Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:43 AM - Re: Weather aka what lifts a wing? (pat ladd)
2. 02:47 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Beauford)
3. 03:09 AM - Re: Re: Weather..To fly or not to fly T.I.T.Q. (pat ladd)
4. 05:12 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Eugene Zimmerman)
5. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Eugene Zimmerman)
6. 06:59 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
7. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Richard Pike)
8. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
9. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (John Hauck)
10. 08:41 AM - Re: Rotax Relapse (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
11. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (David Lehman)
12. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (David Lehman)
13. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (jhauck@elmore.rr.com)
14. 09:53 AM - New Respect for the Challenger (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
15. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (robert bean)
16. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
17. 11:38 AM - Re: Weather aka what lifts a wing? (Ed Chmielewski)
18. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (John Hauck)
19. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (ElleryWeld@AOL.COM)
20. 08:34 PM - Re: Weather aka What lifts a wing? (Carlos)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Weather aka what lifts a wing? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Here are three more that are still active:>>
Hi Bob,
No they ain`t. Only the first URL worked. The second connects to some
Eskimo page and the Washigton one is u/s.
As it happens there is an article re Bernoulli and Newton in the `FLYER`
magazine delivered yesterday so I haven`t absorbed it all yet but it seems
from a cursory glance that BOTH theorems are valid.
As usual there are specific conditions laid down. SMOOTH airflow, less than
.4 Mach for instance.
The `flat plate` argument much employed in our recent discussions about
airflow around tail feather is not as simple as I thought, although I am not
convinced that I was completely wrong. It all hinges apparently on the
Stagnation Line. This is the imaginary line where the air flowing over the
top surface separates from the air going underneath. When the tailplane is
aligned straight into the airflow there are equal quantities of air going
over and under and no lift is generated. When the front edge of the
tailplane is lifted the Stagnation Point moves slightly under and back from
its leading edge. The air going OVER the surface then has slightly farther
to go and we are then back with the familiar pressure drop etc.
I think my brain is full.
Thanks Bob
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" <beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
Thanks, Brother Sullivan...
Excellent C.P.S. material and I'll sure save it...
No, the 447 now has the same Ducatti electronic ignition as the 503...
but it
only has one of them.
I'll give you a follow-up report later today... this ought to be
interesting... if it
kills me, George Alexander gets my Timex.
Regards,
Beauford
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "possums" <possums@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 2:08 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums@mindspring.com>
>
> At 08:57 PM 5/4/2006, you wrote:
> >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford"
<beauford@tampabay.rr.com>
> > Of course that was before the new pistons and rings...
> >they could
> >well be a tad tighter than original, even though they were
carefully
> >fitted by
> >the pros... If tightness is a factor, they should loosen up
gradually
> >and the temps
> >should come down.
>
> I'll quote some old articles on the 447:
>
> When the CHT runs hot and the EGT gauge is normal.
>
> A lack of lubrication will only show on the "CHT gauge."
> This condition will not be indicted by an EGT gauge.
> Nor will the lack of cooling air caused by a slipping fan belt
> or partial blockage of the intake opening.
> The EGT gauge will, however, indicate an air leak or lean
> mixture long before the CHT gauge.
> Piston and rings tighter than specs, of course,
> will only show on the CHT.
> These articles also talk about "preignition" and timing showing
> both gages running hotter.
> Are they still putting point ignitions on the 447's ?
> That is one of the reasons I switched to the 503.
> Sully
>
> http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part12.pdf
>
> http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part38.pdf
>
> http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part24.pdf
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Weather..To fly or not to fly T.I.T.Q. |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
. Check out the following link for average winds>>
Hi there,
watch out for those averages. I read somewhere that the Wright Bros picked
Kittyhawk on the basis of the average wind data supplied by the Weather
Bureau.
In fact they were often grounded by high winds.
Still they did alright. After all they flew just after the Frenchman Ader,
the New Zealander Pearse and the Englishman whose name I forget and I am
too idle to look up, who lived about 50 miles from me.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
On May 5, 2006, at 6:00 AM, Beauford wrote:
> if it
> kills me, George Alexander gets my Timex.
He deserves it . He is a good guy.
Hi Geo.
:-)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
On May 5, 2006, at 6:00 AM, Beauford wrote:
> I'll give you a follow-up report later today... this ought to be
> interesting..
