Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:44 AM - Re: Leading Edge (pat ladd)
2. 12:46 AM - Re: closing down. (pat ladd)
3. 12:50 AM - Re: Leading edge failures (Dave Bigelow)
4. 01:13 AM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (pat ladd)
5. 05:16 AM - Re: Evening Flight (Eugene Zimmerman)
6. 07:56 AM - Re: Leading edge failures (Kirk Smith)
7. 09:09 AM - Re: Evening Flight (jerb)
8. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: BRS 5 Installation on Original Firestar (jerb)
9. 09:45 AM - Re: Evening Flight (DAquaNut@aol.com)
10. 10:04 AM - Re: Evening Flight (DAquaNut@aol.com)
11. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: BRS 5 Installation on Original Firestar (John Murr)
12. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: Leading edge failures (Jack B. Hart)
13. 11:26 AM - Re: Evening Flight (Jack B. Hart)
14. 12:08 PM - Re: Re: To cut or not to cut? (Russ Kinne)
15. 12:12 PM - Re: Re: Leading Edge (Russ Kinne)
16. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: Leading edge failures (Kirk Smith)
17. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: Leading edge failures (John Murr)
18. 03:52 PM - Re: Firefly gross weight (DAquaNut@aol.com)
19. 04:38 PM - Re: Evening Flight (Eugene Zimmerman)
20. 04:56 PM - Re: Re: Leading edge failures (Eugene Zimmerman)
21. 05:13 PM - Re: Evening Flight/Operator Problems (John Hauck)
22. 05:25 PM - Re: Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation (Herb Gayheart)
23. 06:00 PM - R100 BMW (Eugene Zimmerman)
24. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation (Dennis Souder)
25. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation (John Hauck)
26. 07:24 PM - Re: Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com)
27. 07:26 PM - Re: Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation (Herb Gayheart)
28. 07:35 PM - Re: Evening Flight (Richard Pike)
29. 07:36 PM - Re: R100 BMW (Herb Gayheart)
30. 07:37 PM - Re: Kolb Twin (Dave Bigelow)
31. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation (John Hauck)
32. 08:53 PM - Re: Evening Flight (DAquaNut@aol.com)
33. 09:16 PM - Re: Evening Flight (DAquaNut@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Leading Edge |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Isn't that the same country that discovered the "Piltdown man">>
Hi Ralph,
the point is the we knew it was a joke all along. It was just that the rest
of the world didn`t catch on
Cheers
Pat :-)
do not archive
--
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: closing down. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
What's a "hanhers"?
Oh good grief. Don`t you have them in your country? I knew that you were 5
hours behind us (minimum) but I hadn`t realised that you were so far behind
in the use of hanhers.
Cheers
Pat :-)
do not archive
--
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge failures |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
I used fiberglass rather than metal to avoid the dent problem. It takes some work
to smooth the fiberglass sheeting over the ribs without wrinkles. The natural
stiffness of the fiberglass prevents sagging between the ribs and false ribs.
It is not attached to the main spar and does not act as a D-tube. It just
stiffens up the leading edge structure and makes for a smooth sag free airfoil.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20300#20300
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
I'm somewhat color blind and have difficulty with red and green. Even
traffic signals gave me trouble until I memorized that the top light is red
..>>
Hells bells Bill, ,
they let you drive a car as well?
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:12 PM, DAquaNut@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 3/7/2006 3:52:10 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> etzim62@earthlink.net writes:
>
> I've never had a leading edge fail or a 2-stroke Rotax quit.
> Ah but I think the weakest link in any Kolb product is always the
> critter in the seat.
> :-)
>
>
> How many hours do you have with a 447? I only have 6 hours on
> mine! I
> think it would be interesting to poll everyone on the list and get
> an hours flown
> to rotax quitting ratio along with the cause of quitting. Anyone
> ever done
> anything like that???
>
> Ed
Hey Ed,
As soon as I hit send on that post I realized I missed one key three
letter word.
" Y-E-T "
I have been flying ultralights since 1980 and have sons and now a
grandson flying 2-stroke Kolbs.
Ironically I personally have no actual experience with a 447 but have
had hundreds of hours with the 377, 503, and 582 Rotax engines and
have never had one unexpectedly quit. Oh yeah, I forgot son Earl did
have a 447 in a Minimax also.
It is no doubt a significant advantage that my sons and I have
experience as professional engine mechanics with a good sense what
can be expected of things mechanical and what is at the root of
mechanical failures.
It is my opinion that the Rotax engines used on Kolb planes today are
well made mechanical devices providing excellent performance
designed to last hundreds, yes , and in some cases even thousands of
hours, if operated within their unique design parameters.
