Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:27 AM - funnel (Ted Cowan)
2. 05:34 AM - Re: funnel (Jim Ballenger)
3. 06:56 AM - Re: Fascinating Gas (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
4. 06:56 AM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (lucien stavenhagen)
5. 08:04 AM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (kfackler)
6. 08:05 AM - Re: funnel (kfackler)
7. 08:26 AM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (lucien stavenhagen)
8. 08:51 AM - Fuel tank cleaning (Chris Mallory)
9. 09:13 AM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (how it's flown) (Ralph)
10. 09:36 AM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (how it's flown) (Ralph)
11. 09:41 AM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (John Hauck)
12. 11:23 AM - New Kolber with dash! (flht99reh)
13. 12:52 PM - Re: New Kolber with dash! (Denny Rowe)
14. 03:02 PM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (lucien stavenhagen)
15. 04:47 PM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (Steven Green)
16. 05:19 PM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (lucien stavenhagen)
17. 05:20 PM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (Wayne T. McCullough)
18. 05:45 PM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (how it's flown) (Bill Vincent)
19. 05:50 PM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (lucien stavenhagen)
20. 08:06 PM - 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (frank & margie)
21. 08:24 PM - Re: funnel (DAquaNut@aol.com)
22. 08:43 PM - Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (Don Gherardini)
23. 08:48 PM - [ Beauford Tuton ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
24. 08:50 PM - [ Kem Dunnebacke ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
25. 08:53 PM - [ Ralph Hoover ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
26. 08:54 PM - [ Ralph Hoover ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
27. 09:03 PM - Fw: [ultralightchapter104] Prop starting by hand..... (Mike Schnabel)
28. 10:11 PM - 912 Idle Issues (c b)
29. 11:53 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan <trc1917@direcway.com>
I have had same weird experience with the byproduct of pouring fuel through
a mister funnel. I used to use a rite mix messuring cup and after dumping
the oil in the can, would rinse it with gas. Often, it would leave a white,
milky, paste behind. My guess is it is doing it in the mr funnel bottom
also. always made me wonder if it was doing it in the bottom of my tank but
never found any. never killed an engine with it though. ted cowan, alabama
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Ballenger" <ulpilot@cavtel.net>
All
When I bought my Firestar in 99, the owner told me he had not drained and
cleaned the fuel tank for a year and it needed cleaning. Well, I did not
heed his word and clean the tank. I had 4 engine outs, 2 on take off, 1 on
down wind and 1 on base.
I kept thinking it was the carb but couldn't find the problem. I finally
decided to clean the tank and found the same milky, white, gooey paste in
the bottom of the tank right next to the fuel pick up. I could start the
engine, do my run up, but the minute I took off with the up angle the paste
would cover the fuel pick up and stop my fuel flow. By this time, I would
be about 2 hundred feet in the air and the engine would stop. Fortunately,
I had plenty of runway in front of me for a power off landing.
I replaced the tank, fuel tubing, fuel pump and carb. This cured the
problem and I made it part of my regular maintenance to drain and clean my
tank every 6 months.
Jim Ballenger
MK III X 582
Virginia Beach, VA
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Cowan" <trc1917@direcway.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: funnel
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ted Cowan <trc1917@direcway.com>
>
> I have had same weird experience with the byproduct of pouring fuel
> through
> a mister funnel. I used to use a rite mix messuring cup and after dumping
> the oil in the can, would rinse it with gas. Often, it would leave a
> white,
> milky, paste behind. My guess is it is doing it in the mr funnel bottom
> also. always made me wonder if it was doing it in the bottom of my tank
> but
> never found any. never killed an engine with it though. ted cowan,
> alabama
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fascinating Gas |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <neilsenrmf@comcast.net>
Bill
I think Chris is right that's oil and water mixing. I blew a head gasket in
a car years ago and water from the cooling system got into the oil. When I
checked the oil there was the same white pasty goo all over the dip stick
and when I drained the oil it all came out the same way.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Armstrong" <tophera@centurytel.net>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Fascinating Gas
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Christopher Armstrong"
> <tophera@centurytel.net>
>
> If it is a filter funnel that is designed to also separate water my guess
> is
> that it separated water leaving mostly water in the funnel with a bit of
> higher concentration fuel oil mix from the bottom of the can, being the
> last
> bit that came out of the can and you say you only shook it a bit. Amsoil
> is
> known to turn to goo if it gets much water near it, and that is probably
> what happened. I am not a big fan of Amsoil because of this.
