Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:19 AM - Re: Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking (GeoR38@aol.com)
2. 05:05 AM - Re: Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking (Jenny)
3. 05:20 AM - Flight Testing VG's/Make and Model Specific (John Hauck)
4. 05:42 AM - Re: Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking (Paul Petty)
5. 05:51 AM - Re: 4th Annual Sun & Fun Kolb Kathering (Paul Petty)
6. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: 4th Annual Sun & Fun Kolb Kathering (ghaley@wt.net)
7. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II (Thom Riddle)
8. 07:07 AM - Gap seal (Terry Frantz)
9. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: 4th Annual Sun & Fun Kolb Kathering (John Hauck)
10. 07:31 AM - Re: Gap seal (John Hauck)
11. 08:07 AM - Re: Gap seal (Richard Pike)
12. 01:12 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Chris Mallory)
13. 01:36 PM - a stall between 2 fools (Chris Mallory)
14. 04:56 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Robert Laird)
15. 05:15 PM - Re: Gap seal (Terry Frantz)
16. 05:17 PM - Re: Flight Testing VG's/Make and Model Specific (Denny Rowe)
17. 05:26 PM - Re: Gap seal (John Hauck)
18. 06:08 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Chris Mallory)
19. 09:40 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Larry Cottrell)
20. 09:57 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Robert Laird)
21. 11:39 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Ed Chmielewski)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: GeoR38@aol.com
In a message dated 3/29/2006 12:51:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
slyck@frontiernet.net writes:
>>> Hi Gang
>>>
>>> I just received my April, Ultralight Flying magazine, and I noticed
>>> that at Sun 'N Fun this year at the Friday Night airshow, on April
>>> 7th, they are featuring a father/daughter Ultralight Wing Walking
>>> show. It is the team of Bob Essell and his daughter Jennie Forsythe;
>>> this is first time I have ever heard of an Ultralight Wing Walking
>>> act.
>>>
>>> Bill Vincent
>>> Firestar II
>>> Upper Peninsula of Michigan
I know about Bob Essell's wing walking act on an ultralight PUSHER.....PROP
SPINNING RIGHT BEHIND THE WALKER (a small fella from Sharpsville Pa, in those
days), because, I hired him for $2k to perform the act at my cousin's
Bavarian Funfest at Yankee Lake in Aug of 1996. No one, I mean no one was doing
such an act. I ended up being the announcer as I owned the microphone. Not a
very good announcer, but what an act!!! They flew around the fairgrounds for a
good 10 minutes scaring the h--- out of everyone walkin around with beer or
ice cream cones. Everyone else was scared too.
Bob always impressed me as a nice guy but if he has his daughter doing the
act now, he may be proving to be a relative of Michael Jackson. Bob is a risk
taker but he always makes it look easy, and he always seems to come out on
top......er....flyin the plane.
George Randolph
Firestar driver from The Villages, Fl
Rotax 447, 3 blade Ivo, KX, 1991
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jenny" <jennygeol@netscape.net>
Hi everyone!
I noticed your posts about dad and me and just wanted to take a moment to clarify
a few things and give you a better introduction to our team...
There's no Michael Jackson funny business going on here - when I first told dad
that I wanted to be the next wingwalker (after hearing Jon was retiring), dad's
first reaction was "NO WAY". It took me 6 weeks to convince him to let me
give it a try. And it's not like I was 13 years old - I was 33!
Also, dad's been doing the UL wingwalking thing since the early 1990s, this is nothing new to him. We come from a family tradition rich in aviation and showmanship - this stuff is just in the genes... Dad's also a flight instructor (see www.libertyairsports.com for that side of the business) and I'm also a wingwalker on a 450 Stearman with Walt Pierce (www.americanbarnstormer.com).
Quite simply, we love what we do!
Jenny
Wingwalker
Bob Essell Airshows
www.bobessellairshows.com
Here's a little preview of what we'll be performing at Sun 'n Fun:
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24967#24967
Message 3
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| Subject: | Flight Testing VG's/Make and Model Specific |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Meant to ask Joa about his flight testing program for specific makes
and models aircraft, but forgot.
If Joa is still around, perhaps he can share some light on thig
subject.
BTW: Got a post card from Joa in the mail yesterday.
john h
MKIII
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Sun 'N Fun Ultralight Wing Walking |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
Very cool Jenny. I look forward to seeing your performance friday night!
