---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/23/06: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:12 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru (N27SB@aol.com) 2. 06:19 AM - Mark III with a 912 for sale (David Key) 3. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru (snuffy@usol.com) 4. 09:59 AM - Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (John Jung) 5. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (pat ladd) 6. 10:37 AM - FNG seeks like minds (JAMES BEARD) 7. 11:07 AM - Re: FNG seeks like minds (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 8. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru (Charlie England) 9. 12:47 PM - Re: FNG seeks like minds (George E. Thompson) 10. 01:02 PM - Re: Jabiru (Don G) 11. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Chris Mallory) 12. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru (mike moulai) 13. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru (mike moulai) 14. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru (mike moulai) 15. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru (John Hauck) 16. 05:02 PM - Spring Maintenance/Stock Performance (John Hauck) 17. 05:08 PM - Engine questions (jadamson) 18. 08:52 PM - Re: Gas tank pick-up (DAquaNut@aol.com) 19. 09:05 PM - Re: Older Pilots (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:05 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru --> Kolb-List message posted by: N27SB@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/2006 9:03:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ceengland@bellsouth.net writes: >Forgot to comment on the above. > >Why hasn't Jabiru taken advantage of a gearbox to allow slower turning >larger diameter props? > >Must be some reason they have not come up with a good workable >solution. Seems there would be a large market for that type >equipment. > >john h >MKIII > To John/All Don't forget the issue of Prop size vs Ground clearance. Many of these tiny little speedsters could not use a larger prop even if the engine could turn them. Maybe the Jab is really good in that niche. My old Long Ez turned a 64x79 Sensch prop due to ground clearance. The 160 hp Lyc turned about 2500 on takeoff and 2950 at 10,000ft. She would climb in excess of 3,000 fpm at low altitudes and true out 205 mph at 10,000ft. I think that clean airframes can tolerate shorter props that are pitched heavy BUT, just imagine what that plane could have done with a longer prop at lower rpms. Hope to see everyone at SnF 2006 Steve B Firefly #007 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:54 AM PST US From: "David Key" Subject: Kolb-List: Mark III with a 912 for sale --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" Check Trade-a-Plane 242 total time 23k with trailer as I read the ad. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:02 AM PST US From: snuffy@usol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru --> Kolb-List message posted by: snuffy@usol.com The majority of successful applications of the Jabiru are in tractor configurations in aircraft with higher speeds than Kolbs. The slower aircraft in pusher configuration that do well with the larger props may run into cooling problems for the Jabiru even if it had a reduction unit. My penny......... Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:59 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II From: "John Jung" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" Dave Bigelow wrote: > > I'm sure you could get in trouble with a flare six feet (or more) in the air. Instead mushing into the ground in a level attitude, I think the nose would drop. My opinion is that an experienced pilot would have no trouble with the VG's, but a pilot new to Kolbs should probably get some time with the standard wing before adding VG's. Dave and I are both flying Firestar II's with similar wings, aft CG's, LandShorter VGs and only on inch difference in placement, yet we have very different descriptions of the change in flight/stall charactoristics. About the only thing we agree on is that we like the plane better than without VGs. This problem of inconsistancy of described results is one of the reasons that it took me so many years to try VGs. I will continue to test them and do my best to report the results. do not archive -------- John Jung Firestar II N6163J Surprise, AZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23734#23734 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:45 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" Firestar II's with similar wings, aft CG's,>> Hi John, if that CG is very far aft I think I would be more worried about getting that right that with adding VG`s, however desirable they they are. Cheers Pat do not archive -- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:13 AM PST US From: "JAMES BEARD" Subject: Kolb-List: FNG seeks like minds --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JAMES BEARD" New member and Mark lll Xtra builder in north central Az area (Cottonwood/Clarkdale) seeks others building same craft. Have not yet begun project, and have a question or two.....Jim Beard. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:01 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FNG seeks like minds --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" James Welcome that's why we are here. Ask away. Also you may want to clear your calendar for May 19th thru 21st for the forth annual Kolb flyin at Monument Valley. You are just too close to miss this one. With luck Craig Nelsen will be there with his fantastic MKIII Xtra. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES BEARD" Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: Kolb-List: FNG seeks like minds > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JAMES BEARD" > > New member and Mark lll Xtra builder in north central Az area > (Cottonwood/Clarkdale) seeks others building same craft. Have not yet > begun project, and have a question or two.....Jim Beard. > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:41:32 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru --> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England Hi Rick, Sorry; I didn't mean to imply that gearboxes are bad, just that superstitious pilots who've listened to too many old wives' tales (hangar flying) don't understand them & therefore, don't trust them. Most don't trust electronics on an engine, either, even though they've had to comply with several carb AD's & a couple of mag overhauls while never touching anything under the hood of their cars. The problem with the old C175 motors was that no one was willing to run them at design rpm; they tried to operate them at rpms of the direct drive engines they were accustomed to. My (attempted) point was: Jabiru knows their market & the market drove the design. I think that for anything cruising under 200mph, a fixed pitch large diameter prop & small displacement geared engine can make a lot of sense. For under 100 mph & STOL operation with very light planes, it makes just about the *only* sense. Charlie Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" > >Charlie > >Making a gear reduction drive for a aircraft engine takes some work to make >it work well but Rotax does and the performance gains (power and thrust) are >well worth it. The redrive for my VW has plenty of room for improvement but >it is still worth it. Rotax makes the 912 series for the same light aircraft >you are referring to. I would venture a guess that in a apples to apples fly >off a 80HP rotax would blow the doors off a 85HP Jabiru in most any airplane >even the fast ones. > >I'm a licensed pilot and my MKIIIc is a experimental...... Seems like there >are a few gear boxes in turbo prop airplanes...... Also there are gear boxes >in P51 Mustangs, Spitfires and allot of the big radial engines used in WWII >aircraft. These gearbox airplanes only seemed to fall out of the sky when >they got shot down. Just because Continental didn't make it work well >doesn't mean that it isn't ever going to work well and not be reliable. You >also might note that the airplanes I just referred to are a bit faster than >that 180MPH Jabiru someone was talking about. If gear box driven props >didn't work better at higher speeds the designers wouldn't have used them. > >Again I think the Jabiru is a great engine it just needs a reduction drive >to compete with the rotax 912 series of engines. > >As always my $.02 worth > >Rick Neilsen >Redrive VW powered MKIIIc > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Charlie England" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:00 PM >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru > > > > >>I've never flown one; only seen them occasionally. But I can hazard a >>guess on why they don't have a gearbox. Their chosen market seems to be >>the light end of the experimental non-ultralite market; typically faster >>planes being flown by pilots more accustomed to flying traditional a/c >>engines. Note the overall original configuration: direct drive, >>carburetors & dual mags, even though electronic injection/ignition would >>probably have been cheaper & simpler to build. >> >>Believe me, it's very difficult to find a licensed pilot (even one who >>flies experimentals) who will trust a gearbox on an aircraft engine. >>Most won't trust *any* alternative engine. Just mention the idea of >>gearing & you'll get a 3rd hand account of how those Continentals on >>Cessna 175's always failed & how much it costs to repair Twin Bonanza >>engines. >> >>FWIW... >> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:09 PM PST US From: "George E. Thompson" Cc: "Dave Pelletier" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FNG seeks like minds --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George E. Thompson" After you come back from Monument Valley fly in, come on over to the Paulden airstrip for the Black Mesa Open house on June 3rd. Our president has a two place Kolb that he has rebuilt and I have built two Firestare. Az Bald Eagle ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES BEARD" Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:36 AM Subject: Kolb-List: FNG seeks like minds > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JAMES BEARD" > > New member and Mark lll Xtra builder in north central Az area > (Cottonwood/Clarkdale) seeks others building same craft. Have not yet > begun project, and have a question or two.....Jim Beard. > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:49 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru From: "Don G" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don G" L.T. Thanks for the link. I have just spent the last half hour or better studying that Lighting site....WOW. A real good example of the sum of a process where you take any particular engine and design an aircraft for it, instead of building an airframe, and adapting engines to them. These folks obviously have a mind for their market, and are developing just what it will take to compete in that market. Unlike so many of the import LSA and EXP competitors, it is available in a Kit. I predict it will be a huge sucess. I still havent figgered out why so many other LSA entries are ignoreing the production numbers of the likes of Vans and Zenith and Sonex kits. The american market for aircraft already exists for kit built aircraft and they are all trying to convince that market (or themselves maybe) that a ready built airplane will gain market share when the buyers show a preference for building themselves. Reminds me of a boss I used to have. (I'm still here, he isn't!!) Thanks for the link...cant wait to see one a there babies in the flesh. -------- Don G FireFly#098 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23770#23770 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:22 