---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/26/06: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:23 AM - Re: 2 stroke adventure (Ed Chmielewski) 2. 05:33 AM - Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (John Jung) 3. 06:08 AM - Re: 2 stroke adventure (Dave G.) 4. 06:14 AM - Firestar II for sale Canada (KD Industries Inc.) 5. 06:55 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Chris Mallory) 6. 07:39 AM - Re: 2 stroke adventure (Steve Garvelink) 7. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: 2 stroke adventure (pat ladd) 8. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Steven Green) 9. 11:23 AM - older pilots (Jbowaaf@wmconnect.com) 10. 04:34 PM - Rear Enclosure Mark III C (Kolbdriver) 11. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: 2 stroke adventure (robert bean) 12. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Eugene Zimmerman) 13. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Older Pilots (jerb) 14. 08:44 PM - Re: Re: Older Pilots (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:21 AM PST US From: "Ed Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke adventure --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" Thanks, John! ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 7:22 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke adventure > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > how big a > > Ed: > > It is a 13.4mb Quicktime. > > Shows an UL flight that terminated with an engine out. Good > educational clip. > > john h ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:01 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II From: "John Jung" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" Group, I did a dozen landings today to learn more about how my Firestar II handles different than before the VGs. Conditions were as thermally and gusty as I have experienced in Arizona. Wind was about 15 mph, mostly down the 1000 ft dirt runway, with a small crosswind component. My first landing was at 4350 rpm, nose high, tail dragging at 30 mph. The plane dropped from there, hit harder than I like but no bent gear. After that, I kept the rpms at 3,600 down to full idle. Average touch down speed was 34 mph, almost always 33 to 35 mph, all tail first, soft landings. Even though conditions were bad, it was easy to land the plane without hitting hard. In the past, I had to get the mains close to the runway before I slowed to 40, because at 40 mph it just dropped. On the way back to the airport, I tried to duplicate the nose drop stall that Dave reported. I pulled the stick back further so the plane would slow quicker. This time it stalled at 28 and the nose did drop below level, like Dave described. I can't really compare that with before the VGs, because I never pulled my Firestar into a stall that quickly before. And I don't see it happening by accident. In summary, I much prefer my Firestar with the Landshorter VGs. I have flown Firestars for the past 9 years, and I have some time in a Mark II and a Mark III. These Landshorter VGs make my plane easier to land then any non-VG Kolb I have flown. Granted, if I had flaps, I might never had tried them. -------- John Jung Firestar II N6163J Surprise, AZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24339#24339 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:00 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke adventure --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave G." Engine appears to labelled "Arctic Cat" does anyone know the source of the problem? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:02 AM PST US From: "KD Industries Inc." Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar II for sale Canada --> Kolb-List message posted by: "KD Industries Inc." Kolb Firestar II for sale. 503 DCDI, 103 hrs. TT , 3 blade ivoprop, stitts aerothane covered,folding wings,custom made cover,EIS, radio,Gps, set up as single seat,allways been stored in a hanger. Located in Ontario. 12000.00 CAD. Dave kd@ican.net ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:38 AM PST US From: "Chris Mallory" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" John, Joa (from Land Shorter) tells me that if you install the VGs on the underside of the Horizontal Stabilizer, just ahead of the hinge line at 1.5 inch spacing that the tail will not drag low as you have described, rather it will stay in normal attitude and do a soft "mush" right at touch down. He said that the reason for this is that because of the VGs, the Wing wants to keep flying but the tail wants to stall first, adding the VGs aft will balance the two flying surfaces and eliminate this tendency. I installed the VGs on my wing as per Joa's instructions and will add them to the HZ stab. as per his instructions as well. Joa has the experience of ALL those that have installed Land Shorter Vgs on their aircraft regardless of type. The only thing better than a good set of instructions is a conversation with the guy that wrote them. CM Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Jung" Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:31 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" > > Group, > > I did a dozen landings today to learn more about how my Firestar II > handles different than before the VGs. Conditions were as thermally and > gusty as I have experienced in Arizona. Wind was about 15 mph, mostly down > the 1000 ft dirt runway, with a small crosswind component. My first > landing was at 4350 rpm, nose high, tail dragging at 30 mph. The plane > dropped from there, hit harder than I like but no bent gear. After that, I > kept the rpms at 3,600 down to full idle. Average touch down speed was 34 > mph, almost always 33 to 35 mph, all tail first, soft landings. Even > though conditions were bad, it was easy to land the plane without hitting > hard. In the past, I had to get the mains close to the runway before I > slowed to 40, because at 40 mph it just dropped. > > On the way back to the airport, I tried to duplicate the nose drop stall > that Dave reported. I pulled the stick back further so the plane would > slow quicker. This time it stalled at 28 and the nose did drop below > level, like Dave described. I can't really compare that with before the > VGs, because I never