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24976#24976
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 4th Annual Sun & Fun Kolb Kathering |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <lynnp@g-gate.net>
Richard,
Thanks for the invite! I will be there friday afternoon and looking for a place
to pitch my tent. Any advice for where to camp or how to get there will be greatly
appreciated. I will have my trusty cell phone. 601-480-9979
thanks
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24977#24977
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 4th Annual Sun & Fun Kolb Kathering |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ghaley@wt.net
Hello John H,
I am flying down (Continental) on Wednesday coming back on Sunday, staying in
a B&B. I will have a rental car and will be glad take you to dinner whenever
you want.
Cell: 713-725-4112
-- Gary
Quoting John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> | If we are not there, just make yourself at home.
>
> Wanted to personally thank Richard and George for their offer of
> hospitality.
>
> I plan to fly down Monday. Will be living with the airplane for the
> week, so will be obliged, especially in the evening, if anyone is
> going to town for chow. Something about Sun and Fun that encourages
> starvation.
>
> Plan on camping in the UL tiedown area at the NE corner of the UL
> airstrip with Miss P'fer.
>
> Ya'll come by and sit a spell. The porch lights on and the door is
> always open.
>
> john h
> MKIII
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Thom Riddle <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Possums,
My comment about JOA's lost credibility had to do with his statement
that the VGs on the tail would enable the standard gear leg Kolb to
land at high angles of attack without the tail hitting first. This
could only be true if the tail was generating UPWARDS lift which is
most definitely not the case in a Kolb with the stick back and nose
pitching upwards. By definition, a high wing AOA the tail is low, so
JOAs statement is clearly impossible.
My comment had nothing to do with the location of the VGs on the tail.
I agree that with the normal configuration horizontal stabilizer (the
tail lift vector is down) the VGs on the bottom could help generate
more downward lift at high TAIL AOA. High tail AOA (stick all the way
back) produces low tail position relative to the rest of the airplane.
I hope this clears up my statement, probably didn't but that is the
best I can do.
Thom in Buffalo
do not archive
--> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
At 07:40 AM 3/27/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle"
<jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>
>This JOA guy has lost all credibility with me due to his
statement
>about the tail stalling first causing the tail to be low.
I don't know about that - if you do a Google Search on
"horizontal stabilizer" & "vortex generators" you will find out
that everybody recommends putting them on the "bottom" of
the Horizontal stabilizer, not just this JOA guy. Even in the
GA planes.
Message 8
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry Frantz <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
I have a friend who acquired a BRS soft pack for his FireStar II. He is
asking for ideas on how to build a full enclosure gap seal that will
allow the chute to still be deployed. Because of bad past experience he
does not want to use velcro in any manor. I did search the archives and
came up with some material.
Any and all suggestions on the construction of a gap seal would be much
appreciated by him. I will shuttle the information to him.
Terry - FireFly #95
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 4th Annual Sun & Fun Kolb Kathering |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Any advice for where to camp or how to get there will be greatly
appreciated.
| Paul Petty
Get on West Pipkin Rd (on south side of LAL. It is the road that runs
east into 98 in Lakeland. South of LAL.
Turn north on Airside Center Dr. Only way you can turn onto Airside.
Go north 3 blocks to Flightline Dr and turn left/west.
Proceed west on Flightline Dr several blocks. On the left will be the
UL Camping Area. The gate will be in the NW corner.
You will probably see a gate guard before you get to the UL Camping
Area. He "may" answer your questions.
If you are lost, call me on my cell phone: 334-315-2621.
john h
MKIII
PS: You may be able to punch "Flightline Dr, Lakeland Airport, FL"
into one of the map programs and print out a map and instructions.
Message 10
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|
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
much
| appreciated by him. I will shuttle the information to him.
|
| Terry - FireFly #95
BRS gave me a couple sheets of what they call "frangible hair cell
plastic". I used this black sheet to make the top of my gap
seal/parachute stowage. Their instructions were to use a utility
knife to score the inside of the plastic where the rocket will strike
the plastic and where the deployment bag and parachute will be pulled
through it. There was a particular pattern described in the
instructions. The original sheet is six years old now. It is
becoming unserviceable and starting to split in places. Some of the
splits I repaired with black silicone seal. The last I discovered
when I was getting ready to take off on a cross country flight. I did
a quick fix on it with a piece of 2" electrical tape. 1" would have
probably gotten the job done though.