In my opinion most engine failures are due to the software, not the
hardware.
In other words, as I said, the weakest link is not the mechanical
part, but the operator.
Having said that,,,,,,,,,,,
A good operator always knows that everything mechanical is subject to
failure and is prepared to deal with it.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge failures |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
"Another way to stiffen up the leading edge of the wing and to keep the ribs in
column is to cover from the leading edge back to the high point of the airfoil
with thin fiberglass sheet or aluminum. Rivet the thin sheet to each rib and
false rib at about two inch intervals. It adds a couple of pounds to each wing,
but really stiffens up the structure. It also eliminates the sag between ribs
and makes for a cleaner airfoil. Do the fabric over the entire wing after the
leading edge covering is intalled.
I built my FS2 wing this way, and I can guarantee that the ribs and leading edge
are not going have any spanwise movement. I think this would be the most simple
and structurally sound modification for a 5 rib wing"
Have you noticed any cracks forming in the ribs where the rivets are?
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20346#20346
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Ed,
How much do you weigh and what's the empty weight of your
FireFly? What wheels are you using?
jerb
do not archive
At 02:10 PM 3/7/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 3/7/2006 8:32:29 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>rlaird@cavediver.com writes:
>
>
>Ed --
>
>Where'd ya go... Volk? or Bailes?
>
>-- Robert
>
>
> >From Volks To Bube's in Alvin and back to Volks, Where I hangar.
> Not a long
>trip, but I just have a little over 6 hours flying time in her. Slowly
>gaining confidence in the plane and 447. I kept what I thought was
>a suitable
>landing spot in sight most of the way. I still have not made a
>decision whether
>it would be better to use flaps If the engine quit. All this talk about wing
>failure seems a waste of time. Of course I built mine, and I fly within the
>parameters it was designed. I think the chances of the 447 quitting are far
>more realistic than the leading edge failing ! I feel more
>attention should be
>focused on the 2- stroke. I think that is the weakest link in any Kolb
>product.
>
>
> Ed Do Not Archieve
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: BRS 5 Installation on Original Firestar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
I mounted a VLS 750 on top of a FireFly - modified the wing root gap
cover to partly cover the front part of the box case (opens at the
rear) - cut and hemmed the opening with elastic rope (3/16" if I
recall right) so it would pull up snug over the top front edge
veeing out towards and over the sides about half way back on the case
- the elastic rope makes it pull up snug against the sides, the
rocket and around the back. Turned out and worked pretty good.
jerb
At 05:42 PM 3/7/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
>
>
>jdm(at)wideworld.net wrote:
> > OK, now that you've got my attention, where is the best place to
> but the BRS 5 750 canister? John Murr
>
>
>John,
>
>I have a soft pack in the gap seal. But if I had already owned a
>canister, I would have mounted it in front of the engine, like so
>many others have. BRS should have instructions for how to mount it
>on a Firestar.
>
>--------
>John Jung
>Firestar II N6163J
>Surprise, AZ
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20213#20213
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
In a message dated 3/8/2006 7:17:08 A.M. Central Standard Time,
etzim62@earthlink.net writes:
Having said that,,,,,,,,,,,
A good operator always knows that everything mechanical is subject to
failure and is prepared to deal with it.
Eugene,
Are you suggesting that a majority of Rotax failures come as a result of
improper maintenance, Not paying attention to warning signs or sounds,
improper oil mix ratio, which would fall into the category of pilot ERROR? I had
a
Kawasaki 440 that served me well for 117 hours till I sold the plane. Never
quit once. I never heard of one quitting! I heard of Cayunas quitting a few
times. There were not many Rotaxes around in 82 so I didn't hear much about
them! I understand without proper care and maintenance no engine will
last long, but I do know 2-cycles are less forgiving and more prone to seizure
than a 4-stroke. Maybe this list has made me paranoid. I know I was worried
about bending an axle because of all the talk on the list. So far I have made
28 landings and have not bent a gear yet. Im sure my time will come , but I
hope my fear of the Rotax is like my fear was of bending a leg.
Ed (Firefly # 62)
do not archieve
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
In a message dated 3/8/2006 11:10:41 A.M. Central Standard Time,
ulflyer@verizon.net writes:
How much do you weigh and what's the empty weight of your
FireFly? What wheels are you using?
jerb
Jerb,
My Firefly weighed 252 when I weighed it with small wheels. The way she
sits with BRS ,and 6" auzusa plastic wheels, with disc brakes made from table
saw blade discs is 286 lbs. According to the scales I used I am over weight
by 8 lbs., but I feel safer with brakes. I weigh 185lbs. Am I exceeding
gross? What is gross weight for the Firefly. I cannot find it in the Kolb Manual
or the Plans.