>
> You can try to recreate the incident by mixing a similar batch of fuel,
> with
> the same "few seconds" of shaking and intentionally put a little water in
> the funnel before you pour through it. If you get the same goo after a
> few
> minutes, then the funnel is doing its job and the Amsoil is doing its
> funky
> thing with water.
>
> Christopher Armstrong
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Beauford
> To: Kolb List
> Subject: Kolb-List: Fascinating Gas
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Kolbers:
> A strange thing happened on the way to the kleenex airplane today...
>
> As usual, I stopped at the tailgate of the carbon-encrusted pickup to mix
> a
> fresh 5 gallons of Race Trac's finest regular with the proper quantity of
> Amsoil Sabre 100 to 1 air cooled synthetic... shook the fool out of it
> for
> a few seconds, then dumped it through the filter funnel into the airplane.
>
> I saved the small amount of residual mix in the bottom of the funnel to
> use
> to load the hand primer syringe I employ to start the mighty 447... the
> hand-held primer is part of a larger ritual developed over time, involving
> chants and some fairly intricate dance steps... but I digress...
>
> Long story short, I got delayed for about ten minutes (geezers tend to do
> that a lot), then went back to finish loading the primer. I was surprised
> to see that during the ten minutes I had been away, the fuel mix in the
> bottom of the funnel had turned into a milky fluid with strings of nasty
> white mucus-looking material collected in the bottom...the whitish opaque
> liquid was tinted a wicked shade of pale blue from the dye in the oil...
> Hadn't seen anything like that in the bottom of a container since a
> certain
> frat party at one of the universities Beauford was asked to leave as a
> young
> man...
>
> Anyway.... 'ol Beauford might not be the highest velocity cartridge in the
> clip, but he has not yet consumed quite enough Beefeaters and smoked
> enough
> cheap stogies so as to have rendered him wholly incapable of detecting
> whether the 5 gallons of concoction he was pouring in the tank had been
> miraculously transformed by the fuel fairy into milk of magnesia... It
> looked perfectly OK going in... But I just had to look...
>
> I hot footed it over there and peered into the Kolb's tank .. nope... it
> was
> blue all right, but crystal clear... you could read an in-law's obituary
> through 50 gallons of that stuff...
>
> Bewilderment.
>
> I suspect that the moisture in the air was interacting with the mix
> remaining in the funnel...but today was a fair day, about 70F, and
> completely dry. Was it forming an emulsion of some sort...? But if so,
> why
> not also the mix in the fuel tank, which, through the vent openings, sits
> exposed to the same atmosphere for weeks at a time...? The old mix I
> siphon
> out of the plane when refueling is always as clear as the day I put it in.
>
> The gas around here generally has no alcohol... they use MTBE... Is it
> something peculiar about the Amsoil ester-base oil...? I know it
> supposedly
> has certain hygroscopic characteristics, but is this normal behavior when
> mixed with gas and allowed to sit for a few minutes..? What are the
> implications for running this discolored mix through a Bing into a 447..?
> Will it lube bearings fully...? Plug jets?
>
> I have taken the liberty to post a close-up of the "stuff" pooled in the
> bottom of the funnel... It is (or soon will be) on the Matronics
> photo-share...
>
> Any insights or explanations from the List would be appreciated.
>
> Baffled Beauford
> FF#076
> Brandon, FL
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>Men...on the 2cycle Vs 4cycle engine issure, I have been following this
>thread, and
>in reading I sometimes wonder if some might be confuseing...or better said,
>interchangeing, the meaning of the word relilable with durability?
> Working for the largest manufacturer of 4 cycle engines in the world, I
>am
>very familiar with the commonly misunderstood comparision of these 2
>engines.
>
>A 2 cycle can easily be built as reliable as a 4 cycle...but it is almost
>impossible to build one as "durable"...I say "almost" because someone who
>works for Detroit Deisel might be reading here and take issue with the
>statement.
