Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:06 AM - Flying Naked (Edward Steuber)
2. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (ray anderson)
3. 07:18 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (David Lehman)
4. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (jerb)
5. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (David Lehman)
6. 07:54 AM - Re: Flying Naked (flht99reh)
7. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (Ralph)
8. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (John Murr)
9. 09:29 AM - Re: To cut or not to cut? (JetPilot)
10. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (WillUribe@aol.com)
11. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (snuffy@usol.com)
12. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (John Hauck)
13. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (WillUribe@aol.com)
14. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (flht99reh)
15. 07:23 PM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 38 Msgs - 03/02/06 (Vic)
16. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com)
17. 08:06 PM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (John Murr)
18. 09:02 PM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (WillUribe@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber" <esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
All,
I am really tired of this thread but now , hopefully , it is over.. but I
just have to point out the fact that when this country was founded on the "principles
of freedom" the people who actually supported freedom were only about
33% of the total ! The other 66% were Torreys or didn't care...I'll bet those
numbers are pretty close here in this group....
Give Me Liberty
or Give me Death ED in Western NY
PS .. Hope I never have to have my "cold dead fingers "pried
off the stick of my uninsured Ultrastar !
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
My unsolicited advice is ----- if you want to "fly hard" and do acrobatics, buy
an aircraft that is designed for it. Killing one's self in a standard category
plane, flying outside it's limits, puts a bad undeserved name on the aircraft.
Ray
do not archive
Ed Chmielewski <edchmiel@mindspring.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski"
Well said, Denny!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Rowe"
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: To cut or not to cut?
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe"
>
> Dave,
> Remember, In both these cases the Firestars were flown way beyond there
> stated limits for many many hours before the wings failed.
> A five rib Firestar flown inside its limits will not fail in this way.
> Additionally, any aircraft abused beyond its design limits time after time
> will eventually break.
> Relax about the number of ribs in your wing, operate your bird within its
> gross weight envelope like you would operate a Cessna 152 (not the aerobat
> one) and it will last several lifetimes.
>
> Denny Rowe, Mk-3
---------------------------------
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
Ray and Denny...
Thanx for the reassuring words of encouragement...
David
do not archive
On 3/3/06, ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
>
> My unsolicited advice is ----- if you want to "fly hard" and do
> acrobatics, buy an aircraft that is designed for it. Killing one's self in a
> standard category plane, flying outside it's limits, puts a bad undeserved
> name on the aircraft.
> Ray
> do not archive
>
> Ed Chmielewski <edchmiel@mindspring.com> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski"
>
> Well said, Denny!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Denny Rowe"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 12:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: To cut or not to cut?
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe"
>
> >
> > Dave,
> > Remember, In both these cases the Firestars were flown way beyond there
> > stated limits for many many hours before the wings failed.
> > A five rib Firestar flown inside its limits will not fail in this way.
> > Additionally, any aircraft abused beyond its design limits time after
> time
> > will eventually break.
> > Relax about the number of ribs in your wing, operate your bird within
> its
> > gross weight envelope like you would operate a Cessna 152 (not the
> aerobat
> > one) and it will last several lifetimes.
> >
> > Denny Rowe, Mk-3
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
John M & all,
Here's my take and 2 cents on your dilemma. One, the plane has
already 900 plus hours - I don't feel that is a negative, more of a
plus in that it has demonstrated it can handle the normal loads
placed upon it. Next, the two incidences brought up of having wing
failures, it was established both were repeatedly flown hard doing
aerobatics which equates to higher speeds and loads. Being trained
in aerobatics and having owned an aerobatic trainer aircraft, stress
will be induced upon the airframe from increased airspeeds and doing
abrupt maneuvers. Most basic maneuvers like loops, barrel or aileron
rolls if done properly will not place any undo amount of stress upon
the airframe (stay away from tail slides, hammer head stalls which
can turn into tail slides or whip stalls, and snap rolls), however do
them wrong followed by the use of improper recovery techniques can
induce significant loads upon the airframe. Doing airshow type
aerobatics can induce excessive loads beyond the limits of the
airframe which it was never intended to withstand.
