Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:47 AM - Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (John Jung)
2. 05:40 AM - EIS Questions (Edward Steuber)
3. 07:08 AM - Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Thom Riddle)
4. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (possums)
5. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (John Hauck)
6. 02:16 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Jack B. Hart)
7. 02:49 PM - Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Thom Riddle)
8. 03:07 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
9. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (John Hauck)
10. 03:34 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Rick Miles)
11. 04:50 PM - Upgrades to my Mark III (Roger Lee)
12. 06:00 PM - Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (John Jung)
13. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Richard Pike)
14. 09:29 PM - Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture (Dave Bigelow)
15. 10:40 PM - Re: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture (Carlos)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
John Hauck wrote:
> Hi John J/All:
>
> For the most
> part, most Kolbs I have flown without VG's perform as described by
> those of you that are now flying them, with the major exception of
> shaving 10 mph off the indicated stall speed.
>
> Lot's to be learned about these little critters, VG's and Kolbs.
>
> john h
> MKIII
John H and Group,
That is what I thought, too. It is hard to imagine that such great planes could
be this much better. It is somewhat like the upgrade to the DRE 6000. It is one
thing to read a description the difference and quite another to experience
it.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22460#22460
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber" <esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
Anybody know the evolution of the EIS units you all love so much ...am interested
in the different models as the years went by ...pros and cons ...etc
Thinking about a purchase but need an education ....and I know the answers are
here...
Has this come up before ....archive ?
Steam Gauge Ed in Western NY
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
John,
I made my own VGs for the early Firestar I once had but put them back about 11"
from the leading edge. I think you said yours are at about 8" back. My stall
speed was definitely reduced buy not quite as much as yours, which makes sense
since the high AOA at stall apparently puts your VGs prettly close to the "burble"
point whereas mine were a bit aft of that point and thus less effective.
Mine however had different effects to the stall characteristics. Without VGs the
Firestar's stall was very gentle with mild break. With the VGs the break was
quick and quite abrupt. My cruise power speeds were unaffected by the VGs, probably
because at cruise AOA the VGs were aft of the highest point of the airfoil,
whereas yours are at a relatively high pressure point forward of the airfoil
peak.
As you noted, the landing speed is unaffected because of the three point stance
has an AOA well below the stall AOA. This lack of slowing the touchdown speed
(landings not shorter) and the sharper break were the determinining factors for
me deciding to remove them. I knew beforehand that a slower stall speed would
not reduce the landing speed in any Kolb with short main gear legs but just
wanted to experiment with them and am glad I did. It was fun and proved that
VGs do indeed reduce stall speed.
MY persoanal conclusions:
1. VGs will reduce the stall speed of a Kolb.
2. VGs may of may not changed the stall characteristics, depending upon where they
are installed.
3. VGs may or may not change power required for a given cruise speed, depending
upon where they are installed.
4. Kolbs with long gear legs might actually get a slower touchdown speed and thus
shorter landing roll with properly installed VGs.
5. Wether you make your own or buy store bought ones, makes little difference,
since all they do is twirl the air to where turbulence begins at high AOA without
VGs.
Question about your lower approach speed:
Normal approach speed on final is (according to most authorities) 1.3 x Vs. If
you were stalling at 40 IAS was your final speed about 52 IAS before and now 39
mph (1.3x30)? If so then to land three point I guess you have to speed up 1
mph to land :-).
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22477#22477
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 03:18 PM 3/17/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Possum said to take steep turns at 30 mph. I'm not ready to try
>that, but I did try steep turns at 40 mph. Amazing! My Firestar did
>a good imitation of a glider.
I don't think anything bad will happen.
Even when I stall the plane in one of these turns - the high wing
stalls first and it just drops back to level.
I know that is not what supposed to happen.
It might have done that even before the VGs.
But........ it is certainly easier to heard geese and follow buzzards
when you don't have to run over them or do S-turns.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
speed and thus shorter landing roll with properly installed VGs.
|
| Thom in Buffalo
Thom/Gang:
I have never flown with VG's on a Kolb or any other aircraft, that I
know of. So.....I can only speak from experience without them.
However, many of the attributes claimed after addition of VG's were
there, in our Kolbs, prior to VG installation.
1. Most every Kolb will climb at full power with the stick pulled all
the way back to the stop. Angle of attack is extremely high.
2. Extremely tight turns at extremely high bank angles, left and
right.
3. Very gentle stall characteristics.
4. Fully controllable mush/stall. Permits altitude lose quickly,
while maintaining reduced airspeeds.
5. Equipped with sufficiently tall main landing gear legs, all Kolb
models perform excellent 3 point landings naturally, with or without
full flaps. Touch down speeds, at the break, in ground effect, are
somewhat lower than Kolbs with standard gear legs.
