Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:28 AM - Re: Re: Older Pilots (robert bean)
2. 04:31 AM - 4 stroke for Kolb Flyer, Lazair, Woodhopper etc (Scott Perkins)
3. 04:41 AM - Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Thom Riddle)
4. 05:37 AM - Re: Re: Older Pilots (Jeremy Casey)
5. 06:14 AM - Re: Re: Older Pilots (John Hauck)
6. 06:17 AM - Re: Re: Older Pilots (Larry Bourne)
7. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (pat ladd)
8. 06:41 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (John Hauck)
9. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (David Lehman)
10. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (HShack@aol.com)
11. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Ed Chmielewski)
12. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (possums)
13. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Ed Chmielewski)
14. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Eugene Zimmerman)
15. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Jeremy Casey)
16. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (robert bean)
17. 08:46 AM - Learning to fly the Firestar (USArmy)
18. 09:01 AM - Builder's List (Dave & Eve Pelletier)
19. 09:20 AM - a stall between 2 fools (Vince Hallam)
20. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (pat ladd)
21. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II aka tail stalling (Robert Noyer)
22. 10:09 AM - Re: Builder's List (Gherkins Tim-rp3420)
23. 10:16 AM - Re: Builder's List (Michael Sharp)
24. 12:18 PM - Re: Learning to fly the Firestar (George E. Thompson)
25. 12:42 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (pat ladd)
26. 12:46 PM - Pat please (pat ladd)
27. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (pat ladd)
28. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (pat ladd)
29. 01:21 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (pat ladd)
30. 01:41 PM - Learning to fly the Firestar (Lanny Fetterman)
31. 02:31 PM - Re: Learning to fly the Firestar (John Jung)
32. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: Learning to fly the Firestar (Aaron Gustafson)
33. 04:09 PM - Re: Learning to fly the Firestar (Chris Mallory)
34. 04:35 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Robert Noyer)
35. 04:38 PM - Re: Learning to fly the Firestar (John Jung)
36. 04:54 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Steven Green)
37. 05:04 PM - Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking (Bill Vincent)
38. 05:12 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Kirk Smith)
39. 05:21 PM - Re: Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking (Robert Noyer)
40. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
41. 05:40 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (John Hauck)
42. 06:05 PM - Airfoils (John Hauck)
43. 06:36 PM - Re: Airfoils aka box kites (Robert Noyer)
44. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Beauford)
45. 06:44 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (John Hauck)
46. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Beauford)
47. 10:24 PM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa (Land Shorter)
48. 11:05 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Ed Chmielewski)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Older Pilots |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
We'll all beat him with our canes!
-BB do not archive
On 26, Mar 2006, at 11:43 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerb" <ulflyer@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Older Pilots
>
>
>>
>> Perhaps "we" should contact the author of the article to determine
>> what data he based his comment upon. A few dozen request might get
>> his attention.
>> jerb
>
>
> No, lets find him, I'll hold him and Big Lar can hit him in the nose.
> Larry, Oregon
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | 4 stroke for Kolb Flyer, Lazair, Woodhopper etc |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Scott Perkins <2scott@bellsouth.net>
This past weekend
I visited the national powered paragliding championship in FL
and saw the neatest little 150cc 4 stroke with electric start being
used on the paragliders with a claimed 14 hp at 7700 rpms.
It was guieter and won the endurance competition ( by 40 minutes) where
they see who can stay airborne the longest with just 2 liters of fuel.
The whole time I was thinking of how cool it would be to have
two of these on a Kolb Flyer or Lazair or Hummingbird or for that matter
just one on a Delta Nomad or the
BabyBeta-Bird.http://vulatalk.zdwebhosting.com/pictures3/babebeta/index.html
or the
Woodhopper
http://vulatalk.zdwebhosting.com/pictures3/woodhopper/index.html
and probably the Gypsy as well !
Oh the Zipper would have been a great one for two also...
http://vulatalk.zdwebhosting.com/pictures3/zipper/index.html
I wouldnt have to think too hard to come up with a dozen more....
I miss Del Cross as now I dont know of another Kolb Flyer now flying anywhere.
