---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/11/06: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:32 AM - aluminum renforcing angles on the outboard ribs (DrHook) 2. 05:13 AM - Mk II for sale (Robert Bennethum) 3. 07:34 AM - galled threads (boyd) 4. 09:07 AM - Re: galled threads (Richard Pike) 5. 09:36 AM - Re: aluminum renforcing angles on the outboard ribs (JetPilot) 6. 09:57 AM - Re: Converting Five Rib Wing To 10 Ribs? (JetPilot) 7. 10:21 AM - Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 (jratcli256@aol.com) 8. 10:23 AM - Re: galled threads (Jack B. Hart) 9. 12:08 PM - Re: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 (Richard Girard) 10. 01:42 PM - Re: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 (John Hauck) 11. 02:07 PM - Re: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 12. 02:19 PM - Re: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 (John Hauck) 13. 03:50 PM - Re: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 (Richard Pike) 14. 04:26 PM - Re: galled threads (Larry Bourne) 15. 05:24 PM - Re: galled threads (Steven Green) 16. 07:07 PM - Re: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 (Richard Pike) 17. 07:58 PM - Trailering a Firestarll.......thumbs (Gary Thacker) 18. 10:20 PM - Re: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 (possums) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:48 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: aluminum renforcing angles on the outboard ribs From: "DrHook" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "DrHook" I am rebuilding the wingtips of the firestar, and will be using 3/8" tubing for all of the bracing, false rib, instead of the 5/16" and 1/4" Does anyone have any pics or suggestions from old archives, that show improvements, such as the aluminum renforcing angles on the outboard ribs etc. Thanks, Chris -------- Kolb Firestar owner, Rebuild-Recover job at hand. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27534#27534 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:43 AM PST US From: "Robert Bennethum" Subject: Kolb-List: Mk II for sale --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Robert Bennethum" I have this MK II on Barnstormers with pics. Last flown on Sunday. 2001 KOLB MK II . $11,000 . PRICE SLASHED . Fly Right Now! Only 51 hrs TT AF&E! This 2-place ultralight was a 1987 kit finished in 2001 and is a perfect candidate for Sport Pilot. Features: Rotax 503 SCSI, Wingtip Strobes, Azusa Wheels, Differential Brakes, No Damage History, Very Light - 350 lbs, Wings Fold For Easy Storage, Flies and Looks Great! Located Eastern Pa. . Contact Robert Bennethum III - located Lancaster, PA USA . Telephone: 717-519-7506 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:24 AM PST US From: "boyd" Subject: Kolb-List: galled threads --> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" Question have any of you had the coolant adapter that screws into the bottom of the heads leak? When I visited with LEAF I was told that he had not heard of it=85. But on my 912 I have had 2 of them leak, so I bought a tube of the locktite 648 and proceeded with removing them=85 I was also told that to get the locktite to let go to get the part out that I would have to get it to around 400 deg. I could turn these with my thumb and fingers cold=85.. anyway I removed the parts and cleaned the old locktite off them and proceeded to twist it into in order to check the fit and know how many turns it would take to reinstall it properly. Not being a tapered thread it turned in extremely easy, and it turned in 1 =BD more turns than it took to get it out. So while lining it back up to double check the turns I started to remove it when things went bad=85 the aluminum somehow got a all balled up and seized. The threads on the coolant adapter were destroyed and the first thread in the head is bad. If I put in a tap to clean out the threads and things go bad I may end up with a new head=85.. Big Question??? Does anyone know of a collapsible tap that can be inserted into the head, expanded out to fit the good threads in the bottom part of the hole and clean out the bad threads while removing the tap? I am not well versed in metric so the best I can tell you is I think it is a 18 mm size fitting with aprox 24 threads per inch=85 sorry I don=92t have a metric thread counter. Boyd Young Grounded mk III trying to get ready for MV ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:43 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: galled threads --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Years ago as a newbie in a Honda motorcycle shop, I cleaned some sealant off the threads of a large diameter aluminum Honda tappet cover which screwed into the aluminum head on a Honda Super 90. Forgot to reoil or lube anything and screwed the cover back into the head just like you did with your Rotax adapter. It seized and had to be destroyed to get it out of the head. I used a dental pick, and broke the tip off a triangular needle file to make the rest of the file into a tool to scrape and clean the threads in the head. But I was poor then, there is probably a better way, however the dental pick/tedious approach can be made to work. Make sure you can see clearly exactly what it is that you are doing, or don't do it. You may not have that option. And you will probably get a better suggestion than this one. Real moral to the story: degreasing or cleaning two aluminum parts and then screwing them together un-lubed is almost as good as welding them together. