Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:09 AM - Re: 912 Idle Issues (robert bean)
2. 08:09 AM - Re: 912 Idle Issues (John Hauck)
3. 11:33 AM - 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (frank & margie)
4. 12:06 PM - Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (Jack B. Hart)
5. 01:00 PM - Re: Tie downs, gust locks (Dave & Eve Pelletier)
6. 02:53 PM - Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (Herb Gayheart)
7. 05:11 PM - Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (Charlie England)
8. 05:12 PM - Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (Don Gherardini)
9. 05:37 PM - Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (Herb Gayheart)
10. 06:05 PM - Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke / Clutch Question (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
11. 07:31 PM - Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (Herb Gayheart)
12. 08:17 PM - Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke (Michael Bigelow)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 912 Idle Issues |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
sounds like lean idle mixture.
-BB do not archive
On 2, Jan 2006, at 1:11 AM, c b wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "c b" <seedeebee@hotmail.com>
>
> Fellow Kolbers,
>
> A question about idle on the 912. My engine runs very rough below
> about 1800
> RPM, but runs smoothly above that speed. At idle, if I actuate the
> choke,
> the engine speed picks up considerably, like I hit the gas. The choke
> doesn't cause the engine to run rough though.
>
> Is this normal? If not, any ideas on what may be wrong?
>
> Thanks and Happy New Year,
>
> Chris Banys
> MK III 912 UL
> N10FR
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 912 Idle Issues |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Chris/All:
When my 912 or 921S demonstrated the same symptoms of rough idle it
was caused by the need for carb synchronization and idle mixture
adjustment, or the need to have the torsional vibration dampner
snugged up to specs, or all the above.
The bing carb does not use a choke. It uses an enrichner which, if
operated correctly, will preclude the use of an additional primer.
The enrichner, on each carb, is designed to initially dump a load of
fuel into the intake. In order to do this correctly, the throttle
must be completely closed to idle position. Do not crack the throttle
or the enrichner will not operate as designed. Once the engine fires,
the initial rich charge is pulled out of the enrichner well. The
engine is now running on the enrichner jet which allows more fuel and
a larger air circuit to increase idle speed for the cold engine.
Instructions for synchronizing carbs and adjusting idle mixture and
speed are included in the operators manual and service manual, which
can be accessed at the Kodiak Reasearch web site.
john h
----- Original Message -----
From: "c b" <seedeebee@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: 912 Idle Issues
| --> Kolb-List message posted by: "c b" <seedeebee@hotmail.com>
|
| Fellow Kolbers,
|
| A question about idle on the 912. My engine runs very rough below
about 1800
| RPM, but runs smoothly above that speed. At idle, if I actuate the
choke,
| the engine speed picks up considerably, like I hit the gas. The
choke
| doesn't cause the engine to run rough though.
|
| Is this normal? If not, any ideas on what may be wrong?
|
| Thanks and Happy New Year,
|
| Chris Banys
| MK III 912 UL
| N10FR
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Message 3
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| Subject: | 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "frank & margie" <frank-margie@worldnet.att.net>
Yes I am very familiar with the Honda engines in the motocross bikes....and
yes, they are about bullet proof...but as an ultralite engine, I dont think
they are suitable at all due to the transmission built into the lower
crankcase...adds a ton of weight.
I have Looked at every single motorcycle engine Honda makes with an eye
towards light aircraft power, and I have found none suitable to be easily
dismembered from the transmission and adapted to a reduction drive
configuration.
------------------------------------
Don,
Back in the early 80's, a friend put a Honda Oddesy ATV engine on a Weedhopper,
and it worked very well (it was a 2 stroke). He chose it because it did
not have a built in gearbox. You know where I'm going with this, and I know you've
already been there, but I'd like to hear what you did/didn't find. It's
hard not to be impressed with any Honda motor, and they build lots of them without
gearboxes---and today, most are 4 cycle. Sure would be nice if something
off a snowmobile/seamobile/genset/pump/whatever might work for a legal U/L.
I've also seen pics of a larger bike engine (not a Honda) installed in a light
plane, with the gearbox serving as the reduction unit. This list has had
postings on BMW conversions, and there is a Harley based demo at Sun 'n Fun (on
a test stand). How much does a Honda motocross motor weigh incl the trans?
Can it be lightened by removing some of the gears? Might the gearing hold up
if used as an RDU?
I for one really enjoy the info you have shared with this list----can I get
you to expound on the above?
Frank Clyma
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
Don & Frank,
Just before leaving for the holidays, I was Googling and I ran across a
fellow down in South America that had put a small Honda motorcycle engine on
a trike. After reading Don's post, I spent a couple of hours trying to
rediscover the page as I did not bookmark it. I failed. But as I recall it
was running some where around 12,000 rpm. The fellow used the gear box and
modified it so that he could mount the propeller.