The new little 4 stroke is from the U.K. co. called Bailey Aviation etc.
http://wwww.baileyaviation.com
The sales rep suggested the barrel and some internal parts were from a
4 stroke motorcycle application.
the entire engine supposedly weighs 45 lb with electric start and a slightly
larger engine is currently undergoing tests.
Scott
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
This JOA guy has lost all credibility with me due to his statement about the tail
stalling first causing the tail to be low. The VGs work as described but this
guy's knowlege of the purpose of the horizontal stabilizer and elevator is
limited at best. I'm sure he has a good product, at least as good as the home
made ones, but he is no expert in flight theory or aerodynamics. I'm not either
but do know and understand what the experts say.
On ALL succecssful standard configuration aircraft, the tail is designed to continue
to fly at speeds below which the wing will be fully stalled, assuming the
CG is within limits. Without effective elevator control the pilot cannot get
the nose-up pitch and resultant high AOA for the wing to stall. How does he think
the pilot gets this high AOA if the tail has stalled?
If the VGs on the BOTTOM of the stabilizer increase downward lift, then the improved
downward lift would lower the tail, not raise it. Is this guy even a pilot????
Ignorance is not a sin, but ignorance masquerading as expertise is dangerous.
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24517#24517
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Older Pilots |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
She had around 58,000 hours when she
| quit instructing. Evelyn Johnson is her name.
|
| Steven Green
I'll place Miss Evelyn right up there along side my friend Ed Long.
Ed died in his early 80's. However, when Ed died, he has more flying
hours than any other person on earth, 63,000 I believe. Will have to
go look it up. NOTE: Can not find any info on Ed Long and his
record. Far as I know, he still holds that record for most flight
time.
Had the honor of flying in my MKIII with Ed Long. He liked the way it
flew, but did not like the seat. Well, since that flight, I fixed the
left seat to be a tad more comfortable.
john h
PS: While I was searching for Ed Long's record, I did find that an 82
year old man in Ireland solo'd a Robinson helicopter. Now that is
indicative of how old farts fall apart. I sure this elderly gentleman
is an exception.
<snip>
I'll bet you know this, but if you go into the FBO at MGM in Montgomery
you'll see a glass case that has all of Mr. Longs log books laid out
including the last one with the totals. They sort of set up a memorial
to the fellow. For those that don't know this fellow flew for the
regional power company (Alabama Power) and just got up every morning to
go fly the major powerlines to look for problems (trees, etc.) and also
everytime weather blew through the area, he'd be out buzzing through at
low level looking for what was keeping the lights out...
Jeremy Casey
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Older Pilots |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Montgomery
| you'll see a glass case that has all of Mr. Longs log books laid out
| including the last one with the totals.
|
| Jeremy Casey
Thanks for the info, Jeremy. I did not know about Ed's memorial. I
will make a special trip out there to look at them.
You are correct. Ed flew power line patrol primarily. Most of his
time was low level on the wires.
A couple years before Ed died, he was presented an award from EAA at
the flyin at Oshkosh. He never looked for attention about the fact
that he had more flight time than any other man. He simply loved to
fly.
About the time I was building my MKIII, 1991, I got a call from an
individual interested in a Kolb. We talked a long time. His name was
Ed Long. He didn't even tell me he was a pilot.
Take care,
john h
MKIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Older Pilots |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
You gotta promise not to let go. He might hit back. Shaky ol'
Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Older Pilots
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerb" <ulflyer@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Older Pilots
>
>
>>
>> Perhaps "we" should contact the author of the article to determine
>> what data he based his comment upon. A few dozen request might get
>> his attention.
>> jerb
>
>
> No, lets find him, I'll hold him and Big Lar can hit him in the nose.
> Larry, Oregon
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
If the horizonal stabilizer stalls the tail would go up, not down,...>>
Huh?. VG`s help a flying surface to continue to produce lift past he point
when it would usually stall. In my experience something that suddenly stops
producung lift falls down, not up.
