Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:22 AM - Re: Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story (Terry Swartz)
2. 05:07 AM - Re: soldering (George Alexander)
3. 05:54 AM - Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story (Larry Bourne)
4. 05:54 AM - Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story (Larry Bourne)
5. 06:36 AM - Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story (John Russell)
6. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: soldering (Larry Bourne)
7. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: soldering (John Hauck)
8. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: soldering (Jack B. Hart)
9. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: soldering (HShack@AOL.COM)
10. 09:10 AM - Cable Slap (boyd)
11. 09:10 AM - Drill Dilemma (boyd)
12. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: soldering (ray anderson)
13. 09:53 AM - test (Robert Noyer)
14. 09:56 AM - Re: Re: soldering (George E. Myers Jr.)
15. 10:08 AM - test (Robert Noyer)
16. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: soldering (George E. Myers Jr.)
17. 12:40 PM - Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story (jadamson)
18. 05:34 PM - Update on Drill Dilemma (Larry Bourne)
19. 06:36 PM - Drilling out broken dowel (Richard Girard)
20. 07:04 PM - Re: Drilling out broken dowel (Larry Bourne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Terry Swartz" <terry@juliaswartz.com>
Larry
If you can't use heat maybe you could try cold. Get some liquid nitrogen, it
boils at -325F degrees. Sounds dangerous but really isn't. I used to
distribute bull semen for artificial insemination of cows and we used liquid
nitrogen by the gallons. We bought it at the local welding supply where they
sell oxygen and acetylene and transported it vacuum insulated storage tanks.
For very small quantities you could use a thermos, vacuum insulated type,
preferably stainless steel, but the glass type will work for transporting.
You will have to use it right away as it will boil away in about 24 hours.
Chilling the pin may be the challenge. I removed all warts from family and
friends by dipping a drift punch in the nitrogen until it was chilled, then
holding the punch on a wart for just a few seconds until frozen. The warts
then fell of in a couple days. This process may work for you. I've used it
for other press fit applications and it worked very well. Liquid nitrogen
can be dipped with a plastic pitcher and poured but it will be boiling
continuously in the pitcher. Of course avoid contact with skin or you will
have instant frost bite. I don't recall the price, maybe $1.00 per gallon.
Another source would be your local artificial inseminator, check yellow
pages. Your local welding supply may not be interested in filling a thermos.
Good luck
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of biglar
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:05 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "biglar" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Nope, the broken piece is in the crankshaft, and, thankfully, I was careful
and didn't break off a drill bit. I tried heating the 1st one I pulled, but
didn't notice any difference, and don't really like to heat that component.
I'm not crazy about Lowe's myself, but figured brands like Bosch, DeWalt,
etc., would be the same in any store. I like the welding shop idea, I'll
try it tomorrow. Thanks.
Lar.
--------
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Alexander" <gtalexander@att.net>
MAY BE A DUPLICATE RESPONSE... but anyway
Although nico sleeves weren't involved, from a personal experience, I would like
to support what Ted said about heating the cable.
In my case, the throttle cable was heated and solder applied to keep it from slipping
through the connector to the throttle lever. The good news is that it
snapped, on the ground, as part of my regular preflight. (Open the throttle to
full and close it listening for the infamous "click" of the slides as they return
home. They certainly clicked this time when the cable let go and they went
home in a hurry!)
On examination, there was noticeable discoloration from the point that was soldered,
back about 1". The general consensus, of those that examined it, was that
the break was caused by the effect on the cable of the heat application. (The
failure may have been accelerated by the humid conditions here in FL.) The
cable actually rusted through. Miffed that I didn't see the rust before it
broke. Some of the discoloration/rust protruded from the connector enough to
be seen. Conceptually a good idea, with not so good results.
tc1917(at)hughes.net wrote:
> I would like to add something to the 'solder the end of the cable to keep it
> from slipping through the nico' discussion.
>
> If you heat a steel/SS cable even to solder it, it seems to lose its ability
to flex and will become brittle and break upon bending.
--------
George Alexander
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=31051#31051
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I didn't, and can't use my drill press. The engine is on the plane. That
drill bit yesterday walked right into it........for a while, so I know it's
possible................?? I'm familiar with, and did try, the slow speed,
high pressure idea. Thanks. Lar. Do not
Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:25:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> biglar@gogittum.com writes:
>
> Now, the big question - what can I use to drill that =
> pin out of there ??