Take care,
john h
MKIII/Softpack BRS
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Contact me off list and I'll send you some .jpg pictures of how I did mine.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
richard@bcchapel.org
Terry Frantz wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry Frantz <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
>
> I have a friend who acquired a BRS soft pack for his FireStar II. He is
> asking for ideas on how to build a full enclosure gap seal that will
> allow the chute to still be deployed. Because of bad past experience he
> does not want to use velcro in any manor. I did search the archives and
> came up with some material.
>
> Any and all suggestions on the construction of a gap seal would be much
> appreciated by him. I will shuttle the information to him.
>
> Terry - FireFly #95
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
Actually, the dictionary defines flying as "To rise into or move through the
air" .... and when a Hawk dives on another bird (prey) it's wings are folded
back against it's body and is in a free fall.
So, is it flying or falling? If it's flying then so is anything else that is
airborne and independent of any outside support.
My two cents
CM
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
>
> Sorry to butt in with my 2-cents, but, "flying" implies some kind of
> control, otherwise, it's just falling with style (apologies to B.
> Lightyear). A house sucked up into a tornado (which, by every image
> I've seen, is no longer a house but a collection of boards), a piece
> of plywood being blown around by a hurricane... these items are not
> flying. There is no control. A parachutist who simply jumps and does
> nothing else is simply falling. But if the parachutist purposefully
> changes direction, moves away then back, and all those other fancy
> moves I've seen them do, then I'd say they were flying. Just as
> surely as a hawk, diving from way above on to a hapless dove, would be
> flying.
>
> Thus, an tail section, since there is control, no matter how flat,
> providing no lift, positive lift, or negative lift, is flying.
>
> -- Robert
>
>
> On 3/28/06, Ed Chmielewski <edchmiel@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski"
>> <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Hi Pat,
>>
>> I'd guess Bob's statement of "No lift from a flat plate? Next,
>> the
>> battle of Bernoulli vs Newton, or who lifts yer wing?" was meant
>> tongue-in-cheek. Lift does not need an "airfoil shape" to be produced,
>> only
>> relative wind and angle-of-attack. In a tornado, do not houses and other
>> large, previously unairworthy objects fly? I would heartily disagree
>> with
>> your statement, "Then the tailplane and elevator, considered as one, take
>> on
>> a roughly airofoil shape and it is this which produces the `lift`,
>> deflects
>> the airflow and the resultant force moves the tail up or down." The
>> elevator in this case can be said to deflect the air (Newton) more than
>> it
>> creates an airfoil with the horizontal stab (Bernoulli). Combinations of
>> principals like these explain why aerobatic aircraft with
>> fully-symmetrical
>> surfaces are able to fly.
>> I would hold that there are no absolutes in aerodynamics theory,
>> only combinations of known principals.
>>
>> Where's Topher when you really need him??
>>
>> Ed in JXN
>> Do not archive.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:56 AM
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
>>
>>
>> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>> >
>> > Zounds and forsooth!.What have I got myself into?
>> >
>> > Nevertheless, I will try to fight my corner. Yes, a flat plate, say
>> > held
>> > out of the car window at an angle, will deflect a flow of air and
>> > produce
>> > an
>> > opposite force. Held at zero angle of attack it will not. An airofoil
>> > section at zero AoA, WILL produce lift.
>> > In each case the lift is produced by changing the direction of the
>> > airflow
>> > The tail plane I contend acts like the flat plate and exerts no force
>> > until
>> > the elevator is moved. Then the tailplane and elevator, considered as
>> > one,
>> > take on a roughly airofoil shape and it is this which produces the
>> > `lift`,
>> > deflects the airflow and the resultant force moves the tail up or down.
>> > In
>> > the case of the rudder, which no one normally reckons as producing lift
>> > the
>> > same thing turns right or left. The rudder after all is only a
>> > tailplane
>> > turned through 90 degrees.
>> >
>> > I can hear the bell going for the second round already. Ding ding!
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> >
>> > Pat
>> >
>> > do not archive
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
P.S. I think that what the point here is, is the difference between "Flight"
and "Controlled Flight"
Cm
Do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
Oh boy, I get to disgress even further! :-)
The hawk isn't in free fall because it's using it's wings to control
direction, speed, etc.
