Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:49 AM - new format (pat ladd)
2. 04:59 AM - 40 mph stall (Chris Mallory)
3. 05:31 AM - Verner engines (Edward Steuber)
4. 05:47 AM - Re: Kolb List Participation (John Jung)
5. 06:39 AM - Re: Kolb List Participation (John Jung)
6. 06:40 AM - nuts n bolts (Paul Petty)
7. 06:51 AM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Richard Pike)
8. 06:54 AM - Re: Verner engines (ray anderson)
9. 07:15 AM - Re: nuts n bolts (Richard Pike)
10. 07:27 AM - Re: Verner engines (snuffy@usol.com)
11. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: 40 MPH Stall (Richard Pike)
12. 07:34 AM - Re: nuts n bolts (Charlie England)
13. 07:35 AM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Charlie England)
14. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: Kolb List Participation (lucien stavenhagen)
15. 07:37 AM - Re: nuts n bolts (WillUribe@aol.com)
16. 07:37 AM - Re: nuts n bolts (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
17. 08:21 AM - Re: nuts n bolts (Paul Petty)
18. 08:39 AM - Re: nuts n bolts (N27SB@aol.com)
19. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: John W's SP Article (N27SB@aol.com)
20. 09:24 AM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (J carter)
21. 09:26 AM - q (russ kinne)
22. 10:00 AM - Re: new format (Matt Dralle)
23. 10:24 AM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Possum)
24. 10:57 AM - Stall speed / GPS (Ralph Hoover)
25. 12:20 PM - Re: Stall speed / GPS (John Jung)
26. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Verner Engines (mike moulai)
27. 01:17 PM - Re: q (pat ladd)
28. 01:18 PM - Re: new format (pat ladd)
29. 01:25 PM - Re: washout/trim (John Jung)
30. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: 40 MPH Stall (Charlie England)
31. 03:07 PM - 40 mph stall (Lloyd McFarlane)
32. 03:22 PM - Re: Wing Attach Spacers (David Paule)
33. 03:34 PM - Fw: 40 MPH Stall (Larry Cottrell)
34. 03:46 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Larry Cottrell)
35. 04:37 PM - Re: nuts n bolts (bryan green)
36. 05:43 PM - Re: q (JetPilot)
37. 05:58 PM - Re: nuts n bolts (JetPilot)
38. 06:20 PM - Re: Re: nuts n bolts (ray anderson)
39. 06:37 PM - Re: Kolb List Participation (Kirk Smith)
40. 06:39 PM - Re: Re: nuts n bolts aka rolled thrds (Robert Noyer)
41. 06:55 PM - Re: q (Ed Chmielewski)
42. 07:35 PM - VORTEX GENERATORS (owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com)
43. 07:46 PM - Re: q (JetPilot)
44. 07:47 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (flht99reh)
45. 08:02 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (flht99reh)
46. 09:34 PM - Re: 40 MPH Stall (Larry Cottrell)
47. 09:48 PM - Re: VORTEX GENERATORS (owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com)
48. 10:23 PM - Re: VORTEX GENERATORS (Richard Pike)
49. 11:37 PM - Re: Re: q (Ed Chmielewski)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Hi Matte,
my comp has been out for a few days.
Whats all this stuff about a new format? I seem to have missed out somewhere.
If it entails scrolling back and forth to read an email as one lister suggested
that is a definite disadvantage. There have to be benefits somewhere or you
would not have changed things.
Can I have a reprise please.
Cheers
Pat
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
My problem was just the opposite, when I first got my FS II, I could fly all
day long at 30 mph IAS with absolutely no tendency to stall. After I bought
a new ASI the plane stalls at a true 30 mph.
If your installation of a static line doesn't change your reading, try a new
instrument.
Mallory
Do not archive
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber" <esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
Ha ! Who needs a Verner when there are plenty of Cuyuna's still flying...
sissy boys....
Ed in Western NY
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb List Participation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
John H and Group,
Are you referring to messages that are sent off-list? If not, I don't know why
you feel this way. Maybe I have missed something, but as a list member for almost
10 years, I would like to add some perspective:
Without a doubt, you contribute more value to this list than any other member.
You not only have the most experience, but it very generous of you to spend so
much time sharing with the list.
This is the time of year (winter) that we tend to be more easily irritated.
You post the most, so if someone is going to get irritated by the list, you are
more likely the source.
You tend to defend your ideas so strongly that others can feel like they are being
told that they are wrong. By "strongly", I mean repeating yourself, especially
repeating how many Kolb hours you have.
Recently, it appeared that a newer member replyed to the list, quoting something
that was said about you off-list. If this is what happened, you have a right
to be upset. But it did not lower my opinion of you. It did kill my opinion of
the newer list member.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3594#3594
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb List Participation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
Group,
This list is like family to me, too, and I just want us all to get along.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3620#3620
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
Fellow Kolbers,
I am installing the AN hardware in Ms. Dixie for pre final assembly to make sure
everything fits and works before taking apart for final paint and covering.
Here is my question.. Drilled AN bolts vs non drilled AN bolts and nylon lock
nuts... My plans call for drilled AN bolts in some areas and non drilled with
nylon nuts in others [Question] Personaly I like the nylon lock nuts vs the drilled
with cotter pins. One reason is climbing in and out of the airplane the
cotter pins will get caught on clothing and human flesh [Shocked] . Problem...
One area I want to use a non drilled AN bolt with a nylon nut is the control
stick bolt. AN-4-7 (I think) is to short to get the required 3 threads extruding
and the next 2 sizes will bottom out before snugging up the connection. Can
any of the experts see a problem with adding a few more threads (via die set)
to the AN 4 bolt? In addition, why would an aircraft designer choose one type
fastener over the other?
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3621#3621
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 40 MPH Stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Around 25 would be pretty awesome, but no, it stalls at 32 power on, 35
power off.