>
>
> Larry,
>
> I read about a method, somewhere a long time ago, that will permit one to
> drill through hard material, even spring steel. The trick is to use a
> VERY
> slow drill speed, along with VERY high pressure. Using a drill press
> would be
> the best way, but if that is not possible, perhaps you could enlist the
> help
> of some beefy friends to assist you in using a handheld drill motor.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Bill Varnes
> Original Kolb FireStar
> Audubon NJ
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Yah, this crank was drilled for 8, but 4 were drilled and tapped for 3/8
fine thread for the cap screws. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <DAquaNut@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 4/26/2006 9:25:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> biglar@gogittum.com writes:
>
> Only after installing the Speedi-Sleeve did that leak dry up and stop =
> masking this 2nd one. What a raging pain in the neck........but at =
> least I've got a solution in sight now - if I can get that 4th dowel pin
> =
> out of there. Lar.=20
>
> Larry Bourne
>
>
> Lar,
> Seems I remember In my dune buggy building days we drilled the crank for
> a
> total of 8 dowel pins. Maybe that would help your situation??? Hope you
> get
> it solved.
>
> Ed Do Not Archive
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: John Russell <jr@rometool.com>
Being an ole Tool maker, many times I have used this method to remove
hardened broken dowel pins and even bolts.....use a short piece of steel
tubing, alittle less in diameter than the dowel or screw, position the
end of the tubing on the broken dowel and using a stick welder and a
small welding rod, reach through the tubing with the welding rod and
puddle weld the tube to the dowel and walah, most of the time anyway.
Larry Bourne wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
>
> Yah, this crank was drilled for 8, but 4 were drilled and tapped for 3/8
> fine thread for the cap screws. Lar.
>
> Larry Bourne
> Palm Springs, CA
> Building Kolb Mk III
> N78LB Vamoose
> www.gogittum.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <DAquaNut@aol.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story
>
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: DAquaNut@aol.com
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 4/26/2006 9:25:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>> biglar@gogittum.com writes:
>>
>> Only after installing the Speedi-Sleeve did that leak dry up and stop =
>> masking this 2nd one. What a raging pain in the neck........but at =
>> least I've got a solution in sight now - if I can get that 4th dowel pin
>> =
>> out of there. Lar.=20
>>
>> Larry Bourne
>>
>>
>> Lar,
>> Seems I remember In my dune buggy building days we drilled the crank for
>> a
>> total of 8 dowel pins. Maybe that would help your situation??? Hope you
>> get
>> it solved.
>>
>> Ed Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I'm coming into this late, and don't want to step on any toes, but I've had
considerable experience with soldering, and some with cables. Here's a few
thoughts.............
As Chief Engineer of the hotel I work at, an un-enviable part of my job is
to teach others some of my skills, one of which is soft soldering. (I also
teach them silver soldering and gas welding, but that's another ulcer
building story)
Soft solder melts easily, at something around (I think) 500 F., just barely
enuf to make the metal change color. Almost without exception, even with
practise, almost everyone will heat the metal too much. Far too much. My
guys drive me crazy with this. They'll burn the flux almost every time,
even with me telling them, "Enuf, Enuf ! ! !" Practise on copper tubing.
Steel wool, wire brush, or emery cloth it till shiny - both male and female
surfaces. ALL surface contaminants MUST be removed. Coat the surfaces
lightly with a flux. Heat the joint gently with a propane or mapp torch in
the area you want the solder to flow to. It will flow TO the heat. As the
area warms up, start scratching the surface with the solder stick. Soon it
will start to leave streaks of silver on the surface. Just a little more,
and the solder will suddenly flow into the joint. STOP HEATING at this
point. A little more - repeat, a little more - heat and solder will smooth
and fill the joint. If the flux turns black, you got it too hot and you
will NOT make the solder stick. It'll just make beads. Take it apart and
start over.
OK, wire..........much tougher, but do-able. I've found it best to
carefully unwrap the strands and clean them with a solvent, even steel wool
them, re-wrap them, then flux and solder. Great care must be taken, since
individual wires will heat almost instantly and others won't. Some will
glow red hot quickly, and then won't take the solder. I've done this
successfully - sometimes - on motorcycle cables, and other times not. Many
factory cables are (or at least were, in my day) soldered. Would I trust
this on my airplane ?? Nope. Too iffy for my skill level. Properly done,
yah, probably. Once again, almost everyone uses far too much heat, which is
what ruins the cable. Take it easy. Clean parts are everything.
When I was a logger, we'd make up choker cables on the spot by sliding the
bell over the cable, then inserting a tapered, fluted steel wedge into the
end of the cable to spread the strands. Then smack the bell over the spread
strands at the end and they were locked solid. Strong ?? Yah, they'd take
the slam of a D6 Cat hitting the end of them when hooked to a tree to be
skidded to a landing, and do it repeatedly, day after day. Do they make
small enuf bells and wedges to fit these small cables ?? I dunno. Never
seen one, but a fairly handy person may be able to make one. Maybe solder
it in ?? :-) Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Alexander" <gtalexander@att.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 5:06 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: soldering
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Alexander" <gtalexander@att.net>
>
> MAY BE A DUPLICATE RESPONSE... but anyway
>
>
> Although nico sleeves weren't involved, from a personal experience, I
> would like to support what Ted said about heating the cable.