Just as a matter of interest, how much lift does the tail plane produce
anyway. It is not a lifting surface as it is totally flat. I suppose VG`s
on the TOP surface just might hold the boundary layer for just a little
longer which would give more control at slow speeds but I cannot see that
VG`s UNDER the hor. stab do anything at all.
I would like to see some wind tunnel smoke tests.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| In my experience something that suddenly stops
| producung lift falls down, not up.
|
Depends on which direction it is lifting.
Doesn't have anything to do with which side of the road one drives on.
;-)
john h
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
Pat...
The way it was told to me is that the "understab" VGs make the elevators
more effective... They're not "lift producers (positive or negative), but
just swirl the air under the elevator... And yep, I have "understab" VGs on
that thing in the garage with 5-rib wings, adjustable elevator trim tab and
a 503 belt drive, the "Hemlock Special"...
Regards...
DVD
On 3/27/06, pat ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> If the horizonal stabilizer stalls the tail would go up, not down,...>>
>
> Huh?. VG`s help a flying surface to continue to produce lift past he
> point
> when it would usually stall. In my experience something that suddenly
> stops
> producung lift falls down, not up.
>
> Just as a matter of interest, how much lift does the tail plane produce
> anyway. It is not a lifting surface as it is totally flat. I suppose
> VG`s
> on the TOP surface just might hold the boundary layer for just a little
> longer which would give more control at slow speeds but I cannot see that
> VG`s UNDER the hor. stab do anything at all.
>
> I would like to see some wind tunnel smoke tests.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --
>
>
--
=F4=BF=F4 "I started with nothing... And I still have most of it left!"...
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 3/27/2006 9:32:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pj.ladd@btinternet.com writes:
If the horizonal stabilizer stalls the tail would go up, not down,...>>
Huh?. VG`s help a flying surface to continue to produce lift past he point
when it would usually stall. In my experience something that suddenly stops
producung lift falls down, not up.
Mr. Ladd is correct; our tail feathers hold the tail DOWN in flight since,
on our wing, the center of lift is BEHIND the center of gravity.
I have VG's on the bottom of my horizontal stab; I suspect all they do is
give my Up elevator a little more authority, ie. POWER ELEVATOR.
I think I'm gonna' put 'em on my rudder, to.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Hi Thom,
You hit the nail on the head. The tail should have authority after
the wing stalls, and CG then takes over to lower the nose.
Had a stalled tail due to ice once (tail boots quit working on a
C421 in light ice), never want to experience that again. Aircraft wouldn't
stop porpoising, all the way to touchdown.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 7:40 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
> This JOA guy has lost all credibility with me due to his statement about
> the tail stalling first causing the tail to be low. The VGs work as
> described but this guy's knowlege of the purpose of the horizontal
> stabilizer and elevator is limited at best. I'm sure he has a good
> product, at least as good as the home made ones, but he is no expert in
> flight theory or aerodynamics. I'm not either but do know and understand
> what the experts say.
>
> On ALL succecssful standard configuration aircraft, the tail is designed
> to continue to fly at speeds below which the wing will be fully stalled,
> assuming the CG is within limits. Without effective elevator control the
> pilot cannot get the nose-up pitch and resultant high AOA for the wing to
> stall. How does he think the pilot gets this high AOA if the tail has
> stalled?
>
> If the VGs on the BOTTOM of the stabilizer increase downward lift, then
> the improved downward lift would lower the tail, not raise it. Is this guy
> even a pilot????
>
> Ignorance is not a sin, but ignorance masquerading as expertise is
> dangerous.
>
> Thom in Buffalo
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24517#24517
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 07:40 AM 3/27/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
>This JOA guy has lost all credibility with me due to his statement
>about the tail stalling first causing the tail to be low.
I don't know about that - if you do a Google Search on
"horizontal stabilizer" & "vortex generators" you will find out
that everybody recommends putting them on the "bottom" of
the Horizontal stabilizer, not just this JOA guy. Even in the
GA planes.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Right. The (conventional) tail is an upside-down wing, no? Thus, its lift
vector is downward, and if critical AOA is exceeded, it goes - up - ! (In
level flight). The problem I had, with ice on the tail, is once the
airplane shudders and the nose drops, the natural pilot response is to lower
the nose. This is exactly the wrong thing to do with a tail stall, and
slight aft stick is needed. NASA has a good series of videos on tailplane
icing. They even manage to snap-roll a Twin Otter.