It is heavy at 488, (lights, transponder, mode C, bulletproof Lexan
floorboards, etc.)
(not how I would have done it, but it's not my airplane, so...)
which is why it doesn't stall slower, however it handles great,
and a 35 mph power off stall is very easy to live with.
Here is the airplane and the mods we made to it -
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
flht99reh wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
>
>Thanks Richard. I replied to the "Good" Ralph on this site and added a few
>comments of which included static line (as full cockpit exists on this
>plane), and changing ASI's to a new Winter. So are you to say that now, you
>are stalling at 25 range? That sure would make my heart rate a tad milder.
>By the way, my predecessor in ownership did install the Pitot tube in the
>center of the bull's eye on the nose cone and it is approximately one foot
>long. I'll add that I have not yet changed the fuel tank to anything
>different than the factory 5 gallon, should weight dispersement be anything
>to concern myself about.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:16 PM
>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
>Get a good GPS and go fly some 120 degree triangles in the stillest air
>you can find, take notes, fly at 45, 55, 65, and see if your airspeed
>indicator is flawed. Ours was.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Verner engines |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Right on Edward !!!!
Just had a thought. Back a few years, when Cuyuna's were the engine for snowmobiles,
how many snowmobilers were stranded and died because their trusty Cuyunas
let them down? Never heard of one.
Ray .... TN
UltraStar (CUYUNA)
Do not archive
Edward Steuber <esteuber@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber"
Ha ! Who needs a Verner when there are plenty of Cuyuna's still flying...
sissy boys....
Ed in Western NY
---------------------------------
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: nuts n bolts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Rather than try and cut threads into the bolt, use a thinner AN nut.
And if necessary, thin washers to shim everything perfect.
Check out the AN-364 on this page:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/an363.php
Keeping several extra AN-364 nuts available in AN-3 and AN-4
sizes is handy for situations such as you describe.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Paul Petty wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
>
>Fellow Kolbers,
><snip> Problem... One area I want to use a non drilled AN bolt with a nylon nut
is the control stick bolt. AN-4-7 (I think) is to short to get the required
3 threads extruding and the next 2 sizes will bottom out before snugging up the
connection. Can any of the experts see a problem with adding a few more threads
(via die set) to the AN 4 bolt? In addition, why would an aircraft designer
choose one type fastener over the other?
>
>--------
>Paul Petty
>Kolbra #12
>Ms Dixie
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3621#3621
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Verner engines |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: snuffy@usol.com
Just had a thought. Back a few years, when Cuyuna's were the
engine for snowmobiles,
how many snowmobilers were stranded and died because their trusty
Cuyunas let them down?
Never heard of one.
> Ray .... TN
That's only cuz there was an Artic cat there to tow em home.....:>)
Do not
archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 40 MPH Stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Our original flawed airspeed indicator read ok at 50, but false at high
and low airspeeds, so when you got up to an indicated 75, you were
actually going 90. Stuff like that will get a man killed...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
flht99reh wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
>
>James, you know when someone tells you something and it doesn't make any
>sense and then someone else tells you the same thing in a different way, a
>light comes on. Well the light came on. The problem still exists but now I
>see where someone said "just need to know what the stall speed is with the
>indicator I have." And now I understand. It could read eighty and still be
>twenty-five (of courses that would mean that I would typically fly at around
>115 when cruising). HA, HA!
>
>Thanks. I would rather fix it rather than continue with it in that way. I
>think! Thanks for you advise.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Tripp
>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:35 PM
>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 40 MPH Stall
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "James Tripp" <jtripp@elmore.rr.com>
>
>Ralph,
>My FSII also stalls right at 40MPH IAS. I'm 200 lbs and the empty weight of
>my FS is 445 lbs. I'm almost certain my ASI reads at least 5 MPH high and
>probably does so because I don't have a static port. I haven't bother to fix
>it because it just doesn't matter. I just need to know what the stall speed
>is with the indicator I have.
>
>--------
>James Tripp
>FSII
>Millbrook AL
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3470#3470
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: nuts n bolts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Paul Petty wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
>
>Fellow Kolbers,
>
>I am installing the AN hardware in Ms. Dixie for pre final assembly to make sure
everything fits and works before taking apart for final paint and covering.
Here is my question.. Drilled AN bolts vs non drilled AN bolts and nylon lock
nuts... My plans call for drilled AN bolts in some areas and non drilled with
nylon nuts in others [Question] Personaly I like the nylon lock nuts vs the
drilled with cotter pins. One reason is climbing in and out of the airplane the
cotter pins will get caught on clothing and human flesh [Shocked] . Problem...
One area I want to use a non drilled AN bolt with a nylon nut is the control
stick bolt. AN-4-7 (I think) is to short to get the required 3 threads extruding
and the next 2 sizes will bottom out before snugging up the connection. Can
any of the experts see a problem with adding a few more threads (via die set)
to the AN 4 bolt? In addition, why would an aircraft designer choose one type
fastener over the other?
>
>--------
>Paul Petty
>Kolbra #12
>Ms Dixie
>
In the certified world, the selection process goes something like:
Nyloc is ok unless the joint itself is designed to rotate; then you need
cotter keys. The exception to nylocs is in extreme temperature
environments, like things attached to an engine where the heat would
weaken the nylon. There are all-metal friction locking nuts for that
application.
Take a look at your inlaw's RV-8. Even the aileron bellcranks use
nylocs, because there's a brass bushing that the rod end moves on & the
bushing is locked down by the bolt/nut in the weldment. However, the
rudder pedals probably pivot on the bolts themselves (if they are built
like my RV-4) & a cotter key is required. Logic is that a rotating bolt
might overcome the locking force of the nyloc & unscrew the bolt.