>
> In my case, the throttle cable was heated and solder applied to keep it
> from slipping through the connector to the throttle lever. The good news
> is that it snapped, on the ground, as part of my regular preflight. (Open
> the throttle to full and close it listening for the infamous "click" of
> the slides as they return home. They certainly clicked this time when the
> cable let go and they went home in a hurry!)
>
> On examination, there was noticeable discoloration from the point that was
> soldered, back about 1". The general consensus, of those that examined
> it, was that the break was caused by the effect on the cable of the heat
> application. (The failure may have been accelerated by the humid
> conditions here in FL.) The cable actually rusted through.
Message 7
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
I've had extremely good luck with the throttle cables that come with
Kolb Kits. Never had to solder one.
KISS (keep it simple)
Message 8
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
Kolbers,
I have had good luck with tandem bicycle de railer cables. The are super
long, inexpensive, and can be found with a Teflon coating. I believe they
are a little smaller in diameter than the Kolb throttle cables. You have to
reduce the diameter of the lead bead so that it will fit into the throttle
slide. It may be possible to drill out the retaining hole to accept the
non-modified bead.
I have had more problems with the other end. I clip them off square and try
to not frazzle them. Then I use a soldering iron and rosin core solder to
solder the cut end cable strands together. After this is done, I wick a
drop of crazy glue up next to the soldered end. This stabilizes the cut end
so that one can pull the cable for cleaning and re-lubrication, and
re-insert the cable with little trouble. Before I did this, the frazzled
end made it very difficult the thread the cable from the engine to the
throttle and to get the end in the small clevis hole.
I believe using an iron helps with heat control so that you do not over heat
the cable. I do not believe one should use acid flux, as it likes moisture
and will keep eating away at the metal over a period of time.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 4/27/2006 8:08:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gtalexander@att.net writes:
On examination, there was noticeable discoloration from the point that was
soldered, back about 1". The general consensus, of those that examined it, was
that the break was caused by the effect on the cable of the heat application.
(The failure may have been accelerated by the humid conditions here in FL.)
The cable actually rusted through. Miffed that I didn't see the rust before
it broke. Some of the discoloration/rust protruded from the connector enough
to be seen. Conceptually a good idea, with not so good results.
No expert here, but to solder the cable, you may apply flux or use acid core
solder. When the cable is heated, the flux migrates up the cable. That acid
or flux is corrosive to steel.
Perhaps if rosin core solder was used.....
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
Message 10
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" <by0ung@brigham.net>
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vic Peters" <vicsvinyl@verizon.net>
How about 4 not too bouncy rubber balls cut part way through, slipped over
the cables, glued back together and slid down the tube. If they caught on
something you would still be able to pull the cable through without much
effort.
Any comments?
Vic
MKIIIX
N40KX Reserved
912 ul
Do not archive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That would work but I would worry that if any moisture got trapped within
the ball that it could cause some corrosion on the cable.. I think I would
rather see some high density foam slid down the tube under the cables. Or
maybe a donut shape foam and surround the cables. or live with the noise.
Boyd Y
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "boyd" <by0ung@brigham.net>
.....but at =
least I've got a solution in sight now - if I can get that 4th dowel pin =
out of there. Lar.=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would try and find a diamond bit and put it in a dremel I am sure the
material is so hard that you wont be able to thread it. You could take
the diamond bit and slowly enlarge the hole to the edge of the pin and then
collapse the pin and pull it out. If you could get a small mist of water,
or even rubbing alcohol you could keep the bit and piece you are working on
cool.
As to the locktite, red or blue should work on the bolts. As to going
from 6 to 12 bolts,,, would 6, inch dowel pins and 6 AN bolts be
stronger in sheer than the 12 AN bolts. You may need to check the charts
on sheer for the AN bolds vs. the dowel pins. Unless you feel you need more
tension in addition to the additional sheer. For setting the dowel pins
the green locktite 648 was listed for setting press fit parts.
Boyd Y
Message 12
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
In my humble opinion, one should NEVER use any flux on the cables except resin.
At the same time, with me a big no-no is never heat them with a torch, but a
medium heat soldering iron. I have soldered many cable ends, and other sensitive
wires,etc. using this combination. Then when finished, brush the area with
alcohol. Have never seen any change in strength or evidence of corrosion.
Ray
UltraStar Tenn.
Do not archive
HShack@aol.com wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: HShack@aol.com
In a message dated 4/27/2006 8:08:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gtalexander@att.net writes:
On examination, there was noticeable discoloration from the point that was
soldered, back about 1". The general consensus, of those that examined it, was
that the break was caused by the effect on the cable of the heat application.