Ed in JXN
Do not archive.
>> If the horizonal stabilizer stalls the tail would go up, not down,...>>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
On Mar 27, 2006, at 9:56 AM, HShack@aol.com wrote:
> I think I'm gonna' put 'em on my rudder, to.
Howard,
I think that could make a lot of sense.
All single seat Kolbs I ever flew had more than enough up elevator
control authority to stall the wing even with VGs. Any more up
control is totally useless, however there are times when it would be
good to have more rudder authority for cross wind landings.
The Kolb planes that would benefit most by having VGs on the
horizontal tail surfaces would be the early twinstar and Mark II
flying two up because of their smaller tail surfaces. The Mark III
was given larger tail surfaces and some feel that even they, in
certain situations, are marginal and could possibly receive some
benefit from additional up control by adding VGs to the bottom of
horizontal tail surface.
Gene
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
In normal configuration aircraft (i.e. non-canard or tandem wing
(Quickie)) the tail produces DOWN force...the center of lift is behind
the aircraft CG. The center of lift, being the fulcrum, being behind
the CG (i.e. the load being lifted) has to have a balancing load DOWN on
the tail to keep everything level. I hope there was just some
misunderstanding of these posts cause this should have been basic
groundschool to get any form of a pilots license.
Elevator "stall" and elevator "effectiveness" are possibly being
interchanged inappropriately here but the net result is the same...the
tail can't pull the nose up...
In regards to tail stalling...yes it can and does happen. I have seen
videos of the testing of an ATR passenger aircraft that was setup to
create icing on the tail...the look on the test pilots face was sheer
panic as the nose dropped and he was fully expecting it to happen.
Other forms of tailplane stall is common on tandem aircraft like the
RANS S7 I used to fly. Flying solo (front seat) and light fuel meant CG
was right at the forward limit...this meant that getting a 3 point
landing (i.e. full stall) was dang near impossible. This doesn't make
sense right? I mean heavy (2 up, heavy fuel) stalls faster right? Of
course it does, but heavy also moved the CG back which required less
downforce from the tail to balance everything. Flown heavy the plane
landed itself...flown solo and light meant you better wheel land it. As
you would go to flare the higher downforce requirements of the forward
CG and the slower speed (less ability of the tail to generate DOWNforce
or DOWNWARD LIFT...meant the tail wasn't capable of bringing the nose
up. The extreme limits of up elevator can cause the bottom surface of
the elevator you basically stall do to the air not being able to make
the bend around the fairly level horizontal stab and then around the
upward deflected elevator...VG's on the underside of the horizontal stab
can sometimes help this. (in defense of RANS around '96 or so they
enlarged the tail a bit and made the tail considerably more
powerful...was easy to get a full stall landing in any configuration...)
Remember the Ercoupe? It's main claim to fame of being unable to be
spun was just a function of limiting the elevator travel to the point
that it could not generate enough downforce to raise the nose high
enough to exceed the wings critical angle of attack...i.e. you couldn't
stall it...if you can't stall it you can't spin it.
Personally I think spins are fun...at least with some altitude they
are... ;-)
Jeremy Casey
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Although Thom already said it once, let's repeat:
on a conventional airplane (non canard) the tail is always pushing
DOWN in flight. When trimming for slow flight and landing configuration
you pull back on the stick to compensate for the lack of down force
via less airflow over the tail. Some planes have a real inverted
airfoil to help out. The Zenith aircraft CH-701 for example:
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-design-tail.html
So then the tail doesn't actually fly, you could move a lead weight in
and
out on a track to accomplish the same thing.
There have been a few tailless designs.
Might not work too well at stall though, in which case the horizontal
stab acts more like the feather on an arrow or a lawn dart to help the
rear end stay up a little during the time you start falling nose down.