>
>So remember in your reading of the posts...are we debateing a durability
>problem..or a dependability problem. Sometimes both I think..and they
>shouldnt be confused.
>
>Could we agree that a certain Rotax 2 cycle might be as dependable as a
>certain 4 stroke....but it just wont last for as long? With that might come
>the admission that it wont be as "dependable" for as long......
I'll go along with this 100% - this is unquestionably true....
In fact, ironically, this is one of the main improvements in terms of
reliability of 2-strokes over the years - a very good knowledge of the
limits in terms of how long things last in the motor and what kind of
operation they're NOT tolerant of.......
This is what I mean when I say knowledge is the key to reliable operation of
any engine including 2-strokes. And the reason I can confidently say that
the Rotax 2-strokes ARE quite reliable.
For example, some operational things that tweak 2-stroke weaknesses are:
- extended full throttle operation. I.e. running at max or very near max all
the time. This is where the 300 hour TBO listed in the manual came from ;).
The usual cause here is underpowering the airplane to cut costs - putting a
503 on a big 2-place and flying it dual a lot of the time (where really the
582 or something bigger is required). Generally, aviation 4-strokes can
handle this all the way out to TBO (some of the continental/lycoming
aviation motors are literally designed to run at full throttle just about
all the time), but a 2-stroke due to its design is simply not as durable
when run this hard.
- low MOI limits on the Rotax gearboxes, particularly the B box. Some of the
most popular props on the market (like the IVO in 3-blades and the warp
drive) are 50% or more over the MOI limits of the B box. They can take it
and regularly do, but the stresses they put on the crank and other moving
parts inside the motor and gearbox itself are outside of the design limits.
This can lead to premature damage and wear, and sometimes catastrophic
failure.
- mag end electric starters. The 2-stroke Rotaxen's weak spots are generally
the cranks (especially with the 582) and the ME electric starts can do a lot
of damage (especially the GPL starter, but even the Rotax model) - you have
that bendix flying out and smacking the starter gear which is like taking a
hammer to the edge of it. This puts a heavy side-loading shock on the mag
end of the crank, which can knock the journals out of alignment. Also, they
have to instantly get the entire moving system - crank and prop - up to 300
rpm, which puts a lot of stress on the crank (much moreso than the pull
start). You have no such problem at all on the bigger 4-strokes, since
their cranks are MUCH beefier even if they are press-fit designs.
- over or under propping. Here is where the 4-stroke shines and the 2-stroke
just makes you pull your hair out in aggravation. In particular, 2-strokes
are extremely susceptible to high-rpm/low throttle opening situations due to
their design (this leads to poor lubrication and cooling). So too small of a
load, such as a fast descent with the throttle reduced or too small/too fine
of a prop, is a hazardous situation to be in with a 2-stroke. With a
4-stroke there's no such concern at all, since the lubrication circuit is
completely independent. Just keep it below redline and you're ok basically
;). Overpropping is less bad on a 2-stroke but still bad since their torque
curves tend to be fairly peaky. 4-strokes - no problem or very little
problem....
Last but not least:
- simply lower TBO generally due to higher specific output, more maintenance
required. These are just facts of life of 2-stroke operation and these have
to be paid attention to. The crank seals on the Rotax simply start to leak
at 100 hours or so and there's nothing that can be done about it. They also
simply wear out faster (400 to 500 hours on the aircooled) and just simply
need to be rebuilt after that time. The 4-strokes just simply last longer,
i.e. the 912 has a TBO _more than 4 times_ longer than the 2-stroke! That's
just a fact of life (and certainly nothing I ever debated against).
So, while these are definite limitations of the 2-stroke, they're KNOWN
limitations - that allows us to work around them and avoid the reliability
problems they can introduce.
Indeed, the most dangerous thing in aviation is the unknown. The Rotax
2-strokes aren't as reliable as they are because they're so fantastically
good quality (they're basically just beefed up snomo engines), but it's
because we KNOW so much about operating and maintaining them.
Incidentally, this is true of the 4-stroke designs as well. Knowledge is the
key there too...
Ok, nuff said....