(The failure may have been accelerated by the humid conditions here in FL.)
The cable actually rusted through. Miffed that I didn't see the rust before
it broke. Some of the discoloration/rust protruded from the connector enough
to be seen. Conceptually a good idea, with not so good results.
No expert here, but to solder the cable, you may apply flux or use acid core
solder. When the cable is heated, the flux migrates up the cable. That acid
or flux is corrosive to steel.
Perhaps if rosin core solder was used.....
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
Message 13
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
hello, test 1, 2, 3,
regards,
Bob N.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
Message 14
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George E. Myers Jr." <gmyers@grandecom.net>
=0D
=0D
>end of the cable to spread the strands. Then smack the bell over the
spread=0D
>strands at the end and they were locked solid. Strong ?? Yah, they'd t=
ake=0D
=0D
Use a soldering iron. The kind that goes on a propane torch works great.
Keep the flame small & the iron clean & tinned. Use only resin for flux.
Have the cable ends secured in an upright condition & slightly spread. Wi=
pe
a very small amount of flux on the ends. Put the solder on the tip & let =
the
solder heat the strands. Don't touch them with the iron. The solder will
heat & tin the strands. Apply the solder to the iron, not the cable. Clea=
n
thoroughly with alcohol then rub in grease. woiks liika charm.=0D
George
Message 15
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
test3
regards,
Bob N.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
Message 16
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George E. Myers Jr." <gmyers@grandecom.net>
maybe this is easier to read
>end of the cable to spread the strands. Then smack the bell over the spread
>strands at the end and they were locked solid. Strong ?? Yah, they'd take
Use a soldering iron. The kind that goes on a propane torch works great.
Keep the flame small & the iron clean & tinned. Use only resin for flux.
Have the cable ends secured in an upright condition & slightly spread. Wipe
a very small amount of flux on the ends. Put the solder on the tip & let the
solder heat the strands. Don't touch them with the iron. The solder will
heat & tin the strands. Apply the solder to the iron, not the cable. Clean
thoroughly with alcohol then rub in grease. woiks liika charm.
George
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Drill Dilemma - Long Winded Story |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "jadamson" <j-adamson@tamu.edu>
jr(at)rometool.com wrote:
> .....use a short piece of steel
> tubing, alittle less in diameter than the dowel or screw, position the
> end of the tubing on the broken dowel and using a stick welder and a
> small welding rod, reach through the tubing with the welding rod and
> puddle weld the tube to the dowel and ...
>
> ---
Now that's clever! Really adds a nice refinement to the welding idea, especially
when the break is down in the threads.
John A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=31182#31182
Message 18
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| Subject: | Update on Drill Dilemma |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Thanks to everybody for your thoughts and suggestions. I talked to a =
welder today and he's going to come by Sat. morning to weld the slide =
hammer rod to the broken dowel. Tonight, when I got home from work I =
lit up my small oxy/acetylene outfit and heated that dowel red hot and =
let it cool naturally. Hoped it'd take some of the hardness out and =
leave it annealed. Nope. No difference, just ruined another bit, so =
I'll wait for the welder.
Rick, I agree with you. There's no question that concern, even =
subconsciously, about the safety of that drive has been a part of my =
foot-dragging. (could laziness be another ??) In any case, I'm waiting =
for some parts, so it should be back together next week sometime and =
I'll run it up again. If I have more problems with it, it'll go in the =
trash. As you say, there comes a time.......even for people like =
Stub-Bourne to call 'er a day and move on. BTW, originally the idea was =
that the little bit of slack in the chain would bell out at speed and =
give a measure of shock absorption. Prob'ly not, but we'll see. =
Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | Drilling out broken dowel |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy@gmail.com>
Larry, Have you tried a carbide tipped masonry drill? If your pilot hole is
centered, a 1/4" bit sounds like the ticket. I've used them to drill out
high speed steel broken taps. Dowel pins are tough because they're inductio=
n
case hardened. After you get through the first .030" or so they're soft
underneath. sounds like your very near breaking though.
Incidentally, my experience is that Bosch drills are junk. I went through
four of them trying to drill out a single steel pop rivet. I went back to
Lowe's (closest to the hangar) got a Hitachi bit and drilled out over 20
rivets and it was still going strong.
--
Rick Girard
"Pining for a home on the Range"
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Drilling out broken dowel |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Thanks, Richard. Already tried the Hitachi, and no joy. Do
not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
N78LB Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 6:32 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Drilling out broken dowel
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy@gmail.com>
>
> Larry, Have you tried a carbide tipped masonry drill? If your pilot hole
> is
> centered, a 1/4" bit sounds like the ticket. I've used them to drill out
> high speed steel broken taps. Dowel pins are tough because they're
> inductio=
> n
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