-BB
do not archive
On 27, Mar 2006, at 10:31 AM, possums wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
>
> At 07:40 AM 3/27/2006, you wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>
>> This JOA guy has lost all credibility with me due to his statement
>> about the tail stalling first causing the tail to be low.
>
>
> I don't know about that - if you do a Google Search on
> "horizontal stabilizer" & "vortex generators" you will find out
> that everybody recommends putting them on the "bottom" of
> the Horizontal stabilizer, not just this JOA guy. Even in the
> GA planes.
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Learning to fly the Firestar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "USArmy" <douglasarmy@lycos.com>
I just got a used Firestar II. I have flown for years in the military and have
flown ultralights in the past but I have never flown a Kolb before. Can anyone
give me any suggestions on how I should go about learning to fly this type
of plane ?
Douglas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24577#24577
Message 18
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" <pelletier@cableone.net>
Guys,
I'm still trying to contact Uncle Craig. Does anyone know what is going on
with the SpringerAviation.net builder's list? When I click on it I get the home
page but when I click on the builder's link I get a blank screen.
AzDave
Do Not Archive
Message 19
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Cc: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: | a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vince Hallam" <vince@devonwindmills.co.uk>
Dear Pat,
Do I read you right, you are flying tandem monoplanes ,flying fleas.
and canards.? Unfortunately all my life Ive flown proper aeroplanes either with
a tail or no tail atall, The only feature that stops them diveing to the ground
is either a CofG beyond aft limits ,or the down force aerodynamically generated
at the back of the whole caboodle.The tail is behaving like an upside
down wing, that is why it is symetric,or flat on top,If it stops sucking down
the tail goes up, and the nose goes down, It can stall ,but does so in the upside
down sense.Or are you pulling my willy??
Vnz Wilyflier
Vince Hallam
please phone rather than email for best results!
07941 313141
01803 316191
www.devonwindmills.co.uk
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
I think I'm gonna' put 'em on my rudder, too.>>
How about the wheel struts?
Pat :-)
do not archive
--
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II aka tail stalling |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
The early Cardinals with 150 hp and the so-called "all moving/flying
tail/hor stab" would get the tail stalled on landing. I almost bought
a '68 for leaseback, but after a few landings I cancelled. Just about
the time the wing was gettiing close to stalling, you could churn the
yoke around like mashing potatoes..,.not good. Cessna came out with
an AD that put slots in the hor stab leading edge. My '73 was great.
regards,
Bob N.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
Message 22
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Gherkins Tim-rp3420" <rp3420@freescale.com>
Dave,
Uncle Craig can be contacted by going to our website www.milows.com.
Leave him an email.
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave & Eve
Pelletier
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 9:59 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Builder's List
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier"
--> <pelletier@cableone.net>
Guys,
I'm still trying to contact Uncle Craig. Does anyone know what is
going on with the SpringerAviation.net builder's list? When I click on
it I get the home page but when I click on the builder's link I get a
blank screen.
AzDave
Do Not Archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Builder's List |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Michael Sharp <kolbdriver@mlsharp.com>
I think Springer's database has been down for a few months if memory serves he
was having problems with his server or HTML or both..
Mike
Dave & Eve Pelletier <pelletier@cableone.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier"
Guys,
I'm still trying to contact Uncle Craig. Does anyone know what is going on with
the SpringerAviation.net builder's list? When I click on it I get the home page
but when I click on the builder's link I get a blank screen.
AzDave
Do Not Archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to fly the Firestar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George E. Thompson" <eagle1@commspeed.net>
Be sure and get some duel instruction in ultralights.
Az. Bald Eagle
----- Original Message -----
From: "USArmy" <douglasarmy@lycos.com>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Learning to fly the Firestar
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "USArmy" <douglasarmy@lycos.com>
>
> I just got a used Firestar II. I have flown for years in the military and
> have flown ultralights in the past but I have never flown a Kolb before.
> Can anyone give me any suggestions on how I should go about learning to
> fly this type of plane ?
>
> Douglas
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24577#24577
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
.The tail is behaving like an upside down wing, that is why it is
symetric,or flat on top,>>
Hi Vince,
sorry but if it is symmetric the bottom must be like the top, which is flat.
