Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:06 AM - Rivet removal question (DrHook)
2. 05:52 AM - Re: Rivet removal question (robert bean)
3. 05:59 AM - Re: Rivet removal question (Larry Bourne)
4. 06:31 AM - Re: 2 stroke adventure (Steve Garvelink)
5. 07:00 AM - Re: Rivet removal question (John Cooley)
6. 07:57 AM - Re: 2 stroke adventure (russ kinne)
7. 09:25 AM - Prop clearance with bell crank (Jason Omelchuck)
8. 09:54 AM - Re: Prop clearance with bell crank (robert bean)
9. 10:00 AM - Re: Photos and Falcons (pat ladd)
10. 10:11 AM - Adventures in flutter (boyd)
11. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: 2 stroke adventure (Mike Schnabel)
12. 10:35 AM - Re: Rivet removal question (duncanmcbride@comcast.net)
13. 04:31 PM - Re: Photos and Falcons (Larry Bourne)
14. 05:03 PM - Re: Rivet removal question (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
15. 06:36 PM - Further adventures in flutter (Richard Girard)
16. 06:57 PM - Re: Adventures in flutter (Denny Rowe)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Rivet removal question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "DrHook" <csgale@yahoo.com>
I am doing a re-cover job on my firestar want to know if I should try and remove
all the rivets that are used for the fabric tape on the ribs.
My question is should I leave them in, and just cover over them?
By leaving them in, I would have to put more on the new tape and it might compromise
the strenght of the ribs.
By removing them, there will be rivet peices stuck in the middle of the ribs aluminum
tubing.
I am leaning on removing and using the same holes to re-rivet the fabric tape.
Anyone have suggestions or have done a re-cover?
Also I found this rivet removing tool at Aircraft Spruce. Is this tool a must have?
or can I just use a 1/8" drill and remove them?
Here is the link to the tool. Anyone use it?
Thanks in Advance, Chris
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/rivetremoval.php
--------
Kolb Firestar owner, Rebuild-Recover job at hand.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26708#26708
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet removal question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Drill them out and reuse the same holes. No problem.
All old Kolbs have rivet ends in them. Except for when handling the
wings
for removal, etc, you will never notice them.
-BB
On 6, Apr 2006, at 8:03 AM, DrHook wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "DrHook" <csgale@yahoo.com>
>
> I am doing a re-cover job on my firestar want to know if I should try
> and remove all the rivets that are used for the fabric tape on the
> ribs.
> My question is should I leave them in, and just cover over them?
> By leaving them in, I would have to put more on the new tape and it
> might compromise the strenght of the ribs.
> By removing them, there will be rivet peices stuck in the middle of
> the ribs aluminum tubing.
> I am leaning on removing and using the same holes to re-rivet the
> fabric tape.
> Anyone have suggestions or have done a re-cover?
> Also I found this rivet removing tool at Aircraft Spruce. Is this tool
> a must have? or can I just use a 1/8" drill and remove them?
> Here is the link to the tool. Anyone use it?
> Thanks in Advance, Chris
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/rivetremoval.php
>
> --------
> Kolb Firestar owner, Rebuild-Recover job at hand.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26708#26708
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet removal question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I wouldn't leave them in. Drilling them out with a 1/8" drill will work
fine, but the rivets will tend to spin, and enlarge the hole a bit. John
Hauck built a tool to stop this that works very well. As I recall, he took
a piece of a hacksaw blade and ground the teeth off a section, then cut a
"V" in the end. Sharpen the V on one side, so that you can press it under
the head of the rivet and apply pressure while you drill. Be very careful
with *every* single rivet, so the bit doesn't jump and mar the aluminum.
Use light pressure, and a new, sharp drill bit. I think I remember this
correctly - some one else who isn't at SnF might remember a link to a
picture of it, or it may be in the archives. I also like to use a sharp
pointed snap punch to knock the broken stub out of each rivet before
drilling them. Makes it much quicker and more accurate.
Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "DrHook" <csgale@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 5:03 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Rivet removal question
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "DrHook" <csgale@yahoo.com>
>
> I am doing a re-cover job on my firestar want to know if I should try and
> remove all the rivets that are used for the fabric tape on the ribs.
> My question is should I leave them in, and just cover over
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke adventure |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink" <link@cdc.net>
Mike, the video is still there at http://nhexecutivecouncil.com/media-head/aerial/vid.engineout.htm you will need to have the latest quicktime video installed to see it. It is a rather large file if you are having trouble downloading it send me your snail mail address and I will send you a copy on a cd.