Cutting threads will weaken the bolt (original threads are 'rolled', not
cut), but the clamping force required for a control stick isn't likely
to stress the bolt at all. The much simpler solution, if you have room,
is to just add a couple of flat washers under the nut. AN specs allow up
to (I think) 3 or 4 washers under the nut, & you can add a couple under
the head, also. The logic is to allow for just the problem you are
encountering, without having to recut threads.
Charlie
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 40 MPH Stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
possums wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
>
>At 08:49 PM 1/12/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
>>
>>Ralph B. I wish you were right. However, according to my instructor who has
>>been flying for years and knows appearances of air speed, he says NO WAY! I
>>would know if it were that far off.
>>
>>
>
>
>Oh -- BTW I've got a $35 "Hall ASI" on my nose cone, Air Speed Indicator
>in the Instrument panel and Garmon GPS 295 inside.
>So I'm pretty sure my airspeed is right, but the Hall is the most accurate.
>Before the VG's my stall speed was only around 36 mph - so don't
>expect miracles.
>
Can you provide a link to the $35 hall asi product?
Thanks,
Charlie
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb List Participation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien stavenhagen" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>Recently, it appeared that a newer member replyed to the list, quoting
>something that was said about you off-list. If this is what happened, you
>have a right to be upset. But it did not lower my opinion of you. It did
>kill my opinion of the newer list member.
You're probably referring to a PM that I recieved and accidentally ended up
sending to the list.
I of course apologized to the original sender and did what I could to debug
how that happened.
Unfortunately, his subsequent reply appeared to gloss over the apology and
accuse me of doing it deliberately, tempting me to withdraw my apology to
him (though I won't do so at this time since I may be inferring something
that wasn't actually there).
Apart from that, I do apologize to John and the list for that unfortunate
accident and I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.
LS
N646F
Message 15
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
Hi Paul,
My A&P friend made me change the nylon lock nuts on the control stick to
castellated nuts with drilled bolts before the DAR inspected my FireStar because
they were moving joints and the nylon lock nuts may work themselves out. He
said the DAR would not pass it using the nylon lock nuts because it is
common practice to use castellated nuts on moving joints.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX
FireStar II N4GU
C-172 N2506U
Restoring a PA-22-108 N4551Z
http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane
Do Not Archive
P.S. See you in March
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Petty
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:40 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: nuts n bolts
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" _lynnp@g-gate.net_
(mailto:lynnp@g-gate.net)
<SNIP>
Drilled AN bolts vs non drilled AN bolts and nylon lock nuts... My plans
call for drilled AN bolts in some areas and non drilled with nylon nuts in
others [Question] Personaly I like the nylon lock nuts vs the drilled with
cotter pins.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: nuts n bolts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <neilsenrmf@comcast.net>
Paul
When I had my plane inspected by the local EAA inspector he stated that
nylock nuts were not to be used on any attachment that rotates. Dennis
Souder's comments were people some times forget to install the cotter pins
so he liked nylock. The FAA's inspector said he didn't care (he was a jerk
that only cared that the paper work was ok). As for cutting additional
threads, I did this a few times but is it OK?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: nuts n bolts
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
>
> Fellow Kolbers,
>
> I am installing the AN hardware in Ms. Dixie for pre final assembly to
> make sure everything fits and works before taking apart for final paint
> and covering. Here is my question.. Drilled AN bolts vs non drilled AN
> bolts and nylon lock nuts... My plans call for drilled AN bolts in some
> areas and non drilled with nylon nuts in others [Question] Personaly I
> like the nylon lock nuts vs the drilled with cotter pins. One reason is
> climbing in and out of the airplane the cotter pins will get caught on
> clothing and human flesh [Shocked] . Problem... One area I want to use a
> non drilled AN bolt with a nylon nut is the control stick bolt. AN-4-7 (I
> think) is to short to get the required 3 threads extruding and the next 2
> sizes will bottom out before snugging up the connection. Can any of the
> experts see a problem with adding a few more threads (via die set) to the
> AN 4 bolt? In addition, why would an aircraft designer choose one type
> fastener over the other?
>
> --------
> Paul Petty
> Kolbra #12
> Ms Dixie
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: nuts n bolts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
Thanks guys,
So if it moves, cotter pin it. If it dont Nyloc it. cool! [Wink]
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3661#3661
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: nuts n bolts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
In a message dated 1/13/06 9:04:12 AM Central Standard Time, lynnp@g-gate.net
writes:
> Drilled AN bolts vs non drilled AN bolts and nylon lock nuts... My plans
> call for drilled AN bolts in some areas and non drilled with nylon nuts in
> others [Question] Personaly I like the nylon lock nuts vs the drilled with
> cotter pins.
Hi Paul,
Boy are you going to get action out of this one. I was trained by an old
Airforce Col.
If it has a part that moves or rotates on the bolt, use a castle nut and
cotter key. If it snugs down and holds compression, use a nyloc. If it gets hot,
use a metal lock.
BTW, Although pricey, there is a nyloc castle nut available. I like them for
the control stick position because if your cotter key goes you still have a
nyloc. My feeling is that if it gets loose it will take a while to back off.
Steve B
FF #007
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: John W's SP Article |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com
John,
Great Job, I enjoyed reading your article.
Steve B
FF #007
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 40 MPH Stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "J carter" <cartejy@mtn-state.com>
Ralph, where are you located in Ohio, I am at East Liverpool,I own a 91 KXP
and it lands slower than you mention.I would not get to excited about it,may
be no problem..or may be air speed indicator ,you will have lots of fun with
the KXP and they fly great. Jay Carter KXP /503. do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Hoover" <flht99reh@netzero.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" <flht99reh@netzero.com>
>
> :( Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, with
503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm air in late
fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in the instruct-ee's
seat. And both time, because I have specifically asked "what speed does it
stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish!
> [Evil or Very Mad]
> There are no holes anywhere. It has a complete enclosure, with the
exception of backside. It has the alerons stits covering (underside) between
the alerons and the wing. According to my instructor it flys like a home
sick angle. He said that it doesn't have any side to side misallignment and
the stick stays streight for streight flight. I have looked under the motor
to see if perhaps the motor is raised or lowered from flat. It's not.