You may want to search the archives using search keys of 5 rib and
second key as 7 rib. There is a case similar to yours in which the
party recites his conversation after contacting the factory for there
opinion. Reference message dated 16 Apr 2002 by Ken Korenek.
Now to the real issue, your flying heavy with a 503. The weight and
503, and allowing a back seat passenger were the reason the company
went to the 7 rib wing structure. I am not an engineer but based
upon the comments in that message referenced above I think your fine
as long as you keep the gross weight under 800#. I just wouldn't go
out do any aerobatics, fly it like a Cessna 150.
Having built a Kolb FireFly and a CGS Hawk and comparing their wing
structures, I don't think you have any problem. Unlike the Kolb the
Hawk wing does not use any ribs, instead it uses the forward spar as
its leading edge with shape forming battens that slide into sewn in
pockets between the front and rear (tube) spars to form the curved
shape of the wings upper surface. The bottom surface uses no ribs or
battens relaying on the fabric tension alone between the front and
rear. (The Hawk wing also has the typical wing diagonal
strengthening members.) The Hawk wing is strong and has proven
itself over time. I don't feel the FireStar wing is any weaker.
If you were to rework the wing to the 7 rib configuration based upon
comments from the designer of the Hawk regarding their spar, if you
place a solid aluminum rivet into the vacated rivet holes of the
prior rib locations, that should prevent compression failure of the
spar since the holes are filled. Your other option would be
replacing the spar's. Myself after reviewing the prior post and
comparing the aircraft, I would leave it alone and just fly
it. Don't carry any passenger and don't fly airshow aerobatics. If
your still concerned you might consider buying and installing a BRS,
it would probably be about the same cost you would incur to rebuild
and recover the wings, much less work. It would add another 20-24#.
My conclusion fly it as it is, stay within the gross weight limit of
800# as suggested in the message I referenced above, don't do any
aerobatics, and stay within the never exceed speed, you should be
fine with every day flying, thermals included.
jerb
At 11:21 PM 3/2/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:56 PM
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: To cut or not to cut?
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
> >
> > Damn!...
> >
>
>Dave,
>Remember, In both these cases the Firestars were flown way beyond there
>stated limits for many many hours before the wings failed.
>A five rib Firestar flown inside its limits will not fail in this way.
>Additionally, any aircraft abused beyond its design limits time after time
>will eventually break.
>Relax about the number of ribs in your wing, operate your bird within its
>gross weight envelope like you would operate a Cessna 152 (not the aerobat
>one) and it will last several lifetimes.
>
>Denny Rowe, Mk-3
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
Thanx Jerb...
Now I don't have to contact Barnstormers to place an ad...
Thanx again...
David
do not archive
On 3/3/06, jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
>
> John M & all,
> Here's my take and 2 cents on your dilemma. One, the plane has
> already 900 plus hours - I don't feel that is a negative, more of a
> plus in that it has demonstrated it can handle the normal loads
> placed upon it. Next, the two incidences brought up of having wing
> failures, it was established both were repeatedly flown hard doing
> aerobatics which equates to higher speeds and loads. Being trained
> in aerobatics and having owned an aerobatic trainer aircraft, stress
> will be induced upon the airframe from increased airspeeds and doing
> abrupt maneuvers. Most basic maneuvers like loops, barrel or aileron
> rolls if done properly will not place any undo amount of stress upon
> the airframe (stay away from tail slides, hammer head stalls which
> can turn into tail slides or whip stalls, and snap rolls), however do
> them wrong followed by the use of improper recovery techniques can
> induce significant loads upon the airframe. Doing airshow type
> aerobatics can induce excessive loads beyond the limits of the
> airframe which it was never intended to withstand.
>
> You may want to search the archives using search keys of 5 rib and
> second key as 7 rib. There is a case similar to yours in which the
> party recites his conversation after contacting the factory for there
> opinion. Reference message dated 16 Apr 2002 by Ken Korenek.