Steve Garvelink
kolb us
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26722#26722
Message 5
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| Subject: | Rivet removal question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Cooley" <johnc@datasync.com>
Hi Gang and DrHook,
Just drill the old ones out. The aluminum fabric rivets don't spin nearly as
bad as the old steel or especially the ss rivets. The ss ones can be a real
pain in the butt. I have also recovered a Kolb and this is what I did with
no problems. Matter of fact, flew that very plane yesterday. First time I've
been up in a possum's....errr coon's age. Sorry Possum, have a hard time
differentiating between coons and possums.
Later,
John Cooley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bourne
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rivet removal question
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I wouldn't leave them in. Drilling them out with a 1/8" drill will work
fine, but the rivets will tend to spin, and enlarge the hole a bit. John
Hauck built a tool to stop this that works very well. As I recall, he took
a piece of a hacksaw blade and ground the teeth off a section, then cut a
"V" in the end. Sharpen the V on one side, so that you can press it under
the head of the rivet and apply pressure while you drill. Be very careful
with *every* single rivet, so the bit doesn't jump and mar the aluminum.
Use light pressure, and a new, sharp drill bit. I think I remember this
correctly - some one else who isn't at SnF might remember a link to a
picture of it, or it may be in the archives. I also like to use a sharp
pointed snap punch to knock the broken stub out of each rivet before
drilling them. Makes it much quicker and more accurate.
Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "DrHook" <csgale@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 5:03 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Rivet removal question
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "DrHook" <csgale@yahoo.com>
>
> I am doing a re-cover job on my firestar want to know if I should try and
> remove all the rivets that are used for the fabric tape on the ribs.
> My question is should I leave them in, and just cover over
--
--
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke adventure |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne <kinnepix@earthlink.net>
Me neither!
Russ K
do not archive
On Apr 5, 2006, at 10:46 PM, Mike Schnabel wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Schnabel <tnfirestar2@yahoo.com>
>
> BB,
>
> I must be a late comer, i can not see this video at all... has it
> been taken off site already?
>
> Mike S
> Firestar2 503
> Manchester TN
>
> do not archive
>
> Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne"
>
> Pheee-eeeewwww ! ! ! Do not Archive.
>
> Larry Bourne
> Palm Springs, CA
> Building Kolb Mk III
> N78LB Vamoose
> www.gogittum.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "robert bean"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:25 AM
> Subject: Kolb-List: 2 stroke adventure
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean
>>
>> Morning guys, here's a video for your aviation-related entertainment.
>>
>>
>>
>> -BB do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Prop clearance with bell crank |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jason Omelchuck" <jason@trek-tech.com>
I know that IVO says in the info they provide that there must be at least
5" clearance between the prop and trailing edge. In the MKIII plans I have
they show the flap bell crank angled to the rear (for best mechanical
advantage over the range of motion), but I believe I read some place that
you can put it straight down if you need more prop clearance.
Jason Omelchuck
MKIII
BMW R100
2 months to lift off
passed my Sport Pilot check ride yesterday (in a J3)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Prop clearance with bell crank |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Congrats on the check ride! The J3 is a perfect trainer for a Mk3
do not archive
On 6, Apr 2006, at 12:38 PM, Jason Omelchuck wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jason Omelchuck"
> <jason@trek-tech.com>
>
> I know that IVO says in the info they provide that there must be at
> least
> 5" clearance between the prop and trailing edge. In the MKIII plans I
> have
> they show the flap bell crank angled to the rear (for best mechanical
> advantage over the range of motion), but I believe I read some place
> that
> you can put it straight down if you need more prop clearance.
>
> Jason Omelchuck
> MKIII
> BMW R100
> 2 months to lift off
> passed my Sport Pilot check ride yesterday (in a J3)
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Photos and Falcons |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Hi John,
super pics of the falcon.
re the hovering flight. When I was in the army and wasting time in the gun
pit I used to sit on the tracker and watch the hawks.
The tracker consisted of two telescopes with very, very high quality lenses
with which we were supposed to pick up the enemy planes when they were
handed on from the radar .
The scopes had cross hairs embedded in them and what amazed me that you
could pick up a hovering hawk and pin it on the crosshairs and it would stay
absolutely on the spot. No matter how the wind blew the hawk compensated for
it automatically.
Clever stuff.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 10
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| Subject: | Adventures in flutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" <by0ung@brigham.net>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons and
how they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the
ailerons, here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the
Warp Drive prop and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace it
entirely with an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in
flight adjustable hub at a later date. If you are flying one of these props,
I'd like to hear your recommendation and insight.
--
Rick Girard
"Pining for a home on the Range"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In my opinion.
