Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:59 AM - Re: Re: VG Installation (mike moulai)
2. 01:21 AM - A Kolber Rests (Beauford)
3. 03:50 AM - Re: 10K Club (John Jung)
4. 04:02 AM - Re: Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american (pat ladd)
5. 05:07 AM - Re: A Kolber Rests (GeoR38@aol.com)
6. 06:22 AM - Re: Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american (Jeremy Casey)
7. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: VG Installation (Jack B. Hart)
8. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: VG Installation (Richard Pike)
9. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: VG Installation (Jeremy Casey)
10. 07:07 AM - Re: Re: VG Installation (John Hauck)
11. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american (pat ladd)
12. 07:47 AM - Re: Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american (Robert Laird)
13. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: VG Installation (pat ladd)
14. 07:53 AM - Plug/Plugged Nickel... (David Lehman)
15. 08:49 AM - Re: VG Installation (JetPilot)
16. 10:00 AM - Re: Plug/Plugged Nickel... (OFF TOPIC) (Jeremy Casey)
17. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american (Jeremy Casey)
18. 10:19 AM - Re: VG Installation (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
19. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: VG Installation (Larry Bourne)
20. 12:51 PM - John W. gave a super presentation to the EAA group last night (David Key)
21. 02:13 PM - VG placement (Chris Mallory)
22. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation (mike moulai)
23. 02:29 PM - Re: VG Installation (JetPilot)
24. 02:29 PM - Re: John W. gave a super presentation to the EAA group last night (willuribe@aol.com)
25. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation (Richard Pike)
26. 03:09 PM - VG Installation (possums)
27. 03:20 PM - Re: VG Installation (JetPilot)
28. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation (Chris Mallory)
29. 03:30 PM - Re: VG Installation (possums)
30. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design (John Hauck)
31. 05:18 PM - Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design (JetPilot)
32. 05:21 PM - Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design (JetPilot)
33. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design (Jeremy Casey)
34. 05:46 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design (Jeremy Casey)
35. 05:48 PM - High Altitude Flying With The 912ULS (John Hauck)
36. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design (Herb Gayheart)
37. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com)
38. 07:19 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation (Robert Laird)
39. 08:35 PM - Re: Re: Evening flight (DAquaNut@AOL.COM)
40. 09:00 PM - Re: 10K Club (R. Hankins)
41. 11:39 PM - Re: Re: VG Installation (Larry Bourne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" <kiwimick@sfmicro.fsnet.co.uk>
All I agree with jetpilot, there is a definate correct position, We have got
UK approval for these on the XTRA and have them fitted to a 582 powered one
and several JAb powered ones and the are fitted in the same place, the posn
is determined by the wing section itself.
I have posted all this in the past.
If we have got UK approval for them rest assured they are in the correct
place for the Mk III wing, nothing ever gets through this system without
full testing, (infact 25hrs flight testing, along with anaylsis and two
confirmation flights, one with the CAA chief test pilotand one with the PFA
chief engineer).
Kind REgards
Mike Moulai
G-CDFA
Xtra/Jab
121 hrs now
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:20 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VG Installation
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Richard Pike wrote:
>> No. Nobody has found the best placement for VG's on a MKIII wing, and
>> nobody ever will. VG's on Kolb's are like Seafoam, 2 strokes vs. 4
>> strokes, and when Vamoose will finally fly. Such topics are endlessly
>> discussed and argued over, but nothing is ever resolved.
>
>
> Hola Diego !!! Hace tiempo que no eschucho nada de ti....
>
> I can not disagree with Richard more on this. There is most definately a
> best place to put VG's. The placement and angle of the VG's is critical
> to get the maximum benefit from them while not inducing to much darg. The
> big question is, has anyone done the testing needed to find out the
> optimum placement of VG's for the MK-III, and that I dont know.
>
> I plan on using the same VG's on my MK-III , so be sure you post your
> results. Baring someone having done testing with them on the MK-III, I
> would put them on as per the instructions provided with them. Wherever
> you end up putting them, make sure you get the placement and angles very
> close, otherwise you might end up with VG's that do not work as well as
> they should.
>
> Michael A. Bigelow
>
> --------
> NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have
> !!!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10692#10692
>
>
>
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Kolbers:
Later today at, 1300 EST, Commander Bernard F. "Skip" Staub, USN, will
reach his final resting place in Arlington National Cemetary.
Skip was a fellow Kolber (UltraStar), an original member of this List, and a career
Fighter Pilot, highly decorated for valor in the Viet Nam war. His
interment will be with full military honors.
Please consider his service to his country, as well as his passing, as we
reach that hour this afternoon.
Well done, Skipper...
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
> In a message dated 2/7/2006 5:56:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> rlaird@cavediver.com writes:
> Wow. Was that with a 503?
