---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/05/06: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - Adventures in flutter (Richard Girard) 2. 07:19 AM - Re: Adventures in flutter (John Jung) 3. 08:10 AM - Re: Another Porcupine Kolb (thanks John H., I like the name) tak (John Jung) 4. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: Adventures in flutter (Richard Girard) 5. 08:50 AM - Re: Adventures in flutter (Richard Pike) 6. 10:59 AM - Re: Instrument Markings (pollus) 7. 01:51 PM - Re: sneaky wind ... pic (planecrazzzy) 8. 05:38 PM - Re: Adventures in flutter (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 9. 07:07 PM - Re: Adventures in flutter (Earl & Mim Zimmerman) 10. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: sneaky wind ... pic (Flycrazy8@aol.com) 11. 07:46 PM - Re: 2 stroke adventure (Mike Schnabel) 12. 08:21 PM - Re: sneaky wind ... pic (Possum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:59 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Kolb-List: Adventures in flutter --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" As I mentioned in an earlier post, I encounered flutter in the left aileron at about 75 mph on my fifth flight in my Mark III. Although I have tried to maintain good airspeed control to stay out of the flutter regime, it happened twice more, in both ailerons. After the last ime, I grounded the aircraft until I could get the counter balances installed. I was doing a general condition inspection pior to the installation and found that each blade of the Warp Drive three blade prop had a divot in the forward surface that aligned quite nicely with the left flap bell crank. The paint on the aft most point of the bell crank was missing, too. That afternoon I ordered plans from the factory and over the days I waited for them to arrive I began to wonder if this was becoming a chicken and egg mystery. Did the prop hit the flap bell crank and with that rythmic beat excite the aileron into flutter, or did the flutter cause the bell crank to contact the prop? There appears to be adequate clearance, about an inch, between the bell crank and the prop when checking it statically, however, checking the plans shows that the bell cranks have been installed improperly, and are rotated about 15 degrees past vertical toward the rear. More checking of the plans revealed that the engine mount is built upside down in a cross between the 582 and 618 design. Rather than a single motor mount plate that bolts to the engine and the engine's vibration isolaters, it is composed of two plates, front and rear, carrying the isolaters atop which are two 2" square tube risers, running fore and aft. Studs going through the risers attach the engine to the mount plates. There are no inserts or spacers to keep the studs from squeezing the tubes (architectural tubing that has no radius in the corners, I might add), but a square, 1/4" thick spacer serves to spread the load of the engine to the vertical walls of the tubes. Clear as mud, right? So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons and how they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the ailerons, here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the Warp Drive prop and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace it entirely with an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in flight adjustable hub at a later date. If you are flying one of these props, I'd like to hear your recommendation and insight. -- Rick Girard "Pining for a home on the Range" ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:46 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Adventures in flutter From: "John Jung" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: > So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons and how they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the ailerons, here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the Warp Drive prop and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace it entirely with an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in flight adjustable hub at a later date. If you are flying one of these props, I'd like to hear your recommendation and insight. > Rick Girard Rick, Unless the Warp is contacting the bellcranks within an inch of the tips, or has too much damage, I would not change props. It appears to me that the prop is not the problem, and by changing the prop, you may make the problem worse or at least fail to fix it. I suggest that you fix the bellcranks, if you can, as well as the counterweights. I couldn't tell from your description if there is or isn't a problem with the motor mount. It sound like some that I have seen on Mark III's, and unless the bolts are not keeping soom tension, there may be no problem. -------- John Jung Firestar II N6163J Surprise, AZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26583#26583 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:56 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Another Porcupine Kolb (thanks John H., I like the name) tak From: "John Jung" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" John B, Thanks for taking the time to share what you learned about VG's. I found it very interesting. As more of us follow the lead of the VG pioneers on the list, and report results, we all stand to learn. As much as I like my Firestar II, one disappointment was the 40 mph stall and the lack of ability to fly with friends in Quicksilvers. Even my original Firestar had a 35 mph stall, and could not fly with slower ultralights. Now, with VG's and a 30 mph stall, I can fly with ultralights again. -------- John Jung Firestar II N6163J Surprise, AZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26597#26597 