Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:26 AM - MV Trip (juddlynn@sbcglobal.net)
2. 08:52 AM - Re: MV Trip (John Hauck)
3. 02:27 PM - Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! (Ralph Hoover)
4. 04:55 PM - Re: Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! (planecrazzzy)
5. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! (Kolbdriver)
6. 05:36 PM - Re: SCAM- Kitplanes (Charlie England)
7. 05:59 PM - Re: Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! (Eugene Zimmerman)
8. 07:05 PM - Control Surface Flutter ???? (JetPilot)
9. 07:10 PM - Re: Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! (John Williamson)
10. 07:27 PM - Re: Control Surface Flutter ???? (Richard Pike)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: juddlynn@sbcglobal.net
Just wondering the dates of the MV trip this year. I'm planning on
bringing my RV again this year, towing my Firestar. Let me know how I
can help to organize/haul stuff. Will be travelling from LA.
Do not archive
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Judd:
The planned dates are 19 through 21 May. However, some of us will get
there on 17 and 18 May.
Bring lots of folding chairs, water, and those wonderful hamburgers
you cooked up for us last year. ;-)
Everyone is looking forward to this year's 4th Annual
Unplanned/Unorganized Kolb Flyin at Monument Valley. There are going
to be some new airplanes this year, including yours.
Only three months and counting.
john h
MKIII/912ULS
Message 3
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| Subject: | Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" <flht99reh@netzero.com>
Towers, no not the ones that are at the airports, but the ones everywhere else.
The more I get up (in the air, not out of bed), the more I wonder about the mindset
behind the towers: cell, microwave, radio and God know what else out there.
As I go along the freeway (in an automobile, but soon in the Kolb), I notice that
there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason (from my prospective) as to
when there lit. Tall ones sometimes are lit in some places, while not in other
places during the day. Small or low ones close to the ground and near trees sometimes
are lit and others in clearings are not. Some are during the day, all
day and all night and some, not at all during the day but also not at night.
Some are lit when it is overcast or foggy or raining or dark, but not night, while
others were not. Some that had taller towers near them (within a couple thousand
feet) were not lit if one or another was lit around it. It didn't have
to be the taller one that was lit in conditions where there were two or three
mixed (read: cell, radio, microwave) towers near them. I could go up the freeway
or down the freeway (interstate I-71 or I-70) or major state highways (State
route 3 in Ohio) and it didn't make any difference. Nothing from all outward
appearances indicated any form of uniformity.
Now I know that as ultra heavy drivers we arent supposed to be out more than one
half hour before sunrise or same after sunset. But anyone that flies (or drives
a car) knows that many of those towers blend in to the surrounding community
quite well and on an overcast day darned near impossible to recognize as they
are for the most part "grey" in color. So I decided to do a little research.
What I found out was amazing and worth everyones better understanding. And the
ironic way I found out these things and the proper web sites was in itself
very surprising.
Now I knew what I was looking for: "Towers" and "lighting"! But you should also
know that those words are synonymous with (ready) Airports! So I did some further
analyzing, which I am not all that good at but knew that somebody within
the Federal Avaiation Groups would have to have some major say in what sticks
up in the sky. And I was right. Near airports at airports in airports and effecting
airports. But what I didnt know was that the FAA does not dictate towers
requirements outside of the above (notice I said dictate as in rule, law over,
demand, command). They study the potential effect to entering into, exiting
from, on property and effects upon military set aside areas. In their own words
they do not have authority over location, size, color, lighting, blinking,
flashing: red or white lighting of towers directly. They study, advise, suggest
needs, best suited to air safety effects by towers. Other than approach and
departures slopes and angles, they have no direct say-so!
The FCC has the say-so! Ah-ha!!
And how I found this information was indirectly through (ready) a bird organization
web site. Their concern was that the lights and the towers were major concerns
and killers to migrating birds and that someone has to do something about
those &
%$#$#7 towers. The FAA responded by indication that they are not in authority regarding
the towers that they can only make suggestions. As I continued in my
unwavering persuit of just who in government is monitoring and establishing regulations
regarding flight safety, I came across the book according to the FAA.
This is called Advisory Circular
AC 70/7460-1K Obstruction Marking and lighting (and you may find same by typing
in said same in the search engine of your choice). In this advisory there are
62 pages of information. But I still could not decipher why some little towers
were lit during the day and no tall towers. Or vice-versa. When do they come
on (something to do with lumens and distance) and what takes place if there
are two or three in a near piece of geography or what I call tower farms. It appears
that there are structural concerns, locations concerns for the sake of
power lines, buildings, neighbors etc but no continuity that says all 500 foot
towers must be lit 24/7 or towers above xx feet above nearby vegetation, buildings
or other towers must be lit and blinking at certain times day or night or
anything about visibility regarding them in daylight or the lack thereof. Amazing,
no?