pulled my Firestar into a stall that quickly before. > And I don't see it happening by accident. > > In summary, I much prefer my Firestar with the Landshorter VGs. I have > flown Firestars for the past 9 years, and I have some time in a Mark II > and a Mark III. These Landshorter VGs make my plane easier to land then > any non-VG Kolb I have flown. Granted, if I had flaps, I might never had > tried them. > > -------- > John Jung > Firestar II N6163J > Surprise, AZ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24339#24339 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:03 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 2 stroke adventure From: "Steve Garvelink" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink" Excellent video! This guy either has the right stuff or is extreamly lucky. I think a lot of both and nerves of steel. My impression is that he was flying to low for the area that he was flying over. I started to feel uncomfortable when I could see no good options to land. I would like to see a full screen version of this video. It is an excellent training video. Steve Garvelink Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24361#24361 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:29 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 2 stroke adventure --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" Hi all, I don`t think I would be hanging around quite that low over all those trees. Having said that, what a good job the guy made of the situation. Mainly because he continued to fly the plane. He picked the spot he wanted and flew the plane as well as he could to make it happen. In fact I thought he was going to make it onto that rough track. He still looked as though he might have enough height to make it when he suddenly hit the ground. Did anyone else get that impression? Did he stall, or touch a wing tip? Congratulations to him in any case. Cheers Pat do not archive -- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:32 AM PST US From: "Steven Green" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steven Green" If the horizonal stabilizer stalls the tail would go up, not down, unless you are flying a canard wing with the stab. up front. Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Mallory" Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 9:54 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" > > John, > > Joa (from Land Shorter) tells me that if you install the VGs on the > underside of the Horizontal Stabilizer, just ahead of the hinge line at 1.5 > inch spacing that the tail will not drag low as you have described, rather > it will stay in normal attitude and do a soft "mush" right at touch down. He > said that the reason for this is that because of the VGs, the Wing wants to > keep flying but the tail wants to stall first, adding the VGs aft will > balance the two flying surfaces and eliminate this tendency. > > I installed the VGs on my wing as per Joa's instructions and will add them > to the HZ stab. as per his instructions as well. > > Joa has the experience of ALL those that have installed Land Shorter Vgs on > their aircraft regardless of type. > > The only thing better than a good set of instructions is a conversation with > the guy that wrote them. > > CM > > Do not archive > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Jung" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:31 AM > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" > > > > Group, > > > > I did a dozen landings today to learn more about how my Firestar II > > handles different than before the VGs. Conditions were as thermally and > > gusty as I have experienced in Arizona. Wind was about 15 mph, mostly down > > the 1000 ft dirt runway, with a small crosswind component. My first > > landing was at 4350 rpm, nose high, tail dragging at 30 mph. The plane > > dropped from there, hit harder than I like but no bent gear. After that, I > > kept the rpms at 3,600 down to full idle. Average touch down speed was 34 > > mph, almost always 33 to 35 mph, all tail first, soft landings. Even > > though conditions were bad, it was easy to land the plane without hitting > > hard. In the past, I had to get the mains close to the runway before I > > slowed to 40, because at 40 mph it just dropped. > > > > On the way back to the airport, I tried to duplicate the nose drop stall > > that Dave reported. I pulled the stick back further so the plane would > > slow quicker. This time it stalled at 28 and the nose did drop below > > level, like Dave described. I can't really compare that with before the > > VGs, because I never pulled my Firestar into a stall that quickly before. > > And I don't see it happening by accident. > > > > In summary, I much prefer my Firestar with the Landshorter VGs. I have > > flown Firestars for the past 9 years, and I have some time in a Mark II > > and a Mark III. These Landshorter VGs make my plane easier to land then > > any non-VG Kolb I have flown. Granted, if I had flaps, I might never had > > tried them. > > > > -------- > > John Jung > > Firestar II N6163J > > Surprise, AZ > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24339#24339 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:23:20 AM PST US From: Jbowaaf@wmconnect.com Subject: Kolb-List: older pilots --> Kolb-List message posted by: Jbowaaf@wmconnect.com also perhaps relevant to this thread, would be the aviation life story of mr. clint mchenry. those who favor younger pilots might find his history of interest. john bowman, bldg avid+ flyer from airdale prairieville la (near baton rouge) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:05 PM PST US From: "Kolbdriver" Subject: Kolb-List: Rear Enclosure Mark III C --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kolbdriver" Folks, Does anyone have photos of how they installed the Rear Enclosure of their Mark III C?? I'm speaking of the clear vinyl, not the older style lexan enclosure? Thanks, Mike Mark III C North Central Oklahoma ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:44 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 2 stroke adventure --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean Pat, looks like he caught a left wing tip on something. -which might be a preferable way to bleed off some