>
> HELP !!! [Crying or Very sad] [Crying or Very sad]
>
> I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I hear
the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis as being
closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my instructor weighs
in about 190# and I and the previous owner at around 230 #. There is nothing
different about the plane from the origional plans that I can find except
the longer legs, which would not or should not effect it's flight charistics
to any degree. I have not weighed it or checked its balance for location of
center of gravity, but again my instructor didn't feel that it was very far
off if at all. Somehow I have to gets my hands on three 300# mechanical
scales to check this area out. But still where in your humble opinion(s)
does the problem lie (or lay)? My last thought might be something regarding
adjusting the aleron rods in or out (up or down on the alerons). Could these
be the calprets! (
> %$
> %#$%
> spell checker)!! :D :D
>
> New Kolber with a desire to know (as well as a need). [Idea]
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3450#3450
>
>
Message 21
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne <kinnepix@earthlink.net>
John H gave us this good (as usual) advice --
> One of my pretakeoff checks is to wipe out the cockpit with the stick,
> lower and raise the flaps, and insure the rudder pedals are clear.
> Takes a lot out of the chance out of leaving a control locked prior to
> takeoff.
> "All controls free and clear."
> john h
also a good idea to run the controls to the stops just before pushing
throttle forward for takeoff. Years ago at LGA a DC-9 (?) crashed
because a rock had blown into the elevator-hinge when the pilot ran
up his engines; locked the elevators & killed 61 (?) people --
Message 22
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
At 02:43 AM 1/13/2006 Friday, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> Hi Matte,
>
>my comp has been out for a few days.
>Whats all this stuff about a new format? I seem to have missed out somewhere.
>If it entails scrolling back and forth to read an email as one lister suggested
that is a definite disadvantage. There have to be benefits somewhere or you
would not have changed things.
>Can I have a reprise please.
>
>Cheers
>
>Pat
Pat et al,
Monday I added an additional method for viewing and responding to List content.
Commonly referred to as Bulletin Board System or BBS, it allows Listers to use
a web browser to interact with the Lists rather than (or in addition to) the
traditional Email methods. The email interface will not be going away or changing;
the new BBS is simply another method to access List Content. Something
for everyone! There is full cross posting between the BBS and the Email Lists
so no matter which one you check, you'll find the same content. Below is my
original post regarding the new BBS.
The URL for the BBS is:
http://forums.matronics.com
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
List Admin
>Dear Listers,
>
>
>I'm very proud to announce a completely new BBS interface is now available for
>
>all of the Email Lists at Matronics! This is a full-featured system that allows
>
>for viewing, posting, attachments, polls - the works.
>
>
>But the best part is that it is *completely* integrated with all of the existing
>
>email tools currently available at Matronics! What this means at the most basic
>
>level is that, if you post a message to List from Email in the traditional
>
>way, it will show up on the BBS system *and* get distributed to everyone currently
>
>subscribed to the Email List. By the same token, if you are on the BBS
>
>and post a message to a given List-Forum, the message will not only show up on
>
>the BBS, but also be distributed to everyone on the Email List!!
>
>
>It is really a very nice implementation and I am very pleased with its operation.
>
>All of the tools you have come to know and love such as the List Search Engine
>
>and List Browse and Download will still be available and contain all of the
>
>latest posts. Think of the new BBS interface as just another method of accessing
>
>the all of the Lists.
>
>
>You can use the BBS to view all of the latest posts without having to do anything
>
>except use your browser to surf over to the site. You can view and look at
>
>all of the various List's posts. If you want to post a new message or reply
>
>to an existing message from the BBS, you will have to Register on the BBS. This
>
>is a *very* simple process and will only take a couple of minutes. There is
>
>a small icon in the upper righthand side of the main BBS page labeled "Register"
>
>to get you started.
>
>
>I strongly recommend that you use the exact *same* email address you are subscribed
>
>to the Email Lists with when registering on the BBS. Also, while not an
>
>absolute requirement, I would really appreciate it if people would use their full
>
>name when choosing their Username on the BBS (for example "Matt Dralle").
>
>This just makes it easier for everyone to know who's posting. Also, I have enabled
>
>the ability to upload a small user picture with your profile called an
>
>"avatar". Please use a *real* picture of yourself *with* your cloths on! Thank
>
>you! Maximum size of the bitmap is 120x120.
>
>
>You can either be subscribed to the BBS, or any number of Email Lists, or both.
>
>Registering on the BBS will allow you to email directly to all of the various
>
>Lists. However, to receive direct List Email, you will need to be *subscribed*
>
>to the various Lists as you have in the past. No changes here in operation.
>
>I have added numerous links on the BBS pointing to the Email List subscription
>
>page.
>
>
>I've had the BBS connected to the Lists for about a week now, so its already loaded
>
>up with a fair number of messages. You can post photos and other documents
>
>directly to the BBS and links to them will appear in the List Email distributions.
>
>Also, when any messages posted to the BBS are viewed in the List Email
>
>distribution, there will be a URL link at the bottom of the message pointing
>
>back to the BBS.
>
>
>And here's what you've been waiting for -- the main URL for the new Matronics
Email
>
>List BBS is:
>
>
> <http://forums.matronics.com>http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>Please surf on over, Register, and have a great time! I think this will be the
>
>dawn of a whole new era for the Lists at Matronics!
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>
>Matt Dralle
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: 40 MPH Stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Possum" <possums@mindspring.com>
Can you provide a link to the $35 hall asi product?
Thanks,
Charlie
--------------------------------
http://www.hallwindmeter.com/wind.php
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3698#3698
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hallasi_586.jpg
Message 24
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| Subject: | Stall speed / GPS |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" <flht99reh@netzero.com>
Dag-nab-it. I responded to an individual from my e-mail and thought I was responding
to the BBS! Oh well. Some of you will have some fun with this. It combines
my stall speed problem and responses with some information regarding GPS's.