>
That was exactly my thought, several years ago, when I read about a Firestar in
Colorado going to 15,800 ASL. But, no, it was a 377. I had a 377 Firestar at
the time, and it made me wonder how high mine would go. I never did find out.
I made one attempt and gave up at 17k. Decided to get an oxygen supply before
trying again. My 503 Firestar II has been to 12k, but it didn't give me the feeling
that it could go much higher. Probably just different weather.
There is already enough about this in the archives, so do not archive.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10803#10803
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
While living in Europe long ago, I was "motoring" along on a rural English
"motorway" when I became a little lost. Saw a crofter working a patch, and
asked him directions "Gov'ner, striit-wye to the round- about, watch the
zebra stripes, keep hard on."
Hi there,
my word you are a merry wight.
Please note that whatever the European Union may think we are NOT part of
Europe. If you really spoke to a `crofter` you were really lost and so was
he. `Crofters` only exist in Scotland and from your superb rendition of the
accent the person to whom you spoke was a Londoner.
No-one has been addressed as `guvnor` except in films since about 1935.
You had a flier once, flew solo across the Atlantic in the `Spirit of
something or other. He was lost too. He landed in Paris when he obviously
should have landed in London. I mean, who in their right mind would go to
Europe when they could come to England.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: A Kolber Rests |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 2/8/2006 4:21:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
beauford@tampabay.rr.com writes:
Kolbers:
Later today at, 1300 EST, Commander Bernard F. "Skip" Staub, USN, will
reach his final resting place in Arlington National Cemetary
Thank you Beauford.
George Randolph
Firestar driver from The Villages, Fl
Rotax 447, 3 blade Ivo, KX, 1991
Do not Archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
<snip>
You had a flier once, flew solo across the Atlantic in the `Spirit of
something or other. He was lost too. He landed in Paris when he
obviously
should have landed in London. I mean, who in their right mind would go
to
Europe when they could come to England.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
<snip>
Mr. Ladd,
You have MANY Americans that would agree with you on that one...got to
spend time around York, south into London, as well as a few days around
Edinburgh and Sterling...but wouldn't give you a plug nickel to cross
the channel ;-) (plug nickel = worthless coin)
Jeremy Casey
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 08:56 AM 2/8/06 -0000, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" <kiwimick@sfmicro.fsnet.co.uk>
>I have posted all this in the past.
>
>From the archives:
Match: #2
Message: #41228
From: "mike moulai" <kiwimick(at)sfmicro.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS
All, The Landshorter VG's we have extensively tested and gained approval
for on our Xtra in the UK are spaced at 3" and at 10% of wing chord, this is
225 millimeters back measured from the front apex of the L/E up over the
camber. Hope this helps.
Mike
Xtra/Jab2200
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
So even though we extensively tested our Kolbs, and the FSII's flight
performance during the 40 hour test period was excellent, we would still
have to wait for a Fed to come and fly it? And then wait for another Fed
to come and fly it? Last week, the FSII clicked over it's first 100
hours, took right at a year. Perhaps your system works quicker, but if
we had had to wait for the Feds to come and fly it, we'd be lucky to
have flown it at all. When I added VG's to my MKIII, I had to advise the
FAA of a major mod in the flying characteristics and then refly a test
period, which is required by the regs.
I think what we have here is a difference in perceptions. In the US, our
perception is to keep the FAA/Feds at arms length. In your situation, it
appears necessary to embrace them. I'm sure your system is better
documented, but I think I prefer our system.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
mike moulai wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" <kiwimick@sfmicro.fsnet.co.uk>
>
> All I agree with jetpilot, there is a definate correct position, We have got
> UK approval for these on the XTRA and have them fitted to a 582 powered one
> and several JAb powered ones and the are fitted in the same place, the posn
> is determined by the wing section itself.
> I have posted all this in the past.
> If we have got UK approval for them rest assured they are in the correct
> place for the Mk III wing, nothing ever gets through this system without
> full testing, (infact 25hrs flight testing, along with anaylsis and two
> confirmation flights, one with the CAA chief test pilotand one with the PFA
> chief engineer).
>
>
> Kind REgards
> Mike Moulai
> G-CDFA
> Xtra/Jab
> 121 hrs now
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:20 PM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VG Installation
>
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>>
>>
>> Richard Pike wrote:
>>
>>> No. Nobody has found the best placement for VG's on a MKIII wing, and
>>> nobody ever will. VG's on Kolb's are like Seafoam, 2 strokes vs. 4
>>> strokes, and when Vamoose will finally fly. Such topics are endlessly
>>> discussed and argued over, but nothing is ever resolved.
>>>
>> Hola Diego !!! Hace tiempo que no eschucho nada de ti....