As a matter of fact, If an individual like you or I see a tower that we believe
should be flashing and isnt we wouldnt know who to contact or if by the FAAs
study and subsequent suggestion or the manufacturers installation or the owners
understand or agreement, even if its required to be lit. Now I know that these
arent concerns to everyone around, say like Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Oregon
or other large land masses more sparsely populated. But here in populas Ohio,
Ind, PA, Mich, NY, Ill and many other states they are beginning to become great
concerns. Especially as cell towers are getting put up everywhere, and these
people (Verizon, Sprint, ATT, etc) dont share tower space that often.
And so we dont get confused here with my wrongly directed concerns as to night
flying or flying at the edge of the light envelope. I have to say that the FAA
and our mutual concerns should always be visibility of all obstructions for the
sake of safety. I also know that some will be quick to say know your flight
path or thats what charts are for; read-um! But I would be somewhat confident
in saying; yet I will not speak for the John Haucks of the world, with towers
going up everywhere daily, we need all the help we can get. It only makes sense
(perhaps not common sense (because we wouldnt want some bird to be blinded
and ram into a tower and get killed), that some major simple standard be established
that would say simply if your flying at 800 1400 feet you will know by
the blinking flashing light that there is a tower close by even during the day.
It wouldnt be all that difficult to create a reflector that would cause the
flashing, blinking lights to be invisible at or near ground level but at tower
level or within say 200 -300 feet below, quite visible.
I would really like some feedback here and If the FAA is reading; your advise,
wisdom, input would be very welcome. And if youre a bird lover, Im sure we can
do some multi billion dollar study that would determine bird species in the tower
area, their level of color perception and without eliminating the ability
on the part of us fliers, produce the flashing blinking light in a mutually satisfactory
color.
Ralph of Ohiogood or bad!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12720#12720
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
I was taught to fly with "current" Charts.....They give the Safe alt to fly in
any area....and they also have the towers on them...
Gotta Fly...
--------
The more people I know....
The more I like MY DOG
.
.
.
.
.Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12759#12759
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kolbdriver" <kolbdriver@mlsharp.com>
When I was training for my PPL there were a "cluster" of towers between two
airports we frequented, it took NOAA almost 2 years to get the towers on the
charts.... That was in the 80's
"current" is relative I guess....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of planecrazzzy
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 6:53 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing!
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
I was taught to fly with "current" Charts.....They give the Safe alt to fly
in any area....and they also have the towers on them...
Gotta Fly...
--------
The more people I know....
The more I like MY DOG
.
.
.
.
.Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12759#12759
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: SCAM- Kitplanes |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
remote connection to this thread:
If you haven't been to Sun-N-Fun before, you might not know that the
publisher has a booth there every year & they offer 2 yrs for the price
of one, new or renewal subscription.
If you aren't going & you need to renew, send the money with a friend. :-)
Charlie
Cory Emberson wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Cory Emberson <bootless@earthlink.net>
>
>Hello Paul and Kolb list members -
>
>I forwarded your message to my Editor-in-Chief (Marc Cook) and asked him
>if he knew about this. He forwarded it to Cindy Pedersen, the publisher
>of Kitplanes Magazine. Her message seems to have bounced, so she asked
>me to repost it for you all here. Thanks for the question!
>
>(Attention to Matt Dralle: Please feel free to do a follow-up post if
>this has gone to any other of your lists as well - thanks!)
>
>best regards,
>Cory Emberson
>Contributing Editor
>Kitplanes Magazine
>KHWD
>
>Clarification of KITPLANES Magazine's California business office and the
>Palm Coast, Florida subscriber fulfillment office.
>
>Yes, we do have a telephone renewal effort - it is done through Ebsco
>telemarketing after the subscription has expired. We do ask for a credit
>card number, but it is not necessary- (they can be billed). They are NOT
>offered a better deal if they give us a credit card number - they get
>the standard rates that they also see in the mailed efforts.
>
>We are only contacting our own subscribers. If their profile is marked
>'do not call,' we don't call them. We also do NOT do any outbound new
>business offers to try to get new subscribers. If the call does not
>come from Ebsco or the mail from Palm Coast Data, it is not authorized
>by KITPLANES Magazine.
