothing but a small simple AOA device. Come to think of it,
maybe some one can scrounge one off a wrecked aircraft for free and try it on
a Kolb.
KolbUltrastar ----Tenn.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Kirk Smith <snuffy@usol.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith"
> can even give incorrect indications under certain circumstances (i.e. in
an
> accellerated stall condition).
> In fact, an AOA indicator is really what you need for that.
So I wonder how we could devise an AOA indicator for a Kolb. Might be
interesting to play with. Right up there with VG's......;>)
Do not archive
---------------------------------
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: bryan green <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
ray anderson wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
>
>I remember seeing about 25-30 years ago plans for a very simple, easily built
AOA indicator which would work on the Kolb. I believe it was in the old EAA magazine.
Perhaps someone could plug in AOA into EAA old magazine files and find
it. If I remember correctly, it could be built for probably less than $5.00.
>
>
> I found this in the Kolb archives.
*I worked up a simple, inexpensive, and light weight aoa indicator that might
be of interest to anyone who flies a Kolb with the small nose cone. I have
been using it for last few months and it works well.
It can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly84.html
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO*
Bryan Green Elgin SC
>Do not archive
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 05:05 PM 12/6/05 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
>
>I remember seeing about 25-30 years ago plans for a very simple, easily built
AOA indicator which would work on the Kolb. I believe it was in the old EAA magazine.
Perhaps someone could plug in AOA into EAA old magazine files and find
it. If I remember correctly, it could be built for probably less than $5.00.
> I still maintain, an ASI will give the information that will keep any half way
intelligent pilot out of trouble. If for one minute, FAA thought an AOA indicator
would lessen the death toll of careless pilots, they would mandate one
on all of our craft immediately. Even commercial ones would be relatively cheap.
The little vane type on some 'store bought' aircraft that blows the horn just
before stall is nothing but a small simple AOA device. Come to think of it,
maybe some one can scrounge one off a wrecked aircraft for free and try it on
a Kolb.
> KolbUltrastar ----Tenn.
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
Ray,
There is a fairly simple one illustrated at:
http://www.adventureairsports.com/aoa.htm
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
I worked up a simple, inexpensive directional indicator on the top of my
nose cone. Not only can I tell if the plane is slipping ..... if the
little arrow is pointing back towards me, then I know my AOA is all wrong.
Works every time.
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.09.27.2003/Seat2.jpg
BTW the ole timers who first flew airmail would carry pigeons with
them. The idea was
to release one if they were caught in the clouds or the fog and
follow the bird out. The problem was the pigeon didn't know which way
was up either.
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/possums@mindspring.com.07.26.2002/thum.jpg
>*I worked up a simple, inexpensive, and light weight aoa indicator that might
>be of interest to anyone who flies a Kolb with the small nose cone. I have
>been using it for last few months and it works well.
>
>It can be seen at:
>
>http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly84.html
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Jackson, MO*
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Special Kolb Christmas Message |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Kolbers and Kolbettes...
The Kolb Expeditionary Squadron, Manitee, upon reflection as to the
joyous season of the year, and in recognition of the high character, singularly
commendable technical achievements and mostly honorable intentions of the
Kolb List Community, have therefore resolved to proffer the Squadron's Official
Season's Greeting to Kolbers and Kolbettes everywhere...
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbflyer/ManHoliday.html
Gimme a HO...!
Gimme a HO HO...!
Gimme a HO HO HO......!
We wish you and yours a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year...!
George Alexander (Firestar II)
Chris Mallory (Firestar II)
B. Tuton (FireFly)
Thanks to George for the special photographic "enhancements"....
Do Not Archive
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 08:28 PM 12/6/05 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: bryan green <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
>
>
>ray anderson wrote:
>
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
>>
>>I remember seeing about 25-30 years ago plans for a very simple, easily built
AOA indicator which would work on the Kolb. I believe it was in the old EAA magazine.
Perhaps someone could plug in AOA into EAA old magazine files and find
it. If I remember correctly, it could be built for probably less than $5.00.
>>
>>
>> I found this in the Kolb archives.
>
>
>*I worked up a simple, inexpensive, and light weight aoa indicator that might
>be of interest to anyone who flies a Kolb with the small nose cone. I have
>been using it for last few months and it works well.
>
>It can be seen at:
>
>http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly84.html
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Jackson, MO*
>
>Bryan Green Elgin SC
>
>>Do not archive
>>
Bryan,
This system worked well when the string was placed lower on the slab sides, but
the problem was that the end of the string was too low to see well. I moved
it up so I could see it better, and when I did, I got too close to the rounded
top of the windshield. The end result was that one could change the aoa and
the string would not move because it was caught in the air moving up from the
slab sides to the top of the windshield.
So my simple aoa indicator I had was not worth much because it was in a hard to
see location.
I still have it on my short list to do.
What I was attempting to do is similar to what is described in my previous post.
It would be nice if it could be placed directly in the center of the pilots
vision so it would be easy to see if and when it was needed.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Do not archive
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 2005 List of Contributors (Update)... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
There seemed to a number of members that were having a problem viewing the List
of Contributors this year, particularly for those using some versions of Outlook
and some web-based email clients. Just to make sure that everyone is properly
acknowledged for their generous support of the Lists this year, I have made
a simple web page with the current contributees as of 12/06/05. This can viewed
here:
http://www.matronics.com/ListOfContributors2005.html
Thank you to everyone that made a contribution this year. The Contribution web
site with all of this year's great gifts is still open for those of you that
would like to show your last minute support!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thanks again to everyone that supported the Lists this year!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email Lists Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|