May be in another day or two I can recall what I was originally looking for
and search again. It is amazing what people are doing.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
02:30 PM 1/2/06 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "frank & margie" <frank-margie@worldnet.att.net>
>
>Yes I am very familiar with the Honda engines in the motocross bikes....and
>yes, they are about bullet proof...but as an ultralite engine, I dont think
>they are suitable at all due to the transmission built into the lower
>crankcase...adds a ton of weight.
>
>I have Looked at every single motorcycle engine Honda makes with an eye
>towards light aircraft power, and I have found none suitable to be easily
>dismembered from the transmission and adapted to a reduction drive
>configuration.
>------------------------------------
>
>Don,
> Back in the early 80's, a friend put a Honda Oddesy ATV engine on a Weedhopper,
and it worked very well (it was a 2 stroke). He chose it because it did
not have a built in gearbox. You know where I'm going with this, and I know
you've already been there, but I'd like to hear what you did/didn't find. It's
hard not to be impressed with any Honda motor, and they build lots of them without
gearboxes---and today, most are 4 cycle. Sure would be nice if something
off a snowmobile/seamobile/genset/pump/whatever might work for a legal U/L.
>
> I've also seen pics of a larger bike engine (not a Honda) installed in a light
plane, with the gearbox serving as the reduction unit. This list has had
postings on BMW conversions, and there is a Harley based demo at Sun 'n Fun (on
a test stand). How much does a Honda motocross motor weigh incl the trans?
Can it be lightened by removing some of the gears? Might the gearing hold up
if used as an RDU?
>
> I for one really enjoy the info you have shared with this list----can I get
you to expound on the above?
>
>Frank Clyma
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Tie downs, gust locks |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" <pelletier@cableone.net>
> Dave Pelletier of AZ has fabricated a joystick lock with a ring (to go on
> the stick) and wratchet straps that is about as good >as that method can
> get. Dave, pics?
> M. Domenic Perez
> Vaughn, NM
> FS II
Domenic & All
Sent the pics and descriptions to Photoshare today.
AzDave
Do Not Archive
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
Jack and all
I ran across a CBR600 powered tandem seater at Lucedale Miss fly in
three years ago.. The guy use the whole engine.. He had the gear shift
and clutch levers in the cockpit.. Used a roller chain and when I called
him, he said that he has several hundred hours on the combo.. He lives
south of Lucedale as I recall. Said that he was installing a cbr 900 in
a Pulsar.
Ronnie Smith gave me his phone number.. Herb
do not archive
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 15:12:26 -0500 "Jack B. Hart"
<jbhart@onlyinternet.net> writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart"
> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>
> Don & Frank,
>
> Just before leaving for the holidays, I was Googling and I ran
> across a
> fellow down in South America that had put a small Honda motorcycle
> engine on
> a trike. After reading Don's post, I spent a couple of hours trying
> to
> rediscover the page as I did not bookmark it. I failed. But as I
> recall it
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Herb Gayheart wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
>
>Jack and all
>
> I ran across a CBR600 powered tandem seater at Lucedale Miss fly in
>three years ago.. The guy use the whole engine.. He had the gear shift
>and clutch levers in the cockpit.. Used a roller chain and when I called
>him, he said that he has several hundred hours on the combo.. He lives
>south of Lucedale as I recall. Said that he was installing a cbr 900 in
>a Pulsar.
>
> Ronnie Smith gave me his phone number.. Herb
>
> do not archive
>
I've seen what had to be the same a/c at a flyin N/E of Jackson MS,
about 100-125 mi north of Lucedale, so he obviously isn't afraid to
travel with it. He told me that the shifter was so he could use a lower
gear when carrying passengers.
Charlie
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Frank,
The installation Herb is talking about is really the only one I have seen
with a Honda Motorcycle flying successfully. The key to his success I
believe is that the plane fits the engine....in other words..it works
because that particular airplane...a Drifter/Brezzy looking kind of thing
has alot of wing and isn't expected to go very fast. I have lost contact
with this gent..and I always wondered how the long chain would work. There
is a pic of this bird and engine installation at VULA.com
I believe he told me he took off in 3rd and shifted to 4th after leveling
out.
Now...I can easily believe the old Honda 250 2 cycle from an odyssey would
fly a weedhopper. I sold weedhoppers back in the late 70s as a dealer and
remember well how they flew with very little power. also remember a
weedhopper weighed in at 180 lbs soaking wet and had a huge wing. The plane
fit the engine.
What we have to deal with today is a crop of birds that have evolved in
their design to "Fit" the engines, and about all of them have been tweaked
to perform with the snowmobile 2 cycles that have been slightly tweaked to
fit a propeller application instead of a torque converter drive.