>
> Now to the real issue, your flying heavy with a 503. The weight and
> 503, and allowing a back seat passenger were the reason the company
> went to the 7 rib wing structure. I am not an engineer but based
> upon the comments in that message referenced above I think your fine
> as long as you keep the gross weight under 800#. I just wouldn't go
> out do any aerobatics, fly it like a Cessna 150.
>
> Having built a Kolb FireFly and a CGS Hawk and comparing their wing
> structures, I don't think you have any problem. Unlike the Kolb the
> Hawk wing does not use any ribs, instead it uses the forward spar as
> its leading edge with shape forming battens that slide into sewn in
> pockets between the front and rear (tube) spars to form the curved
> shape of the wings upper surface. The bottom surface uses no ribs or
> battens relaying on the fabric tension alone between the front and
> rear. (The Hawk wing also has the typical wing diagonal
> strengthening members.) The Hawk wing is strong and has proven
> itself over time. I don't feel the FireStar wing is any weaker.
>
> If you were to rework the wing to the 7 rib configuration based upon
> comments from the designer of the Hawk regarding their spar, if you
> place a solid aluminum rivet into the vacated rivet holes of the
> prior rib locations, that should prevent compression failure of the
> spar since the holes are filled. Your other option would be
> replacing the spar's. Myself after reviewing the prior post and
> comparing the aircraft, I would leave it alone and just fly
> it. Don't carry any passenger and don't fly airshow aerobatics. If
> your still concerned you might consider buying and installing a BRS,
> it would probably be about the same cost you would incur to rebuild
> and recover the wings, much less work. It would add another 20-24#.
>
> My conclusion fly it as it is, stay within the gross weight limit of
> 800# as suggested in the message I referenced above, don't do any
> aerobatics, and stay within the never exceed speed, you should be
> fine with every day flying, thermals included.
> jerb
>
>
> At 11:21 PM 3/2/2006, you wrote:
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
> >To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:56 PM
> >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: To cut or not to cut?
> >
> >
> > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net
> >
> > >
> > > Damn!...
> > >
> >
> >Dave,
> >Remember, In both these cases the Firestars were flown way beyond there
> >stated limits for many many hours before the wings failed.
> >A five rib Firestar flown inside its limits will not fail in this way.
> >Additionally, any aircraft abused beyond its design limits time after
> time
> >will eventually break.
> >Relax about the number of ribs in your wing, operate your bird within its
> >gross weight envelope like you would operate a Cessna 152 (not the
> aerobat
> >one) and it will last several lifetimes.
> >
> >Denny Rowe, Mk-3
>
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
" I am really tired of this thread but now , hopefully , it is over"
NOT.........Ed shame on you leaving us hang like that. I have found fliers
to be the most intelligent, well read, immersed in cause group of people out
there (next to rocket scientists). I'll bet (not that I gamble) that we are
closer than 66% pro-active and 33% inert.
And for the statement " the people who actually supported freedom were only
about 33% of the total !"
I would have to say EVERYONE SUPPORTS FREEDOM! Just very few interact with
the world in order to maintain it, or are willing to fight for it.
I do love the "prying of my cold dead finders" thing though. You have
touched a cord deep in my heart. Sorry your own state membership can't get a
C.C.W. permit past ol hileray though. After all no one but cops should carry
guns! (I don't know how many bad guys performing illegal acts with illegal
weapons I have had to tell that to).
NOW THIS THREAD CAN DIE!
Live and living hands and fingers Ralph of Ohio
Ditto on the "do not archive" thing!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Steuber
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 8:04 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Flying Naked
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber"
<esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
All,
I am really tired of this thread but now , hopefully , it is over.. but
I just have to point out the fact that when this country was founded on the
"principles of freedom" the people who actually supported freedom were only
about 33% of the total ! The other 66% were Torreys or didn't care...I'll
bet those numbers are pretty close here in this group....
Give Me
Liberty or Give me Death ED in Western NY
PS .. Hope I never have to have my "cold dead fingers
"pried off the stick of my uninsured Ultrastar !
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph" <ul15rhb@juno.com>
-- jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
"My conclusion fly it as it is, stay within the gross weight limit of
800# as suggested in the message I referenced above, don't do any
aerobatics, and stay within the never exceed speed, you should be
fine with every day flying, thermals included.
jerb"
Jerb and all,
The Original 5-rib wing Firestar had a gross weight limit of 535 lbs.