Ed
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: BRS 5 Installation on Original Firestar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
Thanks!
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerb" <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: BRS 5 Installation on Original Firestar
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
>
> I mounted a VLS 750 on top of a FireFly - modified the wing root gap
> cover to partly cover the front part of the box case (opens at the
> rear) - cut and hemmed the opening with elastic rope (3/16" if I
> recall right) so it would pull up snug over the top front edge
> veeing out towards and over the sides about half way back on the case
> - the elastic rope makes it pull up snug against the sides, the
> rocket and around the back. Turned out and worked pretty good.
> jerb
>
> At 05:42 PM 3/7/2006, you wrote:
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>jdm(at)wideworld.net wrote:
>> > OK, now that you've got my attention, where is the best place to
>> but the BRS 5 750 canister? John Murr
>>
>>
>>John,
>>
>>I have a soft pack in the gap seal. But if I had already owned a
>>canister, I would have mounted it in front of the engine, like so
>>many others have. BRS should have instructions for how to mount it
>>on a Firestar.
>>
>>--------
>>John Jung
>>Firestar II N6163J
>>Surprise, AZ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20213#20213
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge failures |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 07:54 AM 3/8/06 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
>
>"Another way to stiffen up the leading edge of the wing and to keep the ribs in
column is to cover from the leading edge back to the high point of the airfoil
with thin fiberglass sheet or aluminum.
>
Kirk, & Kolbers,
This thread has really been interesting. To stabilize the leading edge wing
tube, the FireFly uses one 5/16 OD 0.035 inch thick tube brace starting next
to the most inboard rib from the nose tube back to the center line of main
spar at about a 45 degree angle. Two other shorter braces using the same
size tubing attach to the upper and lower nose rib tubes of the inner most
rib to stabilize the nose rib against the pull of the shrunk fabric.
Addition nose rib column stabilization comes from the fabric.
I question the need for an increase in stiffening the wing leading edge.
Basically, where is the sideways load going to come from that will cause the
nose ribs to be forced out of column? During normal or abusive flight (high
g loads), how is the leading edge tube going to forced sideways to move the
ribs out column?
The only way I can see a leading edge tube diagonal bracing failure is if
the outer wing was to strike the ground or the leading edge tube struck some
fixed object. Then one should cut an inspection hole through the fabric
next to the inboard nose rib to view all three braces.
If I wanted to increase nose rib strength, I believe you would get more for
less weight by adding 1/2 by 1/2 aluminum angle to each nose rib to help
carry rib compressive loads.
Some musings on a cold wet day.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 01:03 PM 3/8/06 EST, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>
>by 8 lbs., but I feel safer with brakes. I weigh 185lbs. Am I exceeding
>gross? What is gross weight for the Firefly. I cannot find it in the Kolb Manual
>or the Plans.
>
Ed
500 pound gross weight.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: To cut or not to cut? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Russ Kinne <kinnepix@earthlink.net>
Only where they drive on the right side!
do not archive
On Mar 8, 2006, at 3:53 AM, pat ladd wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> I'm somewhat color blind and have difficulty with red and green.
> Even
> traffic signals gave me trouble until I memorized that the top
> light is red
> ..>>
>
> Hells bells Bill, ,
>
> they let you drive a car as well?
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Leading Edge |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Russ Kinne <kinnepix@earthlink.net>
Did Bro Jim sleep thru Locks, Picks & Clicks????
do not archive
On Mar 7, 2006, at 6:09 PM, planecrazzzy wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy"
> <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
>
> Hey John,
> That's where a "little" lock picking experiance
> comes in Handy
>
> Gotta Fly...
> Mike in MN / Hobbie-Lock Picking
>
>
> [quote= My mufflers will last
> much longer, now that I have found out a new way to increase their
> life expectancy. If one locks them up in the 5th wheel and leaves
> them in Woodville, FL, with Bro Jim, those SS buggers will probably
> last forever. ;-)
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE[/quote]
>
> --------
> The more people I know....
> The more I like MY DOG
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .Do not archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20205#20205
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge failures |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
Jack?Kolbers
> This thread has really been interesting. To stabilize the leading edge
wing
> tube,
I think so also Jack. The physics of how are little planes work is always
interesting.
.