>>
>> I can not disagree with Richard more on this. There is most definately a
>> best place to put VG's. The placement and angle of the VG's is critical
>> to get the maximum benefit from them while not inducing to much darg. The
>> big question is, has anyone done the testing needed to find out the
>> optimum placement of VG's for the MK-III, and that I dont know.
>>
>> I plan on using the same VG's on my MK-III , so be sure you post your
>> results. Baring someone having done testing with them on the MK-III, I
>> would put them on as per the instructions provided with them. Wherever
>> you end up putting them, make sure you get the placement and angles very
>> close, otherwise you might end up with VG's that do not work as well as
>> they should.
>>
>> Michael A. Bigelow
>>
>> --------
>> NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have
>> !!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10692#10692
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
All I agree with jetpilot, there is a definate correct position, We have
got
UK approval for these on the XTRA and have them fitted to a 582 powered
one
and several JAb powered ones and the are fitted in the same place, the
posn
is determined by the wing section itself.
I have posted all this in the past.
If we have got UK approval for them rest assured they are in the correct
place for the Mk III wing, nothing ever gets through this system without
full testing, (infact 25hrs flight testing, along with anaylsis and two
confirmation flights, one with the CAA chief test pilotand one with the
PFA
chief engineer).
Kind REgards
Mike Moulai
G-CDFA
Xtra/Jab
121 hrs now
<snip>
OK...let me rephrase this discussion just a little...this is kind of
like a story I heard once about the young aeronautical engineer that got
his first really big assignment after getting his first "real"
job...they were designing what became the F-102 Delta Dart as I recall
and the young AE was told "optimize" the wing...this young fellow worked
for weeks and weeks and tried multiple airfoil sections and just worked
the wind tunnel guys to death. His boss finally got wind of his
exploits and started checking up on him. When he asked the young AE
what all the fuss was about he explained all the testing he had been
doing and the results he had gotten so far and smiled proudly. The boss
had a piece of plywood cut to the same dimensions as the test wing they
had been flying in the wind tunnel and after flying it too, they found
that it performed within a couple of percentage points in all
respects...
Lets all remember...VG's are only there to energize the boundary layer
thus preventing separation. As long as the VG's are in front of the
point of separation then they will do their job. You can tweak them a
little forward or whatever but they do the same thing. The exact angle
of cant to them and the exact spacing isn't "critical" (and I put that
in quotes to mean within reason...if you get one at 13 degrees instead
of 15 it certainly isn't worth peeling off glue and trying to reset
it...)
The STC'd VG sets that have limits on how many can be broke off before
you must ground the plane (3 on a wing per the Cessna 152 STC...) is
just horse hockey legal liability lawyer talk...bottom line is they
demonstrated to the FAA that that many missing didn't adversely affect
anything (at least measurably...refer to previous story for a definition
of "measurably" ;-) a fourth one missing won't make the plane due snap
rolls at stall...
Remember these planes built by mere mortals are NEVER going to be
identical...having a little more/less tension on the fabric when gluing
the edges or a iron calibrated a little differently can vary the amount
of fabric sag between the ribs which WILL change the airfoil
section...which would change the "OPTIMUM" position of the VG's...right?
Enough...I'm boring myself now...
Jeremy Casey
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
approval
| for on our Xtra in the UK are spaced at 3" and at 10% of wing chord,
this is
| 225 millimeters back measured from the front apex of the L/E up over
the
| camber. Hope this helps.
|
| Mike
| Xtra/Jab2200
Kiwi Mick:
Was curious how the individual VG placement works out with the rib and
false rib spacing of the wing?
Fabric is naturally pulled down somewhat between the ribs when heat
shrunk. How does VG placement work with these valleys if we use 3"
seperation?
Homer Kolb says these valleys play an important role in the
performance of his wing. Do the VGs interfere with these valleys and
their performance, or does the 225mm place the VGs aft of the valleys.
I'm simply curious. Have no immediate intentions to place VGs on my
wings. Surprisingly enough, I continue to be pleased the way my
airplane has been flying all these years. Haven't found a need to
change/improve their performance, yet.
Take care,
john h
MKIII-2,445.9 hours
912S-1,100.0 hours
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Mr. Ladd,
You have MANY Americans that would agree with you on that one...got to
spend time around York, south into London, as well as a few days around
Edinburgh and Sterling...but wouldn't give you a plug nickel to cross
the channel ;-) (plug nickel = worthless coin)>>
Mr Ladd? Wow, I like that. No need to stand at attention, I was in the ranks
myself once.
You have a nice itinerary worked out there but like so many visitors you
have missed out the best bit. `Go West young man` .