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:42 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Adventures in flutter --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" John, I guess I left it without saying that I fixed the problem with the bell crank installation before I did anything else. As for the prop, it's beyond my comfort zone to fly with a prop that has visible damage, so the question to Mark III, 582 flyers remains, which do you prefer, the Warp drive, Ivo, or the GSC prop? On 4/5/06, John Jung wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Jung" > > > jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: > > So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons > and how they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the > ailerons, here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the > Warp Drive prop and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace it > entirely with an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in > flight adjustable hub at a later date. If you are flying one of these props, > I'd like to hear your recommendation and insight. > > Rick Girard > > > Rick, > > Unless the Warp is contacting the bellcranks within an inch of the tips, > or has too much damage, I would not change props. It appears to me that the > prop is not the problem, and by changing the prop, you may make the problem > worse or at least fail to fix it. I suggest that you fix the bellcranks, if > you can, as well as the counterweights. I couldn't tell from your > description if there is or isn't a problem with the motor mount. It sound > like some that I have seen on Mark III's, and unless the bolts are not > keeping soom tension, there may be no problem. > > -------- > John Jung > Firestar II N6163J > Surprise, AZ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D26583#26583 > > -- Rick Girard "Pining for a home on the Range" ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:40 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Adventures in flutter --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike I am at a loss to understand why you need the 2" risers - I am running a 582 with a 68" Ivo & B box, and all I needed was a 1 3/8" spacer to get enough clearance. Also, I have a 2.5 inch spacer between the Rotax prop flange and the prop, which gives me 5" of clearance between the flap bellcrank and the prop. I am of the opinion that 1" of clearance between the prop blade and the bellcrank is not nearly enough, even considering the stiffness of the Warp Drive. A good dose of turbulence and a bit of gyroscopic precession of the prop, or one of my landings would be all it would take to get rid of all of that 1" of clearance, plus a bit more. I have seen the 2" square tube risers that you describe, and they strike me as a poor design. I obtained a 6" length of 1.25 aluminum dowel and took it to a machine shop and had it cut on a lathe to 1&3/8" lengths, and then bored on the lathe so the bolts would go straight down the middle. That gives a solid block of aluminum between the Lord mounts and the engine motor mounts, and is probably sufficient for anything you could sit up there, much less a lowly 582. There are some views of it on the bottom of this page here: http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg2.htm It is possible that there is an interaction between the flaps, ailerons and the prop. With the prop passing so closely to the flap torque rod, which is attached to the aileron torque rod, it is not impossible that you could get a harmonic. Which is yet another reason to get an extension and move the prop back another 2.5 inches away from the wing. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Richard Girard wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" > > As I mentioned in an earlier post, I encounered flutter in the left aileron > at about 75 mph on my fifth flight in my Mark III. Although I have tried to > maintain good airspeed control to stay out of the flutter regime, it > happened twice more, in both ailerons. After the last ime, I grounded the > aircraft until I could get the counter balances installed. I was doing a > general condition inspection pior to the installation and found that each > blade of the Warp Drive three blade prop had a divot in the forward surface > that aligned quite nicely with the left flap bell crank. The paint on the > aft most point of the bell crank was missing, too. That afternoon I ordered > plans from the factory and over the days I waited for them to arrive I began > to wonder if this was becoming a chicken and egg mystery. Did the prop hit > the flap bell crank and with that rythmic beat excite the aileron into > flutter, or did the flutter cause the bell crank to contact the prop? There > appears to be adequate clearance, about an inch, between the bell crank and > the prop when checking it statically, however, checking the plans shows that > the bell cranks have been installed improperly, and are rotated about 15 > degrees past vertical toward the rear. > More checking of the plans revealed that the engine mount is built upside > down in a cross between the 582 and 618 design. Rather than a single motor > mount plate that bolts to the engine and the engine's vibration isolaters, > it is composed of two plates, front and rear, carrying the isolaters atop > which are two 2" square tube risers, running fore and aft. Studs going > through the risers attach the engine to the mount plates. There are no > inserts or spacers to keep the studs from squeezing the tubes (architectural > tubing that has no radius in the corners, I might add), but a square, 1/4" > thick spacer serves to spread the load of the engine to the vertical walls > of the tubes. Clear