>
>For any questions regarding the expiration date or to renew directly,
>call subscriber service at 800.622.1065 or access your account
>information online at:
>https://secure.palmcoastd.com/pcd/eServ?iServ=MDEwRjQyNjgwNQ==
>
>Happy landings,
>
>Cindy Pedersen, Publisher
>760.436.4747
>
>
>Paul Petty wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
>>
>>Fellow Kolbers,
>>If you subcribe to Kitplanes magazine beware of a scam to lock in a cheaper rate
asking you for a credit card number. The outfit is out of Floridia. Kitplanes
is out of CA. [Wink]
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>ps. Matt can you post or forward to all matronincs list that may be affected?
>>
>>--------
>>Paul Petty
>>Kolbra #12
>>Ms Dixie
>>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
So what you really want is MORE regulation, right?
What ever you do ,,,,,,,,,, please do not archive
On Feb 16, 2006, at 5:25 PM, Ralph Hoover wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover"
> <flht99reh@netzero.com>
>
> Towers, no not the ones that are at the airports, but the ones
> everywhere else. The more I get up (in the air, not out of bed),
> the more I wonder about the mindset behind the towers: cell,
> microwave, radio and God know what else out there.
>
> As I go along the freeway (in an automobile, but soon in the Kolb),
> I notice that there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason (from
> my prospective) as to when there lit. Tall ones sometimes are lit
> in some places, while not in other places during the day. Small or
> low ones close to the ground and near trees sometimes are lit and
> others in clearings are not. Some are during the day, all day and
> all night and some, not at all during the day but also not at
> night. Some are lit when it is overcast or foggy or raining or
> dark, but not night, while others were not. Some that had taller
> towers near them (within a couple thousand feet) were not lit if
> one or another was lit around it. It didn't have to be the taller
> one that was lit in conditions where there were two or three mixed
> (read: cell, radio, microwave) towers near them. I could go up the
> freeway or down the freeway (interstate I-71 or I-70) or major
> state highways (State route 3 in Ohio) and it didn't make any
> differenc!
> e. Nothing from all outward appearances indicated any form of
> uniformity.
>
> Now I know that as ultra heavy drivers we arent supposed to be out
> more than one half hour before sunrise or same after sunset. But
> anyone that flies (or drives a car) knows that many of those towers
> blend in to the surrounding community quite well and on an overcast
> day darned near impossible to recognize as they are for the most
> part "grey" in color. So I decided to do a little research. What I
> found out was amazing and worth everyones better understanding. And
> the ironic way I found out these things and the proper web sites
> was in itself very surprising.
>
> Now I knew what I was looking for: "Towers" and "lighting"! But you
> should also know that those words are synonymous with (ready)
> Airports! So I did some further analyzing, which I am not all that
> good at but knew that somebody within the Federal Avaiation Groups
> would have to have some major say in what sticks up in the sky. And
> I was right. Near airports at airports in airports and effecting
> airports. But what I didnt know was that the FAA does not dictate
> towers requirements outside of the above (notice I said dictate as
> in rule, law over, demand, command). They study the potential
> effect to entering into, exiting from, on property and effects upon
> military set aside areas. In their own words they do not have
> authority over location, size, color, lighting, blinking, flashing:
> red or white lighting of towers directly. They study, advise,
> suggest needs, best suited to air safety effects by towers. Other
> than approach and departures slopes and angles, they have no direct
> sa!
> y-so!
>
> The FCC has the say-so! Ah-ha!!
>
> And how I found this information was indirectly through (ready) a
> bird organization web site. Their concern was that the lights and
> the towers were major concerns and killers to migrating birds and
> that someone has to do something about those &
> %$#$#7 towers. The FAA responded by indication that they are not in
> authority regarding the towers that they can only make suggestions.
> As I continued in my unwavering persuit of just who in government
> is monitoring and establishing regulations regarding flight safety,
> I came across the book according to the FAA. This is called
> Advisory Circular
> AC 70/7460-1K Obstruction Marking and lighting (and you may find
> same by typing in said same in the search engine of your choice).
> In this advisory there are 62 pages of information. But I still
> could not decipher why some little towers were lit during the day
> and no tall towers. Or vice-versa. When do they come on (something
> to do with lumens and distance) and what takes place if there are
> two or three in a near piece of geography or what I call tower
> farms. It appears that there are structural concerns, locations
> concerns for the sake of power lines, buildings, neighbors etc but
> no continuity that says all 500 foot towers must be lit 24/7 or
> towers above xx feet above nearby vegetation, buildings or other
> towers must be lit and blinking at certain times day or night or
> anything about visibility regarding them in daylight or the lack
> thereof. Amazing, no?