Ralph
Original Firestar
19 years flying it
John M & all,
Here's my take and 2 cents on your dilemma. One, the plane has
already 900 plus hours - I don't feel that is a negative, more of a
plus in that it has demonstrated it can handle the normal loads
placed upon it. Next, the two incidences brought up of having wing
failures, it was established both were repeatedly flown hard doing
aerobatics which equates to higher speeds and loads. Being trained
in aerobatics and having owned an aerobatic trainer aircraft, stress
will be induced upon the airframe from increased airspeeds and doing
abrupt maneuvers. Most basic maneuvers like loops, barrel or aileron
rolls if done properly will not place any undo amount of stress upon
the airframe (stay away from tail slides, hammer head stalls which
can turn into tail slides or whip stalls, and snap rolls), however do
them wrong followed by the use of improper recovery techniques can
induce significant loads upon the airframe. Doing airshow type
aerobatics can induce excessive loads beyond the limits of the
airframe which it was never intended to withstand.
You may want to search the archives using search keys of 5 rib and
second key as 7 rib. There is a case similar to yours in which the
party recites his conversation after contacting the factory for there
opinion. Reference message dated 16 Apr 2002 by Ken Korenek.
Now to the real issue, your flying heavy with a 503. The weight and
503, and allowing a back seat passenger were the reason the company
went to the 7 rib wing structure. I am not an engineer but based
upon the comments in that message referenced above I think your fine
as long as you keep the gross weight under 800#. I just wouldn't go
out do any aerobatics, fly it like a Cessna 150.
Having built a Kolb FireFly and a CGS Hawk and comparing their wing
structures, I don't think you have any problem. Unlike the Kolb the
Hawk wing does not use any ribs, instead it uses the forward spar as
its leading edge with shape forming battens that slide into sewn in
pockets between the front and rear (tube) spars to form the curved
shape of the wings upper surface. The bottom surface uses no ribs or
battens relaying on the fabric tension alone between the front and
rear. (The Hawk wing also has the typical wing diagonal
strengthening members.) The Hawk wing is strong and has proven
itself over time. I don't feel the FireStar wing is any weaker.
If you were to rework the wing to the 7 rib configuration based upon
comments from the designer of the Hawk regarding their spar, if you
place a solid aluminum rivet into the vacated rivet holes of the
prior rib locations, that should prevent compression failure of the
spar since the holes are filled. Your other option would be
replacing the spar's. Myself after reviewing the prior post and
comparing the aircraft, I would leave it alone and just fly
it. Don't carry any passenger and don't fly airshow aerobatics. If
your still concerned you might consider buying and installing a BRS,
it would probably be about the same cost you would incur to rebuild
and recover the wings, much less work. It would add another 20-24#.
My conclusion fly it as it is, stay within the gross weight limit of
800# as suggested in the message I referenced above, don't do any
aerobatics, and stay within the never exceed speed, you should be
fine with every day flying, thermals included.
jerb
At 11:21 PM 3/2/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:56 PM
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: To cut or not to cut?
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
> >
> > Damn!...
> >
>
>Dave,
>Remember, In both these cases the Firestars were flown way beyond there
>stated limits for many many hours before the wings failed.
>A five rib Firestar flown inside its limits will not fail in this way.
>Additionally, any aircraft abused beyond its design limits time after time
>will eventually break.
>Relax about the number of ribs in your wing, operate your bird within its
>gross weight envelope like you would operate a Cessna 152 (not the aerobat
>one) and it will last several lifetimes.
>
>Denny Rowe, Mk-3
>
>
Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
> Jerb and all,
> The Original 5-rib wing Firestar had a gross weight limit of 535 lbs.
>
Does it state this on the plans? My plane is 388 wet and I'm 215 on a good
day. That's 603. Now add 25 for a BRS and I'm at 628. That's well over
535. I was starting to feel better about all this but I just got that sick
feeling back in my stomach. Guess I better skip lunch today! I also need to
put a picture of my plane on my refrigerator to deter me from opening it
more than I should!