Anyway, I *did* use the word "imply", so it's no fair using a dictionary. ;-)
-- Robert
oh, and, do not archive
On 3/29/06, Chris Mallory <wcm@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Actually, the dictionary defines flying as "To rise into or move through the
> air" .... and when a Hawk dives on another bird (prey) it's wings are folded
> back against it's body and is in a free fall.
>
> So, is it flying or falling? If it's flying then so is anything else that is
> airborne and independent of any outside support.
>
> My two cents
>
> CM
>
> Do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
> >
> > Sorry to butt in with my 2-cents, but, "flying" implies some kind of
> > control, otherwise, it's just falling with style (apologies to B.
> > Lightyear). A house sucked up into a tornado (which, by every image
> > I've seen, is no longer a house but a collection of boards), a piece
> > of plywood being blown around by a hurricane... these items are not
> > flying. There is no control. A parachutist who simply jumps and does
> > nothing else is simply falling. But if the parachutist purposefully
> > changes direction, moves away then back, and all those other fancy
> > moves I've seen them do, then I'd say they were flying. Just as
> > surely as a hawk, diving from way above on to a hapless dove, would be
> > flying.
> >
> > Thus, an tail section, since there is control, no matter how flat,
> > providing no lift, positive lift, or negative lift, is flying.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> >
> > On 3/28/06, Ed Chmielewski <edchmiel@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski"
> >> <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
> >>
> >> Hi Pat,
> >>
> >> I'd guess Bob's statement of "No lift from a flat plate? Next,
> >> the
> >> battle of Bernoulli vs Newton, or who lifts yer wing?" was meant
> >> tongue-in-cheek. Lift does not need an "airfoil shape" to be produced,
> >> only
> >> relative wind and angle-of-attack. In a tornado, do not houses and other
> >> large, previously unairworthy objects fly? I would heartily disagree
> >> with
> >> your statement, "Then the tailplane and elevator, considered as one, take
> >> on
> >> a roughly airofoil shape and it is this which produces the `lift`,
> >> deflects
> >> the airflow and the resultant force moves the tail up or down." The
> >> elevator in this case can be said to deflect the air (Newton) more than
> >> it
> >> creates an airfoil with the horizontal stab (Bernoulli). Combinations of
> >> principals like these explain why aerobatic aircraft with
> >> fully-symmetrical
> >> surfaces are able to fly.
> >> I would hold that there are no absolutes in aerodynamics theory,
> >> only combinations of known principals.
> >>
> >> Where's Topher when you really need him??
> >>
> >> Ed in JXN
> >> Do not archive.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
> >> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:56 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
> >>
> >>
> >> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
> >> >
> >> > Zounds and forsooth!.What have I got myself into?
> >> >
> >> > Nevertheless, I will try to fight my corner. Yes, a flat plate, say
> >> > held
> >> > out of the car window at an angle, will deflect a flow of air and
> >> > produce
> >> > an
> >> > opposite force. Held at zero angle of attack it will not. An airofoil
> >> > section at zero AoA, WILL produce lift.
> >> > In each case the lift is produced by changing the direction of the
> >> > airflow
> >> > The tail plane I contend acts like the flat plate and exerts no force
> >> > until
> >> > the elevator is moved. Then the tailplane and elevator, considered as
> >> > one,
> >> > take on a roughly airofoil shape and it is this which produces the
> >> > `lift`,
> >> > deflects the airflow and the resultant force moves the tail up or down.
> >> > In
> >> > the case of the rudder, which no one normally reckons as producing lift
> >> > the
> >> > same thing turns right or left. The rudder after all is only a
> >> > tailplane
> >> > turned through 90 degrees.
> >> >
> >> > I can hear the bell going for the second round already. Ding ding!
> >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >> > Pat
> >> >
> >> > do not archive
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 15
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry Frantz <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
John Hauck wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
>much
>| appreciated by him. I will shuttle the information to him.
>|
>| Terry - FireFly #95
>
>BRS gave me a couple sheets of what they call "frangible hair cell
>plastic". I used this black sheet to make the top of my gap
>seal/parachute stowage. Their instructions were to use a utility
>knife to score the inside of the plastic where the rocket will strike
>the plastic and where the deployment bag and parachute will be pulled
>through it. There was a particular pattern described in the
>instructions. The original sheet is six years old now. It is
>becoming unserviceable and starting to split in places. Some of the
>splits I repaired with black silicone seal. The last I discovered
>when I was getting ready to take off on a cross country flight. I did
>a quick fix on it with a piece of 2" electrical tape. 1" would have
>probably gotten the job done though.