At this point I am not sure I would take apart the bellclranks,,,, what I
think I would do is install a prop spacer, 3 inch or so. the prop
spacer would eliminate the interference fit and also give you a boost in
performance. By putting the prop further from the disturbed air. It will
also make it a bit quieter. I would then install the counter weights in the
ailerons.
I would not use the ivo prop as it is more flexable and would cause the
prop strike problem to be worse. Also the flight adjustable hub is best
served in an aircraft that flies much faster than the kolb will go. As to
the 66 or 68 inch prop it would depend on the engine and gear ratio. With
the speeds that the kolbs fly the 68 would be better if your engine and gear
ratio will support it.
Boyd Young
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke adventure |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Schnabel <tnfirestar2@yahoo.com>
Steve,
Thank you for the link, it worked perfectly. Robert had sent me a link as well
that worked also. I have 3MB cable, so speed was not the issue. I am not sure
why the original link failed me.
I found this video clip very interesting, and well produced. Its always a great
help to know how others react to events like this, that we all hope never occur.
But, it behoves us all to be prepared, for this type of thing to happen.
I am no different, my very first flight around the patch in my then (semi) new
Sorrell Hyperlight lasted about 2 minutes, then the engine failed. Luckly for
me, i was still making patterns around the grass airfield i left from, and made
a very smooth landing. I was even complimented by some spectators as to how
cool i dropped it... rolled the plane right up to the hanger as a matter of
fact. Not until i explained what happened, the engine quit, did they realize they
had just witnessed an emergency landing. And on my maiden voyage with that
craft! You can rest assured, i was giving much praise to my flight instructor,
Ray Houge, who was sure to focus on the task of unintended landings while i
gained instruction to fly my little biplane.
That was in 1987, the Hyperlight touted a less than reliabe 277 Rotax. I worried
about those engines for many years... and now have one again. This time, a
503, i sure hope to not repeat that experience again, but you can be sure, i
will practice dead stick landings as soon as i get this bird in the air.
Mike S
Firestar2 503
Manchester TN
do not archive
Steve Garvelink <link@cdc.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steve Garvelink"
Mike, the video is still there at http://nhexecutivecouncil.com/media-head/aerial/vid.engineout.htm you will need to have the latest quicktime video installed to see it. It is a rather large file if you are having trouble downloading it send me your snail mail address and I will send you a copy on a cd.
Steve Garvelink
kolb us
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26722#26722
---------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet removal question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: duncanmcbride@comcast.net
Those are aluminum rivets and should drill out very easily. With a sharp new bit,
you can drill at a slight angle to keep it from spinning and they should only
take a moment to drill through.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne"
>
> I wouldn't leave them in. Drilling them out with a 1/8" drill will work
> fine, but the rivets will tend to spin, and enlarge the hole a bit. John
> Hauck built a tool to stop this that works very well. As I recall, he took
> a piece of a hacksaw blade and ground the teeth off a section, then cut a
> "V" in the end. Sharpen the V on one side, so that you can press it under
> the head of the rivet and apply pressure while you drill. Be very careful
> with *every* single rivet, so the bit doesn't jump and mar the aluminum.
> Use light pressure, and a new, sharp drill bit. I think I remember this
> correctly - some one else who isn't at SnF might remember a link to a
> picture of it, or it may be in the archives. I also like to use a sharp
> pointed snap punch to knock the broken stub out of each rivet before
> drilling them. Makes it much quicker and more accurate.
> Lar.
>
> Larry Bourne
> Palm Springs, CA
> Building Kolb Mk III
> N78LB Vamoose
> www.gogittum.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DrHook"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 5:03 AM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Rivet removal question
>
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "DrHook"
> >
> > I am doing a re-cover job on my firestar want to know if I should try and
> > remove all the rivets that are used for the fabric tape on the ribs.
> > My question is should I leave them in, and just cover over
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Those are aluminum rivets and should drill out very easily. With a sharp new bit,
you can drill at a slight angle to keep it from spinning and they should only
take a moment to drill through.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Larry Bourne" biglar@gogittum.com
-- Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <BIGLAR@GOGITTUM.COM>
I wouldn't leave them in. Drilling them out with a 1/8" drill will work
fine, but the rivets will tend to spin, and enlarge the hole a bit. John
Hauck built a tool to stop this that works very well. As I recall, he took
a piece of a hacksaw blade and ground the teeth off a section, then cut a
"V" in the end. Sharpen the V on one side, so that you can press it under
the head of the rivet and apply pressure while you drill. Be very careful
with *every* single rivet, so the bit doesn't jump and mar the aluminum.