Will adding 25 extra pounds by adding a BRS justify adding the extra weight?
Or will this be the straw that broke the camel's back? At least I will have
a chute assuming of course all goes well with the deployment and subsequent
landing.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
There is no need to go to 7 ribs to streingthen your wing. Moving and adding ribs
might get complicated :? You can just:
1. Replace the old ribs with new ones
2. Add angle aluminum to the rib leading and trailing edges as Mr. Hauck Suggested.
This way you get a super strong wing with no redesign needed :D My MK-III has
the same rib streingthing I suggested here, if you would like to see how it
is done I will send you some pictures.
The more I think about this the more I think you should streingthen that wing and
here is why. The wing has LOTS of hours on it, and as Mr. Hauck said fatigue
adds up over time, you have no idea how close it is to its limit. The plane
has a history of aerobatics, only God knows how much and how often, but the
wing has obviously seen more hard use than it was designed for. You are also
at a very heavy weight for the 5 rib Firestar, do you see all these factors
starting to add up ? It would bother me...
When the other Kolb Firestar wing finally failed, it was in straight and level
flight, no abnormal loads were being placed on it at the time [Shocked] . I
would not suggest that everyone rip thier wings apart, as its well proven that
Kolb's are strong and will handle loads that are beyond thier design limits...
But your Firestar sounds like it has been down the same road as the Firestar
that did finally fail :x Your wing has held up to almost a thousand hours
of heavy weights and aerobatics, it might be close to its limit.
Michael A. Bigelow
--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=19378#19378
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
John,
Your 5-rib FireStar has already surpassed the designed limitation due to the
use of the 503 and now your thinking of adding more weight. IMHO you should
be thinking of going back to the Kolb recommended engine for your model
FireStar. That is if your FireStar has not already suffered fatigue, cracks or
warping. If you really want or need the 503 then you should go with the Kolb
recommended 7-rib FireStar.
I remember reading in the builders manual to be very careful not to leave
any scratches on the wing spar when installing the ribs. Now people are saying
it is OK to drill new holes and not worry about the old ones just cover them
with a rivet. I would think that is worse but then what do I know.
Regards,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX
FireStar II N4GU
http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
In a message dated 3/3/2006 9:55:53 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
jdm@wideworld.net writes:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
> Jerb and all,
> The Original 5-rib wing Firestar had a gross weight limit of 535 lbs.
>
Does it state this on the plans? My plane is 388 wet and I'm 215 on a good
day. That's 603. Now add 25 for a BRS and I'm at 628. That's well over
535. I was starting to feel better about all this but I just got that sick
feeling back in my stomach. Guess I better skip lunch today! I also need to
put a picture of my plane on my refrigerator to deter me from opening it
more than I should!
Will adding 25 extra pounds by adding a BRS justify adding the extra weight?
Or will this be the straw that broke the camel's back? At least I will have
a chute assuming of course all goes well with the deployment and subsequent
landing.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: snuffy@usol.com
My plane is 388 wet and I'm 215 on a good
> day. That's 603. Now add 25 for a BRS and I'm at 628. That's well
over
> 535.
and you have an engine that is larger than the plane was designed for.
Do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
,
| Your 5-rib FireStar has already surpassed the designed limitation
due to the
| use of the 503 and now your thinking of adding more weight.
| Will Uribe
Will/Gang:
Without a doubt, your post is the most intelligent one I have read so
far on this thread.
I remember getting ready to build my original FS. Wanted to put a 447
on it, but Homer would not sell me one with the kit. I took the 377
and traded it off to Gerry Olenik for a 447. Just prior to losing my
FS, Homer and I had talked about a 503 for it. I had plans to
circumnavigate the border of CONUS summer of 1990. I had pretty well
worn out the two 447's I kept to keep my FS going so I could make air
shows and fly ins. Not to say anything bad about two strokes and get
that crap started again, but as much as I flew, back then, that is
what it took to keep me somewhat operational at all times. I kept a
447 built on the bench to put in the FS when the need arised. It
always arose a day or two prior to planned departure.