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) boyd wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" > > anyway I removed the parts and cleaned the old locktite off them and > proceeded to twist it So while lining it back up to double check the turns I started to remove it when things went bad. the aluminum somehow got a all balled up > and seized. The threads on the coolant adapter were destroyed and the first > thread in the head is bad. > > Boyd Young > Grounded mk III trying to get ready for MV > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:02 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: aluminum renforcing angles on the outboard ribs From: "JetPilot" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" Hi Chris, Really good move streingthening all those areas. It only adds a few pounds and adds a huge amount of streingth and stiffness. Here are some pictures of my MK 3 wing with the streingthening you talk about. John Hawk is also an expert on improving the streingth and stiffnes of the wings, he is the one I that suggested this to me. Dont forget to streingthen the wingtips also. There have been some cases where the weak tips start to flutter and are just very fragile all around. Hope this helps you out. Michael A. Bigelow -------- NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27592#27592 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00053_108.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00119_203.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:45 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Converting Five Rib Wing To 10 Ribs? From: "JetPilot" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" I really like the idea of douling the number of ribs in the wing. That will only add a few pounds and will make it a lot stronger. If more ribs becomes to daunting a task, streingthening the existing ribs is also a possibility. Attached are some pictures of my MK-III wing with rib streingthening. I would also suggest streingthening the wingtips while you are at it. There have been a few reports of wingtip flutter at high speeds, and also that is just a fragile area that gets a lot of abuse and handling. Streingthening that area is just a good idea. -------- NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27601#27601 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00055_120.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00053_169.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00119_151.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:00 AM PST US From: jratcli256@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 --> Kolb-List message posted by: jratcli256@aol.com Hi Fellow Kolbers, I'm new to the list. Received my kit about a month ago. Have followed the list for a couple of weeks now and picked up on a reference to the high sink rate of the Kolbs. I'm a low time pilot currently flying Cessna 172's and the Cherokee 180. Can power off land a 172 but require some power in the 180 due to the higher sink rate of this aircraft. My current understanding is that light aircraft would have a lower sink rate. Can some of you clarify this for me. Happy flying, John Ratcliffe jratcli256@aol.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:02 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: galled threads --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" At 08:32 AM 4/11/06 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" > >Question have any of you had the coolant adapter that screws into the >bottom of the heads leak? > .................... >Big Question??? Does anyone know of a collapsible tap that can be inserted >into the head, expanded out to fit the good threads in the bottom part of >the hole and clean out the bad threads while removing the tap? I am not >well versed in metric so the best I can tell you is I think it is a 18 mm >size fitting with aprox 24 threads per inch=85 sorry I don=92t have a metric >thread counter. > >Boyd Young > Grounded mk III trying to get ready for MV > Boyd, It looks like you need to insert a helicoil. The advantage of a helicoil is that you an tap out to a larger size, screw in the insert and use the original or replacement male threaded part. The advantage is that you do not have to throw away the heads. They are made from stainless steel so galling it not a problem. Check out McMasters at: http://www.mcmaster.com/ and put the words "helicoil" in the "Find" box. From there you should be able to find what you need. If you do not want to tackle this on your own, check out some motorcycle repair shops. They would probably do it for you and a reasonable cost. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:53 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" As a pilot transitioning to the Mark III, too, I can tell you why. Boatloads of drag from all the stuff hanging about in the breeze and a propeller disk that adds a second boatload. My advice, fly it like a 182 and carry power all the way to the deck. On 4/11/06, jratcli256@aol.com wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: jratcli256@aol.com > > Hi Fellow Kolbers, > > I'm new to the list. Received my kit about a month ago. > > Have followed the list for a couple of weeks now and picked up on a > reference to the high sink rate of the Kolbs. > > I'm a low time pilot currently flying Cessna 172's and the Cherokee 180. > Can power off land a 172 but require some power in the 180 due to the higher > sink rate of this aircraft. > > My current understanding is that light aircraft would have a lower sink > rate. > > Can some of you clarify this for me. > > Happy flying, > John Ratcliffe > jratcli256@aol.com > > -- Rick Girard "Pining for a home on the Range" ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:36 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" | | Happy flying, | John Ratcliffe High drag = high sink rate. Actually, it is a normal sink rate for a Kolb, for some of us that have been flying them for a while. What is normal for us is abnormal for "real" airplane pilots. Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:47 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" I also came from general aviation and wasn't prepared for the high sink rate of my MKIII. I bent my landing gear because of it. There is noting wrong with the way our Kolbs fly it's just not what you are used to. Like you have already been told keep the power up till you are a few inches above the ground. After you get very used to the flight chrematistics start landing with less and less power. Do not just decide to suddenly chop the power and drop all the flaps. Much later when you have lots of experience in your Kolb move into this mode. It is VERY impressive what can be done. Get someone like John Hauck demo this for you some time. Wow its a real kick, but the first time it will scare the shit out of you. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 > --> Kolb-List message posted by: jratcli256@aol.com > > Hi Fellow Kolbers, > > I'm new to the list. Received my kit about a month ago. > > Have followed the list for a couple of weeks now and picked up on a > reference to the high sink rate of the Kolbs. > > I'm a low time pilot currently flying Cessna 172's and the Cherokee 180. > Can power off land a 172 but require some power in the 180 due to the > higher sink rate of this aircraft. > > My current understanding is that light aircraft would have a lower sink > rate. > > Can some of you clarify this for me. > > Happy flying, > John Ratcliffe > jratcli256@aol.com > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:02 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Wow its a real kick, but the | first time it will scare the shit out of you. | | Rick Neilsen Rick: I like that comment!!! hehehe ;-) Laughing out loud to myself. john h DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:19 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Sink rate in Kolbs is not all that bad. Dead stick, about 500 fpm. On a thermal-ly day, you can soar. Difference is that you have more drag, and less weight, which means less inertia. Especially in the flare, where drag goes up in any event. And in a Kolb you usually have an engine with a geared prop, which means when you pull it back to idle at flare, the prop turns into a air brake. Which all added up, means that if you try and land it like a Cessna, and flare and chop the power at a Cessna-typical landing position, you will sit there and watch your airspeed indicator sweep rapidly counterclockwise as the airplane quickly decelerates and falls out of the flare. And bends the gear. And all of this is totally normal for airplanes with high drag and an empty weight of less than 600 pounds. Not just Kolbs. Carry a little power until just before touch down. Just enough to give a tad more than zero thrust. Until JUST BEFORE touchdown. As in 18" or less. And you will do fine, because the touch of power will make it feel/act like what you are used to. Then work on landing it without power and you will be able to get into some really short fields. And in about twenty hours, you will fall in love. PS: Do not use flaps for the first ten hours. They increase all the above drag factors manyfold. Kolb flaps are great, but very powerful in terms of killing airspeed, ease into them gently. Once you learn & know Kolb flaps, then you will know why I say this... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) jratcli256@aol.com wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: jratcli256@aol.com > > Hi Fellow Kolbers, > > I'm new to the list. Received my kit about a month ago. > > Have followed the list for a couple of weeks now and picked up on a reference to the high sink rate of the Kolbs. > > I'm a low time pilot currently flying Cessna 172's and the Cherokee 180. Can power off land a 172 but require some power in the 180 due to the higher sink rate of this aircraft. > > My current understanding is that light aircraft would have a lower sink rate. > > Can some of you clarify this for me. > > Happy flying, > John Ratcliffe > jratcli256@aol.com > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:35 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: galled threads --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" The helicoil is a great idea, and I've had excellent results with them in many applications. Just to keep the record straight, tho', stainless to stainless will gall just as badly as aluminum to aluminum, if not worse. You MUST lubricate those threads. Been there, done that, and done my share of cussing over it. Lar. Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk III N78LB Vamoose www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart" Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: galled threads > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" > > > At 08:32 AM 4/11/06 -0600, you wrote: >>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" >> >>Question have any of you had the coolant adapter that screws into the >>bottom of the heads leak? >> > .................... >>Big Question??? Does anyone know of a collapsible tap that can be >>inserted >>into the head, expanded out to fit the good threads in the bottom part of >>the hole and clean out the bad threads while removing the tap? I am >>not >>well versed in metric so the best I can tell you is I think it is a 18 mm >>size fitting with aprox 24 threads per inch=85 sorry I don=92t have a >>metric >>thread counter. >> >>Boyd Young >> Grounded mk III trying to get ready for MV >> > > Boyd, > > It looks like you need to insert a helicoil. The advantage of a helicoil > is > that you an tap out to a larger size, screw in the insert and use the > original or replacement male threaded part. The advantage is that you do > not have to throw away the heads. They are made from stainless steel so > galling it not a problem. > > Check out McMasters at: > > http://www.mcmaster.com/ > > and put the words "helicoil" in the "Find" box. From there you should be > able to find what you need. > > If you do not want to tackle this on your own, check out some motorcycle > repair shops. They would probably do it for you and a reasonable cost. > > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:45 PM PST US From: "Steven Green" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: galled threads --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Steven Green" Boyd, If it is just the last thread or two it should be salvagable. Richard's method may be a little slow but will give good results. As for the metric threads they are measured peak to peak so 24 per inch would be real close to 2mm pitch. 