Get out of London as quickly as possible. Train to Bath, 100 miles in 60
minutes.See Bath, (Roman Baths, Abbey, shops) Pick up a car, tour Wiltshire,
(Stonehenge, Salisbury Cathedral, Avebury, Wells) Easy motorway to Exeter
then take to the small roads around the Dorset, Devon, Cornwall South coast
to Penzance or Lands End and back up the North coast or across the Moors.
Recently long haul flights have started between Bristol and the USA so you
have no need to go to London at all. That has to be a plus.
Re `plug nickel`. Please explain. I always thought it was `plugged nickel`.
Having learned American slang from `B` gangster movies I assumed that a
plugged nickel was one that had a hole shot through it, making it worthless.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Laird <rlaird@cavediver.com>
Pat --
We're getting really off-topic, but, I'm curious... ever since the
completion of the Chunnel, and Calais is just a train-ride away, has
the attitude in England changed much about no longer being so
isolated?
-- Robert (whose ancestor was likely the boss of the crofter) Laird
On 2/8/06, pat ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Please note that whatever the European Union may think we are NOT part of
> Europe. If you really spoke to a `crofter` you were really lost and so was
> he. `Crofters` only exist in Scotland and from your superb rendition of the
> accent the person to whom you spoke was a Londoner.
> No-one has been addressed as `guvnor` except in films since about 1935.
>
> You had a flier once, flew solo across the Atlantic in the `Spirit of
> something or other. He was lost too. He landed in Paris when he obviously
> should have landed in London. I mean, who in their right mind would go to
> Europe when they could come to England.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
In the US, our perception is to keep the FAA/Feds at arms length.>>
Hi Richard,
that is what we like too. Unfortunately there is a link between MAUW and
stalling speed which is built into the legal definition of an ultralight.If
you are not an ultralight then you are a light aircraft and you lose all the
advantages of different licensing rules, medical requirement, self
maintenance etc.
With the Jabiru fitted to an Extra at MAUW it was not possible to get the
stall speed low enough to meet the standard required. With the VG`s fitted
the stalling speed came down and it is now simply that with VG`s you can be
a legal ultralight, without them you are not.
Consequently all the testing has now been done by the CAA and now if a kit
is built to the plans and a Jabiru is fitted it will be cleared for flight.
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 14
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| Subject: | Plug/Plugged Nickel... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: David Lehman <david@davidlehman.net>
Copied this from "Word Detective"...
"Not worth a plugged nickel" as an Americanism meaning "worthless" first
appeared in print about 1912, although we can assume "plugged nickel", along
with the similar "plugged quarter" and "plugged peso," were in common usage
long before they made it into print. To "plug" a coin means to remove its
center, usually because the coin is made of a precious metal such as gold or
silver, and to replace the missing part with a cheaper metal "plug." This
sort of larcenous messing with currency has been popular since coins first
appeared millennia ago, and Americans were plugging French, English and
other nations' coins back in the days before we had our own to plug. A
plugged nickel, while it may be accepted at face value by an inattentive
shopkeeper, is, of course, fundamentally worthless.
Incidentally, although we think of the nickel as the quintessential American
five-cent piece, in 1857 the coin known as "the nickel" was made of copper
and nickel and worth only one cent. A three cent all-nickel "nickel"
appeared in 1865, but the nickel we know today (again actually a
copper-nickel alloy) wasn't issued until 1875."...
DVD
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Richard Pike wrote:
>
> I spent a lot of time and effort moving VG's around on my MKIII, and
> eventually settled on what I felt was optimum.
>
That is exactly the type of information I am looking for :) . Since Diego and
I are both putting VG's on our MK-III's, can you post what position and angle
worked best for you. Did you make your own, or did you use the landshorter.com
VG's ?
I understand that every plane turns out a bit different depending on who builds
it, but I think the optimum placement for one MK-III would work well for most
MK-III's (assuming the same design of VG..) Different designs of VG's could
result in different placements... Different models of Kolbs could also be different.
Thanks,
Michael A. Bigelow
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10867#10867
Message 16
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| Subject: | Plug/Plugged Nickel... (OFF TOPIC) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
Another derivative came along with the advent of coin-operated vending
machines...referred to as the "slug". People realized that the proper
sized metal hole punch (used in steel fab shops) could generate a round
metal disk of the proper size to imitate a quarter...a handful of
appropriate sized "slugs" could feed a hungry guy for a week (assuming
the fingerprints were wiped off ;-)
Have found many of them restocking machines at the store I worked at in
high school...
Jeremy
-----Original Message-----
From: David Lehman [mailto:david@davidlehman.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:53 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Plug/Plugged Nickel...
--> Kolb-List message posted by: David Lehman <david@davidlehman.net>
Copied this from "Word Detective"...
"Not worth a plugged nickel" as an Americanism meaning "worthless" first
appeared in print about 1912, although we can assume "plugged nickel",
along
with the similar "plugged quarter" and "plugged peso," were in common
usage
long before they made it into print. To "plug" a coin means to remove
its
center, usually because the coin is made of a precious metal such as
gold or
silver, and to replace the missing part with a cheaper metal "plug."