To generate lift we need a curved surface which the tail plane patently does
not have.
In theory the tail plane is not needed on a properly balanced aircraft
except to interfere with the airflow to enable the pilot to change direction
or correct for unstable air.
I still think the VG`s merely stop the boundary layer from breaking away and
would still like to see some smoke or tuft tests in a wind tunnel.
By the way, where did you get this Flying Flea stuff from? I did actually
see one when I was a kid and was very impressed as what kid woudn`t have
been. However they were banned in the UK after a few crashes and the many
planes which were being built in garages all over the place were never
finished. The problem was that the plane would get into an irrecoverable
deep stall. They continued to fly on the Continent however and still do
though the grandson (I think) of the original designer has produced an
updated but still pretty idiosyncratic replacement. Several usually fly from
France to the UK in the Spring for our main ultralight gathering. They are
rather like the deux chevaux car. Very French.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 26
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Mr. Ladd is correct; >>
Hey Howard,
what with this Mr Ladd stuff?
I know I am a panty waist, button down Limey with a funny accent but Pat
will do just fine. No need to stand to attention
Ii was in the ranks myself, once.
Cheers
Pat :-)
do not archive
--
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
"lift producers (positive or negative), butjust swirl the air under the
elevator...>>
Hi David,
I would have thought that `swirling the air` is just what they DONT do. The
boundary layer on a surface as far as we are concerned is required to
`stick` and flow smoothly. The VG`s help this to happen after the flow would
normally have `broken away`.
Can anybody get access to or contrive a wind tunnel? The Wrights made one
out of a cardboard box. Surely with all the talent on the list some `real`
answers can be obtained. We are all arguing theory here, each of us `as we
understand it` some dragging up basic theory we have not thought seriously
about in years. Did we remember correctly what that instructor said?
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
, the "Hemlock Special"...
David,
love the name.
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Depends on which direction it is lifting.>>
Hi John,
irrispective of which side of the road I drive on, gravity, which usually we
are lifting against, points down.
Space stations excluded!
Pat :-)
do not archive
--
Message 30
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| Subject: | Learning to fly the Firestar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Lanny Fetterman <donaho@csrlink.net>
Douglas, What engine is on your FSII? What ultralights have you flown in
the past? Also how far in the past? I agree that you should get some dual
time if you can. But I could tell you more if I knew more about your
ultralight experience. Lanny Fetterman FSII N598LF Do not archive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to fly the Firestar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
USArmy wrote:
> Can anyone give me any suggestions on how I should go about learning to fly this
type of plane ?
> Douglas
Douglas,
If you've flown for years, you already know how to fly a Firestar II. The one mistake
that pilots make when coming from heavier airplanes, is they pull off the
power allowing for a big flair, then stall. These light planes slow down FAST.
So, keep an eye on the airspeed until your wheels are within 6 feet of the
ground. Then, if you are not used to a tail dragger, don't let the mains touch
before the tail, and it will not be an issue. With the exception of the weight,
think of it as an airplane and not an ultralight and you will do better. If
you are not current, get current before flying.
do not archive
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24667#24667
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to fly the Firestar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Aaron Gustafson" <agustafson@chartermi.net>
>>>until your wheels are within 6 feet of the ground.<<<
More like two feet!! There is no flair. If you're above stall speed and you
pull back on the stick, YOU GO UP, stall and then you go down. Maybe hard!
Just fly it to the ground.
Aaron
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to fly the Firestar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
I agree with Aaron, For me, the most important thing I learned about my
Firestar was that there is no flare on landing, you either fly it to the
ground or fall out of the sky.
I always land mains first and keep the tail wheel off the ground as long as
I can to bleed off speed.
Other than that the Firestar is as straight forward and easy to fly as you
can get.
CM
do not archive
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
"sorry but if it is symmetric(al) the bottom must be like the top,
which is flat.
To generate lift we need a curved surface which the tail plane
patently does
not have."