LS
N646F
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "kfackler" <kfackler@ameritech.net>
> - low MOI limits on the Rotax gearboxes, particularly the B box. Some of
the
> most popular props on the market (like the IVO in 3-blades and the warp
> drive) are 50% or more over the MOI limits of the B box.
What does this mean, i.e., what is MOI?
-Ken Fackler
Kolb Mark II / A722KWF
Rochester MI
do not archive
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "kfackler" <kfackler@ameritech.net>
>>I made it part of my regular maintenance to drain and clean my tank every
6 months.
How do you clean them?
-Ken Fackler
Kolb Mark II / A722KWF
Rochester MI
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>What does this mean, i.e., what is MOI?
Oops, sorry. MOI means moment of inertia, the rotational mass of the
prop....
LS
N646F
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Fuel tank cleaning |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
I syphon the bottom of the fuel tank on my FS II regularly to remove debris
and whatever else is there.
I use a cheap squeeze bulb syphon hose/tube that you can get almost
anywhere.
I put about a two foot length of straitened coat hanger wire inside the
syphon end of the hose/tube to keep it ridged and then syphon the bottom of
the tank through a Mr Funnel into a small gas can.
This way, I don't lose any fuel and the tank is free of trash.
Works just like a pool cleaner.
Chris Mallory
Message 9
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| Subject: | 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (how it's flown) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
Listening to the thread of 2-strokes vs 4-strokes, please lets not forget there
were two great guys killed this past year. Both were flying reliable 4-stroke
912 engines. Al Reay and our own Norm Labhart.
This proves to me that it's not the engine itself and how reliable it is, but how
the plane is flown.
Ralph Burlingame
Original Firestar
19 years flying 2-strokes
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
Message 10
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| Subject: | 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (how it's flown) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
Sorry Guys that I got the date wrong on Norm's accident. It wasn't this past year,
but Nov 15, 2004. Still it was a 4-stroke engine that should not have quit
at a most critical time.
There was another accident at my home field where a 912 engine quit. The pilot
made a rough landing. Both on board survived without much injury.
Ralph Burlingame
Original Firstar
19 years flying it
-- "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
Listening to the thread of 2-strokes vs 4-strokes, please lets not forget there
were two great guys killed this past year. Both were flying reliable 4-stroke
912 engines. Al Reay and our own Norm Labhart.
This proves to me that it's not the engine itself and how reliable it is, but how
the plane is flown.
Ralph Burlingame
Original Firestar
19 years flying 2-strokes
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
|
| - mag end electric starters. The 2-stroke Rotaxen's weak spots are
generally
| the cranks (especially with the 582) and the ME electric starts can
do a lot
| of damage (especially the GPL starter, but even the Rotax model) -
you have
| that bendix flying out and smacking the starter gear which is like
taking a
| hammer to the edge of it. This puts a heavy side-loading shock on
the mag
| end of the crank, which can knock the journals out of alignment.
Also, they
| have to instantly get the entire moving system - crank and prop - up
to 300
| rpm, which puts a lot of stress on the crank (much moreso than the
pull
| start). You have no such problem at all on the bigger 4-strokes,
since
| their cranks are MUCH beefier even if they are press-fit designs.
|
| LS
|
LS/Gang:
What is the solution for the above? Do you think super glue would
help keep the cranks from twisting as the result of the electric "self
commencer" ???
Take care,
john h
Thinking the electric starter was one of the most significant safety
factors of the two stroke ultralight/light plane engine.............
Message 12
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| Subject: | New Kolber with dash! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
I'm new to the posting but not to the reading. As I have read everything
ever posted to this site through the archives. Very impressive and an
enormous help to a newbie Kolber.
The reason for my post is that I am in the midst of installing a new gauge /
dash panel in my 1990 Firestar KXP. My old gauges are for sale, picture
available; and include Westach Tach.(6-91) 3 1/8" with hour meter (317
hours), Westberg (6-91) single CHT 2", Westberg (2-90) duel EGT 2", and
Falcon Altimeter 3 1/8" Model ALTN 10INF-3. They all worked well when
removed. $ 190 for all. And now the new Dash / Gauge package going in their
place is the "Stratomaster" MaxiFlite Flight 2 and the E-1 Engine Monitor
from the Sport Flying Shop. I have submitted pictures of the new uncluttered
dash and these gauges for your viewing pleasure. I am told it will take
several days before they are posted. Anyone needing more info on the dash
or the instruments, e-mail me. Ditto on the used gauges.