PM PST US From: "Chris Mallory" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" All, It's no mystery to me why there are such varied results, I don't think that any two people have installed the Land Shorter VGs in the same location on their wings and none at the recommended distances. Harrison Designs (in person phone conversation) recommends that the VGs be placed at 10% of the wing chord on a Firestar II, that's 6.2 inches aft of the leading edge and spaced at 3 inches apart with the pairs centered in each valley. In comparing results from installing something as significant as VGs on an aircraft wing an inch difference may as well be a mile. You can steer the whole damned airplane just by sticking your arm out of the cockpit. It's apples and oranges guys. CM Do not archive > Dave and I are both flying Firestar II's with similar wings, aft CG's, > LandShorter VGs and only on inch difference in placement, yet we have very > different descriptions of the change in flight/stall charactoristics. > About the only thing we agree on is that we like the plane better than > without VGs. This problem of inconsistancy of described results is one of > the reasons that it took me so many years to try VGs. I will continue to > test them and do my best to report the results. > > do not archive > > -------- > John Jung > Firestar II N6163J > Surprise, AZ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23734#23734 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:10 PM PST US From: "mike moulai" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" John, I will measure that for you within the next few days. The installed weight is 64kg. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Jung" Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:16 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" > > Mike, > > Since you have experience with the Jabiru's on a Kolbs, could you answer a > question or two? > > How high above the bottom of the engine mount is the prop shaft? > > How much is the installed weight on a Kolb? > > do not archive > > -------- > John Jung > Firestar II N6163J > Surprise, AZ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23555#23555 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:24 PM PST US From: "mike moulai" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" Yep John, I am that that crap Classic pilot, I flew them both that day. I am quite new to flying only done just under 10,000 hrs in microlights, mainly as an instructor and qualified test pilot, still I have only got approx 150 hrs in a Classic and 500 or so on Jab and 582 Xtra's You keep referring to the old days of John W and Jab, those days the jab was only approx 75 real hp and if I remember right John and all the other USA Jab runners only turn a tiny 58" prop, Much more power now and I turn a 62.5" prop. My Xtra also has VG's, The Classic did not. Come see it , believe it. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 1:14 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > > serivce > maint. > > Rather have that little bit of gear box maintenance, what is it? check > every 600 or 800 hours?? than no gear box. > > gets off > for CAA. > > Musta been piss poor pilot technique on the part of the Classic > driver. My old Classic used to eat up John W's Jab powered Kolbra on > acceleration, take off distance, and climb. Course all that changed > dramatically when John W upgraded to a 912S. > > climb a bit > at full > 2950. > > Bring the Xtra on over. Would be happy to do a little one on one > competition with you. > > theJab > > I was flying my 912 back then. Mine was manufactured later part of > 1993. I started flying it April 1994. I remember a few updates > during that time frame, but don't remember a lot of problems. I know > I was doing a lot of flying back then and the old 912 was still > humming when I swapped it for the 912ULS at 1,135.0 hours. > > I remember having some mandatory updates to do on the 912ULS, and she > is still humping like a new one at 1,100.0 hours. > > Both the Jabiru and Rotax 912 series engines are great engines. I > believe there is a place for them on Kolbs, but they are not going to > perform as well as a gear box engine. > > john h > MKIII > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:58 PM PST US From: "mike moulai" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike moulai" All, You very lucky Americans have a wonderful thing called EXPERIMENTAL, the rest of the world is not quite so lucky. Without the lighter simpler Jab many microlights around the world would not exist with 4 stroke engines, others just choose not to have a 4 stroke engine cruising at 4500-5500 rpm. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" > > > Charlie > > Making a gear reduction drive for a aircraft engine takes some work to > make > it work well but Rotax does and the performance gains (power and thrust) > are > well worth it. The redrive for my VW has plenty of room for improvement > but > it is still worth it. Rotax makes the 912 series for the same light > aircraft > you are referring to. I would venture a guess that in a apples to apples > fly > off a 80HP rotax would blow the doors off a 85HP Jabiru in most any > airplane > even the fast ones. > > I'm a licensed pilot and my MKIIIc is a experimental...... Seems like > there > are a few gear boxes in turbo prop airplanes...... Also there are gear > boxes > in P51 Mustangs, Spitfires and allot of the big radial engines used in > WWII > aircraft. These gearbox airplanes only seemed to fall out of the sky when > they got shot down. Just because Continental didn't make it work well > doesn't mean that it isn't ever going to work well and not be reliable. > You > also might note that the airplanes I just referred to are a bit faster > than > that 180MPH Jabiru someone was talking about. If gear box driven props > didn't work better at higher speeds the designers wouldn't have used them. > > Again