Mirable scriptu! No lift from a flat plate? Next, the battle of
Bernoulli vs Newton, or who lifts yer wing?
regards,
Bob N.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to fly the Firestar |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
[/quote]If you're above stall speed and you pull back on the stick, YOU GO UP,
stall and then you go down. Maybe hard!
Aaron[/quote]
Aaron,
Speak for yourself. Your plane may go up when you pull back the stick over the
runway, mine doesn't. I did have that problem a few times, but that was over 1,000
landings ago.
do not archive
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24687#24687
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steven Green" <Kolbdriver@bellsouth.net>
And paper airplanes can't fly!
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Noyer" <a58r@verizon.net>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
>
> "sorry but if it is symmetric(al) the bottom must be like the top,
> which is flat.
> To generate lift we need a curved surface which the tail plane
> patently does
> not have."
> Mirable scriptu! No lift from a flat plate? Next, the battle of
> Bernoulli vs Newton, or who lifts yer wing?
>
> regards,
> Bob N.
> http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bill Vincent" <emailbill@chartermi.net>
Hi Gang
I just received my April, Ultralight Flying magazine, and I noticed that at Sun
'N Fun this year at the Friday Night airshow, on April 7th, they are featuring
a father/daughter Ultralight Wing Walking show. It is the team of Bob Essell
and his daughter Jennie Forsythe; this is first time I have ever heard of an
Ultralight Wing Walking act.
Bill Vincent
Firestar II
Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Do Not Archive
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirk Smith" <snuffy@usol.com>
which is flat.
> To generate lift we need a curved surface which the tail plane
> patently does
> not have."
Unless we bend it in the middle......
Do not archive
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
If'n I catch any of my four daughters walkin' on mah wings, well,
there goes their funny cigarette allowance. And my typing thumbs got
entangled on Marabile...sorry.
regards,
Bob N.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
Thom Riddle wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
> This JOA guy has lost all credibility with me due to his statement about the
tail stalling first causing the tail to be low.
Is this guy even a pilot????
Thom,
I think there must be some misunderstanding or misinterpretation here!
Joa owns and flys a Rans S7. www.landshorter.com ~ Earl
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Steven G:
Nor a sheet of plywoood.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 42
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Gang:
My buddy Steven Green wants to know what airfoil he should use on his
box kite. March is almost over and he wants to get some serious
flying in before the winds die down.
john h
MKIII with flat wing (on the bottom)
DO NOT ARHIVE
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Airfoils aka box kites |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
In 1935 my friends and I made a so-called french War Kite: a 10' tall
box kite with wings, made from bamboo rug poles and much butcher
paper from one kid's father's meat store. Used all the clothes line
available (and made available). Won a week at Boy Scout Camp (=$7).
Later, fitted with a board seat hung some 50' from kite, the youngest
gang member was hoisted aloft...maybe 50-60' until his screams
alerted some of our mothers, and Phil was reeled in...never to fly
again.
regards,
Bob N.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Did I hear someone call for a wind tunnel....?
I am at your service, Sir....
...Moving right along... Fer whatever it's worth, I stuck six of
Brother Shackleford's semi-patented
VG's on the bottom of the Firefly's horizontal stabs about 18 months
ago... three on a side... just forward
of the elevators... objective was to increase elevator authority in
full stall
landings... they work like a charm... major improvement... I'm a
believer...
Barely worth what ye paid fer it...
Stalled Beauford
FF#076
Brandon, FL
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
>
> I would have thought that `swirling the air` is just what they DONT
do.>
> Can anybody get access to or contrive a wind tunnel? The Wrights
made one
> out of a cardboard box. >
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| full stall
| landings... they work like a charm... major improvement... I'm a
| believer...
|
| Barely worth what ye paid fer it...
|
| Stalled Beauford
Beauford:
Was that positive or negative stall?
john h
MKIII barely able to get past the stall.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Yessir, it was....
B.
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> >>
> Beauford:
>
> Was that positive or negative stall?
>
> john h
>.
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Land Shorter <landshorter2@yahoo.com>
Ok guys, I'll hop into the frying pan here. Normally I don't pipe up on the forums
too much (except the Rans forums) but John called and emailed me explaining
that there might be a little bit of confusion about why folks put VGs on the
tail.