I get the impression some of you think if somebody on the Kolb List
says it is ok to go fly your airplane, then you should relax, go fly,
enjoy, and never consider the circumstances until it comes that
critical time we never want to experience.
I have heard some say, "All I did was hard pull ups on take off."
That won't hurt my Kolb. May not, but one can perform loop in an
original FS pulling far less G's that the individual who likes to pull
up hard and feel those G's. In fact, it is easier to to a nice
symetrical loop with half power than it is will full power. That is
because we suffer from the high mounted pusher configuration.
Performing an inside loop with full power sort of nullifies a lot of
that power trying to overcome the thrust line.
Another thing. If you have never tried to replace a rib on a Kolb,
then you are in for a rude awakening. After the rivets are drilled
out of the main spar gusset, you will find that deep scratches will
occur as soon as you try to slide that bugger off the main spar. Back
in the old days before I learned how to stretch a main spar gusset, we
had a hell of a time trying to get some of those ribs in place on the
main spar tube. Not to mention the many holes that will now be unused
when the ribs are relocated.
I mentioned in a previous post that I would pull the fabric, reinforce
all lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing, which is a
whopping .028" wall 1.5" tube. Then I would reinforce top and bottom
of all 5 main ribs with 3/4 and 1/2 in aluminum angle. While I was in
there, I would reinforce the bow tip at the 45 and 90 deg points with
1/2" tubing tied together with aluminum web to keep the 1/2 tubes in
column. Then I would cover up the wing, paint it, and go fly without
the contant nagging reminder that I might have a couple wings that are
not as strong as they should be.
I can not tell anyone else how to build or how to fly. I won't do
that. Sure, it is easy to tell someone else to go fly, have fun, your
over loaded, over powered antique ultralight is fine and dandy, safe
to fly. Course you ain't sitting in the pilots seat either.
I loved my FS and hated to see it go. However, I learned a hell of a
lot from that little airplane, and even more from the accident. I'd
love to build another one if I had the kit and the time to build, fly,
and enjoy. If I did, I would build the wing as I decribed above. All
5 ribs worth. If I changed my mind and built a 7 main rib wing, I
would still use my mod to strengthen the ribs, bracing of the leading
edge, and the bow tip. Sure, the normal per plans built wing is fine
if flown as intended. Shucks, I would have a hard time lolly gagging
around like an old school marm in the air in a fresh, strong, hauck
modified original FS. I am sure it would not take long to have that
little sucker flying just like it did nearly 20 years ago. ;-)
Take care,
john h
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
Michael,
As I recall the accident, the leading edge wing failure on an early
FireStar happened when trying to recover from a hammer head stall. There were
abnormal loads being placed on it at the time of failure.
Regards,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX
FireStar II N4GU
http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 10:26 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: To cut or not to cut?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
<Snip>
would bother me...
When the other Kolb Firestar wing finally failed, it was in straight and
level flight, no abnormal loads were being placed on it at the time [Shocked]
.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "flht99reh" <flht99reh@netzero.net>
John, I have both the KX drawing and the KHP drawing. I assume (fool that I
am) that the technique you used to slide the ribs without scratching is to
insert a thin piece of clean edged aluminum sheet the diameter approximate
of the spar, circumferentially (of course open at one end to wrap around the
spar). This then would be slid in very carefully from the opposite side of
the rib flange. Am I correct? I also noted spaced centered between the newly
located ribs a lower false rib (5 required). This really appears to be a
massive undertaking by anyone's standards. It would be one thing to do from
scratch (new wings), but wow what a project. I pray I never have to tear
into mine.
And John, if you have reason to come to Ohio at some point, you can play
with my 503 powered Fire star KXP.
Near overwhelmed Ralph in Ohio
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: To cut or not to cut?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
,
| Your 5-rib FireStar has already surpassed the designed limitation
due to the
| use of the 503 and now your thinking of adding more weight.
| Will Uribe
Will/Gang:
Without a doubt, your post is the most intelligent one I have read so
far on this thread.