What I really think would be the answer is to pick another source of engines
and design some airplanes to fit them better.
Some of you have seen and know of the Legal Eagle flying with a 32 hp
industrial v-twin.(generac)...This is a better match than a Firestar and a
motorcycle engine. IN fact their was a fella who installed a 25 hp Kohler on
a Firestar and claimed it flew really well...until the crankshaft broke off
at the PTO end, which is a common trait among Kohlers even in the lawn
tractor biz. Briggs Vanguards are now up to 35 hp and are very well built
engines and I bet a buck we will see alot of those on airplanes like the
legal eagle's,N-3's and similar planes with alot of wing. Talk about
range!..todays V-twin engines burn from 1.5 to 2 gallons an hour at WOT and
full load.
Anyway..back to the motorcycle engines..
If we operate a Honda motorcycle engine...just about any of them, at a load
that will limit the rpms to 80 or 90 % of the max rpms (like we do our 2
cycle Rotax's) the lifespan will decrease dramatically. These engines are
designed to fit the application and environment they work in...and a full
load at 100% throttle on a dirtbike...or a street bike is always a momentary
thing in the machines they power. to get a motorcycle into the same load
that we regularly operate our airplane engines at...we would need a huge ,
steep hill and a big ole heavy trailer behind the bike...and the hill would
be so steep that about the time we shifted into 2nd or 3rd gear, the engine
would not turn up to the redline. ANd then we hold it there, without letting
off....for an hour or more.
Let me tell you we are gonna wear that Honda out in a hurry men. It will
begin to heat up without any let up in the load, and when an engine cannot
get rid of the heat..we will melt it down.
So...when we look at that CBR600...aprox a 80 hp engine at 12,000 rpms, it
will only work if it is allowed to operate at a continuous load that will
absorb about 50 hp at half the rpms, then it will be able to get rid of the
heat. The transmission allows him to run it at a higher hp level for
takeoff,(when the load is highest) and then shift to reduce the engines rpms
and keep the propspeed up...sounds great and works well I bet...just as long
as you have an airplane that will support to 200 lbs of engine and
transmission and I bet a 25lbs of chain,, and you are not looking for much
of a rate of climb.
Then there is a fella with a Neuport or a spad replica with that Yamaha
v-twin motorcycle engine..very interesting I thought..useing the shaft drive
output and fixing a prop on it..anybody hear how it is getting along?
another plane with alot of wing...2 of em in fact!
Frank, you ask if some gears could be removed from the transmission to save
weight and would they rest hold up if used as a Reduction unit....I cannot
answer these questions...I have pondered them myself for a long time.
Would the straight cut gears in that trans stand up to propeller vs piston
power pulses?
I think a fella could take out a few and replace em with spacers probably.
MY son and I used to be in the tractor pulling sport, and the things we did
there to engines and transmissions would make an engineer spit in disdain!
BUt we broke alot of things too!
How much does the engine and transmission weigh...cannot say..I dont know.
we havent really even specified which motorcross bike we are gonna di-sect
as a donor to this project.
The BMW twins are being used because the transmission will unbolt from the
crankcase, and because they are a lower rpm and high torque engine of high
quality. The have exceptional head cooling ability for a motorcyle engine.
I think there is no doubt they are the best motorcycle engine for aircraft
adaptation.
We need continuous duty designed engines for our sport...and the industrial
engine market is quickly approaching a place where they will have just what
the back to basic flying machines need...the difference this time
around...is the engines will last about 20 time longer than the ones we
started with back in the late 70s.
BTW....a 24 hp honda costs about 1100 complete with electric starter. The
31 hp Vanguard is about 1500..and the 35 will probably be a 100 or so
more...RETAIL....!
Just think...if Dennis and Homer would have set out to design that firefly
to fit the v-twin industrials we have today instead of the 447...hmmmmmmmmm
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
Charlie
I have often thought that this set up would work on a modified MkIII
fuselage.. Set the engine on a plate that is attached to the boom tube h
section--or an h section modified such that there are two through bolts
spaced a foot or more apart to attach the engine.. Lowering the engine
three feet or so would be a good thing.. IMHO. Herb
do not archive
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:10:31 -0600 Charlie England
<ceengland@bellsouth.net> writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England
> <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>
> Herb Gayheart wrote:
>
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
> >
> >Jack and all
> >
> > I ran across a CBR600 powered tandem seater at Lucedale Miss fly
> in
> >three years ago.. The guy use the whole engine.. He had the gear
> shift
> >and clutch levers in the cockpit.. Used a roller chain and when I
> called
> >him, he said that he has several hundred hours on the combo.. He
> lives
> >south of Lucedale as I recall. Said that he was installing a cbr
> 900 in
> >a Pulsar.