speed rather than whack one of those dirt piles dead on. Any way to sequentially lose inertia is the best way to go. -BB do not archive On 26, Mar 2006, at 11:29 AM, pat ladd wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" > > Hi all, > > I don`t think I would be hanging around quite that low over all those > trees. > Having said that, what a good job the guy made of the situation. Mainly > because he continued to fly the plane. He picked the spot he wanted and > flew the plane as well as he could to make it happen. In fact I > thought he > was going to make it onto that rough track. He still looked as though > he > might have enough height to make it when he suddenly hit the ground. > Did > anyone else get that impression? Did he stall, or touch a wing tip? > Congratulations to him in any case. > > Cheers > > Pat > > do not archive > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:55 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman On Mar 26, 2006, at 9:54 AM, Chris Mallory wrote: > He > said that the reason for this is that because of the VGs, the Wing > wants to > keep flying but the tail wants to stall first, adding the VGs aft will > balance the two flying surfaces and eliminate this tendency. Sorry, Sounds like sales propaganda to me. Any airplane that stalls tail first would be an extremely dangerous plane to try to fly. I can assure you that my VGs do not make my plane stall tail first. Any increased authority that results form VGs placed on the horizontal tail surfaces will make the potential to land tail first even greater not less, because VGs act to increase angel of attack before stall. Increased angel of attack means the tail is even lower. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:44 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Older Pilots --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb Perhaps "we" should contact the author of the article to determine what data he based his comment upon. A few dozen request might get his attention. jerb At 12:06 PM 3/24/2006, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Adamson > >To add to Ray's observation: If it's true that older pilots have more >financial resources (which I suspect it is), then they probably have >more expensive (read higher performance) airplanes to fly. "Higher >performance" would _seem_ to go along with "higher accident rates". So >now we can look not just at accidents per hours flown but at hours flown >in type. > >The key premise of the article, though, was that older pilots are >crashing in _disproportionate_ numbers. I don't believe it's >disproportionate at all. Older pilots are the biggest percentage of the >pilot population. If they crash in exactly the numbers proportional to >their percentage of the pilot population, they'd have the most >accidents. If they crash in _fewer_ numbers than is represented by >their percentage of the pilot population, maybe that's a function of >their experience and judgement. > >In any case, these are some ways of looking at the problem - looking at >some data - rather than making blanket generalizations like Mr. Jet >Pilot seems to prefer. Or am I being too "violent" here? :-) > >As for Mr. Jet Pilot's concern with "recognizing a problem and comming >(sic) up with ways to minimize the effects", I believe that's being done >all the time. That's why they let old guys fly fighters today whereas, >50 years ago, a 35-year-old was considered a little long in the tooth. >A 60-year-old today (or a 40- or a 50-, for that matter) isn't the same >"old guy" as was the case in, say, 1950. Which is also, by the way, why >the Age 60 Rule has outlived its usefulness and is constantly being >challenged: It ain't based on current research! > >John Adamson >do not archive > >ray anderson wrote: > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson > > > >Unfortunately the articles don't take into account the number of > hours each group flies annually. Older pilots usually are > financially able to fly many more hours yearly because of more time > and money. Younger ones can't spend as much time or money as the > older. So any meaningful comparison should be based on accidents > per hours flown. I'd bet it would be about equal. > > Ray > > UltraStar > > do not archive > > > >JetPilot wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" > > > > > >biglar wrote: > > > > > >>There's an article on page A15 in todays Desert Sun about "Older > Pilots are Crashing in Disproportionate Numbers." It's an AP feed > by Ryan Pearson, and, in my opinion, is badly biased and very > slanted. Makes me want badly to bloody his nose. Take a look in > your own local newspapers, or look at www.thedesertsun.com and > scroll way down to the "California" section, the 2nd bullet. > >> > >>Larry Bourne > >>Palm Springs, CA > >>Building Kolb Mk III > >>N78LB Vamoose > >>www.gogittum.com > >> > >> > > > > > >It is a well known fact that pilots slow down and make more > mistakes as we get older. As people get older their minds slow down > and they are not as quick to react and cannot process information > as quickly as when they were young, which is critical to flying. > This is somewhat offset by experience, but not enough to balance > the equation. It is no suprise that older pilots have a higher > accident rate. That is why airline pilots have a mandatory > retirement age of 60. > > > >The only dissapointing thing here is that we have someone > responding with denial and violence instead of recognizing a > problem and comming up with ways to minimize the effects of this. > > > >Michael A. Bigelow > > > >-------- > >NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! > > > > > > > > > >Read this topic online here: > > > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23933#23933 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:08 PM PST US From: "Larry Cottrell" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Older Pilots --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerb" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Older Pilots > > Perhaps "we" should contact the author of the article to determine > what data he based his comment upon. A few dozen request might get > his attention. > jerb No, lets find him, I'll hold him and Big Lar can hit him in the nose. Larry, Oregon