I think the Jabiru is a great engine it just needs a reduction drive > to compete with the rotax 912 series of engines. > > As always my $.02 worth > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIc > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charlie England" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:00 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru > > >> I've never flown one; only seen them occasionally. But I can hazard a >> guess on why they don't have a gearbox. Their chosen market seems to be >> the light end of the experimental non-ultralite market; typically faster >> planes being flown by pilots more accustomed to flying traditional a/c >> engines. Note the overall original configuration: direct drive, >> carburetors & dual mags, even though electronic injection/ignition would >> probably have been cheaper & simpler to build. >> >> Believe me, it's very difficult to find a licensed pilot (even one who >> flies experimentals) who will trust a gearbox on an aircraft engine. >> Most won't trust *any* alternative engine. Just mention the idea of >> gearing & you'll get a 3rd hand account of how those Continentals on >> Cessna 175's always failed & how much it costs to repair Twin Bonanza >> engines. >> >> FWIW... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:48 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Jabiru --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" My Xtra also has VG's, The Classic did not. Come see it , | believe it. | | Mike Man...........I would love to if I could find the time and money. Even if I got beat. Thanks for the invite. ;-) john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:40 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Spring Maintenance/Stock Performance --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Hi Gang: Got back into the air today a couple times. First flights since the first of January. Long dry spell. Tried to do a better fit on the STE exhaust system yesterday. Today I got a test flight in for that. Then I got the old steam gauge tachometer calibrated. This is a complicated job because the instrument panel has to be dropped to get a jeweler's screw driven in that tiny hole in the back to turn the pot and reset the needle. I think the last time I did that was two years ago. Another hour to change oil and filter, plus take the oil tank apart and wash thoroughly with gasoline. Still had enough time for another test flight. With all this talk of VG's, I decided while I was up boring holes in the sky to see what my old MKIII was doing in the way for flight performance. This test was conducted with 15 gal (90 lbs of fuel), a fat MKIII, me, and on a beautiful cool calm afternoon. At 3,000 feet MSL, power at idle, she started mushing at 40 mph indicated. No break. At 3,000 feet MSL, power at idle, full flaps (40 deg), she started mushing at 32 to 33 mph indicated. Landing on grass, full flaps, she stalled onto the ground as the needle was coming through 30 mph indicated. Making a full stall 3 pt landing in ground effect my MKIII has a nice sharp break with full flaps. However, at 3000 feet, at idle power I can put her in a 40 to 50 mph mush at 2000 fpm rate of decent with no tendancy to lose roll or pitch control. Think it and it is flying again. It climbs full power as slow as 22 mph indicated. Course it is porpoising because of the high thrust line, but still climbing 1500 fpm. The airspeed fluctuates from 22 to 35 mph. Now.........what is amazing about this is it is a standard MKIII with no VG's. The above performance figures are the primary reason I have not stuck them on my MKIII. As far as slow flight, never flew any model Kolb that did not fly well in slow flight, even the FF and the SS. Homer designed his airplanes primarily to be slow fliers. They do that well. Far better than being fast airplanes. Mine is comfortable at 85 mph cruise no matter what engine I have had on it from the 582, to the 912UL to the 912ULS. I have nothing against VG's. If they help you and your Kolb. Great! Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:13 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Engine questions From: "jadamson" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jadamson" Can anyone point me to a reference that can spell out what the recommended engine weight-horsepower ranges are for the different Kolb models? The TNK site wasn't much help - or maybe I just didn't see it. Seems like all I could find were performance specs - but the engines used to get those specs wasn't mentioned. Frustrating. Thanks in advance and if I just missed it somewhere, my apologies. Seems like a nifty little airplane. John TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23833#23833 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:55 PM PST US From: DAquaNut@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Gas tank pick-up --> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com Group, Can anyone tell me from experience which will provide the most useable fuel from the tank of a firefly. The pick up tube in the front, OR in the back of the tank? Seems the front position would be best, but It seems inertia would push the gas to the back. But, then again if you were getting low and started down it would seem the gas would gravitate forward. Which is better forward in the tank or the back? Ed ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:23 PM PST US From: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Older Pilots --> Kolb-List message posted by: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com In a message dated 3/19/2006 10:44:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ulflyer@verizon.net writes: Attend any meeting of an EAA Chapter that has been around for a while, you'll see a lot of gray and white hair. Be dammed lucky to see ANY HAIR at my EAA chapter. Bill Varnes Original Kolb FireStar Audubon NJ Do Not Archive