> >
> > Ronnie Smith gave me his phone number.. Herb
> >
> > do not archive
> >
>
> I've seen what had to be the same a/c at a flyin N/E of Jackson MS,
>
> about 100-125 mi north of Lucedale, so he obviously isn't afraid to
>
> travel with it. He told me that the shifter was so he could use a
> lower
> gear when carrying passengers.
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke VS 4 Stroke / Clutch Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
lucien stavenhagen wrote:
> Personally, I think I'll always find a way to use a pull start if I run a
> 2-stroke if for no other reason than the weight savings. The only thing I
> wish I could do with my firestar is pull the rope after getting into the
> plane (my trike was setup this way and it was heaven). As it is, I have to
> start outside the plane and there're obvious safety concerns with that. The
> clutch helps with this a good bit though....
>
> LS
> N646F
>
> do not archive
Lucien,
How much experience do you have with the clutch? I was considering
putting one on my plane. How long do they last? Have you ever had any
slippage? Is it worth the money? ~ Earl
--
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
Frank,Don all
To clarify---I talked to the fellow for an hour or more.. Lives in
Pascagoula, Ms area.. ( I said south of Lucedale to keep from trying to
spell Pascagoula!! ;-) )
He told me that he had 300+ hours on the chain drive, that he had
removed an idler pulley on the long chain since it caused more vibration
than it solved.. He also said that the only thing that he had replaced
was the drive sproket and that was just on gut feeling since he could see
no wear.. The o ring chain appears to be really tough..
No doubt that the installation was heavy--water cooled engine with a
heavy gear box..
I seem to recall that he took off in 2nd and ran the rpms right up
there... 12k or so.. Had a respectible dia prop.. Likely 68 inches or
more.. Cruised in third or 4th.. Cannot remember his cruise rpms? Likely
50 to 60 % of full power? My recollections from three years ago.. As
I said Ronnie Smith at South Miss. Light Aircraft has his number..
I priced CBR engines at a salvage yard a few months ago and recall
that the price was in the $1200 range.. I could have bought a late model
BMW engine for 1500 bucks.. Properly engineered , I suspect that the BMW
engine installations can approach 4 cycle Rotax engines in Reliability..
Don---ever use the red IVO prop?? You mention 2 cyl Generac and
Briggs engines in the 30+ HP range.... I currently fly a Global half vw
on an N3 pup. It is in the 85 to 90 lb range and is advertised to put
out 35 to 37 hp. I cruise at 65 yo 70 at 3150 rpms using less than 2
gals an hour.. It is my go somewhere plane while the Firefly is my
sportier ride! That is if I ever get the 447 figured out.. took the jugs
off and de carbed and checked that the rings were free.. I will replace
end seals next and go over the carb again.. Timing was dead on.. Shore
would break my heart and wallet to pack it up and send it off to Count
Suckula!! :-)
Herb
do not archive
On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:16:57 -0600 "Don Gherardini"
<donghe@one-eleven.net> writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don Gherardini"
> <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
> Frank,
>
> The installation Herb is talking about is really the only one I have
> seen
> with a Honda Motorcycle flying successfully. The key to his success
> I
> believe is that the plane fits the engine....in other words..it
> works
> because that particular airplane...a Drifter/Brezzy looking kind of
> thing
> has alot of wing and isn't expected to go very fast. I have lost
> contact
> with this gent..and I always wondered how the long chain would work.
> There
> is a pic of this bird and engine installation at VULA.com
>
> I believe he told me he took off in 3rd and shifted to 4th after
> leveling
> out.
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Michael Bigelow" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
The Honda 4 stroke dirt bikes have very light, reliable, 4 storke, liquid
cooled engines. The only problem is that the transmission is a part of the
motor and makes it pretty heavy. My 650 CC motor is rated around 50 HP and
weighs about 120 pounds with the gearbox. You could never take enough gears
out to make any kind of meaningful difference in that weight. That combined
with the very short chain drive output shaft makes a chain drive the only
practical way to drive a propellor from that engine... Chains break,
require regular maintainence, and wear out. I would not want a chain dirven
prop on my plane... I also agree that these motorcycle engines are not made
to put out anywhere near rated power for extended periods of times. An
engine running near 12,000 RPM most of the time will not last very long. In
typical use, those motorcycle engines see their maximum RPM's for less than
a minute at a time. I would think that a Honda motorcycle engine running at
anywhere near rated power would wear out quickly and be unreliable.
I think the 2 stroke rotax engines are more practical and even more reliable
than trying to push a motorcycle engine way beyond what it was designed to
do.
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