Apparently there isn't very much information on these gauges or much
experience as they have been recently introduced to our market. This "Glass
panel" technology was always reserved for the big guys and their billfolds
but these two gauges with cables cost me $ 568 and cover ASI, RPM, hour
meter, CHT, EGT for both cylinders, VSI digitally as well as analog, flt.
time, engine time, fuel level, fuel rate and a multitude of other pieces of
valuable information and ALARMS for settable errors in ranges. As I get this
installed, running and am active in using in flight, I'll let everyone know
how successful they are.
The very best to everyone in the New Year !
Do not archive.
Ralph, the other "Ralph" Hoover
Kolb 1990 Firestar KXP
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: New Kolber with dash! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
Welcome aboard other Ralph,
I look forward to reading your report on the Stratomaster, the Sonex folks
seem to really like them.
Denny Rowe, Mk-3
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: New Kolber with dash!
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
>
> I'm new to the posting but not to the reading. As I have read everything
> ever posted to this site through the archives. Very impressive and an
> enormous help to a newbie Kolber.
>
> The reason for my post is that I am in the midst of installing a new gauge
> /
> dash panel in my 1990 Firestar KXP. My old gauges are for sale, picture
> available; and include Westach Tach.(6-91) 3 1/8" with hour meter (317
> hours), Westberg (6-91) single CHT 2", Westberg (2-90) duel EGT 2", and
> Falcon Altimeter 3 1/8" Model ALTN 10INF-3. They all worked well when
> removed. $ 190 for all. And now the new Dash / Gauge package going in
> their
> place is the "Stratomaster" MaxiFlite Flight 2 and the E-1 Engine Monitor
> from the Sport Flying Shop. I have submitted pictures of the new
> uncluttered
> dash and these gauges for your viewing pleasure. I am told it will take
> several days before they are posted. Anyone needing more info on the dash
> or the instruments, e-mail me. Ditto on the used gauges.
>
> Apparently there isn't very much information on these gauges or much
> experience as they have been recently introduced to our market. This
> "Glass
> panel" technology was always reserved for the big guys and their billfolds
> but these two gauges with cables cost me $ 568 and cover ASI, RPM, hour
> meter, CHT, EGT for both cylinders, VSI digitally as well as analog, flt.
> time, engine time, fuel level, fuel rate and a multitude of other pieces
> of
> valuable information and ALARMS for settable errors in ranges. As I get
> this
> installed, running and am active in using in flight, I'll let everyone
> know
> how successful they are.
>
> The very best to everyone in the New Year !
>
> Do not archive.
>
> Ralph, the other "Ralph" Hoover
> Kolb 1990 Firestar KXP
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>LS/Gang:
>
>What is the solution for the above?
The model "E" gearbox.
This one does the electric start the right way - it cranks the motor at the
PTO end off the drive gear. This way the inertia of the prop isn't
transmitted through the crank during starting.
More importantly, there's no side loading perpendicular to the crank due to
the hammering action of a bendix on the gear as there is on the mag end
starters.
The E box is also lighter by a few lbs and cheaper than a C box + mag end
starter...
Do you think super glue would
>help keep the cranks from twisting as the result of the electric "self
>commencer" ???
Personally, I won't buy any airplane with a 2-stroke that has a mag end
starter fitted to it, unless the motor is already runout or nearly so and
needs rebuilding (new crank) anyway.
E box, though, is ok.....
LS
N646F
>Take care,
>
>john h
>Thinking the electric starter was one of the most significant safety
>factors of the two stroke ultralight/light plane engine.............