"HEY MATT!!! Do we still use the do not archive or not"!
with that said here is what I responded to George E. Thompson.
Great idea George and others. And back at the last (second flight) I set my Garmin
e-map into the firestar before my instructor moved the plane from my old airport
to his field. With a program called mapsource and a cable to connect the
GPS to the computer, I was able to download the information and view it as a
doc and on the map program (Roads and Recreation). I have enclosed a copy of
the doc file for your and others viewing pleasure / evaluation.
Also with the mapsource program I can see graphically, though I cant seem to capture
and download to a file for others to read or see the altitude for every
crumb. I also through the program can see every move he made with the plane, two
circles and several straight paths. He indicated that he did two stalls. With
the documentation provided you in the 110.doc, can you find them?
I really appreciate this web site, especially on rainy cold days. Thanks guys.
Ralph the other Ralph Hoover..(verses the Good Ralph on this site).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3703#3703
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/110_149.doc
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Stall speed / GPS |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
Ralph,
Interesting file to look at, but without knowing the winds, I don't think it really
tells you anything.
Here is how I check my airspeed: First, I pick a day without much wind. Then, I
try to determine which way the wind is going by watching for drift and comparing
the GPS with the airspeed. When I think I am going straight into the wind,
I fly a a chosen airspeed and make note of the GPS. Then I turn around 180 degrees,
hold the same speed, and get the GPS reading. If I average the GPS readings,
I should have a true airspeed. This process can be repeated to give a more
accurate average. It also can be done for different airspeeds. As long as the
wind is steady and reading are taken while flying nearly into the wind and
180 degrees downwind, the results sould be decent. Flying in any other direction
and trying to average will introduce an error.
To check for accuracy at stall speed, I do the above check at 5 over and assume
that the difference is the same. My Firestar stalls at 38 or 39 when not in ground
effect, 40 indicated, and 3 to 4 mph slower in ground effect.
I never count on ground effect. I never really noticed it when I landed it on short
grass strips, but I do when I ease it onto a paved runway.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3713#3713
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Verner Engines |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" <kiwimick@sfmicro.fsnet.co.uk>
All, Jabs are now 85hp and tappetts are hydralulic so never have to be
adjusted.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot2@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:32 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Verner Engines
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson"
> <kolbrapilot2@comcast.net>
>
> Rick and All,
>
> When I say "BAD," that means that I wouldn't want to be flying in the same
> vicinity of an aircraft with the Verner 133.
>
> I said it had a terrible vibration.
>
> It was 78 hp verse 80 hp on the Jabiru it was going to replace.
>
> I could mount a 3 blade Warp Drive prop instead of the 2 blade Warp Drive
> prop on the Jabiru.
>
> With the gearbox on the Verner 133, it had more torque than the Jabiru
> with the direct drive.
>
> I only flew it long enough to know that I did not want to fly it any more
> and put the Jabiru back on the Kolbra. Sometimes you just "Know" that
> something isn't right.
>
> You can't compare the performance of the Verner 133 to the Jabiru or the
> Rotax 912 ULS because the engines are so different in performance
> capabilities and their intented applications.
>
> As for engine support: Rotax is supported by a long list of retailers. The
> Verner has three reps that I know of and the one I bought mine from was
> worthless. The Jabiru has three dealers here in the USA that I know of. I
> bought mine from Pete, who is now in TN, and supported me every time I
> called him.
>
> The maintenance schedule on the Jabiru was one of my big deciding factors
> to look for something else. The tappet check and headbolt retorque every
> 25 hours gets old real quick when you fly 50 hours on a two week trip and
> have to do them in the middle of no-where.
>
> --------
> John Williamson
> Arlington, TX
>
> Kolbra, 912ULS
> http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3469#3469
>
>
>
Message 27
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Years ago at LGA a DC-9 (?) crashed
because a rock had blown into the elevator-hinge when the pilot ran
up his engines; locked the elevators >>
Hi Russ,
What are the odds of that happening again? If we all operated on the basis
of all those million to one chances we would all stay in bed.
That kind of thinking is being pushed by the hundreds of Health and Safety
Inspectors that swarm over the country wasting every ones time trying to
guard against zillion to one risks.
My village recreation field has goal posts permanently set up for the use of
the local team. Since time began there have been hooks screwed to the back
of the posts to which the groundsman can easily attach the net. The Health
and Safety guys have just ordered that the hooks must be replaced with
closed loops `beacause the goal keeper might catch his finger in a hook`.
There has never been a case of a goal keeper getting his finger caught in
the history of football, but `it COULD happen`
Likewise. We had an ex test pilot who kept his Tiger Moth on my field. He
would have his plane out, checking it when I arrived at the field. I would
get out the Challenger, check it, fly for an hour, refuel and put it away.
He would still be checking.
I am not quite sure what conclusion to draw. Was he safer than me? I dunno.
The odds on either of us getting a rock stuck in the elevator are still
about googleplex to one.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 28
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
I added an additional method >>
Thanks Matt. That was the day my comp failed and I lost a days emails as
they `cannot be downloaded`. It had corrected itself now.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: washout/trim |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
Robert,
Washout refers to a twist that some wings have so that the wing tips will stall
last, maintaining the best control trought stall. Our Kolbs wings are flat, if
built per plans, so washout should not apply. What can happen is that one wing
may be at a different incidence than the other. This could have been caused
by the builder or by what I will call "an aggressive landing". In either case,
it can be checked by comparing the wing incidence at four points, without moving
the plane. You want to measure the wing tips and the wing roots. Level the
wings, side to side, and raise the tail up about 3 feet. Use a four foot level,
and holding it level and up under the trailing edge, measure and record the
distance from the front to the underside of the wing. If the two readings on
the same wing are not the same, you may some twist. If one wing is different
than the other, you have an incidence problem that can be adjusted, by methods
that others have discussed.