I'd try a higher octane fuel, especially in your climate.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
Hey Richard
I don't want to get in the middle of any mud slinging but you could look at
a VW. The price would be comparable but I'm sorry you would have to live
with a bit more power if you bought the big engine.
Sorry I just couldn't resist.
Do not archive
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
> I bought a zero timed 582 with a new B box for $2800 from a
> Rotax factory authorized rebuild center.
> Please advise me of where I can get a 65 HP 4 stroke of similar weight
> for less than twice the price so I won't need to feel like an inferior
> idiot.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
Not to worry, I have enjoyed your posts for years and know that you are
not a slinger of mud.
Actually got very close to going to a VW with Valley reduction drive on
it for my MKIII, I was really impressed watching Valley's demonstrator
airplane several years ago at Oshkosh, may go that way when the 582
comes up for overhaul. Most of the time I have enough power, since I
usually fly solo. But carrying a passenger out of my short strip with
big power lines nearby - more power is a good thing.
2 considerations:
What do you figure your total powerplant weight is?
How quiet is it? My airstrip is right beside the subdivision, so my 582
has both after muffler and intake silencers on it, it is vital that I be
a quiet neighbor. Is the VW powersystem really quiet? Or just sort of
"Street legal but loud?" Because if it is not quiet, then I would have
to make it quiet, and that would probably be more weight.
Thanks,
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>
> Hey Richard
>
> I don't want to get in the middle of any mud slinging but you could look at
> a VW. The price would be comparable but I'm sorry you would have to live
> with a bit more power if you bought the big engine.
>
> Sorry I just couldn't resist.
>
> Do not archive
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
Richard
I really don't have a weight but I figure it is about 20lbs. more than a
Rotax 912. My VW uses the Valley redrive and isn't as smooth as I would
like. There are two gear redrives now available that will work on a VW and
hopefully they have some form of harmonic dampening. My redrive doesn't
other than the belt.
The noise I'm told is about like a GA airplane. Inside the cockpit it is
loud. I have a four into one exhaust system and it isn't too bad due to the
low RPMs. It doesn't scream like the high RPM VW dune buggy engines. Those
that fly their VWs with four short pipes make some real noise but my engine
noise is hard to tell from the prop noise. I had a motor cycle muffler on
the engine at one point. It was a baffled glass pack that blew the packing
after a few hours so it didn't contribute much to noise reduction. More
importantly I found it cut the power significantly so I don't use it any
more.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Pike" <richard@bcchapel.org>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
>
> Not to worry, I have enjoyed your posts for years and know that you are
> not a slinger of mud.
>
> Actually got very close to going to a VW with Valley reduction drive on
> it for my MKIII, I was really impressed watching Valley's demonstrator
> airplane several years ago at Oshkosh, may go that way when the 582
> comes up for overhaul. Most of the time I have enough power, since I
> usually fly solo. But carrying a passenger out of my short strip with
> big power lines nearby - more power is a good thing.
> 2 considerations:
> What do you figure your total powerplant weight is?
> How quiet is it? My airstrip is right beside the subdivision, so my 582
> has both after muffler and intake silencers on it, it is vital that I be
> a quiet neighbor. Is the VW powersystem really quiet? Or just sort of
> "Street legal but loud?" Because if it is not quiet, then I would have
> to make it quiet, and that would probably be more weight.
>
> Thanks,
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen"
>> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>>
>> Hey Richard
>>
>> I don't want to get in the middle of any mud slinging but you could look
>> at
>> a VW. The price would be comparable but I'm sorry you would have to live
>> with a bit more power if you bought the big engine.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
than a
| Rotax 912.
|
| The noise I'm told is about like a GA airplane.
|
| Rick Neilsen
Well........if we knew how much the all up weight was of a 912UL or
912ULS, added 20 lbs to it, we would know how much Rick's VW weighs.
Wonder how a 912ULS in an old 60's era VW Bug would react. Bet it
would be a screamer right out of the box.
What prop are you running on the VW, Rick?
If it is anything other than a good two blade fixed pitch wooden prop,
it is going to make a lot of racket, same, same our 912's with Warp
Drive Props.
What does Valley Redrive use for torsional vibration dampening?
Bet you would see good results with the 912ULS gear box with slip
clutch. I saw a lot of difference in vibration, during cruise
especially, after I had the slip clutch installed on my 912ULS.