>
>Take care,
>
>john h
>MKIII/Softpack BRS
>
>
>
>
John,
Thanks for the info! Where are you going to get a new piece when you
redo it? Is it available from BRS?
Terry
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Testing VG's/Make and Model Specific |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
>
> BTW: Got a post card from Joa in the mail yesterday.
>
> john h
> MKIII
>
>
>
> Me too John.
Denny
do not archive
Message 17
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
you
| redo it? Is it available from BRS?
|
| Terry
BRS sent me two pieces when I bought the parachute. Got a spare for
near time overhaul of gap seal.
Don't know if BRS has the frangible hair cell plastic sheet or not.
john h
MKIII
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
I apologize, you are correct...... and I did cheat with the dictionary.
CM
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
>
> Oh boy, I get to disgress even further! :-)
>
> The hawk isn't in free fall because it's using it's wings to control
> direction, speed, etc.
>
> Anyway, I *did* use the word "imply", so it's no fair using a dictionary.
> ;-)
>
> -- Robert
>
> oh, and, do not archive
>
> On 3/29/06, Chris Mallory <wcm@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris Mallory" <wcm@tampabay.rr.com>
>>
>> Actually, the dictionary defines flying as "To rise into or move through
>> the
>> air" .... and when a Hawk dives on another bird (prey) it's wings are
>> folded
>> back against it's body and is in a free fall.
>>
>> So, is it flying or falling? If it's flying then so is anything else that
>> is
>> airborne and independent of any outside support.
>>
>> My two cents
>>
>> CM
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
>> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
>>
>>
>> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
>> >
>> > Sorry to butt in with my 2-cents, but, "flying" implies some kind of
>> > control, otherwise, it's just falling with style (apologies to B.
>> > Lightyear). A house sucked up into a tornado (which, by every image
>> > I've seen, is no longer a house but a collection of boards), a piece
>> > of plywood being blown around by a hurricane... these items are not
>> > flying. There is no control. A parachutist who simply jumps and does
>> > nothing else is simply falling. But if the parachutist purposefully
>> > changes direction, moves away then back, and all those other fancy
>> > moves I've seen them do, then I'd say they were flying. Just as
>> > surely as a hawk, diving from way above on to a hapless dove, would be
>> > flying.
>> >
>> > Thus, an tail section, since there is control, no matter how flat,
>> > providing no lift, positive lift, or negative lift, is flying.
>> >
>> > -- Robert
>> >
>> >
>> > On 3/28/06, Ed Chmielewski <edchmiel@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski"
>> >> <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
>> >>
>> >> Hi Pat,
>> >>
>> >> I'd guess Bob's statement of "No lift from a flat plate? Next,
>> >> the
>> >> battle of Bernoulli vs Newton, or who lifts yer wing?" was meant
>> >> tongue-in-cheek. Lift does not need an "airfoil shape" to be
>> >> produced,
>> >> only
>> >> relative wind and angle-of-attack. In a tornado, do not houses and
>> >> other
>> >> large, previously unairworthy objects fly? I would heartily disagree
>> >> with
>> >> your statement, "Then the tailplane and elevator, considered as one,
>> >> take
>> >> on
>> >> a roughly airofoil shape and it is this which produces the `lift`,
>> >> deflects
>> >> the airflow and the resultant force moves the tail up or down." The
>> >> elevator in this case can be said to deflect the air (Newton) more
>> >> than
>> >> it
>> >> creates an airfoil with the horizontal stab (Bernoulli). Combinations
>> >> of
>> >> principals like these explain why aerobatic aircraft with
>> >> fully-symmetrical
>> >> surfaces are able to fly.
>> >> I would hold that there are no absolutes in aerodynamics
>> >> theory,
>> >> only combinations of known principals.
>> >>
>> >> Where's Topher when you really need him??
>> >>
>> >> Ed in JXN
>> >> Do not archive.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>> >> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:56 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>> >> >
>> >> > Zounds and forsooth!.What have I got myself into?
>> >> >
>> >> > Nevertheless, I will try to fight my corner. Yes, a flat plate, say
>> >> > held
>> >> > out of the car window at an angle, will deflect a flow of air and
>> >> > produce
>> >> > an
>> >> > opposite force. Held at zero angle of attack it will not. An
>> >> > airofoil
>> >> > section at zero AoA, WILL produce lift.