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steven Green" <Kolbdriver@bellsouth.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen"
<lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>
> - mag end electric starters. The 2-stroke Rotaxen's weak spots are
generally
> the cranks (especially with the 582) and the ME electric starts can do a
lot
> of damage (especially the GPL starter, but even the Rotax model) - you
have
> that bendix flying out and smacking the starter gear which is like taking
a
> hammer to the edge of it. This puts a heavy side-loading shock on the mag
> end of the crank, which can knock the journals out of alignment. Also,
they
> have to instantly get the entire moving system - crank and prop - up to
300
> rpm, which puts a lot of stress on the crank (much moreso than the pull
> start). You have no such problem at all on the bigger 4-strokes, since
> their cranks are MUCH beefier even if they are press-fit designs.
> LS
> N646F
>
> do not archive
LS,
Do you have data from Rotax concerning the above statement?
I find it hard to believe that the electric starter, powerful as it is, has
enough torque to twist the crank. The starter drive (Bendix) is engaged in
the ring gear before the starter motor makes one full revolution so the
engine is pretty much accelerating to cranking speed along with the starter
motor. I don't see how it is hammered. As for accelerating the crankshaft
form 0 -300 rpm with the starter motor, what about 300 to 2200 when the
engine fires? Every power stroke on each cylinder also side loads the crank
much more than the starter does. The crank is even accelerating and
decelerating two times per revolution for an inline 2 cyl. 2 stroke.
As for reliability of 2 stroke engines, I have had 350 hours of reliable
service and only about 60 seconds of unreliable flying with them. (pto end
rod bearing failure at 210 hrs TTSN 582)
Steven Green
MKIII 912S
Do not archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>Do you have data from Rotax concerning the above statement?
Most of this comes from field experience. Mark Smith, for example, is a good
source of information on this as well (he does a couple of motors a week and
is pretty familiar with this). Most guys who've done a lot of motor work
will tell you similar things.
>I find it hard to believe that the electric starter, powerful as it is, has
>enough torque to twist the crank. The starter drive (Bendix) is engaged in
>the ring gear before the starter motor makes one full revolution so the
>engine is pretty much accelerating to cranking speed along with the starter
>motor. I don't see how it is hammered.
It's the action of the starter gear flying out to hit/engage the gear that
does it. After a whole bunch of times, it eventually can do damage to the
mag end of the crank. Typically, it shows up as higher than normal runout on
the mag end.
The mag end starter thing is a lot like running the high MOI props on the B
box - kind of a crapshoot. Most of the time it can take it and there isn't a
problem. But it's still definitely a mode of operation outside the limits
and does increase the liklihood of damage.
For what it's worth, the Rotax mag end starter isn't as bad as the GPL
starter (but you're still much better off with the E box).
As for accelerating the crankshaft
>form 0 -300 rpm with the starter motor, what about 300 to 2200 when the
>engine fires? Every power stroke on each cylinder also side loads the
>crank
>much more than the starter does.
>The crank is even accelerating and
>decelerating two times per revolution for an inline 2 cyl. 2 stroke.
The crank is designed to take these kinds of loads in these areas.
>As for reliability of 2 stroke engines, I have had 350 hours of reliable
>service and only about 60 seconds of unreliable flying with them. (pto end
>rod bearing failure at 210 hrs TTSN 582)
I've never had a mechanical failure of any kind with any of my Rotaxen (one
electrical problem with my 447 and that was it). I attribute that success
partly to, among other things, running props that meet the inertia limits of
the gearboxes I run (or using the clutch in case the prop is too heavy like
on my current plane) and not using mag-end electric starters on any of my
engines.
Also, with the E box available, I've never understood why anyone would use
anything else. It is set up the correct way, weighs less and is
cheaper.......
LS
N646F
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wayne T. McCullough" <blackbird754@alltel.net>
Aha......yes ..Rotax does know about the crank twist problem......My new
blue head 582 with an "E" box has the starter mounted to the gearbox and
pull rope on the mag end........I have read all of the info on the new
bluehead and ....it seems Rotax has done their homework with this new
motor....
Time will tell.............