Take care,
john h
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
<< Only a total idiot would not realize how far superior a 4 stroke is to a
2 stroke. Michael A. Bigelow >>
Geez, Mike - that's kind of a broad, inflammatory statement against many
folks on this List. Do you ever wonder why your posts are so often a source
of resentment amongst List members? There are more gracious ways to espouse
your own opinions than calling our 2-stroke pilots "total idiots."
Dennis Kirby
Do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
Well, I think I figured out where Rick's engine came from... This poor guy
had to re-engine his Bug...
DVD
do not archive
On 5/5/06, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> than a
>
> Well........if we knew how much the all up weight was of a 912UL or
> 912ULS, added 20 lbs to it, we would know how much Rick's VW weighs.
>
> Wonder how a 912ULS in an old 60's era VW Bug would react. Bet it
> would be a screamer right out of the box.
>
> What prop are you running on the VW, Rick?
>
> If it is anything other than a good two blade fixed pitch wooden prop,
> it is going to make a lot of racket, same, same our 912's with Warp
> Drive Props.
>
> What does Valley Redrive use for torsional vibration dampening?
>
> Bet you would see good results with the 912ULS gear box with slip
> clutch. I saw a lot of difference in vibration, during cruise
> especially, after I had the slip clutch installed on my 912ULS.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
See I screwed that one up...
Here's the link:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/c/a/2006/04/30/MNGJGII7BB=
1.DTL&type=3Dcars
On 5/5/06, David Lehman <david@davidlehman.net> wrote:
>
> Well, I think I figured out where Rick's engine came from... This poor
> guy had to re-engine his Bug...
>
> DVD
>
> do not archive
>
>
> On 5/5/06, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com >
> >
> > | I really don't have a weight but I figure it is about 20lbs. more
> > than a
> > | Rotax 912.
> > |
> > | The noise I'm told is about like a GA airplane.
> > |
> > | Rick Neilsen
> >
> > Well........if we knew how much the all up weight was of a 912UL or
> > 912ULS, added 20 lbs to it, we would know how much Rick's VW weighs.
> >
> > Wonder how a 912ULS in an old 60's era VW Bug would react. Bet it
> > would be a screamer right out of the box.
> >
> > What prop are you running on the VW, Rick?
> >
> > If it is anything other than a good two blade fixed pitch wooden prop,
> > it is going to make a lot of racket, same, same our 912's with Warp
> > Drive Props.
> >
> > What does Valley Redrive use for torsional vibration dampening?
> >
> > Bet you would see good results with the 912ULS gear box with slip
> > clutch. I saw a lot of difference in vibration, during cruise
> > especially, after I had the slip clutch installed on my 912ULS.
> >
> > Take care,
> >
> > john h
> >
> >
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jhauck@elmore.rr.com
> of resentment amongst List members? There are more gracious ways
> to espouse
> your own opinions than calling our 2-stroke pilots "total idiots."
> Dennis Kirby
Yep! I guess "2 stroke" pilots encompasses about 99% of the Kolb
List. I still fly them on occassion, when the opportunity arises.
john h
mkIII
Message 14
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| Subject: | New Respect for the Challenger |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
Kolb Friends -
Went flying yesterday in my Mark-3, with another fellow flying his
503-powered Challenger alongside, for some two-ship formation flying in the
local area. My first thoughts were that I would probably have to power WAY
back on my 912ul in order for him to keep up. Boy was I wrong!
Once at altitude, his Challenger (with two aboard) was keeping right up with
my Kolb. I was cruising at 5000 rpm, and indicating 65 mph at 8000' msl.
(According to my airspeed performance charts for that altitude and temp,
true airspeed was 75 mph.) My buddy was running his belt-drive 503 at 6000
rpm. Not surprisingly, his loaded Challenger did not have the climb rate as
a Kolb on takeoff. But the clean aerodynamics of the Challenger design
allowed him to maintain a respectable cruise speed, especially with only 53
hp.
Not saying I would ever want to trade in my Kolb for a Challenger, but ...
it did give me a revised opinion of that little aircraft.
I hereby promise never to scoff at Pat Ladd's airplane again!
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3, 912ul, PowerFin-72
New Mexico
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Hey, I run a 4 stroke and am only slightly impaired.........
-senility setting in v e r y s l o w l y
-BB do not archive
On 5, May 2006, at 11:41 AM, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL
> <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
>
> << Only a total idiot would not realize how far superior a 4 stroke is
> to a
> 2 stroke. Michael A. Bigelow >>
>
> Geez, Mike - that's kind of a broad, inflammatory statement against
> many
> folks on this List. Do you ever wonder why your posts are so often a
> source
> of resentment amongst List members? There are more gracious ways to
> espouse
> your own opinions than calling our 2-stroke pilots "total idiots."
