Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:51 AM - Adventures in flutter (Richard Girard)
2. 07:19 AM - Re: Adventures in flutter (John Jung)
3. 08:10 AM - Re: Another Porcupine Kolb (thanks John H., I like the name) tak (John Jung)
4. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: Adventures in flutter (Richard Girard)
5. 08:50 AM - Re: Adventures in flutter (Richard Pike)
6. 10:59 AM - Re: Instrument Markings (pollus)
7. 01:51 PM - Re: sneaky wind ... pic (planecrazzzy)
8. 05:38 PM - Re: Adventures in flutter (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
9. 07:07 PM - Re: Adventures in flutter (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
10. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: sneaky wind ... pic (Flycrazy8@aol.com)
11. 07:46 PM - Re: 2 stroke adventure (Mike Schnabel)
12. 08:21 PM - Re: sneaky wind ... pic (Possum)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Adventures in flutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy@gmail.com>
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I encounered flutter in the left aileron
at about 75 mph on my fifth flight in my Mark III. Although I have tried to
maintain good airspeed control to stay out of the flutter regime, it
happened twice more, in both ailerons. After the last ime, I grounded the
aircraft until I could get the counter balances installed. I was doing a
general condition inspection pior to the installation and found that each
blade of the Warp Drive three blade prop had a divot in the forward surface
that aligned quite nicely with the left flap bell crank. The paint on the
aft most point of the bell crank was missing, too. That afternoon I ordered
plans from the factory and over the days I waited for them to arrive I began
to wonder if this was becoming a chicken and egg mystery. Did the prop hit
the flap bell crank and with that rythmic beat excite the aileron into
flutter, or did the flutter cause the bell crank to contact the prop? There
appears to be adequate clearance, about an inch, between the bell crank and
the prop when checking it statically, however, checking the plans shows that
the bell cranks have been installed improperly, and are rotated about 15
degrees past vertical toward the rear.
More checking of the plans revealed that the engine mount is built upside
down in a cross between the 582 and 618 design. Rather than a single motor
mount plate that bolts to the engine and the engine's vibration isolaters,
it is composed of two plates, front and rear, carrying the isolaters atop
which are two 2" square tube risers, running fore and aft. Studs going
through the risers attach the engine to the mount plates. There are no
inserts or spacers to keep the studs from squeezing the tubes (architectural
tubing that has no radius in the corners, I might add), but a square, 1/4"
thick spacer serves to spread the load of the engine to the vertical walls
of the tubes. Clear as mud, right?
So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons and
how they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the
ailerons, here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the
Warp Drive prop and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace it
entirely with an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in
flight adjustable hub at a later date. If you are flying one of these props,
I'd like to hear your recommendation and insight.
--
Rick Girard
"Pining for a home on the Range"
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Adventures in flutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:
> So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons and how
they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the ailerons,
here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the Warp Drive prop
and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace it entirely with
an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in flight adjustable hub
at a later date. If you are flying one of these props, I'd like to hear your
recommendation and insight.
> Rick Girard
Rick,
Unless the Warp is contacting the bellcranks within an inch of the tips, or has
too much damage, I would not change props. It appears to me that the prop is
not the problem, and by changing the prop, you may make the problem worse or at
least fail to fix it. I suggest that you fix the bellcranks, if you can, as
well as the counterweights. I couldn't tell from your description if there is
or isn't a problem with the motor mount. It sound like some that I have seen on
Mark III's, and unless the bolts are not keeping soom tension, there may be
no problem.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26583#26583
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Another Porcupine Kolb (thanks John H., I like the name) |
tak
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
John B,
Thanks for taking the time to share what you learned about VG's. I found it very
interesting. As more of us follow the lead of the VG pioneers on the list, and
report results, we all stand to learn.
As much as I like my Firestar II, one disappointment was the 40 mph stall and the
lack of ability to fly with friends in Quicksilvers. Even my original Firestar
had a 35 mph stall, and could not fly with slower ultralights. Now, with VG's
and a 30 mph stall, I can fly with ultralights again.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26597#26597
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Adventures in flutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy@gmail.com>
John, I guess I left it without saying that I fixed the problem with the
bell crank installation before I did anything else. As for the prop, it's
beyond my comfort zone to fly with a prop that has visible damage, so the
question to Mark III, 582 flyers remains, which do you prefer, the Warp
drive, Ivo, or the GSC prop?
