---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/12/06: 51 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:06 AM - Jabiru 2 cylinder - is it real (jerb) 2. 04:52 AM - Re: Re: Verner Engines (Kirk Smith) 3. 06:17 AM - Re: Battery box (Paul Petty) 4. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: Verner Engines (Jack B. Hart) 5. 06:31 AM - Re: Gas Tanks larger than 5 gallons (Paul Petty) 6. 07:27 AM - Re: John W's SP Article (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 7. 07:32 AM - Re: Jabiru 2 cylinder - is it real (ray anderson) 8. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Verner Engines (John Hauck) 9. 08:31 AM - Re: John W's SP Article (woody) 10. 09:17 AM - Re: Verner Engines (John Williamson) 11. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: Verner Engines (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 12. 11:03 AM - brake shoes (boyd) 13. 11:25 AM - Re: Wing Attach Spacers (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL) 14. 11:32 AM - Kolb List Participation (John Hauck) 15. 11:43 AM - glider wings on UltraStar? (Masqqqqqqq@aol.com) 16. 11:56 AM - Re: Verner Engines (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL) 17. 12:56 PM - washout/trim (rlaird) 18. 01:14 PM - Re: washout/trim (rlaird) 19. 01:25 PM - Re: washout/trim (robert bean) 20. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Verner Engines (mike moulai) 21. 01:55 PM - Re: Kolb List Participation (Kirk Smith) 22. 02:08 PM - Re: Re: washout/trim (mike moulai) 23. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: washout/trim (lucien stavenhagen) 24. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Verner Engines (lucien stavenhagen) 25. 03:34 PM - Re: Wing Attach Spacers?... (John Jung) 26. 04:26 PM - Re: washout/trim (HShack@aol.com) 27. 04:36 PM - 40 MPH Stall (Ralph Hoover) 28. 04:48 PM - Re: Kolb List Participation (Mike Schnabel) 29. 05:16 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Richard Pike) 30. 05:20 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Ralph) 31. 05:24 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (possums) 32. 05:33 PM - Re: Verner Engines (John Williamson) 33. 05:34 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (James Tripp) 34. 05:50 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (flht99reh) 35. 05:50 PM - Re: washout/trim (JetPilot) 36. 05:57 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (flht99reh) 37. 06:06 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (flht99reh) 38. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: 40 MPH Stall (lucien stavenhagen) 39. 06:13 PM - Re: Re: 40 MPH Stall (flht99reh) 40. 06:26 PM - Re: Verner Engines (JetPilot) 41. 06:29 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Larry Cottrell) 42. 06:31 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Mike Pierzina) 43. 06:33 PM - Re: glider wings on UltraStar? (JetPilot) 44. 07:19 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (possums) 45. 08:00 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (possums) 46. 08:07 PM - Re: glider wings on UltraStar? (Richard Swiderski) 47. 08:33 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Possum) 48. 08:42 PM - Re: Kolb List Participation (Don G) 49. 09:33 PM - test (Larry Cottrell) 50. 09:37 PM - Re: test (Matt Dralle) 51. 09:42 PM - [ Dave Pelletier ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:39 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Kolb-List: Jabiru 2 cylinder - is it real --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb So is Jabiru really going to build a 2 cylinder to compete with smaller Rotax's. I spoke with the man himself a couple years ago at Sun & Fun, he seemed very firm like he didn't want to do business in that competitive area. They had an article in the Australian UL magazine back in 97 I believe it was about having developed a 2 cylinder but then didn't produce it. Much be looking to increase their revenue stream. heard any definite when there to be on the market? jerb At 06:46 PM 1/11/2006, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson > >I keep my UltraStar just about 400 - 500 feet from the Jabiru >'factory' or US distribution facility now located on the >Shelbyville, TN airport. It's here that customers can come and >assemble their aircraft with the Jabiru engines. It's a great >looking combination and there is a couple of customers assembling >every day. I believe it takes about two weeks and is licensed as >homebuilt with the customer doing a little over 50% of the work to >be legal. This has been going on now for about 8-10 months and a lot >of them have flown away with happy owners. I don't know of any that >have come back or reported trouble, so the Jabiru engine can't be >too mediocre. There seems to be a line up of customers waiting for a >spot to build and fly. Business is so good that Jabiru has asked >for a new building twice as large. They are getting ready to produce >a two cylinder version of the engine. > >JetPilot wrote: --> Kolb-List message >posted by: "JetPilot" > > >David.Lehman wrote: > > [Well John, I suppose this is a major "DUH!", but the local > engine is available because he replaced the Verner on his GT500 > with a new Jabiru... > > > > DVD > > >Hahaha, not to bright a guy, he went from buying a horrible engine >to buying a mediocre engine... > >The Roatx 912S is a far superrior engine to either of those. I would >save for as long as it takes to get a great engine rather than throw >away what you have on something you will never be happy with. > >Michael A. Bigelow > >-------- >NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3041#3041 > > >--------------------------------- > Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your > hands ASAP. > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:42 AM PST US From: "Kirk Smith" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" One of the things about the Verner engine that made me hesitant was the hp per cylinder. They are getting 40 hp/cyl. Everything else that I was aware of in the 80-100 hp range gets from 15-25 hp/cyl. Jump up to the O-320 Lycomings and then there's 40 hp/cyl but this is a much more massive engine than a Verner. Just seemed to me they were over stressing that little engine. I'd like to see how a Jabiru 2200 would perform on a Kolb with a gear reduction unit so a larger prop could be spun. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:09 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Battery box From: "Paul Petty" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" Thanks Ralph. I made the battery box from scrap aluminum laying around the shop. -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3251#3251 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:24 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" At 07:34 PM 1/11/06 -0800, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" > >The data sheet says that any of those engines fit the power, weight, etc. parameters for the airplane... So they are saying that particular airplane will safely fly with any of those engines. That does NOT mean that those engines are all equal, or even that they are good engines.... > >As to why the verner has such a bad reputation, because its a really crapppy engine.... Michael, Do you have personal experience with the Verner? The same can be said about any engine, such as, a Model T and Model A Ford that are flying in Pietenpols. The plane was designed around the engine. These people are not crazy. They just like the idea, sound, feel and smell of the engine in flight. I found the Rotax 447 to be very uncivil and I changed engines to something I thought would be better. And so far, except for a few coolant leaks that were my fault, it has been a very good engine. There are so many "good" engines out there that never make it to market. The market place determines what is a good engine. The trick is to match the engine to the plane and to meet the owner's expectations and desire for performance too. If an engine does not work out, one can build a plane on which it will work well, adapt it to some non-aircraft use, sell it to someone else, or use it for a boat anchor. I am sure that there are those out there that love their HKS, Hirth, and yes even the Verner engine. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:35 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Gas Tanks larger than 5 gallons From: "Paul Petty" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" John, What did was cut one steel tube and make a sleeve on each side to reinstall the tube after the fuel tank was installed. Then I made a cardboard model of the fuel tank and shipped it to Mark German of Areofab. He welded up a nice aluminum fuel tank complete with stainless steel hold downs and made me custom aluminum saddels for it to rest on the tail boom. Very pleased :D -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3258#3258 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:55 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: John W's SP Article --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Johns/All John H thanks for the post. I can't wait to see the real thing. Waiting for my mail to be forwarded. John Williamson - Thanks for writing the article. This is a wonderful!!!! It makes it very clear that you don't have to fly 900 miles per hour and spend a zillion dollars to travel in your own airplane. The our group, industry, and Kolb owes you one big "hoo raaaaaaaaa!!!!". OK the rest of you start writing. Mary at EAA's Sport Pilot will publish if you write. So much more fun reading about our airplanes than those fast $$$ ones. You don't suppose that we could talk that Alaska pilot into sharing some of his flights with the world. Do not archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:37 PM Subject: Kolb-List: John W's SP Article > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > http://www.c-gate.net/~ppetty/Hauck's%20Stuff/Kolb%20Stuff/John%20W's%20SP%20Article/ > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:47 AM PST US From: ray anderson Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Jabiru 2 cylinder - is it real --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson I'll try and get the latest info the next time I go to the airport and post it here. I hope they are serious about it, Ray UltraStar ..TN DO NOT ARCHIVE jerb wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb So is Jabiru really going to build a 2 cylinder to compete with smaller Rotax's. I spoke with the man himself a couple years ago at Sun & Fun, he seemed very firm like he didn't want to do business in that competitive area. They had an article in the Australian UL magazine back in 97 I believe it was about having developed a 2 cylinder but then didn't produce it. Much be looking to increase their revenue stream. heard any definite when there to be on the market? jerb > > >--------------------------------- > Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your > hands ASAP. > > --------------------------------- Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:56 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" better | some of what I was trying to say so I decided to share the following with | the group. | | <<< Subject: Re: Kolb-List: John W's SP Article --> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" > Rick is right about writing articles. Have any of you wondered about all the Challenger articles that are written. You must think they are the best aircraft in the world judjing by the owners stories. I think they just have a great PR machine. An owner pilot writes in about a trip and the Challenger PR group rewrites it and makes it into a thinly veiled advertisment for Challengers. Great business idea and they are to be congratulated on the effort. I have flown 2 Challengers. I must be spoilled by Kolb because I wouldn't give a rats ass for either of them and beg off on any future offers to fly one.. Just my opinion but they don't seem to live up to the great stories I have read about them. Kolbers should be writing a bit more. John should write something on his adventures and Beauford should write one for the humour. Newbies on the list unfortunately have not read one of Beaufords rants or about his kitten fuzzbutt. They were classics. The unsubscribe page does not seem to be working for me so untill it does I will keep reading the posts and mouthing off on occasion. > John Williamson - Thanks for writing the article. This is a wonderful!!!! It > makes it very clear that you don't have to fly 900 miles per hour and spend > a zillion dollars to travel in your own airplane. The our group, industry, > and Kolb owes you one big "hoo raaaaaaaaa!!!!". > > OK the rest of you start writing. Mary at EAA's Sport Pilot will publish if > you write. So much more fun reading about our airplanes than those fast $$$ > ones. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:32 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines From: "John Williamson" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" Hi Rick and All, I flew the Verner 133. I just don't advertise that I flew it because it was such a BAD experience. Cheap is not always a bad way to go. Expensive is not always the best way to go. I tried a cheap engine and I got a cheap engine. I tried an expensive engine and got a very reliable engine. -------- John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolbra, 912ULS http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3309#3309 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:44 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" John That's fine but BAD is rather subjective. Was there allot of vibration, lack of thrust (more or less than the Jabiru), high temps, high fuel burn, good or bad climb, slow or fast cruise etc. Please give us something we can evaluate(more or less than the Jabiru and/or 912). I assume you are referring to the replacement engine? Most of us aren't A & Es but if the price was right maybe your BAD would be FINE?????? John I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass. You are the only one that has had this experience or at least telling us they did. Please, I would like the details. Do not archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Williamson" Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 12:17 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" > > > Hi Rick and All, > > I flew the Verner 133. > > I just don't advertise that I flew it because it was such a BAD > experience. > > Cheap is not always a bad way to go. Expensive is not always the best way > to go. > > I tried a cheap engine and I got a cheap engine. > > I tried an expensive engine and got a very reliable engine. > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:04 AM PST US From: "boyd" Subject: Kolb-List: brake shoes --> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" I never have had any luck cleaning shoes with oil in them and getting a satisfactory result. If you haven't already make sure that the shoe your having problems with is actually being forced against the drum properly. Bryan Green (Elgin SC) I think I mentioned the other day to use a can of brake parts cleaner in an aerosol can.. If that doesn't work... take to some who does steam cleaning and blast it with live steam.. I had an aluminum gas tank that developed a leak... I wanted to get it welded instead of just pouring in the slosher sealer.. The welder would not weld on a fuel tank until it had been to a steam cleaner.. I took an old gas water heater and converted it so I could put a propane burner in it.. Put about 5 gal of water in it and ran 2 old washer machine hoses from the top of the heater without any restrictions into the fuel tank... then let it run for about an hour.. couldn't smell any thing in the tank and welded it without incidence.. For something like a brake shoe.. Maybe a dry cleaner company that uses steam to get out stains... Boyd ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:11 AM PST US From: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Attach Spacers --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL << I worry about a shear load spread out over that much length of the pin... Or is this simply a low load area such that this is plenty of strength? >> Lucien, and Fellow Kolbers - The wing spar clevis pin in our Kolbs is a 5/16 inch diameter pin. It is made of high-strength alloy steel, rated at 125,000 pounds per square inch. If you do the math, you'll find that this little pin can withstand about 10,000 pounds in shear. Since our planes have TWO of these pins supporting wings, it would take 20,000 pounds of wing force to fail a pin. My Mark-3, when loaded to its gross weight of 1000 lbs, would have to pull 20 g's to do this. (Caveat: John Hauck, who routinely flies his Miss P'Fer at 1200 lbs, would only have to pull 17 g's ... be careful, John!) With this kind of airframe load, it's a safe bet that something else is gonna fail first. Dennis Kirby Cedar Crest, NM Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:21 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb List Participation From: "John Hauck" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Everyone: I doubt anyone on this List has been knocked down, drug around, kicked between the legs, slandered, slaughtered the way I have been over the last 8 years I have closely following what my fellow Kolb friends are doing. At times, it is very, very difficult to put up with this kind of crap, but I love my little Kolb airplanes and the people that build and fly them. So I have hung around. Email is a tough communications medium, and folks are going to take the written word differently than some people intend for it to be taken. I know. I do that myself, only to find out later I was wrong. When I am wrong, I usually post a msg to the List admitting it. Back copy msgs about what is going on on the Kolb List, about what is being discussed, does not help the Kolb List. Fear of being right or wrong because of what you would like to post to the List, but for some reason are afraid to post do not help the rest of us understand what is being discussed. I have always felt the Kolb List was one big family. Right or wrong, we are still family. When I post my thoughts and feelings about my experiences or what I prefer, I feel it is my right to be able to do that without being attacked for it. Same as anybody else feels about their posts. If I like the engine I fly with, it is my right to have that preference. If you don't like it, it is also completely alright. Doesn't mean that I am bad mouthing anybody else's stuff. Come on gang, let's be big boys and girls and try to carry on a decent discussion without feeling we are right or wrong, or somebody is going to dump on us because of our feelings and preferences. By chance if they do, hit the delete button and drive on. I am a slow learner................ I am as interested in alternative power for Kolbs as anyone else on the Kolb List. Because I fly with a Kolb powered by a Rotax does not take away from my natural curosity to learn about other means of power. I have recently gotten involved with antique tractors, but I don't fight with folks that drive Dodge or Ford trucks because I drive a Nissan pickup. Nor do I bad mouth my friend that owns a different brand tractor than mine. There is a lot to learn from everyone, the good, the bad, the right and the wrong. I want to encourage everyone to post to the List about what they are doing and how they are doing it. I have been accused of burning up most of the band width on the Kolb List, and maybe I do. Maybe if some more of you all would sit down and do some sharing instead of complaining, we could all benefit by it and I would not be so wordy. :-) Take care my friends, john h hauck's holler, alabama MKIII/912ULS -------- John Hauck MKIII/912ULS hauck's holler, alabama Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3352#3352 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:52 AM PST US From: Masqqqqqqq@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: glider wings on UltraStar? --> Kolb-List message posted by: Masqqqqqqq@aol.com I hope this doesn't sound too outlandish.......but...... I have 1984 Kolb UltraStar which I purchased used in 1994. I've flown it often, and love it. It's powered by a 447 Rotax. Lately, I find myself interested in unpowered gliders. Here's the question: Has anyone ever replaced the wings on an UltraStar with the larger glider style wings, removed or downsized the engine, and had a glider? I suspect there would be some balance issues to address, but I'm wondering if it's been done. Rich Iverson Stevens Point, WI do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:16 AM PST US From: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL Rick Neilsen wrote: << I still haven't heard any evaluation on a Verner engine (statistics or facts not just hear say) ... Please keep a open mind and allow others to contribute. >> Kolb Friends - This thread began when David Key asked the simple question, "Whaddaya all think about the Verner engine?" As a former Verner owner on my Kolb, I feel obliged to pass on my experiences. Most of you might recall that I originally built my Mark-III with a Verner-1400 80 hp engine. Because of reliability issues with the Verner, I replaced it this past summer with a 912ul. Although the engine itself ran beautifully, the reduction drive unit was experiencing some kind of torsional harmonic vibration that was causing the prop hub bolts to fail on a regular (every 6 hours of flight time) basis. Although the US distributor from whom I purchased this engine has put forth exceptional effort in working with me by replacing the broken parts and trying to help me solve the problem, we were getting zero support or help from the factory in Czech Republic. I'm presently very happy with my Rotax-912. I'm sure there are Verner engines out there that have accumulated hundreds of hours of trouble-free service for their owners. Unfortunately for me, mine was not one of them. Dennis Kirby 1996 Mark-III, "Magic Bike" in Cedar Crest, NM ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:04 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: washout/trim From: "rlaird" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "rlaird" The Kolb MkIIIc/912ULS I have has a strong tendency to turn left. The bungee cord does a fair job of countering that, but I'd like to effect a bit more nominal solution. So, I have TWO questions: 1) I'm thinking about adding an aileron trim. Can anyone suggest approaches to doing that, suggest methods/materials, and maybe even details on how to do it. 2) I've been told by at least two people, "oh, check your washout!" as if to say that might solve my strong-left-turning-tendency. And although I have a very general idea what washout is, I would have no idea about how to MEASURE it and then, if were "wrong", how to correct it. Any constructive comments? -- Robert -------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert Laird MkIIIc/912ULS Houston, TX http://www.Texas-Flyer.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3382#3382 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: washout/trim From: "rlaird" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "rlaird" I just realized that I didn't describe my problem correctly. The MkIII does "turn left", it banks left. In other words, if I apply right aileron enough to keep the wings level, then the plane flies fairly straight. So, it's not rudder correction I need (I think), it's aileron..... I think. -------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert Laird MkIIIc/912ULS Houston, TX http://www.Texas-Flyer.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3389#3389 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:55 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: washout/trim --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean Aileron trim is the easy way to go. A foot long tab (along the aileron) that is only perhaps an inch wide would be less conspicuous than my shorter/more stickinout temporary/permanent style. I do intend, after more important matters, to eliminate it. Either by angle of attack (washout/in) or some tailfeather adjustment. Without messing with the front spar attach parts you can create some offset at the rear attach universal joint. That point can also adjust sweep angle with a spacer at the face of the frame mating junction. -BB On 12, Jan 2006, at 3:55 PM, rlaird wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "rlaird" > > The Kolb MkIIIc/912ULS I have has a strong tendency to turn left. The > bungee cord does a fair job of countering that, but I'd like to effect > a bit more nominal solution. > > So, I have TWO questions: > > 1) I'm thinking about adding an aileron trim. Can anyone suggest > approaches to doing that, suggest methods/materials, and maybe even > details on how to do it. > > 2) I've been told by at least two people, "oh, check your washout!" > as if to say that might solve my strong-left-turning-tendency. And > although I have a very general idea what washout is, I would have no > idea about how to MEASURE it and then, if were "wrong", how to correct > it. > > Any constructive comments? > > -- Robert > > -------- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Robert Laird > MkIIIc/912ULS > Houston, TX > http://www.Texas-Flyer.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3382#3382 > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:18 PM PST US From: "mike moulai" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" Jack/All, I think thae HADS for the X-Air sums it up. Remember speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?. My Xtra with NEW type Jab 2200 cruises at 75kt all day long (approx 84mph I think it is) more if I open the tap up< considering the price difference to the 912 I think I can live with the minute speed difference, and feel happy about the much simpler engine turning much slower than all other installations and the muck lighter weight than the other 4 strokers. Mike Xtra/New type Jab with big prop 135hrs of purring at no more than 3100 rpm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart" Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:18 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" > > Kolbers, > > I was curious as to why the Verner seems to have such a bad reputation. I > stumbled across the following site: > > http://www.bmaa.info/upload/techdocs/20041061154110.Hm01_22.pdf > > BRITISH MICROLIGHT AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION > HOMEBUILT AIRCRAFT DATA SHEET (HADS) > NO: HM1 ISSUE: 22 > > This is a data sheet for an XAir (UK), and was put together in 2004. > > There is an interesting table on the bottom of page five. The BMWR100RS > was > fitted with Rotax C gear boxes and a comparison can be made to the Verner > 133M. For the C boxes listed with the 3.0:1 ratio and the Verner all > recommended propeller sizes were 68 inches. But the Rotax gear boxes > could > swing a three blade propeller while only a two blade propeller was > recommend > for the Verner. This indicates the Verner engine gearbox was not designed > to handle high inertia propellers. > > The report last page contains a table that compares X'Air aircraft > performance using the Rotax 582, Jabiru 2.2, Simonini V2, HKS700E, Rotax > 912, and Verner 133M engines. > > This data sheet indicates that all of the above engines can be used safely > on the X'Air. Which engine you select depends on your desire for > performance and the size of your pocket book. Pretty much the same can be > said for Kolb designs. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:25 PM PST US From: "Kirk Smith" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb List Participation --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" < I want to encourage everyone to post to the List about what they are doing and how they are doing it.> I appreciate your contributions to the list John. I doubt anyone has contributed more expertise to the list than you. I'm sitting on my s here but thinking about maybe getting back to work on my Mark 3. It's only been 13 years in the oven now..........snuf Do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:37 PM PST US From: "mike moulai" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: washout/trim --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" Rob, The MkIII wing should be built with no washout. I asked TNK to produce some larger Rear wing attach brackets for the European market which they have done. The reason for this was that if a wing was built with a twist it would not fly wings level, and if flown solo it will also fly with one wing down, the new brackets allow you to alter the angle of attack of each wing seperately, so you can fine tune the aircraft by adding washers in these brackets until the wings stay level. No bungees or trim tabs needed. This works very well. Contact TNK if you like, they will have them in stock. Mike Xtra/Jab 2200 ----- Original Message ----- From: "rlaird" Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:14 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: washout/trim > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "rlaird" > > I just realized that I didn't describe my problem correctly. The MkIII > does "turn left", it banks left. In other words, if I apply right aileron > enough to keep the wings level, then the plane flies fairly straight. So, > it's not rudder correction I need (I think), it's aileron..... I think. > > -------- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Robert Laird > MkIIIc/912ULS > Houston, TX > http://www.Texas-Flyer.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3389#3389 > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:42 PM PST US From: "lucien stavenhagen" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: washout/trim --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" Hey Robert, My FSII has a trim tab on the right aileron, installed according to the plans which show that it's riveted to a pair of the 'ribs' in the aileron (if I'm remembering the attachment correctly here at work). This one is made out of clear lexan, I'll try to get some closeup pics of it next time I'm out at the airport and remember to bring my camera. It also has a rudder trim tab as well, which produces coordinated flight at cruise power (and a moderate slip to the left at idle power), it also is riveted to the rudder as per a description in the plans. So yes you can add them. If your plane is anything like my Firestar, there should be very little roll coupling with the rudder (i.e. not much tendency to roll when yawed), so timming should be fairly straightforward. I.e. trim out the roll with the aileron tab, and trim out yaw at typical cruise power with the rudder trim tab. As far as washout, that refers to a twist in the wing panel such that the outboard part flies at a lower AOA than the inboard (main purpose is to prevent 'tip stalling'). However, according to some Kolb documentation that came with my plane, no washout is used in the Kolb wings (at least there isn't any in mine) and a low-aspect ratio was chosen for stability instead. So, that is probably not something you need or want to try to adjust..... Like I said, I'll try to get some pics of my trim tabs and get them posted ASAP. I need to post pics in general of this plane anyway since it's a cream-puff. The original builder is one of these guys who absolutely details every plane he builds (you should see this Rans he built to replace the Kolb before he sold it to me!) and this thing just looks like a showplane even after almost 500 hours of operation.... Even these trim tabs are like jewelry.... I wish I could brag that I built it, but oh well.... LS N646F >From: "rlaird" >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kolb-List: Re: washout/trim >Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:14:12 -0800 > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "rlaird" > >I just realized that I didn't describe my problem correctly. The MkIII >does "turn left", it banks left. In other words, if I apply right aileron >enough to keep the wings level, then the plane flies fairly straight. So, >it's not rudder correction I need (I think), it's aileron..... I think. > >-------- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Robert Laird >MkIIIc/912ULS >Houston, TX >http://www.Texas-Flyer.com > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3389#3389 > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:02 PM PST US From: "lucien stavenhagen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" Speaking of the Jabiru, I can make at least a 2nd hand report. A local has a 2200 on an older MarkIII. He has about 400 hours on it so far without any problems. It performs surprisingly well with the little direct drive prop, and seems not to overheat on the ground with the pusher configuration (he has the scoops mounted up top). Not sure how that works but it does. The only drawbacks I can see are the fact that its cost is nearly the same as a 912 all said and done, and is restricted a bit in terms of prop size due to the direct drive and 3100 rpm or so max power output speed. But I can't argue with the results he's getting. I"m kind of a Rotax shellback and would get a 912 myself, especially since the costs are similar, but the jab definitely looks like a good reliable motor... LS N646F >Jack/All, >I think thae HADS for the X-Air sums it up. >Remember speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?. >My Xtra with NEW type Jab 2200 cruises at 75kt all day long (approx 84mph I >think it is) more if I open the tap up< considering the price difference to >the 912 I think I can live with the minute speed difference, and feel happy >about the much simpler engine turning much slower than all other >installations and the muck lighter weight than the other 4 strokers. > >Mike >Xtra/New type Jab with big prop >135hrs of purring at no more than 3100 rpm >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jack B. Hart" >To: >Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:18 AM >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" > > > > > Kolbers, > > > > I was curious as to why the Verner seems to have such a bad reputation. >I > > stumbled across the following site: > > > > http://www.bmaa.info/upload/techdocs/20041061154110.Hm01_22.pdf > > > > BRITISH MICROLIGHT AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION > > HOMEBUILT AIRCRAFT DATA SHEET (HADS) > > NO: HM1 ISSUE: 22 > > > > This is a data sheet for an XAir (UK), and was put together in 2004. > > > > There is an interesting table on the bottom of page five. The BMWR100RS > > was > > fitted with Rotax C gear boxes and a comparison can be made to the >Verner > > 133M. For the C boxes listed with the 3.0:1 ratio and the Verner all > > recommended propeller sizes were 68 inches. But the Rotax gear boxes > > could > > swing a three blade propeller while only a two blade propeller was > > recommend > > for the Verner. This indicates the Verner engine gearbox was not >designed > > to handle high inertia propellers. > > > > The report last page contains a table that compares X'Air aircraft > > performance using the Rotax 582, Jabiru 2.2, Simonini V2, HKS700E, Rotax > > 912, and Verner 133M engines. > > > > This data sheet indicates that all of the above engines can be used >safely > > on the X'Air. Which engine you select depends on your desire for > > performance and the size of your pocket