If you don't find any significant differences, then you just need a trim tab. No
matter how careful we build them, it doesn't take much to cause the need for
a trim tab.
I flew mine for years before adding trim tabs, then wondered why I waited so long.
It is nice to have it fly straight without having to hold a constant correction.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3733#3733
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: 40 MPH Stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Possum wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Possum" <possums@mindspring.com>
>
>Can you provide a link to the $35 hall asi product?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Charlie
>
>--------------------------------
>
>http://www.hallwindmeter.com/wind.php
>
Ok, can you tell I don't fly UL's a lot? :-)
I read the note & got it in my head that you were talking about an
electronic no moving parts pressure sensor type asi.
Thanks...
Charlie
do not archive
Message 31
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Lloyd McFarlane" <lrmcf@ix.netcom.com>
My Firestar II weighs 415lbs & I weigh 200. I stall at approx. 42mph.
Lloyd McFarlane
Fullerton, CA
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Attach Spacers |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" <dpaule@frii.com>
With the wide gap, the bending strength is a lot less than the direct shear
strength.
And the tangs the bolt goes in are also weaker than the shear strength of
the bolts.
As you might imagine, the fatigue strength is even less than the bending
strength or the strength of the tang lugs ("lug" is what a fitting with a
hole in it for a pin or bolt is called).
Spacers don't affect the bending strength unless they are tight on the pin.
And they don't affect the lug strength unless they are integral to the lug.
However, by reducing relative motion, they reduce chafe and abrasion on the
pin/bolt, and that helps maintain the ample strength of the joint.
Still, experience has shown that the joint is amply robust and quite safe.
Dave Paule
Boulder, Co
================
<< I worry about a shear load spread out over that much length of the pin...
Or is this simply a low load area such that this is plenty of strength? >>
Lucien, and Fellow Kolbers -
The wing spar clevis pin in our Kolbs is a 5/16 inch diameter pin. It is
made of high-strength alloy steel, rated at 125,000 pounds per square inch.
If you do the math, you'll find that this little pin can withstand about
10,000 pounds in shear.....
Dennis Kirby
Cedar Crest, NM
Do not archive
Message 33
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
I originally sent this on the 12th and it didn't show up on the BB. Somehow
or other all that showed up was that I had sent a message, not the body of
the message. So I will try again.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall
>
>
> Ralph,
> I purchased my Firestar in 1997. It weighed 278 lbs. I weighed 230, It
> stalled at 46 MPH. I did a few changes that involved more weight (360) and
> the stall went up a bit but not more than 2 MPH. Then I installed VG's to
> each full rib and the stall dropped to 36 MPH. This last year I put them
> on the false ribs as well and the stall dropped to 26 MPH. I also need to
> tell you that my runway is at 4630 ft above sea level. I believe that
> Possums bought his from Landshorter.com, and paid about $100.00. I made
> mine from plans developed by Howard Shackleford. I have some made from
> alum, and some made from lexan. I believe that I like those the best. I do
> believe that it will cost you about 2 mph on your cruise, but that is a
> choice that I am happy to live with. I know how you feel about the stall
> speed since that was one of the factors that decided me on a Kolb, since
> most of the places that I would be landing would be other than on a
> runway. I too wondered why mine stalled so fast. So I believe that the
> speed you are experiencing is a bit more realistic.
I noticed that the site selling the Halls had some VG'S that look just
like the ones that Mr Shackleford drew up, only theirs was 240.00? for a
kit.
> Larry, Oregon
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: 40 MPH Stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <Lcottrel@kfalls.net>
I originally sent this on the 12th and it didn't show up on the BB. Somehow
or other all that showed up was that I had sent a message, not the body of
the message. So I will try again.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Cottrell"
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall
>
>
> Ralph,
> I purchased my Firestar in 1997. It weighed 278 lbs. I weighed 230, It
> stalled at 46 MPH. I did a few changes that involved more weight (360) and
> the stall went up a bit but not more than 2 MPH. Then I installed VG's to
> each full rib and the stall dropped to 36 MPH. This last year I put them
> on the false ribs as well and the stall dropped to 26 MPH. I also need to
> tell you that my runway is at 4630 ft above sea level. I believe that
> Possums bought his from Landshorter.com, and paid about $100.00. I made
> mine from plans developed by Howard Shackleford. I have some made from
> alum, and some made from lexan. I believe that I like those the best. I do
> believe that it will cost you about 2 mph on your cruise, but that is a
> choice that I am happy to live with. I know how you feel about the stall
> speed since that was one of the factors that decided me on a Kolb, since
> most of the places that I would be landing would be other than on a
> runway. I too wondered why mine stalled so fast. So I believe that the
> speed you are experiencing is a bit more realistic.
I noticed that the site selling the Halls had some VG'S that look just
like the ones that Mr Shackleford drew up, only theirs was 240.00? for a
kit.
> Larry, Oregon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3765#3765
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: nuts n bolts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "bryan green" <lgreen1@sc.rr.com>
Hi Paul, if you want to use the lock nut use the next size longer AN bolt.
You can add up to three AN washers to get the threads right and still be
correct per FAA. All that said if it were my plane I would use the drilled
bolt as per plans. If you bend the cotter pin correctly it should not hang
on anything.