On 4/5/06, John Jung <jrjungjr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" <jrjungjr@yahoo.com>
>
>
> jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:
> > So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons
> and how they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the
> ailerons, here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the
> Warp Drive prop and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace it
> entirely with an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in
> flight adjustable hub at a later date. If you are flying one of these props,
> I'd like to hear your recommendation and insight.
> > Rick Girard
>
>
> Rick,
>
> Unless the Warp is contacting the bellcranks within an inch of the tips,
> or has too much damage, I would not change props. It appears to me that the
> prop is not the problem, and by changing the prop, you may make the problem
> worse or at least fail to fix it. I suggest that you fix the bellcranks, if
> you can, as well as the counterweights. I couldn't tell from your
> description if there is or isn't a problem with the motor mount. It sound
> like some that I have seen on Mark III's, and unless the bolts are not
> keeping soom tension, there may be no problem.
>
> --------
> John Jung
> Firestar II N6163J
> Surprise, AZ
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D26583#26583
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Pining for a home on the Range"
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Adventures in flutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
I am at a loss to understand why you need the 2" risers - I am running a
582 with a 68" Ivo & B box, and all I needed was a 1 3/8" spacer to get
enough clearance.
Also, I have a 2.5 inch spacer between the Rotax prop flange and the
prop, which gives me 5" of clearance between the flap bellcrank and the
prop.
I am of the opinion that 1" of clearance between the prop blade and the
bellcrank is not nearly enough, even considering the stiffness of the
Warp Drive. A good dose of turbulence and a bit of gyroscopic precession
of the prop, or one of my landings would be all it would take to get rid
of all of that 1" of clearance, plus a bit more.
I have seen the 2" square tube risers that you describe, and they strike
me as a poor design. I obtained a 6" length of 1.25 aluminum dowel and
took it to a machine shop and had it cut on a lathe to 1&3/8" lengths,
and then bored on the lathe so the bolts would go straight down the
middle. That gives a solid block of aluminum between the Lord mounts and
the engine motor mounts, and is probably sufficient for anything you
could sit up there, much less a lowly 582.
There are some views of it on the bottom of this page here:
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg2.htm
It is possible that there is an interaction between the flaps, ailerons
and the prop. With the prop passing so closely to the flap torque rod,
which is attached to the aileron torque rod, it is not impossible that
you could get a harmonic. Which is yet another reason to get an
extension and move the prop back another 2.5 inches away from the wing.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Richard Girard wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy@gmail.com>
>
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, I encounered flutter in the left aileron
> at about 75 mph on my fifth flight in my Mark III. Although I have tried to
> maintain good airspeed control to stay out of the flutter regime, it
> happened twice more, in both ailerons. After the last ime, I grounded the
> aircraft until I could get the counter balances installed. I was doing a
> general condition inspection pior to the installation and found that each
> blade of the Warp Drive three blade prop had a divot in the forward surface
> that aligned quite nicely with the left flap bell crank. The paint on the
> aft most point of the bell crank was missing, too. That afternoon I ordered
> plans from the factory and over the days I waited for them to arrive I began
> to wonder if this was becoming a chicken and egg mystery. Did the prop hit
> the flap bell crank and with that rythmic beat excite the aileron into
> flutter, or did the flutter cause the bell crank to contact the prop? There
> appears to be adequate clearance, about an inch, between the bell crank and
> the prop when checking it statically, however, checking the plans shows that
> the bell cranks have been installed improperly, and are rotated about 15
> degrees past vertical toward the rear.
> More checking of the plans revealed that the engine mount is built upside
> down in a cross between the 582 and 618 design. Rather than a single motor
> mount plate that bolts to the engine and the engine's vibration isolaters,
> it is composed of two plates, front and rear, carrying the isolaters atop
> which are two 2" square tube risers, running fore and aft. Studs going
> through the risers attach the engine to the mount plates. There are no
> inserts or spacers to keep the studs from squeezing the tubes (architectural
> tubing that has no radius in the corners, I might add), but a square, 1/4"
> thick spacer serves to spread the load of the engine to the vertical walls
> of the tubes. Clear as mud, right?