All of the above, with the exception of paragraph 5, can be performed
with any standard Kolb model. The mere thought of the additional
capability of my airplane with a good set of VG's, properly installed,
is frightening............ ;-)
john h
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 07:06 AM 3/18/06 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
>4. Kolbs with long gear legs might actually get a slower touchdown speed
and thus shorter landing roll with properly installed VGs.
>
Thom,
The same is true for standard leg Kolbs. VG's increase wing lift for any
speed above stall. Because of this, any Kolb with VGs can fly a little
slower and generate the same lift as it did at a higher speed before the
addition of VGs.
For a FireFly, it is not necessary to increase leg length to enable slower
touch down speeds. All one has to do is droop the flaperons a few degrees
and it will three point nicely.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Jack,
If the aircraft has flaps or flaperons (my old Firestar had neither) then the nose
down pitch resulting from their use certainly would allow slower landing speeds
at the same angle of attack as without the VGs. This assumes that the VGs
do actually increase lift at this AOA, not merely increase the critical AOA.
In my mental analysis of the situation, I can see this happening only if the
point on the airfoil where the turbulence starts is changed (moved aft) at this
AOA by the VGs presence, thus subjecting more of the upper camber to smooth,
non-turbulent flow which could then produce more effective lift at the same AOA.
I would guess that the only easy/simple way to determine if this is the case for
a particular installation, is to carefully document airspeeds, power (rpm) settings,
and airspeeds in smooth air. A change in any of these (outside known
measurement accuracy) would indicate a change in lift per the equation: Lift =
1/2 rho x V
2 x S(wing area).
The AOA at low speeds (approaching stall) varies quite rapidly with speed changes
but at cruise speeds the AOA changes very little with changes in speed. Therefore
the most likely speed range to detect this change in lift due to VGs would
be at very slow speeds. Perhaps you or others have done this to confirm a
change in lift due to VGs holding all else fixed. I did not bother to do this
sort of documentation because the only location I tried the VGs on resulted in
a rather unsavory abrupt break at stall. Apparently locating them somewhat more
forward would have made a difference in this regard but it would also have
increased drag at cruise and that was not a result I wanted.
Thinking back now, I believe I noticed (didn't document) a slightly lower liftoff
speed in three point with the VGs than without. That sounds like confirmation
of increased lift right there because of necessity, the angle of attack is
fixed.
Sorry for the "thinking out loud" long winded discussion but I think I am now convinced
that they do increase lift at standard Kolb 3-point AOA.
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22540#22540
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
John Hauck wrote:
>
> I have never flown with VG's on a Kolb or any other aircraft, that I
> know of. So.....I can only speak from experience without them.
Any volunteers out there to sneak out to Hauck's Holler some night and
stick a set of VG's on Mr. Hauck's Kolb so that he can enhance his
experience. :-) ~ Earl
P.S. He still might not believe so just put them on the left wing only! :-)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
only! :-)
Will it spin better with VGs on top of left wing, and bottom of right
wing?
Did we ever get a comprehensive report of the experimentation Beauford
T was doing with VGs on the bottom of his wings and top of his helmet?
Got my silencers welded up and ready to reinstall on the MKIII. Was
going to get over and get it done this afternoon, but a gut bug
persuaded me to stay close to the house. Tomorrow is rain. Soon, I
hope to get the old gal flying again to see if I can still fly.
Take care,
john h
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Rick Miles <ultrastarrick@yahoo.com>
nice artical on vgs
http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/182564-1.html
Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman
John Hauck wrote:
>
> I have never flown with VG's on a Kolb or any other aircraft, that I
> know of. So.....I can only speak from experience without them.
Any volunteers out there to sneak out to Hauck's Holler some night and
stick a set of VG's on Mr. Hauck's Kolb so that he can enhance his
experience. :-) ~ Earl
P.S. He still might not believe so just put them on the left wing only! :-)
---------------------------------
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Upgrades to my Mark III |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Hi Everyone,
These are some upgrades that I have done to my Mark III that I thought were worth
while and mentioning.
My Mark III was built in 2000 with a Rotax 912S. It now has 700 hrs.
1. Got rid of the tapered 1 3/8" to 3/4 "diameter 7075 aluminum gear
legs. I installed 7075 aluminum, but used 1 3/8" all the way down. I
also added 4" to each leg. Works out very well and makes for nice
landings. Mains first.
2. Got rid of the standard electric start and put on a heavy duty high
torque starter. I also got rid of my 18 ah battery and went to a 28 ah
battery. Now even when it is 32 degrees out mt Kolb starts just like my
truck. Touch the key and your running. It never cranks. Just instant
starting.
3. Installed TNK's adjustable horizontal stabilizer brackets. These are alot
stronger than the original stainless steel "L" brackets. If you remember
I'm the one that had one of the original "L" brackets break in flight.
You can also adjust each side of the horizontal stabilizer if need be for
little trim issues. There are three holes for adjustment.