>> >> > In each case the lift is produced by changing the direction of the
>> >> > airflow
>> >> > The tail plane I contend acts like the flat plate and exerts no
>> >> > force
>> >> > until
>> >> > the elevator is moved. Then the tailplane and elevator, considered
>> >> > as
>> >> > one,
>> >> > take on a roughly airofoil shape and it is this which produces the
>> >> > `lift`,
>> >> > deflects the airflow and the resultant force moves the tail up or
>> >> > down.
>> >> > In
>> >> > the case of the rudder, which no one normally reckons as producing
>> >> > lift
>> >> > the
>> >> > same thing turns right or left. The rudder after all is only a
>> >> > tailplane
>> >> > turned through 90 degrees.
>> >> >
>> >> > I can hear the bell going for the second round already. Ding ding!
>> >> >
>> >> > Cheers
>> >> >
>> >> > Pat
>> >> >
>> >> > do not archive
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
>
> Oh boy, I get to disgress even further! :-)
>
> The hawk isn't in free fall because it's using it's wings to control
> direction, speed, etc.
Well I guess that it is time that I chimed in. As a falconer whose current
bird is a Peregrine, reputed to be the fastest bird in the world, I do know
a bit about this subject. First the speed of gravity is somewhere around 120
MPH. A Falcon in a "stoop" can reach speeds reported to be around 200 MPH.
They achieve this speed by pulling their wings into a "tear drop"
configuration. A bit different from free fall. This stoop is often from very
high altitudes and cause a phenomenon that makes a sound not unlike ripping
canvas, and when it culminates in a cloud of Pheasant feathers is guaranteed
to cause a state of orgasmic bliss in the attending falconer. :-)
Larry, Oregon
do not archive please
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
Oh boy, oh boy, I'm having fun now!
"First the speed of gravity is somewhere around 120 MPH."
Uh, okay, but you'll have to inform all of the world's physicists of
this... they -- the silly guys -- think gravity is 32 ft/sec/sec, and
is an accelerating force, so, in a vacuum, you would continue to
accelerate until you hit something (air molecules, granite boulders,
etc.). Depending on how far up you started (I won't bother with the
math), you could *way* exceed 120mph.
What you may have meant was the so-called "terminal velocity" of
120mph... that is, a typical human body will create enough resistance
falling through the air, arms and legs flailing, to prevent much
additional speed beyond 120mph. Now, I'm not certain but, if a human
got into some kind of crouch, or maybe stretched out pointing straight
down, I'd bet they could exceed that "terminal" velocity, maybe even
up to 200mph.
The point about the hawk/falcon was that it isn't falling when it
dives for its prey, but had control over it's aerodynamic surfaces so
is, thus, flying, in my truly humble opinion. Again, I'm not sure,
but I think you were agreeing with me. The falcon is a truly
wonderful creature!
-- Robert
do not archive
On 3/29/06, Larry Cottrell <lcottrel@kfalls.net> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
> >
> > Oh boy, I get to disgress even further! :-)
> >
> > The hawk isn't in free fall because it's using it's wings to control
> > direction, speed, etc.
>
>
> Well I guess that it is time that I chimed in. As a falconer whose current
> bird is a Peregrine, reputed to be the fastest bird in the world, I do know
> a bit about this subject. First the speed of gravity is somewhere around 120
> MPH. A Falcon in a "stoop" can reach speeds reported to be around 200 MPH.
> They achieve this speed by pulling their wings into a "tear drop"
> configuration. A bit different from free fall. This stoop is often from very
> high altitudes and cause a phenomenon that makes a sound not unlike ripping
> canvas, and when it culminates in a cloud of Pheasant feathers is guaranteed
> to cause a state of orgasmic bliss in the attending falconer. :-)
> Larry, Oregon
>
> do not archive please
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Joe Kittinger, the holder of the free-fall altitude record (103,000 ft. or
so, IIRC) purportedly exceeded Mach 1 and used a drogue chute to slow down
and stabilize in the descent.
Ed in JXN
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Laird" <rlaird@cavediver.com>
>
(Snip)
Now, I'm not certain but, if a human
> got into some kind of crouch, or maybe stretched out pointing straight
> down, I'd bet they could exceed that "terminal" velocity, maybe even
> up to 200mph.
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