Use light pressure, and a new, sharp drill bit. I think I remember this
correctly - some one else who isn't at S
nF might remember a link to a
picture of it, or it may be in the archives. I also like to use a sharp
pointed snap punch to knock the broken stub out of each rivet before
drilling them. Makes it much quicker and more accurate.
Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "DrHook" <CSGALE@YAHOO.COM>
To: <KOLB-LIST@MATRONICS.COM>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 5:03 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Rivet removal question
-- Kolb-List message posted by: "DrHook" <CSGALE@YAHOO.COM>
I am doing a re-cover job on my firestar want to know if I should try and
remove all the rivets that are used for the fabric tape on the ribs.
My question is should I leave them in, and just cover over
&
gt;
_-
============================================================
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Photos and Falcons |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Yah, those hawks have a perty good on-board computer working for 'em.
Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Photos and Falcons
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> Hi John,
> super pics of the falcon.
>
> re the hovering flight. When I was in the army and wasting time in the
> gun
> pit I used to sit on the tracker and watch the hawks.
> The tracker consisted of two telescopes with very, very high quality
> lenses
> with which we were supposed to pick up the enemy planes when they were
> handed on from the radar .
> The scopes had cross hairs embedded in them and what amazed me that you
> could pick up a hovering hawk and pin it on the crosshairs and it would
> stay
> absolutely on the spot. No matter how the wind blew the hawk compensated
> for
> it automatically.
> Clever stuff.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
> do not archive
>
>
> --
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet removal question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com
You can just use a 1/8 inch drill to remove the rivits and take the leading
edge or the trailing edge tube off and get the pieces out of the ribs or
another option it to send them to the end of the ribs and squirt a small ammount
of
epoxy in to hold them from raddling around inside
I wouldnt concider covering over them it wouldnt look to good on a finished
wing
you can cash this in for what its worth [just some other options] for you
Ellery in Rebuilt Firestar
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Further adventures in flutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy@gmail.com>
First, thanks to all of you who replied to my request for info.
As of tonight the flap bell cranks have been rotated to their correct, per
plans location and reattached. There is now almost three inches clearance
between them and the prop. The pushrods for the flaps have been shortened to
accomodate the new bell crank location. The aileron counter balances have
been installed. All that is left is to install the pushrods, adjust their
length, and go do a test flight.
I believe the Warp Drive prop will be fine for a test flight but after that
it has to go. Interesting that for $30 more than the cost of three new
blades and a protractor to set them, I can get a complete new prop. The old
one will go to eBay for any airboat drivers who'd like a deal. For those of
you who asked, I do not consider the prop airworthy for anything but testing
and I won't allow it to go on another aircraft. If it doesn't sell on eBay,
it'll make a nice conversation piece for the hangar wall.
The local electric company says they'll have the power on in my shop space
real soon now. Once my Bridgeport and engine lathe are back up and running,
I'll tackle the the engine mounting system, clean up the muffler mount
design and get everything back per plans.
The fun never stops..............
--
Rick Girard
"Pining for a home on the Range"
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Adventures in flutter |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl@highstream.net>
I agree on all points with Boyd.
Denny Rowe,
Mk-3, 68 inch Powerfin
----- Original Message -----
From: "boyd" <by0ung@brigham.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Adventures in flutter
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" <by0ung@brigham.net>
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> So, with that back ground into the mechanics of the engine and ailerons
> and
> how they may, or may not, be interacting to create the flutter in the
> ailerons, here's my question to the group. I can replace the blades in the
> Warp Drive prop and go back to a 66" prop, it's now 68", or I can replace
> it
> entirely with an IVO or a GSC. The IVO has the option of adding the in
> flight adjustable hub at a later date. If you are flying one of these
> props,
> I'd like to hear your recommendation and insight.
>
> --
> Rick Girard
> "Pining for a home on the Range"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> In my opinion.
>
> At this point I am not sure I would take apart the bellclranks,,,, what I
> think I would do is install a prop spacer, 3 inch or so. the prop
> spacer would eliminate the interference fit and also give you a boost in
> performance. By putting the prop further from the disturbed air. It will
> also make it a bit quieter. I would then install the counter weights in
> the
> ailerons.
>
>
> I would not use the ivo prop as it is more flexable and would cause the
> prop strike problem to be worse. Also the flight adjustable hub is best
> served in an aircraft that flies much faster than the kolb will go. As to
> the 66 or 68 inch prop it would depend on the engine and gear ratio.
> With
> the speeds that the kolbs fly the 68 would be better if your engine and
> gear
> ratio will support it.
>
> Boyd Young
>
>
> --
>
>
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