> Basically, where is the sideways load going to come from that will cause
the
> nose ribs to be forced out of column? >
I asked that same question and have been thinking about it. What if say a
couple of the closest inside false ribs broke? That portion of the fabric
would be pushed down starting a chain reaction towards the wing tip. The
downward bulge in the fabric inducing a sideways force on each upper rib in
succession. Like a wave of sorts. Possibly a vacumn inside the wing helping
suck the fabric even tighter.
> Some musings on a cold wet day.
Do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge failures |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
If you exert pressure on the leading edge until it fails it won't break the
rib tubing. It has to bend. Since being "in column" is not an exacting
concept, it will fold up by swinging to one side or the other favoring the
easiest route to go since it's not built perfect. There are no external
forces to push it other than the LE collapsing and "swinging out of column
under the path of least resistance under the g force applied to it. Adding
cross braces will keep this from happening and under enough force the
leading edge would just crush upward. The question is at what point will it
fail? Out of column at 6 g's? If supported crush upward at 12g's I don't
know but I called BRS today and they e-mailed me pictures for installation
of the canister to the root tube. I generally fly at 1,000 AGL so I feel
safer now with the cute.
If you want to see how this will happen if you can't visualize it, go to the
hanger of the guy who is building one. Take three of your buddies along.
Assuming his plane is framed out and assembled but not covered, have
everyone line up on the leading edge with the wing achored to the ground by
tying the spar tube to the floor so it can't move. Now all at once push
straight up on the leading edge as hard as you can until the leading edge
fails. You will see that it has to swing one way or the other. It helps to
have a few beers first. Oh, don't forget to leave a note for the owner how
his sacrifice educated you and all the readers here!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Leading edge failures
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>
> At 07:54 AM 3/8/06 -0800, you wrote:
>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
>>
>>"Another way to stiffen up the leading edge of the wing and to keep the
>>ribs in column is to cover from the leading edge back to the high point of
>>the airfoil with thin fiberglass sheet or aluminum.
>>
>
> Kirk, & Kolbers,
>
> This thread has really been interesting. To stabilize the leading edge
> wing
> tube, the FireFly uses one 5/16 OD 0.035 inch thick tube brace starting
> next
> to the most inboard rib from the nose tube back to the center line of main
> spar at about a 45 degree angle. Two other shorter braces using the same
> size tubing attach to the upper and lower nose rib tubes of the inner most
> rib to stabilize the nose rib against the pull of the shrunk fabric.
> Addition nose rib column stabilization comes from the fabric.
>
> I question the need for an increase in stiffening the wing leading edge.
> Basically, where is the sideways load going to come from that will cause
> the
> nose ribs to be forced out of column? During normal or abusive flight
> (high
> g loads), how is the leading edge tube going to forced sideways to move
> the
> ribs out column?
>
> The only way I can see a leading edge tube diagonal bracing failure is if
> the outer wing was to strike the ground or the leading edge tube struck
> some
> fixed object. Then one should cut an inspection hole through the fabric
> next to the inboard nose rib to view all three braces.
>
> If I wanted to increase nose rib strength, I believe you would get more
> for
> less weight by adding 1/2 by 1/2 aluminum angle to each nose rib to help
> carry rib compressive loads.
>
> Some musings on a cold wet day.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:Firefly gross weight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
In a message dated 3/8/2006 1:27:37 P.M. Central Standard Time,
jbhart@onlyinternet.net writes:
500 pound gross weight.
Jack,
I am at 518 gross. If your Firefly weighs 254 + 24(BRS) + 30 (fuel)
then max pilot weight would be 192 lbs. If you carried extra fuel you would
really be over weight. The Firefly has a different wing attach than a fire star.
I assume the single strut with steel H support is stronger than the Firefly
set up. Have there been any known structural failures in the Firefly? I am
thinking of going back to the original 4" wheels. Azusa makes makes a new light
weight spun aluminum wheel . They are about 75.00 each. Kinda pricey. Not
sure what they weigh ,but I would like to have a pair.
Ed
Do not archieve
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
On Mar 8, 2006, at 12:44 PM, DAquaNut@aol.com wrote:
> Are you suggesting that a majority of Rotax failures come as a
> result of
> improper maintenance, Not paying attention to warning signs or
> sounds,
> improper oil mix ratio, which would fall into the category of
> pilot ERROR?
Yep, that IS what I am saying.
Let me give you an example of a very common problem Ive seen over
the years.
I've seen guys who think they have an exhaust temp problem, so they
start changing needles and jets and chase the temp gauge all over the
place because they are sure the standard Rotax setup is all wrong.
They put more faith in the reliability and accuracy of a little cheap
temp gauge and sensor than they do in the experience and
recommendations of the company that designed and manufactured the
engine.