Bryan Green (Elgin SC)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: nuts n bolts
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
>
> Fellow Kolbers,
>
> I am installing the AN hardware in Ms. Dixie for pre final assembly to
> make sure everything fits and works before taking apart for final paint
> and covering. Here is my question.. Drilled AN bolts vs non drilled AN
> bolts and nylon lock nuts... My plans call for drilled AN bolts in some
> areas and non drilled with nylon nuts in others [Question] Personaly I
> like the nylon lock nuts vs the drilled with cotter pins. One reason is
> climbing in and out of the airplane the cotter pins will get caught on
> clothing and human flesh [Shocked] . Problem... One area I want to use a
> non drilled AN bolt with a nylon nut is the control stick bolt. AN-4-7 (I
> think) is to short to get the required 3 threads extruding and the next 2
> sizes will bottom out before snugging up the connection. Can any of the
> experts see a problem with adding a few more threads (via die set) to the
> AN 4 bolt? In addition, why would an aircraft designer choose one type
> fastener over the other?
>
> --------
> Paul Petty
> Kolbra #12
> Ms Dixie
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3621#3621
>
>
>
Message 36
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:
>
>
> What are the odds of that happening again? If we all operated on the basis of
all those million to one chances we would all stay in bed.
> That kind of thinking is being pushed by the hundreds of Health and Safety
>
>
I totally agree, if you go through life worrying about those zillion to one chances,
you will never do anything... That is the worst fate I can immagine, not
living life because of paranoia and fear.
In the end those "safety freaks" are not any safer than the rest of us, because
many times the thing that gets you is something you never thought about.
In flying being paranoid about is not good. We all have a limited amount of attention
and mental capability, we are better off concentrating on known risks
and dealing with them. When you get some nut that worries about far out things
that are never going to happen, that is the guy that will miss something that
is a real danger and kill himself...
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3789#3789
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: nuts n bolts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> As for cutting additional
> threads, I did this a few times but is it OK?
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
>
> ---
No its not OK !!! You will make a sharp cut into the bolt where a crack can easily
start [Shocked] Your cut bolt will be much weaker than it was designed
to be [Evil or Very Mad]
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3793#3793
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: nuts n bolts |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
I believe AN bolt threads are 'roll' cut. All threads on the flying wires on my
Aeronca C3's were rolled instead of die cut. Die cut threads are much more susceptible
to fatigue cracking. Someone may challenge me on the AN bolts but I'm
on firm ground on the Aeronca wires.
Ray .. Tenn.
UltraStar
Do not archive
JetPilot <orcabonita@hotmail.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot"
neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> As for cutting additional
> threads, I did this a few times but is it OK?
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
>
> ---
No its not OK !!! You will make a sharp cut into the bolt where a crack can easily
start [Shocked] Your cut bolt will be much weaker than it was designed to
be [Evil or Very Mad]
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3793#3793
---------------------------------
Photo Books. You design it and well bind it!
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb List Participation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: Kolb List Participation
Quote:
referring to a PM that I recieved and accidentally ended up
sending to the list.
did what I could to debug
how that happened.
Unfortunate......I have to agree that you do have a bug somewhere.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3805#3805
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: nuts n bolts aka rolled thrds |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
Absolutely correct, Ray. A bit like cutting glass...any tiny scratch
can lead to a break with a little pressure.
Can't find my Machinerys Handbook (maybe sold it fer beer money in
'41)...but the thread thing most likely there.
Bob N.
do not archive
Message 41
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Hi Pat/Russ/All,
That very accident is why I and many other pilots I know do repeated
control checks, right to the stops (no 'wigglin'). Can't be too careful
when leaving the ground.
I read that an aviation writer, may have been Bob Buck, witnessed
the accident at the end of a trip. IIRC, the crew was repositioning (5 or 6
killed?).
Ed in JXN(MI)
MkII/503
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: q
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> Years ago at LGA a DC-9 (?) crashed
> because a rock had blown into the elevator-hinge when the pilot ran
> up his engines; locked the elevators >>
>
> Hi Russ,
>
> What are the odds of that happening again? If we all operated on the basis
> of all those million to one chances we would all stay in bed.
> That kind of thinking is being pushed by the hundreds of Health and Safety
> Inspectors that swarm over the country wasting every ones time trying to
> guard against zillion to one risks.
Message 42
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| Subject: | VORTEX GENERATORS |
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
X-Generated-By: M2F: m2f.sourceforge.net
I am building a Kolb MK-III Xtra and have been reading about vortex generators.
People with the Firestars seem to like them, so im wondering if they are worth
putting on the MK-III ? If anyone has done this I would like to konw how
much they help the stall speed and slow speed flying qualities. People with firestars
only report losing a couple MPH in cruise, but being that the MK III
does 80 in cruise with a 912S I would think that the speed penalty might be greater
on a faster airplane.
Michael A. Bigelow
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3814#3814
Message 43
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
edchmiel(at)mindspring.co wrote:
>
>
> That very accident is why I and many other pilots I know do repeated
> control checks, right to the stops (no 'wigglin'). Can't be too careful
> when leaving the ground.
>
>
The procedure in the airlines is for each pilot to do one control check before
takeoff. All the control checks in the world will not help you if a rock gets
thrown into the elevator on takeoff. If you get a guy that is so paranoid about
the controls that he is constantly checking it, repeated times before takeoff,
he will probably forget something just as important such as setting the flaps,
the trim, or a million other things that need his attention. Being paranoid
about any item to the point of distraction is just plain bad.
Michael A. Bigelow
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3816#3816
Message 44
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
Larry Thanks. I have seen the devices you have installed and have read the
views on this site regarding them. I will at some time, no doubt add them.