This
sort of larcenous messing with currency has been popular since coins
first
appeared millennia ago, and Americans were plugging French, English and
other nations' coins back in the days before we had our own to plug. A
plugged nickel, while it may be accepted at face value by an inattentive
shopkeeper, is, of course, fundamentally worthless.
Incidentally, although we think of the nickel as the quintessential
American
five-cent piece, in 1857 the coin known as "the nickel" was made of
copper
and nickel and worth only one cent. A three cent all-nickel "nickel"
appeared in 1865, but the nickel we know today (again actually a
copper-nickel alloy) wasn't issued until 1875."...
DVD
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Entusiastic group aka english/american |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
Re `plug nickel`. Please explain. I always thought it was `plugged
nickel`.
Having learned American slang from `B` gangster movies I assumed that a
plugged nickel was one that had a hole shot through it, making it
worthless.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
<snip>
You are correct Pat...(who says TV is a waste of time...) is one of
those expressions that gets abbreviated over time.
Agree whole-heartedly about London...other than seeing the landmarks
(which there are many for sure) it was just another big city with a
different accent...could have closed my ears and imagined it Chicago or
New York or even Atlanta for that matter...
Jeremy
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
<< The big question is, has anyone done the testing needed to find out the
optimum placement of VG's for the MK-III, and that I dont know. Michael A.
Bigelow >>
Michael, and Kolbers contemplating using VGs -
I can answer this question.
In the past nine years I've monitored this Kolb List, I have seen SEVERAL
detailed reports of our Kolbers' experiences with VG placements. The most
comprehensive analysis I've seen is documented by Richard Pike. In his
wonderfully informative website, Richard reveals how he experimented with
many different placements of VGs, eventually settling on a configuration
that was ideal for his airplane.
This was trial-and-error testing in its purest form. And other Kolbers
(Beauford, Hart, + others) have posted similar reports. This wealth of
information on the topic of VGs in the archives can save us much trouble
from doing the experimentation all over again.
I plan to use Rev Pike's VG placement details when I install the LandShorter
VGs on my Mark-III. And I plan to install 'em only once.
Dennis Kirby
N93Dk, "Magic Bike"
Cedar Crest, NM
Do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Well said, Dennis. Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:18 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VG Installation
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL
> <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
>
> << The big question is, has anyone done the testing needed to find out the
> optimum placement of VG's for the MK-III, and that I dont know. Michael
> A.
> Bigelow >>
>
> Michael, and Kolbers contemplating using VGs -
>
> I can answer this question.
>
> In the past nine years I've monitored this Kolb List, I have seen SEVERAL
> detailed reports of our Kolbers' experiences with VG placements. The most
> comprehensive analysis I've seen is documented by Richard Pike. In his
> wonderfully informative website, Richard reveals how he experimented with
> many different placements of VGs, eventually settling on a configuration
> that was ideal for his airplane.
>
> This was trial-and-error testing in its purest form. And other Kolbers
> (Beauford, Hart, + others) have posted similar reports. This wealth of
> information on the topic of VGs in the archives can save us much trouble
> from doing the experimentation all over again.
>
> I plan to use Rev Pike's VG placement details when I install the
> LandShorter
> VGs on my Mark-III. And I plan to install 'em only once.
>
> Dennis Kirby
> N93Dk, "Magic Bike"
> Cedar Crest, NM
> Do not archive
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | John W. gave a super presentation to the EAA group last night |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" <dhkey@msn.com>
John W. gave a super presentation to the Farmers Branch EAA chapter about
his adventures across the US last night. It was very interesting everyone in
the room was listening intently, nice to hear from someone who knows a lot
through experience. Not only is he extremely knowledgeable about light
aircraft but he is knowledgeable about complying with the FARs. He is a very
positive representative for ultralights, Kolbs and light aircraft. It was
neat to of met him.
do not archive
Message 21
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
All,
I really hate to beat a dead horse here but with regard to the Landshorter
VG's their (Landshorter's) formula calls for installing the VG's at 10% of
the wing chord, which on a FSII would be about 5.6 inches aft of the center
of the leading edge. The spacing between the VGs is recommended to be 1% of
the total wing span (in inches) minus approximately 3' for the cabin area
which for the sake of argument works out to be roughly 3".
My question is : where or on what do you center one pair of VGs? On, the
center of a rib? In the center of the valley? If a pair is centered at
either place then an equal spacing of 3" between VGs cant be maintained (I
assume that all the VG's not just pairs are the be spaced at an equal
distance apart). Also would the VG's stop at the last outboard rib?
Any help would be very much appreciated.