Just because the pilot really likes the numbers he see on a gauge
does not mean the engine does.
Because the 2-stroke engine has a much higher output of horsepower
per displacement than the average 4-stroke engine, the 2-stroke also
has much less tolerance and margin for error in its operational
requirements.
If a Rotax engine is running too lean with a stock setup, changing
the needles and jets is almost always merely camouflaging and
temporarily covering up another often more serious problem.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge failures |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
On Mar 8, 2006, at 4:50 PM, John Murr wrote:
> I generally fly at 1,000 AGL so I feel
> safer now with the cute.
Why ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, is she a terrorist or somthin?
Who is this cute yer talking about?
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight/Operator Problems |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman
<etzim62@earthlink.net>
| start changing needles and jets and chase the temp gauge all over
the
| place because they are sure the standard Rotax setup is all wrong.
| They put more faith in the reliability and accuracy of a little
cheap
| temp gauge and sensor than they do in the experience and
| recommendations of the company that designed and manufactured the
| engine.
Gang:
Agree 100%. Amazing how well our outboard motors, weed eaters,
chainsaws operate without any gauges. Nothing to adjust (and screw
up). Fill'em up with gas and oil, run Hell out of them.
Like Eugene said, the engines are designed and tuned at the factory to
operate just like they are, if you prop it correctly. Propping the
engine and airplane correctly is essential. If done properly, your
egt and cht will be in the green.
How do I prop it? Straight and level, WOT (wide open throttle),
straight and level flight, and the tach should just bump the redline.
When propped this way, the aircraft will have the best of both worlds,
climb and cruise. I do the 4 strokes the same way. Works every time.
;-)
I have 150 hours on my Suzuki DRZ400E single four stroke. Not a
single gauge on it anywhere except an hour meter to help me with the
maintenance intervals. Sucker runs like a dream. Very reliable set
up. To bad it wouldn't work on a FS.
Take care,
john h
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
Guys
Changed the subject line to better reflect the conversation..
Let me see if I have it straight?? No Kolb wing has been documented
to fail in normal operation! That would include running headlong at
speed into some mean thermals in the south west..
Only two leading edges have failed and this was the result of flight
way ,way,way above and beyond normal operation.. Aerobatic flight!
Even Dennis told us that he was young and heroic at one time..
I think we have a couple of guys here who are doing damage to the
Kolb Reputation.. Well deserved that it is...
So what are we really talking about?? Someones fears?? That
conversation will last a long time...
Herb --pining for the good old days when Sea Foam and oil choices
ruled!! :-)
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:50:26 -0500 "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
>
> If you exert pressure on the leading edge until it fails it won't
> break the
> rib tubing. It has to bend. Since being "in column" is not an
> exacting
>
Message 23
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
I noticed on the frapper site we have at least one Kolb with a BMW.
It sure would be interesting to hear about how this engine is
working out?
If Tim Warlick is lurking here or if someone knows of him and his plane,
please give us a report on this very interesting engine setup.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Souder" <flykolb@pa.net>
Good words well spoken. I should have thought of saying that - but I didn't
- so thank you Herb!
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Gayheart
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal
operation
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
Guys
Changed the subject line to better reflect the conversation..
Let me see if I have it straight?? No Kolb wing has been documented
to fail in normal operation! That would include running headlong at
speed into some mean thermals in the south west..
Only two leading edges have failed and this was the result of flight
way ,way,way above and beyond normal operation.. Aerobatic flight!
Even Dennis told us that he was young and heroic at one time..
I think we have a couple of guys here who are doing damage to the
Kolb Reputation.. Well deserved that it is...
So what are we really talking about?? Someones fears?? That
conversation will last a long time...
Herb --pining for the good old days when Sea Foam and oil choices
ruled!! :-)
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:50:26 -0500 "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Murr" <jdm@wideworld.net>
>
> If you exert pressure on the leading edge until it fails it won't
> break the
> rib tubing. It has to bend. Since being "in column" is not an
> exacting
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
flight
| way ,way,way above and beyond normal operation.. Aerobatic flight!
| Even Dennis told us that he was young and heroic at one time..
the
| Kolb Reputation.. Well deserved that it is...
Herb/Gang:
I don't believe Dennis Souder intended to test the Ultrastar to
destruction, but it happened. Was not the result of a leading edge
failure, but a drag strut which allowed the wing to fold. The US
Dennis was flying had no drag strut brace. The drag strut brace came
along as the result of Dennis folding the US wing.
My original FS normally never pulled more than 3 to 3.5 G's indicated
on a certified accelerometer (G meter). I can only remember pulling
more than 3.5 G's once, in an attempt to see how much I could pull,
which was 5.0 G's and I really had to work hard to accomplish that.