Now granted, I'm just coming off a 12+ hour workday trying to certify the Kodiak
so I might be a little rummy here :)
Let me tell you what I saw on my S-7 (and similar to what I hear from many of
my customers) and maybe that will help explain the effect VGs have when you place
them on the hor stab....
Before I put VGs on the tail but had them on the wing I couldn't even get a full
stall, it would just mush. Granted my "minimum flying speed" was much better
than before I put the VGs on the wing but I still couldn't get a stall so I
knew I wasn't going as slow as I possibly could. Basically my elevator wasn't
effective enough to get my wing to a high enough angle of attack to stall now
that it had the VGs. As Jeremy correctly pointed out this is the same effect
that kept the Ercoupes from being able to stall the wing except that Fred Weick
did it by limiting elevator travel. The later Ercoupes (I use to own a G
model) could stall just dandy (but still not spin). In fact they have a very
sharp stall due to the NACA 5 digit airfoil and could really benefit from VGs.
Anybody want to do an STC?? Sorry, I'm off track....
Ok, so where I use to really notice it (besides the non-stall) is when landing
with someone in the back seat. I just didn't have the elevator authority to
quickly flare and arrest my sink rate and ended up having to come in a little
faster than normal and float a bit more so that I wouldn't bounce.
Well now after I've put VGs on the tail I definitely can get a stall if I slow
down to below the speed I was at before (with VGs just on the wing). In fact
if I put power to her I can get the nose up so high and hang on the prop so
much that it's downright scary and when it finally does stall it is very noticable
because you're going so slow. Of course you don't really need this extreme
of attitude unless you're doing a really aggressive flare on landing. This
is a great way to really get in short if you need to (but is of course harder
on your gear and airframe and it helps to have balloon tires). Pull up hard
and 3-point stall it on and get on the brakes so that your tail comes back up
and hold the brakes as hard as you can without nosing over (not to start a religious
debate between wheelies and 3-pointers but my experience is that a proper
aggressive 3-point with heavy braking will get you stopped a lot faster than
a tail high wheel landing). If you really want t
o see
some good sticks display this technique then buy the video "Big Rocks Long Props".
Those boys are amazing!
What happens is that when you are at a high angle of attack with the stick full
aft the air separates/breaks off at the hingeline on the underside of the stab
and reduces the amount of downforce the tail can provide to rotate the wing
to a higher angle of attack. I'm not positive the tail is actually fully "stalled"
in the way we think of a wing as stalling but it's easier to think of
it as just "not producing enough lift required to rotate the wing any more".
Anyway, that's my experience and I'm stickin' to it :) Here's the best part-
you can find out for yourself and I won't even charge you if they don't work
as advertised. So far not a single person has taken me up on my money back guarantee
because they haven't worked on the tail.
By the way, the certified plane that I'm working on has VGs on the tail too.
Hmm, wonder who designed them? :)
Oh, I'm definitely a pilot and if I'm in your neck of the woods (or you're in mine
in N Idaho) I would love to fly with any of you and we can go out and have
some dandy fun. It would help if you had big tires but even if you don't I'm
sure we can get in to some really fun places and put some of this talk into practice
:)
Speaking of... soon after SnF a bunch of the Rans guys are going to try to get
together somewhere around Alvord Desert (SE Oregon) or thereabouts and have
a little informal spring fly-in. We should get some Kolbs coming too. Once I
get a date and location I'll try to remember to let you all know. Lots of fun
:)
Joa
www.landshorter.com
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
And Langewiesche is flippin' over about now, too.
Ed in JXN
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Noyer" <a58r@verizon.net>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
>
> "sorry but if it is symmetric(al) the bottom must be like the top,
> which is flat.
> To generate lift we need a curved surface which the tail plane
> patently does
> not have."
> Mirable scriptu! No lift from a flat plate? Next, the battle of
> Bernoulli vs Newton, or who lifts yer wing?
>
> regards,
> Bob N.
> http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
>
> do not archive
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