Wayne McCullough
Kolbra 4
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Green" <Kolbdriver@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steven Green" <Kolbdriver@bellsouth.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen"
> <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>>
>> - mag end electric starters. The 2-stroke Rotaxen's weak spots are
> generally
>> the cranks (especially with the 582) and the ME electric starts can do a
> lot
>> of damage (especially the GPL starter, but even the Rotax model) - you
> have
>> that bendix flying out and smacking the starter gear which is like taking
> a
>> hammer to the edge of it. This puts a heavy side-loading shock on the mag
>> end of the crank, which can knock the journals out of alignment. Also,
> they
>> have to instantly get the entire moving system - crank and prop - up to
> 300
>> rpm, which puts a lot of stress on the crank (much moreso than the pull
>> start). You have no such problem at all on the bigger 4-strokes, since
>> their cranks are MUCH beefier even if they are press-fit designs.
>> LS
>> N646F
>>
>> do not archive
>
> LS,
>
> Do you have data from Rotax concerning the above statement?
>
> I find it hard to believe that the electric starter, powerful as it is,
> has
> enough torque to twist the crank. The starter drive (Bendix) is engaged
> in
> the ring gear before the starter motor makes one full revolution so the
> engine is pretty much accelerating to cranking speed along with the
> starter
> motor. I don't see how it is hammered. As for accelerating the
> crankshaft
> form 0 -300 rpm with the starter motor, what about 300 to 2200 when the
> engine fires? Every power stroke on each cylinder also side loads the
> crank
> much more than the starter does. The crank is even accelerating and
> decelerating two times per revolution for an inline 2 cyl. 2 stroke.
>
> As for reliability of 2 stroke engines, I have had 350 hours of reliable
> service and only about 60 seconds of unreliable flying with them. (pto
> end
> rod bearing failure at 210 hrs TTSN 582)
>
> Steven Green
> MKIII 912S
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke (how it's flown) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bill Vincent" <emailbill@chartermi.net>
Gang
I agree with Ralph ... I don't care how many strokes the engine has 2 - 4 or
100.. if the engine does not have spark or does not get enough fuel it will
quit.
Bill Vincent
FS II
Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Do Not Archive
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
>
> Listening to the thread of 2-strokes vs 4-strokes, please lets not forget
> there were two great guys killed this past year. Both were flying reliable
> 4-stroke 912 engines. Al Reay and our own Norm Labhart.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>From: "Wayne T. McCullough" <blackbird754@alltel.net>
>Reply-To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke
>Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:22:33 -0500
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wayne T. McCullough"
><blackbird754@alltel.net>
>
>Aha......yes ..Rotax does know about the crank twist problem......My new
>blue head 582 with an "E" box has the starter mounted to the gearbox and
>pull rope on the mag end........I have read all of the info on the new
>bluehead and ....it seems Rotax has done their homework with this new
>motor....
>
>
>Time will tell.............
I'm tellin' ya'll I'm not making all this stuff up ;).. Quite a few guys
have already spent a lot of money learning about this and I for one prefer
to just learn from their experience...
The E box is the best deal all around if you need electric start. Sure it's
1400 bucks, but it can't damage your crank and it works really well....
Personally, I think I'll always find a way to use a pull start if I run a
2-stroke if for no other reason than the weight savings. The only thing I
wish I could do with my firestar is pull the rope after getting into the
plane (my trike was setup this way and it was heaven). As it is, I have to
start outside the plane and there're obvious safety concerns with that. The
clutch helps with this a good bit though....
LS
N646F
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "frank & margie" <frank-margie@worldnet.att.net>
Don,
I understand there is a single cyl, 4 stroke Honda, used in Motocross bikes-----and
evidently it's about bulletproof, despite being really abused, at very high
RPM's, under very tough conditions. The guy who told me about them thought
they would make a good U/L engine-----are you familiar with anything fitting
that description?
Also, in the Dan Johnson article on the Hawk Ultra, in the Jan '06 U/L Flying,
he talks about a 2 cyl Jabiru in the developement stage. Supposed to be 45 HP
@ 85 lbs. Sure sounds interesting if it comes to pass.
Frank Clyma
-------------------------------
From: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
HI Will,
Hehe...ya pard...I would brag on how good the 447 has treated me on the
Flagfly...but then it would probably quit me on the very next flight too!
I think I understand you perfectly Will, and I believe you are very likely
correct...that your 503 has been...and is a very dependable engine, much
like most of them.