Chris Mallory
Do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" <kiwimick@sfmicro.fsnet.co.uk>
John/All,
I would agree that you guys have a much easier/workable system in the USA,
however we have to bow and scrape and comply with some very strange rules.
We were not trying to re-design Homers wonderful aircraft, we simply had to
make it comply with UK regs with the use of VG's.
The Landshorter type and the 3" pitch falles right in the valleys between
the ribs, but they are well back and not in the deepest portion of the
valley.
I was most happy with the standard aircraft however my choice of fitting
VG's to overcome our issue of stall speed was based upon my engineering
background, test pilot, airworthiness inspector, flight instructor and
approx 7000hrs of flight experience(of which probably only about 450hrs are
are in Kolbs).
I am not saying my setup is better than all others, I was just answering a
question from a fellow Kolber with all the information and data we have
gathered over the last 18 months of flying and testing VG's.
Maybe the air is different over here or something......
Mike
Xtra/Jab 2200
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: VG Installation
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> approval
> this is
> the
>
>
> Kiwi Mick:
>
> Was curious how the individual VG placement works out with the rib and
> false rib spacing of the wing?
>
> Fabric is naturally pulled down somewhat between the ribs when heat
> shrunk. How does VG placement work with these valleys if we use 3"
> seperation?
>
> Homer Kolb says these valleys play an important role in the
> performance of his wing. Do the VGs interfere with these valleys and
> their performance, or does the 225mm place the VGs aft of the valleys.
>
> I'm simply curious. Have no immediate intentions to place VGs on my
> wings. Surprisingly enough, I continue to be pleased the way my
> airplane has been flying all these years. Haven't found a need to
> change/improve their performance, yet.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> MKIII-2,445.9 hours
> 912S-1,100.0 hours
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
I would like to install my VG's only once, and permanently and, Diego has also
stated that is what he wants to do. So the burning question on everyones mind
is where can we see the results of Richard Pikes test, and the magical placements
of the VG's ??? Does he have a webpage or is it buried in the archives somewhere
? Any help finding this would be appreciated.
I feel for you kiwimick, that just sucks beyond beleif that government and the
control freaks have gotten so out of control that you cannot install VG's on your
Kolb... It is my beleif that Kolb designed a great airplane, but technology
advances, and the design should continue to advance along with everything
else. If the Kolbs had not advanced beyond the origional model, most of us
be flying something else, the design of the Kolbs must evolve or it will eventually
die.
Michael A. Bigelow
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10911#10911
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: John W. gave a super presentation to the EAA group last |
night
--> Kolb-List message posted by: willuribe@aol.com
And I wasn't invited? :-(...
Regards,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX but working in Arlington.
FireStar II N4GU
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" <dhkey@msn.com>
John W. gave a super presentation to the Farmers Branch EAA chapter about
his adventures across the US last night. It was very interesting everyone in
the room was listening intently, nice to hear from someone who knows a lot
through experience. Not only is he extremely knowledgeable about light
aircraft but he is knowledgeable about complying with the FARs. He is a very
positive representative for ultralights, Kolbs and light aircraft. It was
neat to of met him.
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Back on January 14th of this year, in response to some questions you
asked about vortex generators, I gave you an answer and posted therein
a link to my web page showing the VG's on the MKIII and also on the FSII.
I have since posted on January 24th another link to the web page
following a query about VG's for the FSII.
These posts are in the archives.
Also, if you go to Google, and simply type in "Kolb MKIII" -
it is my web page that pops up at the top of the list.
I guess you must have missed it... :-\
But anyway, here it is again. Enjoy.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
JetPilot wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
> I would like to install my VG's only once, and permanently and, Diego has also
stated that is what he wants to do. So the burning question on everyones mind
is where can we see the results of Richard Pikes test, and the magical placements
of the VG's ??? Does he have a webpage or is it buried in the archives
somewhere ? Any help finding this would be appreciated.
>
> I feel for you kiwimick, that just sucks beyond beleif that government and the
control freaks have gotten so out of control that you cannot install VG's on
your Kolb... It is my beleif that Kolb designed a great airplane, but technology
advances, and the design should continue to advance along with everything
else. If the Kolbs had not advanced beyond the origional model, most of us
be flying something else, the design of the Kolbs must evolve or it will eventually
die.
>
> Michael A. Bigelow
>
> --------
> NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10911#10911
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
I would assume if you are going to use the "Landshorter" VG's that
you would naturally follow their instructions on where to put
them, as they seem to have already done the wind tunnel
tests and are selling them to the ultralight community knowing
the type of planes we are putting them on.
Mine are at the suggested 10% to 12% (of the cord of the
wing - including the ailerons) back from the leading
edge + about 6.5 inches as measured thru the cord.
I guess we could do our own wind tunnel test- anybody got
a spare one their not using this weekend?