as mud, right? > So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons and > how they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the > ailerons, here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the > Warp Drive prop and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace it > entirely with an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in > flight adjustable hub at a later date. If you are flying one of these props, > I'd like to hear your recommendation and insight. > > -- > Rick Girard > "Pining for a home on the Range" > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:58 AM PST US From: pollus Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Instrument Markings --> Kolb-List message posted by: pollus Hi Dave "Geschwindigkeit" is speed "Klappen" = flaps "Mindes" = minimum I would be glad to translate it into dutch... Do not archive! Op 5-apr-2006, om 2:40 heeft Dave & Eve Pelletier het volgende geschreven: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" > > > Pollus, > > Thanks, I now have to get out my conversion charts to see what > they are > in mph, but that will be fun to do. But ok, ok, what is a > "klappenwhatchamacallit" and a "Mindesgesthingy"? > > Dave > > Do Not Archive > > >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: pollus >> >> Hi Dave >> >> The flight handbook I got with my MK3C states (in german) >> >> V(NE) = 145 km/h (= 78 knots) Zulassigge Hochstgeschwindigkeit >> V(A) = 110 km/h (= 59 knots) Manovergeschwindigkeit >> V(F) = 100 km/h (= 54 knots) Max Klappengeschwindigkeit >> V(S) = 65 km/h @400 kg and flaps 30 degrees (= 35 knots) >> Mindestgeschwindigkeit >> >> So far this language course. I did the km/h to knots calculation >> myself so you might want to double check the numbers. >> >> Greetings from Holland >> Pollus >> >> >> >> >> Op 3-apr-2006, om 21:59 heeft Dave & Eve Pelletier het volgende >> geschreven: >> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" >>> >>> >>> Kolbers, >>> >>> I have an older MK III Classic and I'm in the process of >>> marking my instruments for an airworthiness inspection but I don't >>> know what the max Flaps Extend (Vfe) speed and the normal operating >>> (Vsi to Vno) range (Green Band) should be. Vsi is 42 for my >>> plane. HELP! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> AzDave >>> >>> Do Not Archive >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:56 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: sneaky wind ... pic From: "planecrazzzy" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" Why don't you post the picture here ? .. .. Gotta Fly... Mike in MN / N381PM .. .. .. -------- I can only make One person HAPPY each day, Today's just NOT your day.... Tomorrow doesn't look good either ! .. .. .. .. .Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26645#26645 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:06 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Adventures in flutter --> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com Rick if you install an IVO prop you will get a 2 3/4 inch spacer that will help you with your problem with the prop running close to the linkeage I run an IVO and I like it very much Ellery in Maine do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:12 PM PST US From: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Adventures in flutter --> Kolb-List message posted by: Earl & Mim Zimmerman ElleryWeld@aol.com wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com > > Rick > if you install an IVO prop you will get a 2 3/4 inch spacer that will help > you with your problem with the prop running close to the linkeage I run an IVO > and I like it very much > > Ellery in Maine > > do not archive > I agree with Ellery. I would go with a two blade 68" IVO. ~ Earl ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:25 PM PST US From: Flycrazy8@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: sneaky wind ... pic --> Kolb-List message posted by: Flycrazy8@aol.com --> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" Why don't you post the picture here ? .. .. Gotta Fly... Mike in MN / N381PM Hey Gotta Fly Mike The picture I have of the Kolb over is not that clear and doesn't transfer well to the list. Sent you a copy for your own obsevation and will do likewise to any other fellow kolber on request . Gotta GO Stephen Bama Firefly Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:51 PM PST US From: Mike Schnabel Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke adventure --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Schnabel BB, I must be a late comer, i can not see this video at all... has it been taken off site already? Mike S Firestar2 503 Manchester TN do not archive Larry Bourne wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" Pheee-eeeewwww ! ! ! Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk III N78LB Vamoose www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert bean" Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:25 AM Subject: Kolb-List: 2 stroke adventure > --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean > > Morning guys, here's a video for your aviation-related entertainment. > > > > -BB do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: sneaky wind ... pic From: "Possum" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Possum" I got one for you. Flipped big time, but had someone in it. No major harm done. Made T-Shirts from this Picture and took to S & F. Had to get it down with a small crane/wrecker. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26692#26692 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/nice_landing_197.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/nice_landing_102.jpg