Message 21
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
In a message dated 1/1/2006 10:06:17 A.M. Central Standard Time,
kfackler@ameritech.net writes:
>>I made it part of my regular maintenance to drain and clean my tank every
6 months.
How do you clean them?
-Ken Fackler
Kolb Mark II / A722KWF
Rochester MI
Ken,
The best method I have found for cleaning a dirty gunked up gas tank is
to use the solvent of your choice along with 1or 2 oz. # 4 lead buck shock.
The tank has to be removed. Just pour in the buckshot and the solvent. Put on
the lid and shake, shake ,shake. Just make sure you get as many buckshot out
as you put in!!!!
Works well for me.
Ed
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Frank,
Yes I am very familiar with the Honda engines in the motocross bikes....and
yes, they are about bullet proof...but as an ultralite engine, I dont think
they are suitable at all due to the transmission built into the lower
crankcase...adds a ton of weight.
I have Looked at every single motorcycle engine Honda makes with an eye
towards light aircraft power, and I have found none suitable to be easily
dismembered from the transmission and adapted to a reduction drive
configuration.
If some ever does find out how to do this economically..they will have given
the light aircraft world a whole new and wonderful source of powerplants, as
the mass-production of Motorcycle engine makes them so much cheaper ...not
to mention the availability of wrecked bikes for super low prices.
Now I have NOT heard of the 2 cyl Jab....and it surely excites me......I am
going to head for their website right n ow as I dont subscribe to UL flying
anymore..
thx for the tip!
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 23
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| Subject: | [ Beauford Tuton ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Beauford Tuton <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Lists: Kolb-List
Subject: Discolored Fuel
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/beauford@tampabay.rr.com.01.01.2006/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
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| Subject: | [ Kem Dunnebacke ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Kem Dunnebacke <jboatm16@netzero.net>
Lists: Kolb-List
Subject: Kitfox
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| Subject: | [ Ralph Hoover ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Ralph Hoover <flht99reh@netzero.net>
Lists: Kolb-List,Ultralight-List
Subject: New Dash / Gauge package Kolb Firestar KXP 1990 w/503 DCDI
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| Subject: | [ Ralph Hoover ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Ralph Hoover <flht99reh@netzero.net>
Lists: Kolb-List,Ultralight-List
Subject: Old gauges from Kolb Firestar KXP 1990 w/503 DCDI
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| Subject: | Fwd: [ultralightchapter104] Prop starting by hand..... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Schnabel <tnfirestar2@yahoo.com>
From another list... a reminder, that safety should never be taken for granted.
Mike S
Manchester TN
Firestar2 503
do not archive
Note: forwarded message attached.
---------------------------------
Authentication-Results: mta223.mail.scd.yahoo.com
from=yahoogroups.com; domainkeys=pass (ok)
by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2006 04:32:22 -0000
by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2006 04:32:22 -0000
From: "beartooth37129" <barryglenn@comcast.net>
List-Id: <ultralightchapter104.yahoogroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ultralightchapter104-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ultralightchapter104] Prop starting by hand.....
--3baeppGnqT3s1OA8t5N9eqwwKDYcDvEtzDzc3vF
You guy's (and gals) already know what can happen when hand propping.
This was sent out on another email group. Be careful and safe in
the "New Year".
http://tinyurl.com/dqkhn
Barry
--3baeppGnqT3s1OA8t5N9eqwwKDYcDvEtzDzc3vF
<tt>
You guy's (and gals) already know what can happen when hand propping.
This was sent out on another email group. Be careful and safe in
the New Year.
http://tinyurl.com/dqkhn
Barry
</tt>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<tt>Visit your group "ultralightchapter104" on the web.
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "c b" <seedeebee@hotmail.com>
Fellow Kolbers,
A question about idle on the 912. My engine runs very rough below about 1800
RPM, but runs smoothly above that speed. At idle, if I actuate the choke,
the engine speed picks up considerably, like I hit the gas. The choke
doesn't cause the engine to run rough though.
Is this normal? If not, any ideas on what may be wrong?
Thanks and Happy New Year,
Chris Banys
MK III 912 UL
N10FR
Message 29
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> Kolb-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com
Dear Lister,
Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kolb-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
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