The aerobatics I flew were well within the stress allowance of the FS.
However, the FS was not and is not an aerobatic aircraft. Have not
flown any aerobatics since 11 March 1990. Think I learned my lesson.
Those of you that like to push the envelope, raise Hell, have fun, but
don't hurt any innocent bystanders.
Please explain the second paragraph above. I am not sure what you
mean and who you are talking about.
If you are referring to me, I do not think sharing my experience,
mistakes, failures, successes is in any way going to damage the
reputation of The New Kolb Aircraft Company. If it was, I am sure
Bruce Chesnut, Donnie Sizemore, and Travis Brown would rap me up side
my hard head or put a boot up my butt to get my attention.
I'm working on a post to the Kolb List now. Hopefully, it will
explain what has happened and how "I" prepared to preclude this from
happening again.
I have never stopped flying Kolbs, mine and factory, since I made my
first flight July 1984. If I had any doubt about the reliability or
safety of Kolb aircraft, I would never get in another one.
I think it is very important, especially on the 5 rib wings, to insure
the lateral bracing is in place. Contrary to popular belief, those
little 5/16" fabric braces on the leading edge will break from
vibration and end up riding on the bottom wing fabric. You can smack
the bottom fabric of the wing with the palm of your hand in all the
rib bays to see if there is anything in there riding around freely.
If there is, you will hear it rattle.
The best way to check the leading edge bracing, which is really fabric
bracing, is make a small slit with a razor blade in the inboard rib
fabric. Get a flashlight and look inside to see what you have. When
you are finished, get a roll of 2" plastic electrical tape and seal up
the hole to keep the windstream and bugs out.
If I was going to fly a 5 rib of my own, I would make the "hauck" mods
to insure I was going to land under the wings and not a parachute. My
own personal desire because I have experienced wing failure and do not
want to ever go through that again. OK? If you had walked in my
shoes, you would understand where I come from.
Take care,
john h
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler, alabama
What others do is their business. Based on history of Kolb aircraft,
there ain't no problem. ;-)
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com
In a message dated 3/8/2006 8:26:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
herbgh@juno.com writes:
Herb --pining for the good old days when Sea Foam and oil choices
ruled!! :-)
Oh Herbie,
You are so funny. hehehe
Billy Varnes
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
John
Uh! Uh!! You would be the last on my list... I do not even want to go
back and look at the last several days of mail to make any named
acusations..
My understanding of your failure was that it did not happen in the
normal flight envelope.. Same for the fatility..
Seems that both accidents have been written about before?
I would be the last to discourage sharing info of any type about
Kolbs and flying them.. Think I have griped about my Firefly going over
on its nose easily... Cannot think of one gripe about the mkIII that I
owned..
Perhaps my building a set of single lift wings muddied the water a
bit? I am doing that just because I like the idea.. Ain't going to toss
the current set of wings... Adding the d cell might have implied some
concern--not so---Just like the idea.
What I was referring to was the harrangue that has gone on about
structural reliability when flown normally with a subject line that was
clearly wrong..
I sensed that a real fear was developing about the Kolb
aircraft,particularly the 5 rib Firestar, with no evidence of a problem..
While TNK does not build a 5 rib wing Firestar, they are clearly
identified with the name..
Ain't gonna defend anyone when they are wrong... Nor out of mis placed
loyalty.. :-)
What I think and likely the last 20 or so years tends to indicate
is:---Kolb makes the strongest airplane of its type in the country. The
aproval by the Brits is a clear indication of that!
Herb
>
> | I think we have a couple of guys here who are doing damage to
>
> the
>
> | Herb --
>
> Herb/Gang:
>
> >
> Please explain the second paragraph above. I am not sure what you
> mean and who you are talking about.
>
> If you are referring to me, I do not think sharing my experience,
> mistakes, failures, successes is in any way going to damage the
> reputation of The New Kolb Aircraft Company. If it was, I am sure
> Bruce Chesnut, Donnie Sizemore, and Travis Brown would rap me up
> side
> my hard head or put a boot up my butt to get my attention.