book. Pretty much the same can >be > > said for Kolb designs. > > > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > > Winchester, IN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:07 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Attach Spacers?... From: "John Jung" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" Group, I just recently installed nylon spacers on the lower lift struts. I did it because the struts were wearing the paint off on one side. I got the spacers at Lowes for a couple of dollars. They would be a hassle to put on and off if I had to fold the wings, but I don't do that any more. On the top spar pin, I believe the extra space is there because the rear attach point slides in and out on an angle when the wings are rigged. In addition to that, the fuselages change shape slightly when the are welded. A wide gap insures that it will fit. -------- John Jung Firestar II N6163J Surprise, AZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3433#3433 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:51 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: washout/trim --> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:08:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, slyck@frontiernet.net writes: Without messing with the front spar attach parts you can create some offset at the rear attach universal joint. After changind cages on my FS II, I had a right turn that I came close to correcting with John Hauck's bunjii method. Didn't like the looks of it, so ordered the wider rear universal joint from TNK [$75 incl. frt.]. Allows raising or lowering the rear of the wing by about 1/4". Not enough in my case, as I still have a slight turn to R. Think I'll order another one & put it on the other side. Not sure why I had the turn, as the wing incidences, using my Warp Drive protractor, were the same. If your incidence is way off, I bet TNK would be willing to fabricate up a bracket to give 1/2" adjustment up or down. DO NOT ARCHIVE Howard Shackleford FS II SC ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:43 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall From: "Ralph Hoover" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" :( Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in the instruct-ee's seat. And both time, because I have specifically asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish! [Evil or Very Mad] There are no holes anywhere. It has a complete enclosure, with the exception of backside. It has the alerons stits covering (underside) between the alerons and the wing. According to my instructor it flys like a home sick angle. He said that it doesn't have any side to side misallignment and the stick stays streight for streight flight. I have looked under the motor to see if perhaps the motor is raised or lowered from flat. It's not. HELP !!! [Crying or Very sad] [Crying or Very sad] I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I hear the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my instructor weighs in about 190# and I and the previous owner at around 230 #. There is nothing different about the plane from the origional plans that I can find except the longer legs, which would not or should not effect it's flight charistics to any degree. I have not weighed it or checked its balance for location of center of gravity, but again my instructor didn't feel that it was very far off if at all. Somehow I have to gets my hands on three 300# mechanical scales to check this area out. But still where in your humble opinion(s) does the problem lie (or lay)? My last thought might be something regarding adjusting the aleron rods in or out (up or down on the alerons). Could these be the calprets! ( %$ %#$% spell checker)!! :D :D New Kolber with a desire to know (as well as a need). [Idea] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3450#3450 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:20 PM PST US From: Mike Schnabel Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb List Participation --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Schnabel John H, I could not agree with you more! Very well said. As much satisfaction that I get from reading this list, I dismay when I read the derogatory posts, criticizing one another. I guess I am not smart enough to understand the rhyme or reason for the negative words. As a new Kolb owner (long time fan), I have gained a wealth of knowledge from reading this list with all the many years of experience of the members, and for them not to share those experiences would be a shame. Just as it would equally be a shame for any of the less experienced (like me) to be afraid to ask questions out of fear of ridicule. We all were newbies at one time or another, and just as life, so the learning curve goes on and on. Thanks to ALL the members for your contributions, patience, and understanding... Mike S Manchester TN Firestar 2 503 (almost forgot).... do not archive :-) John Hauck wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Everyone: I doubt anyone on this List has been knocked down, drug around, kicked between the legs, slandered, slaughtered the way I have been over the last 8 years I have closely following what my fellow Kolb friends are doing. At times, it is very, very difficult to put up with this kind of crap, but I love my little Kolb airplanes and the people that build and fly them. So I have hung around. Email is a tough communications medium, and folks are going to take the written word differently than some people intend for it to be taken. I know. I do that myself, only to find out later I was wrong. When I am wrong, I usually post a msg to the List admitting it. Back copy msgs about what is going on on the Kolb List, about what is being discussed, does not help the Kolb List. Fear of being right or wrong because of what you would like to post to the List, but for some reason are afraid to post do not help the rest of us understand what is being discussed. I have always felt the Kolb List was one big family. Right or wrong, we are still family. When I post my thoughts and feelings about my experiences or what I prefer, I feel it is my right to be able to do that without being attacked for it. Same as anybody else feels about their posts. If I like the engine I fly with, it is my right to have that preference. If you don't like it, it is also completely alright. Doesn't mean that I am bad mouthing anybody else's stuff. Come on gang, let's be big boys and girls and try to carry on a decent discussion without feeling we are right or wrong, or somebody is going to dump on us because of our feelings and preferences. By chance if they do, hit the delete button and drive on. I am a slow learner................ I am as interested in alternative power for Kolbs as anyone else on the Kolb List. Because I fly with a Kolb powered by a Rotax does not take away from my natural curosity to learn about other means of power. I have recently gotten involved with antique tractors, but I don't fight with folks that drive Dodge or Ford trucks because I drive a Nissan pickup. Nor do I bad mouth my friend that owns a different brand tractor than mine. There is a lot to learn from everyone, the good, the bad, the right and the wrong. I want to encourage everyone to post to the List about what they are doing and how they are doing it. I have been accused of burning up most of the band width on the Kolb List, and maybe I do. Maybe if some more of you all would sit down and do some sharing instead of complaining, we could all benefit by it and I would not be so wordy. :-) Take care my friends, john h hauck's holler, alabama MKIII/912ULS -------- John Hauck MKIII/912ULS hauck's holler, alabama Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3352#3352 --------------------------------- Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:44 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Get a good GPS and go fly some 120 degree triangles in the stillest air you can find, take notes, fly at 45, 55, 65, and see if your airspeed indicator is flawed. Ours was. Also, we tried having the pitot come out above the nose cowling and curve forward, and never got a decent result. It has to either come out the nose or below the nose to work right ( at least that was out experience) Eventually we learned that the pitot has to be in an acceptable place, (and we also have the static air right beside it) and a faulty airspeed indicator will really waste a lot of your time. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) FSII N582EF Ralph Hoover wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" > >:( Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in the instruct-ee's seat. And both time, because I have specifically asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish! > [Evil or Very Mad] >There are no holes anywhere. It has a complete enclosure, with the exception of backside. It has the alerons stits covering (underside) between the alerons and the wing. According to my instructor it flys like a home sick angle. He said that it doesn't have any side to side misallignment and the stick stays streight for streight flight. I have looked under the motor to see if perhaps the motor is raised or lowered from flat. It's not. > >HELP !!! [Crying or Very sad] [Crying or Very sad] > >I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I hear the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my instructor weighs in about 190# and I and the previous owner at around 230 #. There is nothing different about the plane from the origional plans that I can find except the longer legs, which would not or should not effect it's flight charistics to any degree. I have not weighed it or checked its balance for location of center of gravity, but again my instructor didn't feel that it was very far off if at all. Somehow I have to gets my hands on three 300# mechanical scales to check this area out. But still where in your humble opinion(s) does the problem lie (or lay)? My last thought might be something regarding adjusting the aleron rods in or out (up or down on the alerons). Could these be the calprets! ( >%$ >%#$% > spell checker)!! :D :D > >New Kolber with a desire to know (as well as a need). [Idea] > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3450#3450 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:34 PM PST US From: "Ralph" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" Ralph, I think your ASI is not reading right. Ralph B. Original Firestar 19 years flying it (stalls at 25mph, ASI reads 20 due to AOA) -- "Ralph Hoover" wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" :( Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in the instruct-ee's seat. And both time, because I have specifically asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish! [Evil or Very Mad] There are no holes anywhere. It has a complete enclosure, with the exception of backside. It has the alerons stits covering (underside) between the alerons and the wing. According to my instructor it flys like a home sick angle. He said that it doesn't have any side to side misallignment and the stick stays streight for streight flight. I have looked under the motor to see if perhaps the motor is raised or lowered from flat. It's not. HELP !!! [Crying or Very sad] [Crying or Very sad] I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I hear the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my instructor weighs in about 190# and I and the previous owner at around 230 #. There is nothing different about the plane from the origional plans that I can find except the longer legs, which would not or should not effect it's flight charistics to any degree. I have not weighed it or checked its balance for location of center of gravity, but again my instructor didn't feel that it was very far off if at all. Somehow I have to gets my hands on three 300# mechanical scales to check this area out. But still where in your humble opinion(s) does the problem lie (or lay)? My last thought might be something regarding adjusting the aleron rods in or out (up or down on the alerons). Could these be the calprets! ( %$ %#$% spell checker)!! :D :D New Kolber with a desire to know (as well as a need). [Idea] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3450#3450 Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:30 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 07:36 PM 1/12/2006, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" > >:( Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, >with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm >air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in >the instruct-ee's seat. And both time, because I have specifically >asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish! > [Evil or Very Mad] > >I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I >hear the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis >as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my >instructor weighs in about 190# and I and the previous owner at >around 230 #. There is nothing different about the plane from the >origional plans that I can find except the longer legs, which would >not or should not effect it's flight charistics to any degree. -------------------------------------- I'll bet either he hasn't really stalled it or your air speed indicator is wrong. Mine is heavier than yours could possible be and I've got the stall or "mush" down to about 28 mph. BTW : I would always land a little fast if I were you, we don't get no extra points for three point landings here. There are very few things that you can do to your plane that does anything at all for the performance - after spending lots of time and money it sometimes actually degrades the performance of what you were trying to do anyway. I've spent lots of $ for nothing several times. I've got over 670 hours on this one I was just surprised at what these little things would actually do for the amount of time and money invested. I fly my plane slow - a lot. I fly my plane at stall speed at lot. http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/ http://www.landshorter.com/index.html A lot more control a just above stall. I used the little lexan "Landshorter" ones - about 42 + per wing, used the pattern they sent for the layout. They're even hard to see unless you look close. It takes two of these to make one of the homemade ones some of the guys use. URL: http://sos.photosite.com/Album1/ ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:07 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines From: "John Williamson" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" Rick and All, When I say "BAD," that means that I wouldn't want to be flying in the same vicinity of an aircraft with the Verner 133. I said it had a terrible vibration. It was 78 hp verse 80 hp on the Jabiru it was going to replace. I could mount a 3 blade Warp Drive prop instead of the 2 blade Warp Drive prop on the Jabiru. With the gearbox on the Verner 133, it had more torque than the Jabiru with the direct drive. I only flew it long enough to know that I did not want to fly it any more and put the Jabiru back on the Kolbra. Sometimes you just "Know" that something isn't right. You can't compare the performance of the Verner 133 to the Jabiru or the Rotax 912 ULS because the engines are so different in performance capabilities and their intented applications. As for engine support: Rotax is supported by a long list of retailers. The Verner has three reps that I know of and the one I bought mine from was worthless. The Jabiru has three dealers here in the USA that I know of. I bought mine from Pete, who is now in TN, and supported me every time I called him. The maintenance schedule on the Jabiru was one of my big deciding factors to look for something else. The tappet check and headbolt retorque every 25 hours gets old real quick when you fly 50 hours on a two week trip and have to do them in the middle of no-where. -------- John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolbra, 912ULS http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3469#3469 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 40 MPH Stall From: "James Tripp" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "James Tripp" Ralph, My FSII also stalls right at 40MPH IAS. I'm 200 lbs and the empty weight of my FS is 445 lbs. I'm almost certain my ASI reads at least 5 MPH high and probably does so because I don't have a static port. I haven't bother to fix it because it just doesn't matter. I just need to know what the stall speed is with the indicator I have. -------- James Tripp FSII Millbrook AL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3470#3470 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:19 PM PST US From: "flht99reh" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" Ralph B. I wish you were right. However, according to my instructor who has been flying for years and knows appearances of air speed, he says NO WAY! I would know if it were that far off. A few MPH perhaps but not that much. He typically lands his trainer a (yuk) Challenger at his filed at around 50 with the two of us in it. But just to eliminate that as a problem, once reassembled, I have both a new Winter ASI and the MGL avionic Flight-2 glass gauge to tell me. And if they both lie or dispute, then it's the gumball machine on the outside of the side windscreen. I wish you were correct. I even have added since the second (last flight) a static line to the outside of the cockpit, per TNK advise. This may have been part of the culprit. We shall see. Thank you for your help. A Are we to continue to use the words do not archive in this new BBS? Ralph "the other Ralph" Hoover -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:18 