And I appreciate everyone's assistance. Have you looked at the e-mail post
regarding Stall and GPS? It gives the last trips numbers.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:34 PM
Subject: Fw: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
I originally sent this on the 12th and it didn't show up on the BB. Somehow
or other all that showed up was that I had sent a message, not the body of
the message. So I will try again.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall
>
>
> Ralph,
> I purchased my Firestar in 1997. It weighed 278 lbs. I weighed 230, It
> stalled at 46 MPH. I did a few changes that involved more weight (360) and
> the stall went up a bit but not more than 2 MPH. Then I installed VG's to
> each full rib and the stall dropped to 36 MPH. This last year I put them
> on the false ribs as well and the stall dropped to 26 MPH. I also need to
> tell you that my runway is at 4630 ft above sea level. I believe that
> Possums bought his from Landshorter.com, and paid about $100.00. I made
> mine from plans developed by Howard Shackleford. I have some made from
> alum, and some made from lexan. I believe that I like those the best. I do
> believe that it will cost you about 2 mph on your cruise, but that is a
> choice that I am happy to live with. I know how you feel about the stall
> speed since that was one of the factors that decided me on a Kolb, since
> most of the places that I would be landing would be other than on a
> runway. I too wondered why mine stalled so fast. So I believe that the
> speed you are experiencing is a bit more realistic.
I noticed that the site selling the Halls had some VG'S that look just
like the ones that Mr Shackleford drew up, only theirs was 240.00? for a
kit.
> Larry, Oregon
Message 45
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
Thanks Larry, What is the placement and spacing as well as the number per
wing that you installed? And how did you determine the number and distance?
Would you be interested in making additional ones? And NO I am not a lawyer,
nor would I sue anyone if the didn't work! Also Larry, How did you get them
to adhere?
The other Ralph
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:34 PM
Subject: Fw: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
I originally sent this on the 12th and it didn't show up on the BB. Somehow
or other all that showed up was that I had sent a message, not the body of
the message. So I will try again.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 40 MPH Stall
>
>
> Ralph,
> I purchased my Firestar in 1997. It weighed 278 lbs. I weighed 230, It
> stalled at 46 MPH. I did a few changes that involved more weight (360) and
> the stall went up a bit but not more than 2 MPH. Then I installed VG's to
> each full rib and the stall dropped to 36 MPH. This last year I put them
> on the false ribs as well and the stall dropped to 26 MPH. I also need to
> tell you that my runway is at 4630 ft above sea level. I believe that
> Possums bought his from Landshorter.com, and paid about $100.00. I made
> mine from plans developed by Howard Shackleford. I have some made from
> alum, and some made from lexan. I believe that I like those the best. I do
> believe that it will cost you about 2 mph on your cruise, but that is a
> choice that I am happy to live with. I know how you feel about the stall
> speed since that was one of the factors that decided me on a Kolb, since
> most of the places that I would be landing would be other than on a
> runway. I too wondered why mine stalled so fast. So I believe that the
> speed you are experiencing is a bit more realistic.
I noticed that the site selling the Halls had some VG'S that look just
like the ones that Mr Shackleford drew up, only theirs was 240.00? for a
kit.
> Larry, Oregon
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: 40 MPH Stall |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <Lcottrel@kfalls.net>
I attatched the first set at 11 inches back from the leading edge. These were on
the full ribs. I then attatched the second set on the false ribs and I set those
with the back of the VG's even with the front of the previous set. I have
included the information that I received to make mine. I attatched them with
double sided servo tape from a hobby store. It does well. If for some reason
they don't come through let me know and I will send them to your email. If you
use lexan (1/16 ) You can bend the lexan just as easy as alum, but being clear
it is not necessary to paint them. The color shows right through making them
almost invisible.
Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3836#3836
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs2_150.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs1_153.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs3_184.jpg
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: VORTEX GENERATORS |
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
From: "Larry Cottrell" <Lcottrel@kfalls.net>
X-Generated-By: M2F: m2f.sourceforge.net
I also put them on a Mark III that I had for a while and they definately helped.
I just sent a post about the placement on my firestar wing and (note that the
word is singular, your experience may be different)I found this particular
placement to give me the best benefit. That was 11 inches back on the full ribs,
and the ones on the false ribs were set so that the back of the new ones were
even with the front of the old ones. I did not in the interest of science do
any further experimenting. My result was a stall of 26 MPH. Down from 36 MPH.
I cannot tell you for sure what my original stall was since I put a static port
in the bottom of my pod just under the rudder pedals. When I got the plane
it was stalling at 46 MPH, but as I say I do not know how accurate that was.
Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3837#3837
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: VORTEX GENERATORS |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Putting on? Yes. Slower cruise? No. Check it out.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by:
>
>From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>X-Generated-By: M2F: m2f.sourceforge.net
>Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:35:01 -0800
>To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
>I am building a Kolb MK-III Xtra and have been reading about vortex generators.
People with the Firestars seem to like them, so im wondering if they are worth
putting on the MK-III ? If anyone has done this I would like to konw how
much they help the stall speed and slow speed flying qualities. People with
firestars only report losing a couple MPH in cruise, but being that the MK III
does 80 in cruise with a 912S I would think that the speed penalty might be greater
on a faster airplane.
>
>Michael A. Bigelow
>
>--------
>NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3814#3814
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 49
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Hi Mike,
Not to get in a yellow discharge contest, but none of my many
airline buds are 'limited' to one control check. They're not that rigid in
their ops. If one has the time, no reason not to recheck things. How many
retractable-gear drivers were 'sure' their gear was down when they in fact
forgot? I agree strange things can happen, and I see no problem in a quick
recheck. I know guys who are truly paranoid, and they're no fun to work
with. I don't see how such a recheck is 'paranoia'.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 10:46 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: q
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
>
> edchmiel(at)mindspring.co wrote:
>>
>>
>> That very accident is why I and many other pilots I know do repeated
>> control checks, right to the stops (no 'wigglin'). Can't be too careful
>> when leaving the ground.
>>
>>
>
>
> The procedure in the airlines is for each pilot to do one control check
> before takeoff. All the control checks in the world will not help you if
> a rock gets thrown into the elevator on takeoff. If you get a guy that is
> so paranoid about the controls that he is constantly checking it, repeated
> times before takeoff, he will probably forget something just as important
> such as setting the flaps, the trim, or a million other things that need
> his attention. Being paranoid about any item to the point of distraction
> is just plain bad.
>
> Michael A. Bigelow
>
> --------
> NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have
> !!!
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