Take care,
john h
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 38 Msgs - 03/02/06 |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic" <vicw@vcn.com>
If you hurt or kill someone playing baseball, football, riding your bike and
you have Home Owners insurance then you have insurance. If you will read
you homeowners policy you will see that aircraft are not covered.
You might not have any assets but take the case of a friend of mind that hit
a power line with his ultralight without insurance and the court awarded
$150,000 for damages. He also has a large attorney expense which he had
to pay. The attorney wouldn't take the case without money up front so he
had to hock his house. Insurance would have paid the defense cost and paid
the judgment if he lost. Since he lost and didn't have insure he has had
his wages garnished for the rest of his life to pay the judgment. Since he
lived he has to deal with it. If he had died his wife and children would
have had to deal with it.
Also remember, you don't have to be at fault to be sued.
You do whatever you think is best for you.
I think insurance is the cheap solution.
Vic
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com
In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:06:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ul15rhb@juno.com writes:
The Original 5-rib wing Firestar had a gross weight limit of 535 lbs.
Ralph/John Murr/All,
Speaking of the original 1985 design model FireStar with 5 ribs and a Rotax
377 engine. I bought a kit from Homer on June 30, 1989 and have the plans
and builders manual.
I have never seen the gross weight stated in print on any of the
documentation I have, but on page 50 of the builders manual I quote, "The VNE of
the
FireStar in calm air is 75 MPH. As the air gets turbulent, reduce your speed
accordingly. This airplane has a light wing loading. Stresses go way up if it
is fully loaded and the air gets rough".
I have replaced the 377 engine (at 425 hrs) with a 447, added the 1-1/8 inch
gear legs, brakes, 3/4 canopy, baggage board behind the seat and have a
second chance chute above my head between the wings. Instrumentation is ASI,
EGT, CHT, RPM, compass and ALT. Otherwise it is stock with a 5 gal. fuel tank.
Empty wt. (as an UL) is somewhat fat at about 280 lbs. With full fuel (5
gal. X 6 lb. p/gal.) of 30 lbs., plus my 140 lbs., my gross is at 450 lbs. On
occasion, when I go on a long X-country, I carry 4 more gals. of fuel in two
cans as baggage, adding another 24 lbs., for a gross of 474 lbs. Probably
more, as I didn't include weight for a small tool kit, tie down ropes, fuel
transfer hose, camera, cell phone, wallet full of $$ and other pocket items.
I am a very conservative flyer and do worry about overstressing the plane in
rough air, so I always slow down for a more comfortable ride for me.
John M, you will have to make your own decision on what to do. Modifying
the wing as John H suggested will add strength, but it also adds weight.
Calculate your gross weight carefully. Because of your personal body weight,
you
might be better off with a two place Kolb. By the way, I've been to
Smoketown's breakfast fly-in several times in my Kolb. Weather permitting I will
see
you there this year.
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
Do Not Archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
My gross weight is 600. I guess I'm just too fat for my fat plane! There is
no way I can loose 65 pounds. guess I need a bigger plane!
I'm sure the plane would be ok for someone around 172 pounds. I could lose
the starter and battery and save 25 pounds. That gets it down to 535.
Anybody out there interested in a Firestar? If you look on Frapper you can
see its picture. I live in south central PA and fly out of S37. I also
have an enclosed trailer on Barnstormers.com that it fits in. I just got a
hanger so I'm selling the trailer. I can sell it as a package deal? There is
nothing wrong with the plane that I know of. I just need a bigger plane to
haul me around safer!
John Murr
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WillUribe@aol.com
He John,
Your FireStar sure does have a nice paint job.
http://tinyurl.com/egchl
Regards,
Will Uribe
El Paso, TX
FireStar II N4GU
http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Murr
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: To cut or not to cut?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
<snip>
Anybody out there interested in a Firestar? If you look on Frapper you can
see its picture. I live in south central PA and fly out of S37. I also have
an enclosed trailer on Barnstormers.com that it fits in. I just got a hanger
so I'm selling the trailer. I can sell it as a package deal? There is
nothing wrong with the plane that I know of. I just need a bigger plane to
haul me around safer!
John Murr
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