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" Ralph, I think your ASI is not reading right. Ralph B. Original Firestar 19 years flying it (stalls at 25mph, ASI reads 20 due to AOA) -- "Ralph Hoover" wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" :( Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in the instruct-ee's seat. And both time, because I have specifically asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish! [Evil or Very Mad] There are no holes anywhere. It has a complete enclosure, with the exception of backside. It has the alerons stits covering (underside) between the alerons and the wing. According to my instructor it flys like a home sick angle. He said that it doesn't have any side to side misallignment and the stick stays streight for streight flight. I have looked under the motor to see if perhaps the motor is raised or lowered from flat. It's not. HELP !!! [Crying or Very sad] [Crying or Very sad] I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I hear the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my instructor weighs in about 190# and I and the previous owner at around 230 #. There is nothing different about the plane from the origional plans that I can find except the longer legs, which would not or should not effect it's flight charistics to any degree. I have not weighed it or checked its balance for location of center of gravity, but again my instructor didn't feel that it was very far off if at all. Somehow I have to gets my hands on three 300# mechanical scales to check this area out. But still where in your humble opinion(s) does the problem lie (or lay)? My last thought might be something regarding adjusting the aleron rods in or out (up or down on the alerons). Could these be the calprets! ( %$ %#$% spell checker)!! :D :D New Kolber with a desire to know (as well as a need). [Idea] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3450#3450 Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: washout/trim From: "JetPilot" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.c wrote: > The original builder is one of these guys who absolutely details > every plane he builds and this thing just looks like a showplane even > after almost 500 hours of operation.... > Even these trim tabs are like jewelry.... > > > LS > N646F > > Now you gotta post the pictures [Mr. Green] I want to see this plane. I also would like to see the trim tabs as I am working on a trim tab system of my own and want to see what everyone else has done. -------- NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3478#3478 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:24 PM PST US From: "flht99reh" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" Thanks Richard. I replied to the "Good" Ralph on this site and added a few comments of which included static line (as full cockpit exists on this plane), and changing ASI's to a new Winter. So are you to say that now, you are stalling at 25 range? That sure would make my heart rate a tad milder. By the way, my predecessor in ownership did install the Pitot tube in the center of the bull's eye on the nose cone and it is approximately one foot long. I'll add that I have not yet changed the fuel tank to anything different than the factory 5 gallon, should weight dispersement be anything to concern myself about. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:16 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Get a good GPS and go fly some 120 degree triangles in the stillest air you can find, take notes, fly at 45, 55, 65, and see if your airspeed indicator is flawed. Ours was. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:54 PM PST US From: "flht99reh" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" Possum, ya make my eyes water! Your web site and that jacket is way too much. As far as the Vortex goodies, I have read a lot about them on this site. I may add them at a latter date along with some other goodies. However, that still doesn't explain why the high stall rate. I appreciate your input and will keep a copy of your answer. Thanks -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of possums Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 07:36 PM 1/12/2006, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" > >:( Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, >with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm >air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in >the instruct-ee's seat. And both time, because I have specifically >asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish! > [Evil or Very Mad] > >I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:26 PM PST US From: "lucien stavenhagen" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" >Ralph, >My FSII also stalls right at 40MPH IAS. I'm 200 lbs and the empty weight of >my FS is 445 lbs. I'm almost certain my ASI reads at least 5 MPH high and >probably does so because I don't have a static port. I haven't bother to >fix it because it just doesn't matter. I just need to know what the stall >speed is with the indicator I have. > Mine also stalls around 40 as well, actually about 42 or 43 IAS with full gas. Mine is 440lbs empty weight and I'm about 185lbs. So doesn't sound to me like there's a problem. We got 140 sq feet of wing area on the FSII after all, so even heavy-ish planes like mine have plenty of lift for good climb rates and slow landings. Remember also that in the flare your stall speed will be even lower due to ground effect, so you should still be able to touch down quite a bit slower than 40mph. LS N646F >-------- >James Tripp >FSII >Millbrook AL > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3470#3470 > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:59 PM PST US From: "flht99reh" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" James, you know when someone tells you something and it doesn't make any sense and then someone else tells you the same thing in a different way, a light comes on. Well the light came on. The problem still exists but now I see where someone said "just need to know what the stall speed is with the indicator I have." And now I understand. It could read eighty and still be twenty-five (of courses that would mean that I would typically fly at around 115 when cruising). HA, HA! Thanks. I would rather fix it rather than continue with it in that way. I think! Thanks for you advise. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Tripp Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:35 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: "James Tripp" Ralph, My FSII also stalls right at 40MPH IAS. I'm 200 lbs and the empty weight of my FS is 445 lbs. I'm almost certain my ASI reads at least 5 MPH high and probably does so because I don't have a static port. I haven't bother to fix it because it just doesn't matter. I just need to know what the stall speed is with the indicator I have. -------- James Tripp FSII Millbrook AL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3470#3470 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:06 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines From: "JetPilot" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net wrote: > > > Also some of the comments I'm seeing on the list aren't very constructive. I still haven't heard any evaluation on a Verner engine (statistics or facts not just hear say) (May be John W but he never flew it) and we are getting comments such as ... > > Remember Verner has > made at least two different engines and maybe the newer engines are better. > Most of us can read about others experiences and make a really good, educated judgement about an engine. If you need an "evaluation" with "statistics" to figure things out, well there will be a LOT of things in life you dont figure out... Most of us can, but there are always those few that cannot look at the obvious and see it. "Maybe the newer engines are better" You are more than welcome to be the test case on that one. I would never buy from a manufacturer that has a horrible record just on the hopes that " Maybe the newer engines are better". Again, you miss the obvious... "The engine matches the airplane" The Rotax 912 seems to match everything, Kolbs, Diamond, Kitfox, Air Force Predator, Trikes, the list is endless. In the end, the Rotax 912S is just a great engine that will work no matter what you put it on. Inferrior engines will only work on a very small range of applications. Again, the quality and design of the engine determines how many applications it will work on, and the Rotax 912 wins hands down. In the end, its just a question if you want to spend the money or not. Not everyone can afford the 912, I have been there, and I totally respect that... But as poor as I was before, I never forgot what was the superior engine and what I would one day buy. Michael A. Bigelow -------- NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3491#3491 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:05 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Hoover" Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall > :( Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, with > 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus.> I won't mind landing at 45-50 > in calm air if I have too. But when I hear the average from the Kolb site > and from THNK Company and Travis as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think > I have a problem. Ralph, I purchased my Firestar in 1997. It weighed 278 lbs. I weighed 230, It stalled at 46 MPH. I did a few changes that involved more weight (360) and the stall went up a bit but not more than 2 MPH. Then I installed VG's to each full rib and the stall dropped to 36 MPH. This last year I put them on the false ribs as well and the stall dropped to 26 MPH. I believe that Possums bought his from Landshorter.com, and paid about $100.00. I made mine from plans developed by Howard Shackleford. I have some made from alum, and some made from lexan. I believe that I like those the best. I do believe that it will cost you about 2 mph on your cruise, but that is a choice that I am happy to live with. I know how you feel about the stall speed since that was one of the factors that decided me on a Kolb, since most of the places that I would be landing would be other than on a runway. I too wondered why mine stalled so fast. So I believe that the speed you are experiencing is a bit more realistic. Larry, Oregon ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:09 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 40 MPH Stall From: "Mike Pierzina" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike Pierzina" Hi, You wrote to me after my first flight in my Kolb.... Like I had told you when you were wondering about my stall speed... Like I said to you then.... When you go up , Your first flight should be a short one.....get up to 3000 ft and "APPROACH" a stall ......NOT A FULL STALL...... then you'll have the info you need to be safe.... And it does sound like a "STATIC" problem that your having... Got a digital camera ??? lets see PICTURES , CLOSE UPS..... Gotta Fly... Mike in MN FSII / N381PM I bought one of those "Hall" mechanical wind guages as a "Check" because I couldn't believe how SLOW I was flying before stall... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3496#3496 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/elt_002_852.jpg ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:54 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: glider wings on UltraStar? From: "JetPilot" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" There would be a LOT of drag issues. Its not just the wings, you need a new fuse also... In the end, you are better off just building a glider from the ground up if that is what you want. If you try to make a powered ultralight into a glider, you will end up putting a huge amount of work into it and still have a dog that will not glide well. That is a really bad idea... -------- NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3497#3497 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:05 PM PST US From: possums Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 09:06 PM 1/12/2006, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" > > >Possum, ya make my eyes water! Your web site and that jacket is way too >much. As far as the Vortex goodies, I have read a lot about them on this >site. I may add them at a latter date along with some other goodies. >However, that still doesn't explain why the high stall rate. I appreciate >your input and will keep a copy of your answer. Thanks How many "Ralphs" we got?? Anyway, my wings are 9 inches shorter than my old 1989 KXP. The ribs are the same as yours. the wing tips are different - so the lift should be about the same. I'm sure my plane weighs in just under 400 LBS -- Oooch. I hate to admit that - it's like asking some little thing if's she's pregnant (she'd better be). Or how old are you honey? ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:43 PM PST US From: possums Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 08:49 PM 1/12/2006, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" > >Ralph B. I wish you were right. However, according to my instructor who has >been flying for years and knows appearances of air speed, he says NO WAY! I >would know if it were that far off. Oh -- BTW I've got a $35 "Hall ASI" on my nose cone, Air Speed Indicator in the Instrument panel and Garmon GPS 295 inside. So I'm pretty sure my airspeed is right, but the Hall is the most accurate. Before the VG's my stall speed was only around 36 mph - so don't expect miracles. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:54 PM PST US From: "Richard Swiderski" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: glider wings on UltraStar? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" Hey Rich, I often thought about doing what you are thinking with my old US. I could catch thermals with engine off here in FL & get 100-150 fpm lift sometimes, but usually it wasn't enough to get too far. I came close to adding 3ft wing extensions using a piano hinge connection, but ended up selling it, (I still wake up crying about that.) I was raised in Mosinee, just north of you & still have family up there. -Richard Swiderski -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Masqqqqqqq@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: Kolb-List: glider wings on UltraStar? --> Kolb-List message posted by: Masqqqqqqq@aol.com I hope this doesn't sound too outlandish.......but...... I have 1984 Kolb UltraStar which I purchased used in 1994. I've flown it often, and love it. It's powered by a 447 Rotax. Lately, I find myself interested in unpowered gliders. Here's the question: Has anyone ever replaced the wings on an UltraStar with the larger glider style wings, removed or downsized the engine, and had a glider? I suspect there would be some balance issues to address, but I'm wondering if it's been done. Rich Iverson Stevens Point, WI do not archive ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:43 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 40 MPH Stall From: "Possum" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Possum" Just a test.... Oh -- BTW I've got a $35 "Hall ASI" on my nose cone, Air Speed Indicator in the Instrument panel and Garmon GPS 295 inside. So I'm pretty sure my airspeed is right, but the Hall is the most accurate. Before the VG's my stall speed was only around 36 mph - so don't expect miracles. Actually got a glass panel - but still have my "Hall" as a back up. Ha Ha Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3535#3535 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_005_183.jpg ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:08 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb List Participation From: "Don G" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don G" YEssiree..ditto here men...John H says it pretty well I think..and I appreciate his experience an awful lot. ANd your way of speaking JOhn..or typeing, does not bother me abit. As for me...I dont care if anyone thinks I might be wrong whenever I expand on a subject, and I sure dont mind anyone to say so. Heck, how boreing would it be if we all had the same take on everything...besides the fact I could be mistaken and might not have thought it all out without someone jarring me into a brain exercize!.. "If we all stood in a circle around the pond, one thing is for sure, we all would see the same water from a different angle!" Don G -------- Don G FireFly#098 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3539#3539 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:51 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Kolb-List: test --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" Does the messages show up on the BB when sent to the regular list? I thought they did, but I am not sure. Larry, Oregon ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:42 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: test --> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle At 09:32 PM 1/12/2006 Thursday, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" > >Does the messages show up on the BB when sent to the regular list? I thought >they did, but I am not sure. >Larry, >Oregon > Yup! Cross posting works in BOTH directions. Matt Dralle List Admin Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: [ Dave Pelletier ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Kolb-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Dave Pelletier Lists: Kolb-List,Ultralight-List Subject: Tie Down Lock - Control Stick http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/pelletier@cableone.net.01.12.2006/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com