> So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons and
> how they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the
> ailerons, here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the
> Warp Drive prop and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace it
> entirely with an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in
> flight adjustable hub at a later date. If you are flying one of these props,
> I'd like to hear your recommendation and insight.
>
> --
> Rick Girard
> "Pining for a home on the Range"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument Markings |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: pollus <pollus@fornerod.nl>
Hi Dave
"Geschwindigkeit" is speed
"Klappen" = flaps
"Mindes" = minimum
I would be glad to translate it into dutch...
Do not archive!
Op 5-apr-2006, om 2:40 heeft Dave & Eve Pelletier het volgende
geschreven:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier"
> <pelletier@cableone.net>
>
> Pollus,
>
> Thanks, I now have to get out my conversion charts to see what
> they are
> in mph, but that will be fun to do. But ok, ok, what is a
> "klappenwhatchamacallit" and a "Mindesgesthingy"?
>
> Dave
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: pollus <pollus@fornerod.nl>
>>
>> Hi Dave
>>
>> The flight handbook I got with my MK3C states (in german)
>>
>> V(NE) = 145 km/h (= 78 knots) Zulassigge Hochstgeschwindigkeit
>> V(A) = 110 km/h (= 59 knots) Manovergeschwindigkeit
>> V(F) = 100 km/h (= 54 knots) Max Klappengeschwindigkeit
>> V(S) = 65 km/h @400 kg and flaps 30 degrees (= 35 knots)
>> Mindestgeschwindigkeit
>>
>> So far this language course. I did the km/h to knots calculation
>> myself so you might want to double check the numbers.
>>
>> Greetings from Holland
>> Pollus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Op 3-apr-2006, om 21:59 heeft Dave & Eve Pelletier het volgende
>> geschreven:
>>
>>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier"
>>> <pelletier@cableone.net>
>>>
>>> Kolbers,
>>>
>>> I have an older MK III Classic and I'm in the process of
>>> marking my instruments for an airworthiness inspection but I don't
>>> know what the max Flaps Extend (Vfe) speed and the normal operating
>>> (Vsi to Vno) range (Green Band) should be. Vsi is 42 for my
>>> plane. HELP!
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> AzDave
>>>
>>> Do Not Archive
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: sneaky wind ... pic |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
Why don't you post the picture here ?
.
.
Gotta Fly...
Mike in MN / N381PM
.
.
.
--------
I can only make One person HAPPY each day,
Today's just NOT your day....
Tomorrow doesn't look good either !
.
.
.
.
.Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26645#26645
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Adventures in flutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com
Rick
if you install an IVO prop you will get a 2 3/4 inch spacer that will help
you with your problem with the prop running close to the linkeage I run an IVO
and I like it very much
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Adventures in flutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman <emzi@supernet.com>
ElleryWeld@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com
>
> Rick
> if you install an IVO prop you will get a 2 3/4 inch spacer that will help
> you with your problem with the prop running close to the linkeage I run an IVO
> and I like it very much
>
> Ellery in Maine
>
> do not archive
>
I agree with Ellery. I would go with a two blade 68" IVO. ~ Earl
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: sneaky wind ... pic |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Flycrazy8@aol.com
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
Why don't you post the picture here ?
.
.
Gotta Fly...
Mike in MN / N381PM
Hey Gotta Fly Mike
The picture I have of the Kolb over is not that clear and doesn't transfer
well to the list.
Sent you a copy for your own obsevation and will do likewise to any other
fellow kolber on request .
Gotta GO
Stephen
Bama Firefly
Do Not Archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke adventure |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Schnabel <tnfirestar2@yahoo.com>
BB,
I must be a late comer, i can not see this video at all... has it been taken
off site already?
Mike S
Firestar2 503
Manchester TN
do not archive
Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne"
Pheee-eeeewwww ! ! ! Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert bean"
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:25 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: 2 stroke adventure
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean
>
> Morning guys, here's a video for your aviation-related entertainment.
>
>
>
> -BB do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: sneaky wind ... pic |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Possum" <possums@mindspring.com>
I got one for you. Flipped big time, but had someone in it.
No major harm done. Made T-Shirts from this Picture and
took to S & F. Had to get it down with a small crane/wrecker.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26692#26692
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/nice_landing_197.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/nice_landing_102.jpg
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