>
> I'm working on a post to the Kolb List now. Hopefully, it will
> explain what has happened and how "I" prepared to preclude this from
>
>
> john h
> MKIII/912ULS
> hauck's holler, alabama
>
> What others do is their business. Based on history of Kolb
> aircraft,
> there ain't no problem. ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Its what we learn after we know everything that is the most important.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
You got me to thinking about some of the Rotax 2 stroke failures I have
had, I went and looked it up, I have about 1200 hours in front of
various Rotax 2-cycles, and none of them involved what we typically
think of as 2 cycle specific problems. For what it's worth, here they are-
First Rotax was a 277 in a Maxair Hummer, had a spark plug failure from
using Amsoil and leaded gas, it made little lead balls appear between
the spark plug electrodes. (And also because of high EGT's, but back in
1983, Rotax allowed higher normal EGT's than they do currently) A
2-cycle issue? Maybe. A Rotax issue - bad specs for EGT values? Maybe. I
replaced the needle jet and jet needle to lower the temps, no more
problems. An Amsoil/leaded gas issue? Maybe.
Then I had two failures of my secondary ignition system as I developed a
dual ignition for the 277, part of the teething process, my bad, not the
engine's fault. Successful forced landing each time. Not a 2-cycle
issue, not a Rotax issue.
Happened to look back one day just in time to see the K&N filter
loosening itself off the carb, but retained by a safety wiring retainer.
Was over a landfill, landed, reattached it and flew home. Not a 2-cycle
issue, not a Rotax issue.
Then I had a starter rewind spring fail, let the pull cord flop inside
the fan housing, tore the fan to shreds, but the engine kept running,
and I flew to an airport 5 miles away, removed the fan housing, and flew
home, free air. Not a 2-cycle issue, but possibly a Rotax issue. All
this with the 277 over about 13 years and 750 hours. Maintenance during
this time was points, plugs, gaskets, one new set of rings, and one
leaky crankshaft seal.
Then I had a 503 in the Anglin J-6 for about 6 months, no problems.
Replaced the 503 with a 532, bought it used from a dealer in Oklahoma.
After about 150 hours, the crank broke one day at startup, disassembly
revealed a ball-peen hammer mark on one of the journals, apparently the
former owner had some trouble with reassembly following some
maintenance... (@#$%& MORON!) Replaced the crank, that engine is still
doing OK with it's current owner. Not a 2-cycle issue, not a Rotax issue.
Built the MKIII, stuck a low time 532 in it, no problems until the trip
to Oshkosh, had replaced the points as pre-trip preventive maintenance
with a set from Airstar Discount Sales, apparently they sell "Rotax
looking" points, because I had to adjust them in route to get back home,
no other problems on the trip. Not a 2-cycle issue, not a Rotax issue.
A year later, the curlicue exhaust pipe on the side mount exhaust split
in flight, but didn't separate off/go through the prop. Relocated the
exhaust with a Quicksilver style exhaust to back below and under the
gearbox, no problems since. Not a 2-cycle issue, but certainly a Rotax
issue.
A year later, the brass gear on the crank that drives the water
pump/rotary valve slipped a bit (it is pressed in place) and the rotary
intake valve timing changed on climbout, but the engine would still
maintain 5200 rpm, flew 3 miles back to the field and landed. Not a
2-cycle issue, but certainly a Rotax issue.
Replaced the 532 with a zero time 582. ($2800 with a new B box)
Unfortunately, the oil reservoir that I purchased (1.5 gallon Murray
lawnmower gas tank) had a spiderweb/cocoon tucked back up into a corner
that didn't come loose when I filled the tank with gas and sloshed it,
but when it finally did come loose, it blocked off the oil feed line and
starved the engine for oil. No oil = piston seizure, had an uneventful
landing, and had to go to first oversize on the bore. No related
problems since. Not a 2-cycle issue, not a Rotax issue.
Replaced the main jets for a reason I've forgotten, one was an older
used jet, it backed itself out of the carburetor and dropped down into
the float bowl on takeoff, successful off field landing. (Aside from
putting green cow poo spots on my cream colored Stits) Not a 2-cycle
issue, not a Rotax issue.
My opinion is that Rotax was (maybe?) responsible for the lead-balled
spark plug, (or maybe it was Amsoil's fault?) & the broken starter
recoil spring in the 277, the split exhaust in the 532 exhaust pipe,
(however that is apparently a problem that only affects the curlicue
sections of the side mount pipes) and the slipped gear on the 532 crank.
None of those caused an engine stoppage, in each event the engine kept
running and I was able to fly to an airstrip and land.
Obviously others have not been so fortunate, but I am satisfied that
Rotax 2 cycle engines are not as bad as some would make them out to be.