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Thanks a lot Richard, I remember that page now. I got so involved at looking
at all the other stuff you had done, I forgot about the VG's :D Really nice
workmanship in all the pictures I see on your site. I really like how you painted
everything blue with no scratches, etc, makes it look like a new plane.
Michael A. Bigelow
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10917#10917
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
Richard,
Thanks, you have a great site.
Chris Mallory
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: VG Installation
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
> Back on January 14th of this year, in response to some questions you
> asked about vortex generators, I gave you an answer and posted therein
> a link to my web page showing the VG's on the MKIII and also on the FSII.
> I have since posted on January 24th another link to the web page
> following a query about VG's for the FSII.
> These posts are in the archives.
> Also, if you go to Google, and simply type in "Kolb MKIII" -
> it is my web page that pops up at the top of the list.
> I guess you must have missed it... :-\
> But anyway, here it is again. Enjoy.
> http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> JetPilot wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>>
>> I would like to install my VG's only once, and permanently and, Diego has
>> also stated that is what he wants to do. So the burning question on
>> everyones mind is where can we see the results of Richard Pikes test, and
>> the magical placements of the VG's ??? Does he have a webpage or is it
>> buried in the archives somewhere ? Any help finding this would be
>> appreciated.
>>
>> I feel for you kiwimick, that just sucks beyond beleif that government
>> and the control freaks have gotten so out of control that you cannot
>> install VG's on your Kolb... It is my beleif that Kolb designed a
>> great airplane, but technology advances, and the design should continue
>> to advance along with everything else. If the Kolbs had not advanced
>> beyond the origional model, most of us be flying something else, the
>> design of the Kolbs must evolve or it will eventually die.
>>
>> Michael A. Bigelow
>>
>> --------
>> NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have
>> !!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10911#10911
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 06:06 PM 2/8/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
>
>
>I would assume if you are going to use the "Landshorter" VG's that
>you would naturally follow their instructions on where to put
>them, as they seem to have already done the wind tunnel
>tests and are selling them to the ultralight community knowing
>the type of planes we are putting them on.
>Mine are at the suggested 10% to 12% (of the cord of the
>wing - including the ailerons) back from the leading
>edge + about 6.5 inches as measured thru the cord.
Should read:
>back from the leading
>edge = about 6.5 inches as measured thru the cord.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
If the Kolbs had not advanced beyond the origional model, most of us
be flying something else, the design of the Kolbs must evolve or it
will eventually die.
|
| Michael A. Bigelow
Hi Mike:
The wing shape and dimensions of the Kolb have not changed since the
Ultrastar, 1984 or there abouts.
I don't know about the SS and FF. Somebody who does, help me out.
Not really sure about those two. It is Homer Kolb's airfoil and hard
to beat for the job intended.
The Kolbs have gotten bigger, wider, narrower, longer and shorter,
heavieer, beefed up somewhat, but basically the same old Kolb.
john h
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Hi John,
I dont really know that much about the history of Kolbs, but they all look like
they would be fun to fly. The first one I saw in a picture was a really light
plane, with a tiny engine, long legs, but with the strong tube spar wing, and
tube to the tail that we see on all Kolbs. :D
The evoloution I am referring to is the differnt models that are now available
and the improvements that have been made in each one. The firestar now the firestar
II, the MKII now the stronger MKIII, and now the MKIII Xtra. They have
done an excellent job of steadily improving things over the years without ruining
the design and have managed to stay way ahead of the competition.
Michael A. Bigelow
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10937#10937
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
BTW John, there was a thread about 10,000 feet in a Kolb. I was wondering how
high you have been with your 912 S. Did the engine start to lose much power,
how was its performance way up there. Now that I am about to start flying a
912S im really curious how that engine does at high altitudes.
Michael A. Bigelow
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10938#10938
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
Hi Mike:
The wing shape and dimensions of the Kolb have not changed since the
Ultrastar, 1984 or there abouts.
I don't know about the SS and FF. Somebody who does, help me out.
Not really sure about those two. It is Homer Kolb's airfoil and hard
to beat for the job intended.
The Kolbs have gotten bigger, wider, narrower, longer and shorter,
heavieer, beefed up somewhat, but basically the same old Kolb.
john h
<snip>
Correct Mr. Hauck! EXACT same airfoil on everyone of them...matter of
fact other than the different size hole in the spar mounting plates,
they are the exact same ribs... rib spacing changes from model to model,
but the shape of the rib and the distance from leading edge spar to
trailing edge spar is the same.
For what it's worth, common airfoils are certainly not new...Aside from
the 208 Caravan, the 177 Cardinal, and the 210 every Cessna ever built
used the NACA 2412
airfoil...140,150,170,172,180,185,205,206,L-19,Skymasher... the list
keeps going...