18 X 2 Steven I am not well versed in metric so the best I can tell you is I think it is a 18 mm > size fitting with aprox 24 threads per inch=85 sorry I don=92t have a metric > thread counter. > > Boyd Young > Grounded mk III trying to get ready for MV > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:07 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Non-Kolb musings follow- This thread got me thinking about the mid-70's when I was an Air Traffic Controller in Albany Georgia, at the time when the North American Rockwell factory there was converting the Thrush agplane to the PT6 turbine engine. A little background: Albany was built during WWII, it had a triangle of runways, 4/22, 16/34 and 9/27. The control tower sat in the middle of the airport, 9/27 was closed and the controller access was from the north, we had to cross closed 9/27 to get to the tower. Rockwell had their factory on the west side of the field (this was before Ayers bought it, as it is now) and they had three test pilots, who all had FAA assigned call signs, ToughBird 2, ToughBird 3, and ToughBird 6. It was a sort of laid-back place to work, one day we had ToughBird 6 working several miles east of the airport, and the wind had picked up out of the west. Like about 270 at 35. He called inbound, and we gave him the wind and asked him if he wanted 23 or 34. He told us "I know you guys can't clear me to land on 27, because it's a closed runway, but if you'll just separate me from your other traffic, and tell me "approved as requested," I'll get stopped before the place on 27 where you guys cross to go to lunch so I don't hit the your chief, and we'll all be happy." I did. It was that sort of airport... (And for those of you that don't know the details of ATC regs, that is perfectly legal. You just have to know what to ask for, and how to phrase it...) The Thrush had had a P&W radial on it since forever, and when Rockwell started out modifying the Thrush by putting a P&W PT6 engine on it (like the King Air's use) the test pilots were all excited trying to see what it would do. The radials came in 600 HP & 850 HP versions, and one day two of the test pilots requested a formation takeoff. One was in a 850 radial Thrush, the other one had the PT6 on it. And what it was really, was a drag race. First one to 1,000' AGL won. The TurboThrush won. About a week later, ToughBird 3 requested an "unusual" approach to 34. (And this is where it gets sort-of Kolb related, since this thread is about sink rates and approaches.) He was about 800' AGL, almost over the approach end of the runway, and he was planning to pull the prop back into Beta, and see how short of an approach and landing he could make. Any Kolb would have been proud to claim what happened next. He pitched over almost vertical and came down at about a vertical dive, in slow motion, rounded out and rolled about the length of the numbers, and stopped. He said it was the last time he would ever try that, because the airplane shook and rattled and sounded really bad, and felt really strange, but the company had decided that if they didn't try it, some peanut farmer would, and it would be better if the company knew ahead of time how things would turn out... do not archive Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Richard Girard wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" > > As a pilot transitioning to the Mark III, too, I can tell you why. Boatloads > of drag from all the stuff hanging about in the breeze and a propeller disk > that adds a second boatload. My advice, fly it like a 182 and carry power > all the way to the deck. > > On 4/11/06, jratcli256@aol.com wrote: > >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: jratcli256@aol.com >> >> Hi Fellow Kolbers, >> >> I'm new to the list. Received my kit about a month ago. >> >> Have followed the list for a couple of weeks now and picked up on a >> reference to the high sink rate of the Kolbs. >> >> I'm a low time pilot currently flying Cessna 172's and the Cherokee 180. >> Can power off land a 172 but require some power in the 180 due to the higher >> sink rate of this aircraft. >> >> My current understanding is that light aircraft would have a lower sink >> rate. >> >> Can some of you clarify this for me. >> >> Happy flying, >> John Ratcliffe >> jratcli256@aol.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Rick Girard > "Pining for a home on the Range" > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:04 PM PST US From: "Gary Thacker" Subject: Kolb-List: Trailering a Firestarll.......thumbs --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Gary Thacker" Well it looks like I have to move and need a trailer to transport my Firestar ll to my new home, about 300 miles away. and about 30 miles each way to the new field once I get there. Can anyone point me toward a reasonably priced trailer? Thanks for the help Gary Souderton,Pa. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:15 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums At 10:03 PM 4/11/2006, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > >Non-Kolb musings follow- > >This thread got me thinking about the mid-70's when I was an Air Traffic >Controller in Albany Georgia, at the time when the North American >Rockwell factory there was converting the Thrush agplane to the PT6 >turbine engine. (And for those of you that don't know the details of ATC regs, that is perfectly legal. You just have to know what to ask for, and how to phrase it...) ------------------------- He is exactly right ..have to know what to ask for, and how to phrase it. When for some strange reason you're out of gas and you have to ask for permission to land because of engine failure. Well............it failed, didn't it? (really, you're out of gas at 11,000 ft five miles north of the field) It is really hard to explain that the ETA is about 15 minutes.