>
> As a matter of fact, If an individual like you or I see a tower
> that we believe should be flashing and isnt we wouldnt know who to
> contact or if by the FAAs study and subsequent suggestion or the
> manufacturers installation or the owners understand or agreement,
> even if its required to be lit. Now I know that these arent
> concerns to everyone around, say like Arizona, Nevada, Texas,
> Oregon or other large land masses more sparsely populated. But here
> in populas Ohio, Ind, PA, Mich, NY, Ill and many other states they
> are beginning to become great concerns. Especially as cell towers
> are getting put up everywhere, and these people (Verizon, Sprint,
> ATT, etc) dont share tower space that often.
>
> And so we dont get confused here with my wrongly directed concerns
> as to night flying or flying at the edge of the light envelope. I
> have to say that the FAA and our mutual concerns should always be
> visibility of all obstructions for the sake of safety. I also know
> that some will be quick to say know your flight path or thats what
> charts are for; read-um! But I would be somewhat confident in
> saying; yet I will not speak for the John Haucks of the world, with
> towers going up everywhere daily, we need all the help we can get.
> It only makes sense (perhaps not common sense (because we wouldnt
> want some bird to be blinded and ram into a tower and get killed),
> that some major simple standard be established that would say
> simply if your flying at 800 1400 feet you will know by the
> blinking flashing light that there is a tower close by even during
> the day. It wouldnt be all that difficult to create a reflector
> that would cause the flashing, blinking lights to be invisible at
> or nea!
> r ground level but at tower level or within say 200 -300 feet
> below, quite visible.
>
> I would really like some feedback here and If the FAA is reading;
> your advise, wisdom, input would be very welcome. And if youre a
> bird lover, Im sure we can do some multi billion dollar study that
> would determine bird species in the tower area, their level of
> color perception and without eliminating the ability on the part of
> us fliers, produce the flashing blinking light in a mutually
> satisfactory color.
>
> Ralph of Ohiogood or bad!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12720#12720
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Control Surface Flutter ???? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Has anyone ever had control surface flutter in a Kolb ? Or the warning signs of
flutter such as them starting to buzz at high speeds ? I am planning on putting
electric trim tabs on all the control surfaces which will add a little weight
to them on the trailing edge (about 8 ounces each), but im hoping not enough
weight to induce flutter. Any information or experience on flutter on Kolbs
would be greatly appreciated.
Michael A. Bigelow
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12792#12792
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Those flashing & blinking & blinking and flashing! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot2@comcast.net>
Hi Ralph,
You must be having one of those days!
The requirements for marking, painting and lighting of towers is very specific.
The FCC is the controlling authority:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/policy/dtv/lighting.html
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/47cfr17_05.html
The FAA has several Advisory Circulars that cover the subject and are made binding
by the FCC:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/736f762742f45ab9862569ee0077ef5e/$FILE/AC70-7460-1K.pdf
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/fd38311187c8a5da86256c690074ffda/$FILE/150-5345-43e.pdf
If you go to these links and do the reading, you will have way more knowledge that
needed by a pilot.
--------
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12794#12794
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Control Surface Flutter ???? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
<http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg6.htm>The MKIII has aileron
counterbalances because the ailerons are bad to flutter. It is most
discomfiting to look at your right wingtip and see it become a blur. I
had added approx 1.5 ounces to the trailing edge of the right aileron
for a manually adjustable trim tab. That was 1.5 ounces too much.
It is even worse to have your rudder start to flutter and immediately
have your wingman sounding very tense in your headset saying "What ever
you are doing, quit - the boom tube is starting to look like a sine
wave!" I had added approximately 3 ounces to the rudder trailing edge
for a nav light and a fixed trim tab. It was way too much.
So now my rudder also has a counterbalance. Remember that web page of
mine that you couldn't find? The rudder counterbalance is on there.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg6.htm
If you are planning on adding 8 ounces to your Kolb control surface
trailing edges, you have your work cut out for you, because they will
flutter. Gare-on-teed. Plan on it.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
JetPilot wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
> Has anyone ever had control surface flutter in a Kolb ? Or the warning signs
of flutter such as them starting to buzz at high speeds ? I am planning on putting
electric trim tabs on all the control surfaces which will add a little
weight to them on the trailing edge (about 8 ounces each), but im hoping not enough
weight to induce flutter. Any information or experience on flutter on
Kolbs would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Michael A. Bigelow
>
> --------
> NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=12792#12792
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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