Jeremy
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
every Cessna ever built
used the NACA 2412
airfoil...140,150,170,172,180,185,205,206,L-19,Skymasher... the list
keeps going...
Jeremy
<snip>
Correcting myself...exclude the jets...there different critters
altogether.
Jeremy
Message 35
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| Subject: | High Altitude Flying With The 912ULS |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
|I was wondering how high you have been with your 912 S. Did the
engine start to lose much power, how was its performance way up there.
Now that I am about to start flying a 912S im really curious how that
engine does at high altitudes.
|
| Michael A. Bigelow
Hi Mike:
I have been high enough to cross the Rockies anywhere from south to
north, including the Brooks Range in Alaska. Normally, 14,500 to
15,000 feet gives one a comfortable margin. The engine loses some
power, which is normal for a normally aspirated engine. However, it
still performed well, with the MKIII at aprx'ly 1,200 lbs on take off.
Normal procedure to cross the mountains is take off at full throttle
and leave it there until it is time to pull it back for the decent on
the other side. The 912ULS performs well enough to satisfy my flying
requirements.
Take care,
john h
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation/Evolvement of Kolb Design |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
John
"Homer Kolb says these valleys play an important role in the
performance of his wing. "
I wonder what Homer meant ? I have never seen an analysis of the
Kolb airfoil. Modified Clark Y is all that I see.
Reason that I ask; I am toying with the idea of using .016 aluminum
and foam false ribs back to the main spar(d cell) when I build the new
set of single lift strut wings for my Firefly. I intend to keep the
current set of wings intact just in case. :-)
Has anyone ever done an analysis of this airfoil? I think the
US,Firelfy and Firestar all have the same airfoil? I notice that max
chord is around 24 to 25 %.
The modified airfoil on my N3 pup has its max thickness at 30% or so..
Modified Gottingen 387 I think it is called?
Herb
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com
In a message dated 2/8/2006 5:59:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
richard@bcchapel.org writes:
Also, if you go to Google, and simply type in "Kolb MKIII" -
it is my web page that pops up at the top of the list.
I guess you must have missed it... :-\
But anyway, here it is again. Enjoy.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm
Richard,
Just visited your web page. Great job. Good pictures and excellent
explanations. I for one thank you for posting all that FREE information. Now
I
think I might give those VG's a try.
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
Do Not Archive
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Laird <rlaird@cavediver.com>
Hey, Lar, whaddaya think? If you put VGs on Vamoose, will they make
it get up in the air sooner, like they claim? ;-)
-- Robert
On 2/8/06, WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com <WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com> wrote:
> Just visited your web page. Great job. Good pictures and excellent
> explanations. I for one thank you for posting all that FREE information. Now
I
> think I might give those VG's a try.
do not archive
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Evening flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
Group,
I am having so much fun with my Firefly I cant stand it any longer. I
had Miss Bliss up for 2 hours this evening. The wind was knocking me around
pretty good on takeoff and low passes, so I took her up to 3000 ft and it was
smooth and a good bit cooler but I was dressed for it. Tried out a little
venturi I made to get the airspeed to read higher, but it worked too well and
I
will have to work on an adjustment for it. Made 2 landings and bounced it a
bit, but I had it at about 3500 RPMS as was suggested by list members.
Everything is still straight. Those aluminum axles are tougher than I was led
to
believe. I already made up 3 pair of 4130 axles and had them heat treated,
just in case. I flew for 2 hours and burned 3 gallons. Course I was only
playing around. That Firefly climbs about twice as fast as the Wizard I used to
have. I now have 4 hours on it and I'm still a grinnin !!!!
Ed Diebel
Hou. TX ( Firefly--- More fun flyin than
building)
Do Not Archieve
Message 40
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "R. Hankins" <rphanks@grantspass.com>
The 503 on a light KXP will get you up to controlled airspace. It helps if you
catch a wave over the Cascade mountains.
I've been above 12,000 at least ten times and above 14,000 at least three. I agree
with John. If I ever try to get above 14K again I will do it with oxygen.
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10968#10968
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: VG Installation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Didn't someone say something about making it slower ??
I've got the vented valve covers, oil separator, hoses, stock oil pressure
spring............now just hafta find time (and ambition) to install them
and fire it up. Hadta work last weekend - maybe next.
Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: VG Installation
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Laird <rlaird@cavediver.com>
>
> Hey, Lar, whaddaya think? If you put VGs on Vamoose, will they make
> it get up in the air sooner, like they claim? ;-)
>
> -- Robert
>
> On 2/8/06, WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com <WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com> wrote:
>> Just visited your web page. Great job. Good pictures and excellent
>> explanations. I for one thank you for posting all that FREE
>> information. Now I
>> think I might give those VG's a try.
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
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