4. Just installed a 9 gal. reserve bladder tank from IMTRA. This was
another good addition. I did not want to tear apart the back end of my
Kolb and manufacture a tank and then rebuild the back end. The
bladder tank fits in a couple of different locations. It is more or less a
permanent mount, easy access for fueling and can be removed easly.
5. I also have my Warp drive prop set to max out at 5550 rpm. I have
found that if you make the engine work some it does get better fuel
economy. I cruise at approximately 4800 rpm (give or take a few rpm)
at 80 mph. I get right at 4 to 4.2 gal per hr. I have checked this for a
few hundred hours and it really doesn't change.
6. I installed a Navman 2100 fuel flow meter. This also works very well
and helps me check on fuel burn and keeps track of all of my fuel
usages and it has low fuel alarms.
I have learned alot from the people on this site and I hope this information may
help someone else.
Thanks to all,
Roger Lee :D
Tucson, Az.
p.s.
I just got back from a 620 mile round trip from Tucson to Bullhead City / Laughlin,
NV. What a great trip up the Colorado River. Hope to see everyone in M.V.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22560#22560
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
Thom Riddle wrote:
> John,
>
> Question about your lower approach speed:
> Normal approach speed on final is (according to most authorities) 1.3 x Vs. If
you were stalling at 40 IAS was your final speed about 52 IAS before and now
39 mph (1.3x30)? If so then to land three point I guess you have to speed up
1 mph to land :-).
>
> Thom in Buffalo
Thom,
I used to approach at 50. How the plane acts just over the runway at speeds below
40 is something I'll have to learn. I'm sure that the tail will touch first
(it did before). Will the mains hit hard if I get too sow. I doubt it but I don't
know yet. If my first three landing are an indication, I going to like it.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22571#22571
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
I can now shoot approaches solo in the MKIII at 45 and do pretty good.
Below that and it gets iffy.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
John Jung wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
>
> <snip>
> I used to approach at 50. How the plane acts just over the runway at speeds below
40 is something I'll have to learn. I'm sure that the tail will touch first
(it did before). Will the mains hit hard if I get too sow. I doubt it but I
don't know yet. If my first three landing are an indication, I going to like
it.
>
> --------
> John Jung
> Firestar II N6163J
> Surprise, AZ
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22571#22571
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
The State of Hawaii Legislature (in their infinte wisdom/ignorance) has passed
a law that mandates all automotive gas sold in the state after April 1st will
consist of 10% ethanol. This sounds like a nice green thing to do, but from a
technical standpoint is bogus. First thing is that it takes more energy to produce
a gallon of ethanol than the gallon of ethanol will produce. Add to that
the fact that a gallon of ethanol has only 75% of the engergy of a gallon of
gas, and also has a fuel system damaging affinity for absorbing water. The
whole thing is a feel good tax payer subsidy of the local sugar industry. End
of rant!
Now, the reason for this post is tap some of the great amount of experience on
this list. What kind of experience have you had running a gas/ethanol blend in
two stroke engines? Is the power loss noticible? Is re-jetting needed? Have
you had problems with water laden fuel gumming up the carbs?
Maybe "Sea Foam" will solve the whole problem. :P
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22593#22593
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Carlos" <grageda@innw.net>
Hi Dave,
I work in the recreational boating industry and have seen first hand what
alcohol and water can do to fuel systems.
Gasohol is not a good thing. The alcohol in gasoline can damage rubber
components in your fuel system, i.e the diaphragm in the fuel pump for one
example.
It might cost a bit more but, you may have to use 100LL av-gas to stay away
from the alcohol. This my require a re-jetting of the carb, slightly leaner
I believe.
If you must use gasohol then I suggest you check your fuel system components
very frequently to make sure the rubber parts of your plane are in good
condition. The gasohol will attack the rubber parts and cause little bits of
rubber to break off and clog your fuel system.
I imagine you have to fly over water alot because of your island location.
Avgas may be your only practical solution to keep your peace of mind over
water.
Good luck
Carlos G.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:27 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
>
> The State of Hawaii Legislature (in their infinte wisdom/ignorance) has
> passed a law that mandates all automotive gas sold in the state after
> April 1st will consist of 10% ethanol. This sounds like a nice green
> thing to do, but from a technical standpoint is bogus. First thing is
> that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the gallon
> of ethanol will produce. Add to that the fact that a gallon of ethanol
> has only 75% of the engergy of a gallon of gas, and also has a fuel system
> damaging affinity for absorbing water. The whole thing is a feel good tax
> payer subsidy of the local sugar industry. End of rant!
>
> Now, the reason for this post is tap some of the great amount of
> experience on this list. What kind of experience have you had running a
> gas/ethanol blend in two stroke engines? Is the power loss noticible? Is
> re-jetting needed? Have you had problems with water laden fuel gumming up
> the carbs?
>
> Maybe "Sea Foam" will solve the whole problem. :P
>
> --------
> Dave Bigelow
> Kamuela, Hawaii
> FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=22593#22593
>
>
>
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