I baby my 582, I get 65 mph at 5100 rpm, the plugs burn clean, the rings
stay free, the carbon is nil, and it burns 3.5 gph. Still not as good as
a four stroke, but close enough for me. The 532 burned a bit less gas,
but didn't run as smoothly, it had flat spots and "chased the pipe." If
I want to go 85 mph, I run 5900 rpm and burn 5 gph. 2-stroke
reliability? I am satisfied that they are good enough. But I also think
that if I had an 80 HP 4 cycle Rotax, I would probably like it better.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
DAquaNut@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 3/8/2006 7:17:08 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> etzim62@earthlink.net writes:
>
> Having said that,,,,,,,,,,,
> A good operator always knows that everything mechanical is subject to
> failure and is prepared to deal with it.
>
>
> Eugene,
>
> Are you suggesting that a majority of Rotax failures come as a result of
> improper maintenance, Not paying attention to warning signs or sounds,
> improper oil mix ratio, which would fall into the category of pilot ERROR? I
had a
> Kawasaki 440 that served me well for 117 hours till I sold the plane. Never
> quit once. I never heard of one quitting! I heard of Cayunas quitting a few
> times. There were not many Rotaxes around in 82 so I didn't hear much about
> them! I understand without proper care and maintenance no engine will
> last long, but I do know 2-cycles are less forgiving and more prone to seizure
> than a 4-stroke. Maybe this list has made me paranoid. I know I was worried
> about bending an axle because of all the talk on the list. So far I have made
> 28 landings and have not bent a gear yet. Im sure my time will come , but I
> hope my fear of the Rotax is like my fear was of bending a leg.
>
>
> Ed (Firefly # 62)
>
>
> do not archieve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Gayheart <herbgh@juno.com>
Gene
BMW MkIII flying or nearly so in Greenville,Ky as I recall? That him?
Herb
On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 20:58:00 -0500 Eugene Zimmerman
<etzim62@earthlink.net> writes:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman
> <etzim62@earthlink.net>
>
> I noticed on the frapper site we have at least one Kolb with a
> BMW.
> It sure would be interesting to hear about how this engine is
> working out?
>
> If Tim Warlick is lurking here or if someone knows of him and his
> plane,
> please give us a report on this very interesting engine setup.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Its what we learn after we know everything that is the most important.
Message 30
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
Look here - project is moving along:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=3398&start=10
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=20500#20500
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge that has never failed in normal operation |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| is:---Kolb makes the strongest airplane of its type in the country.
|
| Herb
That's why I chose it in 1983, finally got the $3,495.00 to buy my
first one in March 1984, and still flying them in 2006.
I looked for 6 months at what was available before I made my final
decision. Back then, nothing came close. Today, it is still my first
choice, because these little airplanes do for me what I want to do in
aviation. Satisfy all my flying desires.
Well...........I wouldn't mind cruising at 150 mph when I get in a
hurry, but I'll give up the unrealistic cruise for all the other
attributes of the Kolbs.
Take care,
john h
MKIII (SN: M3-011)
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
In a message dated 3/8/2006 6:38:57 P.M. Central Standard Time,
etzim62@earthlink.net writes:
If a Rotax engine is running too lean with a stock setup, changing
the needles and jets is almost always merely camouflaging and
temporarily covering up another often more serious problem.
I am with you. I moved my needle clip one notch when my exhaust temps were
high in the mid-range, but it was not until I put more pitch in the prop that
the numbers got in the ball park. I think it was John H. that suggested that.
I also heard that the EGT would go even lower as the air temperature goes
up. I for one feel the manufacture knows his product better than I do so I
will follow their suggestions. So far so good
Ed
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Evening Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
In a message dated 3/8/2006 9:36:23 P.M. Central Standard Time,
richard@bcchapel.org writes:
My opinion is that Rotax was (maybe?) responsible for the lead-balled
spark plug, (or maybe it was Amsoil's fault?) & the broken starter
recoil spring in the 277, the split exhaust in the 532 exhaust pipe,
(however that is apparently a problem that only affects the curlicue
sections of the side mount pipes) and the slipped gear on the 532 crank.
None of those caused an engine stoppage, in each event the engine kept
running and I was able to fly to an airstrip and land.
Obviously others have not been so fortunate, but I am satisfied that
Rotax 2 cycle engines are not as bad as some would make them out to be.
I baby my 582, I get 65 mph at 5100 rpm, the plugs burn clean, the rings
stay free, the carbon is nil, and it burns 3.5 gph. Still not as good as
a four stroke, but close enough for me. The 532 burned a bit less gas,
but didn't run as smoothly, it had flat spots and "chased the pipe." If
I want to go 85 mph, I run 5900 rpm and burn 5 gph. 2-stroke
reliability? I am satisfied that they are good enough. But I also think
that if I had an 80 HP 4 cycle Rotax, I would probably like it better.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Thanks for taking the time to share this info. I will be a little less on
edge when I fly
Ed
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