> Dennis Kirby
>
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
John/all
I have a three blade 72 inch F model Powerfin prop that turns 2000 RPM at
cruise. The redrive I have has no harmonic dampening in it other than the
dampening the Kevlar belts allow and that isn't much. Yes a rotax redrive
(or one of the two copies that are available for the VW) would be a good
addition.
The slipper clutch you talk about. You say it helps at cruise? I ASSUMED
that it was a centrifugal clutch that would lock up at high RPMs. Tell me
more about how it works.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> than a
>
> Well........if we knew how much the all up weight was of a 912UL or
> 912ULS, added 20 lbs to it, we would know how much Rick's VW weighs.
>
> Wonder how a 912ULS in an old 60's era VW Bug would react. Bet it
> would be a screamer right out of the box.
>
> What prop are you running on the VW, Rick?
>
> If it is anything other than a good two blade fixed pitch wooden prop,
> it is going to make a lot of racket, same, same our 912's with Warp
> Drive Props.
>
> What does Valley Redrive use for torsional vibration dampening?
>
> Bet you would see good results with the 912ULS gear box with slip
> clutch. I saw a lot of difference in vibration, during cruise
> especially, after I had the slip clutch installed on my 912ULS.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Weather aka what lifts a wing? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
Hi Pat,
Don't tell my R/C foamie 'flat plate' planes about that Bernoulli
stuff. They'll all stop flying!
As for the 'greater distance' theory, the aerodynamics engineering
folks at UND took that to task over 20 years ago, as have others since.
Basically, there's nothing in physics that says the air molecules have to
'meet up' at the trailing edge.
My head is starting to hurt now, too.
Ed in JXN (MI)
MkII/503
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Weather aka what lifts a wing?
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> Here are three more that are still active:>>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
(Snip)
>
> The `flat plate` argument much employed in our recent discussions about
> airflow around tail feather is not as simple as I thought, although I am
> not
> convinced that I was completely wrong. It all hinges apparently on the
> Stagnation Line.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
> do not archive
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
ASSUMED
| that it was a centrifugal clutch that would lock up at high RPMs.
Tell me
| more about how it works.
|
| Rick Neilsen
No sir. One of those slipper clutches is the last thing I would want
to fly with on an airplane. They worked ok on my oldest brother's
Cushman motor scooter back in the 40's, and on my chain saw and weed
eater today. But don't think I want to go whizzing around in the air
with one.
Prior to the slipper clutch, the anti-torsional vibration dampening
was accomplished through a "dog and ramp" system under a lot of
pressure exerted by a number of very large domed spring washers. The
valleys, between the ramps were very narrow.
The slipper clutch uses a similar system with a few changes.
1-Valleys between ramps are much wider.
2-A multi-disk clutch pack which is spring loaded, is added to the
system. This clutch actually slips a little when necessary to assist
in dampening torsional vibration. Not only on start up and lower
speeds, but throughout the rpm range of the engine.
The slipper clutch works great. It needs to be inspected
periodically, like 400 to 500 hours. I need to fly down to Ronnie
Smith's and let him reshim mine to bring it back to specs if it has
loosened up enough to require the adjustment. Probably have to wait
until after MV before I will have time to get down there.
Hope this explain the difference between the slipper and the
centrifugal clutches.
john h
hauck's holler, alabama
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com
I also have over 330 hours on a 447 rotax 2 stroke in a firestar without a
glitch just my opinion but if you know enough about what you are running for an
engine and know how to keep it up to snuff then you will be happy with it for
a long time other than the loud noise these make I am very pleased with the
preformance of mine
on the other hand if you dont know what you are doing, then keep your paws
out of it and take it to someone who knows what it needs to get the longer life
out of it, and a properly adjusted prop is alot of the adjustment , I think
only worth what you paid for it
Ellery in a loud Firestar that has never missed a beat for 336 hrs and still
going strong
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Weather aka What lifts a wing? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Carlos" <grageda@innw.net>
Hi Guys & Gals,
Hmmm what makes a wing lift? I believe aerodynamics has nothing to do =
with it.=20
Cash is what makes a wing lift! No two ways about it, no money =3Dno =
flying.
Sad but true I'm sorry to say.
I have the receipts to prove it....
Best Regards
Carlos G.
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