---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/07/05: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:32 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (pat ladd) 2. 02:39 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (pat ladd) 3. 06:32 AM - John W's Texas Flight Report (John Hauck) 4. 07:18 AM - Re: John W's Texas Flight Report (Larry Bourne) 5. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (JIM HEFNER) 6. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (lucien stavenhagen) 7. 08:21 AM - lift reserve indicator (robert bean) 8. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (Ed Chmielewski) 9. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (Jeremy Casey) 10. 10:23 AM - Re: Flying without instruments (ray anderson) 11. 11:57 AM - Re: Special Kolb Christmas Message (Jim Ballenger) 12. 12:19 PM - Home Made AOA Meter (Jack B. Hart) 13. 04:50 PM - Mark III Xtra in Northwest? (Michael Deegan) 14. 05:18 PM - Re: Flying without instruments (ray anderson) 15. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: Re: Flying without instruments??? (lucien stavenhagen) 16. 06:58 PM - Downwind turns (Bill Vincent) 17. 07:36 PM - Re: John W's Texas Flight Report (Michael Bigelow) 18. 08:57 PM - Re: John W's Texas Flight Report (David Key) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:17 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Flying without instruments??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" This discussion just goes to show that you don't have to understand aeronautics to commit aviation!! >> Hi, you had better have a pretty good idea of aeronatics if you are going to do it without instruments. Cheers Pat do not archive -- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:26 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: RE: Flying without instruments??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" Spent lots time tight turns ,>> Hi, I think all pilots in a perfect world would train in gliders. An average glider pilots flight, banked at 40 degress about 5 knots above the stall with 20 other gliders withing 400 yards all doing the same thing would give the average power pilot the screaming habdabs. Certainly gave me the habdabs sometimes. Cheers Pat -- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:25 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: John W's Texas Flight Report --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1/2005_Flights/gky-mfe_2005.htm ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:13 AM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: John W's Texas Flight Report --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Very nice. Thanks..............envy rules. :-) Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk III N78LB Vamoose www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: John W's Texas Flight Report > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1/2005_Flights/gky-mfe_2005.htm > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:11 AM PST US From: "JIM HEFNER" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JIM HEFNER" Lucien is correct. The GA guys call AOA indicators Lift Reserve Indicators (LRI). Some planes actually have instruments in the dash to indicate the AOA margin to stall. My friend that is building a Zenith 701 has installed one in his dash.... really a slick setup! This instrument will tell him more accurately than anything else, particularly ASI, when he is about to stall the airplane, no matter what the attitude, windspeed or airspeed. An instrument like this is more difficult to implement inexpensively on a Kolb however, for many of the reasons Jack Hart eluded to in his post on the topic. Jim Hefner Tucson, AZ FF #022 Do not archive ---------------------------- That's correct - if the wing section was not above the critical AOA with respect to the relative wind, it wasn't stalled.... BTW, this isn't my thesis - this is a very well known fact of aerodynamics that has been around as long as there have been airplanes..... LS N646F ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:05 AM PST US From: "lucien stavenhagen" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" By the way, speaking of AOA, my FSII actually does have an AOA indicator on it built by the original builder of the plane. It's out on the left wing so it's not useable during landing, but I do look at it every now and then in the pattern or when practicing stalls... I'll try to take some pictures of it, it's basically a small weathervane thing made out of a flat piece of wood, mounted in a bearing.... it's pretty nifty, although mostly just a good conversation piece and not much more useful than that..... LS N646F >From: "JIM HEFNER" >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com >To: "Kolb List" >Subject: Kolb-List: Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? >Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:37:50 -0700 > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JIM HEFNER" > >Lucien is correct. The GA guys call AOA indicators Lift Reserve Indicators >(LRI). Some planes actually have instruments in the dash to indicate the >AOA margin to stall. My friend that is building a Zenith 701 has >installed one in his dash.... really a slick setup! This instrument will >tell him more accurately than anything else, particularly ASI, when he is >about to stall the airplane, no matter what the attitude, windspeed or >airspeed. An instrument like this is more difficult to implement >inexpensively on a Kolb however, for many of the reasons Jack Hart eluded >to in his post on the topic. > >Jim Hefner >Tucson, AZ >FF #022 > >Do not archive > >---------------------------- > >That's correct - if the wing section was not above the critical AOA with >respect to the relative wind, it wasn't stalled.... > >BTW, this isn't my thesis - this is a very well known fact of aerodynamics >that has been around as long as there have been airplanes..... > >LS >N646F > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:49 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Kolb-List: lift reserve indicator --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean (subject line changed) Jim, very interesting. A lot of good links can be googled. A very good instrument but a little expensive. Kolbers being do it yourselfers can devise something to yield similar info. Much more useful than VSI -BB do not achive On 7, Dec 2005, at 10:37 AM, JIM HEFNER wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JIM HEFNER" > > Lucien is correct. The GA guys call AOA indicators Lift Reserve > Indicators (LRI). Some planes actually have instruments in the dash > to indicate the AOA margin to stall. My friend that is building a > Zenith 701 has installed one in his dash.... really a slick setup! > This instrument will tell him more accurately than anything else, > particularly ASI, when he is about to stall the airplane, no matter > what the attitude, windspeed or airspeed. An instrument like this is > more difficult to implement inexpensively on a Kolb however, for many > of the reasons Jack Hart eluded to in his post on the topic. > > Jim Hefner > Tucson, AZ > FF #022 > > Do not archive > > ---------------------------- > > That's correct - if the wing section was not above the critical AOA > with > respect to the relative wind, it wasn't stalled.... > > BTW, this isn't my thesis - this is a very well known fact of > aerodynamics > that has been around as long as there have been airplanes..... > > LS > N646F > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:08 AM PST US From: "Ed Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" Hi Lucien, Does the device indicate critical AOA? Sounds like the weathervane devices similar to electric 'stall warning' tabs on most GA planes. Those only indicate wind angle, and being adjustable one can make them indicate whatever is desired (early/late onset, etc.). True AOA devices on turbine GA equipment involve an air data computer and, when set up right, are very accurate (within 1% of stall speed). Interesting to fly an approach in turbulent air (at 1.3 VS) and see the indicator get near the red, while airspeed jumps around a little bit. Those AOAs are much more reliable than the ASI. Interesting thread. We've gone from talking about no ASI to AOA, no airspeed indicator to precision slow-flight devices. Do not archive. Ed in JXN MkII/503 ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien stavenhagen" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" > > > > By the way, speaking of AOA, my FSII actually does have an AOA indicator > on > it built by the original builder of the plane. It's out on the left wing > so > it's not useable during landing, but I do look at it every now and then in > the pattern or when practicing stalls... > > I'll try to take some pictures of it, it's basically a small weathervane > thing made out of a flat piece of wood, mounted in a bearing.... it's > pretty > nifty, although mostly just a good conversation piece and not much more > useful than that..... > > LS > N646F ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:31 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Casey" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" Look here for the "homemade" version of the high dollar "Lift reserve indicator". http://www.snyder.on.ca/pages/lri.htm This is a kind of "Ford vs Chevy" debate and some will just find this useless. I have talked to others that will swear by the AOA gauge as a landing aid. Have been told the U.S. Navy use AOA instrumentation heavily (they are arguably the most EXTREME short field landing pilots in the world ;-) Your mileage may vary... Jeremy Casey ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:36 AM PST US From: ray anderson Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Flying without instruments --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson < Interesting thread. We've gone from talking about no ASI to AOA, no airspeed indicator to precision slow-flight devices. > All of this back and forth is interesting and to a degree informative, but it's beginning to sound like we're not flying one of the most docile aircraft around, a Kolb, but are getting ready to fly a P51 or F18. Just keep your eye on your lowly ASI and enjoy. Kolb UltraStar ... Tenn DO NOT ARCHIVE --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:44 AM PST US From: "Jim Ballenger" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Special Kolb Christmas Message --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Ballenger" Great picture. Merry Christmas. Jim Ballenger MK III X 582 Virginia Beach, VA Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beauford" Subject: Kolb-List: Special Kolb Christmas Message > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" > > Kolbers and Kolbettes... > > The Kolb Expeditionary Squadron, Manitee, upon reflection as to the > joyous season of the year, and in recognition of the high character, > singularly > commendable technical achievements and mostly honorable intentions of the > Kolb List Community, have therefore resolved to proffer the Squadron's > Official > Season's Greeting to Kolbers and Kolbettes everywhere... > > http://home.comcast.net/~kolbflyer/ManHoliday.html > > > Gimme a HO...! > Gimme a HO HO...! > Gimme a HO HO HO......! > > > We wish you and yours a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year...! > > George Alexander (Firestar II) > Chris Mallory (Firestar II) > B. Tuton (FireFly) > > Thanks to George for the special photographic "enhancements".... > Do Not Archive > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:23 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: Home Made AOA Meter --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" At 12:41 PM 12/7/05 -0500, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" > >Look here for the "homemade" version of the high dollar "Lift reserve >indicator". > Jeremy, This is great. One can get a little better printout from: http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm and the drawing prints out well from: http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/print/angleattack.jpg I changed the subject line. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:03 PM PST US From: Michael Deegan Subject: Kolb-List: Mark III Xtra in Northwest? --> Kolb-List message posted by: Michael Deegan Hi folks, first time post. I'm a novice pilot going for my Sport Pilot rating. The Mark III Xtra is on my short list of planes I might want to build, but I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. Does anyone in the group know of one flying in the Northwest, more specifically the Eastern Wash./North Idaho area? Could anyone contrast and compare the M3X with the Titan II and the RANS S-12 Airaile? I prefer the looks of the Kolb to either of these and the wing folding feature is good, but the taildragger aspect worries me a bit. but if the enthusiasm of the list members is anything to go by, these must be great planes. Thanks. Mike Deegan ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:06 PM PST US From: ray anderson Subject: Kolb-List: RE: Flying without instruments --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson I shouldn't mention the subject again but if Kolbers do seriously look into the purchase of an AOA system, I just finished reading a good article on Navy carrier landing techniques and was surprised to read that they cut their fatalities in half when they switched EXCLUSIVELY to using only the AOA indicator for all carrier landings. Eyes on that and nothing else. Interesting. Incidentally, the commercial version complete, seems to sell for about $450.00 I wouldn't be interested in one for my light, slow speed UltraStar but some of you guys are flying fairly heavy and fast (relatively speaking) Kolbs out of short fields in pretty gusty and windy conditions. UltraStar .. Tenn Do Not Archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:08 PM PST US From: "lucien stavenhagen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" Ed, No not at all, it's basically just a little weathervane tilted over sideways. It's shaped out of a flat piece of wood, the bottom of which is stuck inside a bearing. That bearing is in a small metal plate mounted on the end of a round dowel. There's a tube riveted to the underside of the wing that accepts the dowel with a big safety pin... I'll try to get a picture of it next time I remember to bring my camera to the airport ;). Its only real problem is it's way out there on the left wing and only readable when looking out to the left. I've done stalls while looking at it and shows stall AOA pretty consistently.. As I said it's more of a conversation piece than anything.... LS N646F >Hi Lucien, > > Does the device indicate critical AOA? Sounds like the >weathervane >devices similar to electric 'stall warning' tabs on most GA planes. Those >only indicate wind angle, and being adjustable one can make them indicate >whatever is desired (early/late onset, etc.). True AOA devices on turbine >GA equipment involve an air data computer and, when set up right, are very >accurate (within 1% of stall speed). Interesting to fly an approach in >turbulent air (at 1.3 VS) and see the indicator get near the red, while >airspeed jumps around a little bit. Those AOAs are much more reliable than >the ASI. > > Interesting thread. We've gone from talking about no ASI to AOA, >no >airspeed indicator to precision slow-flight devices. > >Do not archive. > >Ed in JXN >MkII/503 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "lucien stavenhagen" >To: >Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: RE: Flying without instruments??? > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" > > > > > > > > By the way, speaking of AOA, my FSII actually does have an AOA indicator > > on > > it built by the original builder of the plane. It's out on the left wing > > so > > it's not useable during landing, but I do look at it every now and then >in > > the pattern or when practicing stalls... > > > > I'll try to take some pictures of it, it's basically a small weathervane > > thing made out of a flat piece of wood, mounted in a bearing.... it's > > pretty > > nifty, although mostly just a good conversation piece and not much more > > useful than that..... > > > > LS > > N646F > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:38 PM PST US From: "Bill Vincent" Subject: Kolb-List: Downwind turns --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bill Vincent" Kolb Flyers and Builders My 2 cents: Be very careful making a downwind turn close to the ground,without an airspeed indicator. The groundspeed suddenly rises, which you notice out the corner of your eye,giving you a false sense that your airspeed is also increasing . In reality your AIRSPEED may be dangerously bleeding off !!!! We do not have the senses that a bird has ....keep one eye on your airspeed indicator at all times. Bill Vincent Firestar II Upper Peninsula of Michigan DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:39 PM PST US From: "Michael Bigelow" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: John W's Texas Flight Report --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Michael Bigelow" Hi John, I found your entire web page from the URL listed here, and I really liked all the pictures ! I looked at every flight from 2005.. That really looks like a blast, sign me up for all those cross country flights and flyins when my MK-III is done :) Mike Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:04 PM PST US From: "David Key" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: John W's Texas Flight Report --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" DO NOT ARCHIVE John, I live in Dallas and would love to go on an adventure with you after I get mine. I had to sell my last Mark III a couple of years ago. I'm saving for another now, arrivial time should be late Spring or early Summer 06. You are welcome to stop by my airport home anytime F69 North of Addison 3 miles. David Key 9) 267-6697 >From: "John Hauck" >Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Kolb-List: John W's Texas Flight Report >Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:31:53 -0600 > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > >http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1/2005_Flights/gky-mfe_2005.htm > >