---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/05/06: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:43 AM - Re: Weather aka what lifts a wing? (pat ladd) 2. 02:47 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Beauford) 3. 03:09 AM - Re: Re: Weather..To fly or not to fly T.I.T.Q. (pat ladd) 4. 05:12 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Eugene Zimmerman) 5. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Eugene Zimmerman) 6. 06:59 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 7. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Richard Pike) 8. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 9. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (John Hauck) 10. 08:41 AM - Re: Rotax Relapse (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL) 11. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (David Lehman) 12. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (David Lehman) 13. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (jhauck@elmore.rr.com) 14. 09:53 AM - New Respect for the Challenger (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL) 15. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (robert bean) 16. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 17. 11:38 AM - Re: Weather aka what lifts a wing? (Ed Chmielewski) 18. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise (John Hauck) 19. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (ElleryWeld@AOL.COM) 20. 08:34 PM - Re: Weather aka What lifts a wing? (Carlos) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:43:17 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Weather aka what lifts a wing? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" Here are three more that are still active:>> Hi Bob, No they ain`t. Only the first URL worked. The second connects to some Eskimo page and the Washigton one is u/s. As it happens there is an article re Bernoulli and Newton in the `FLYER` magazine delivered yesterday so I haven`t absorbed it all yet but it seems from a cursory glance that BOTH theorems are valid. As usual there are specific conditions laid down. SMOOTH airflow, less than .4 Mach for instance. The `flat plate` argument much employed in our recent discussions about airflow around tail feather is not as simple as I thought, although I am not convinced that I was completely wrong. It all hinges apparently on the Stagnation Line. This is the imaginary line where the air flowing over the top surface separates from the air going underneath. When the tailplane is aligned straight into the airflow there are equal quantities of air going over and under and no lift is generated. When the front edge of the tailplane is lifted the Stagnation Point moves slightly under and back from its leading edge. The air going OVER the surface then has slightly farther to go and we are then back with the familiar pressure drop etc. I think my brain is full. Thanks Bob Cheers Pat do not archive -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.3/331 - Release Date: 03/05/2006 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:44 AM PST US From: "Beauford" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" Thanks, Brother Sullivan... Excellent C.P.S. material and I'll sure save it... No, the 447 now has the same Ducatti electronic ignition as the 503... but it only has one of them. I'll give you a follow-up report later today... this ought to be interesting... if it kills me, George Alexander gets my Timex. Regards, Beauford Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "possums" Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 2:08 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse > --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums > > At 08:57 PM 5/4/2006, you wrote: > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford" > > Of course that was before the new pistons and rings... > >they could > >well be a tad tighter than original, even though they were carefully > >fitted by > >the pros... If tightness is a factor, they should loosen up gradually > >and the temps > >should come down. > > I'll quote some old articles on the 447: > > When the CHT runs hot and the EGT gauge is normal. > > A lack of lubrication will only show on the "CHT gauge." > This condition will not be indicted by an EGT gauge. > Nor will the lack of cooling air caused by a slipping fan belt > or partial blockage of the intake opening. > The EGT gauge will, however, indicate an air leak or lean > mixture long before the CHT gauge. > Piston and rings tighter than specs, of course, > will only show on the CHT. > These articles also talk about "preignition" and timing showing > both gages running hotter. > Are they still putting point ignitions on the 447's ? > That is one of the reasons I switched to the 503. > Sully > > http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part12.pdf > > http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part38.pdf > > http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part24.pdf > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:03 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Weather..To fly or not to fly T.I.T.Q. --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" . Check out the following link for average winds>> Hi there, watch out for those averages. I read somewhere that the Wright Bros picked Kittyhawk on the basis of the average wind data supplied by the Weather Bureau. In fact they were often grounded by high winds. Still they did alright. After all they flew just after the Frenchman Ader, the New Zealander Pearse and the Englishman whose name I forget and I am too idle to look up, who lived about 50 miles from me. Cheers Pat do not archive -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.3/331 - Release Date: 03/05/2006 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:08 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman On May 5, 2006, at 6:00 AM, Beauford wrote: > if it > kills me, George Alexander gets my Timex. He deserves it . He is a good guy. Hi Geo. :-) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:47 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman On May 5, 2006, at 6:00 AM, Beauford wrote: > I'll give you a follow-up report later today... this ought to be > interesting.. I'd try a higher octane fuel, especially in your climate. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:01 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Hey Richard I don't want to get in the middle of any mud slinging but you could look at a VW. The price would be comparable but I'm sorry you would have to live with a bit more power if you bought the big engine. Sorry I just couldn't resist. Do not archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Pike" Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 10:59 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > I bought a zero timed 582 with a new B box for $2800 from a > Rotax factory authorized rebuild center. > Please advise me of where I can get a 65 HP 4 stroke of similar weight > for less than twice the price so I won't need to feel like an inferior > idiot. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:53 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Not to worry, I have enjoyed your posts for years and know that you are not a slinger of mud. Actually got very close to going to a VW with Valley reduction drive on it for my MKIII, I was really impressed watching Valley's demonstrator airplane several years ago at Oshkosh, may go that way when the 582 comes up for overhaul. Most of the time I have enough power, since I usually fly solo. But carrying a passenger out of my short strip with big power lines nearby - more power is a good thing. 2 considerations: What do you figure your total powerplant weight is? How quiet is it? My airstrip is right beside the subdivision, so my 582 has both after muffler and intake silencers on it, it is vital that I be a quiet neighbor. Is the VW powersystem really quiet? Or just sort of "Street legal but loud?" Because if it is not quiet, then I would have to make it quiet, and that would probably be more weight. Thanks, Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" > > Hey Richard > > I don't want to get in the middle of any mud slinging but you could look at > a VW. The price would be comparable but I'm sorry you would have to live > with a bit more power if you bought the big engine. > > Sorry I just couldn't resist. > > Do not archive > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIc > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:59 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Richard I really don't have a weight but I figure it is about 20lbs. more than a Rotax 912. My VW uses the Valley redrive and isn't as smooth as I would like. There are two gear redrives now available that will work on a VW and hopefully they have some form of harmonic dampening. My redrive doesn't other than the belt. The noise I'm told is about like a GA airplane. Inside the cockpit it is loud. I have a four into one exhaust system and it isn't too bad due to the low RPMs. It doesn't scream like the high RPM VW dune buggy engines. Those that fly their VWs with four short pipes make some real noise but my engine noise is hard to tell from the prop noise. I had a motor cycle muffler on the engine at one point. It was a baffled glass pack that blew the packing after a few hours so it didn't contribute much to noise reduction. More importantly I found it cut the power significantly so I don't use it any more. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Pike" Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > Not to worry, I have enjoyed your posts for years and know that you are > not a slinger of mud. > > Actually got very close to going to a VW with Valley reduction drive on > it for my MKIII, I was really impressed watching Valley's demonstrator > airplane several years ago at Oshkosh, may go that way when the 582 > comes up for overhaul. Most of the time I have enough power, since I > usually fly solo. But carrying a passenger out of my short strip with > big power lines nearby - more power is a good thing. > 2 considerations: > What do you figure your total powerplant weight is? > How quiet is it? My airstrip is right beside the subdivision, so my 582 > has both after muffler and intake silencers on it, it is vital that I be > a quiet neighbor. Is the VW powersystem really quiet? Or just sort of > "Street legal but loud?" Because if it is not quiet, then I would have > to make it quiet, and that would probably be more weight. > > Thanks, > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" >> >> >> Hey Richard >> >> I don't want to get in the middle of any mud slinging but you could look >> at >> a VW. The price would be comparable but I'm sorry you would have to live >> with a bit more power if you bought the big engine. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:07 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" than a | Rotax 912. | | The noise I'm told is about like a GA airplane. | | Rick Neilsen Well........if we knew how much the all up weight was of a 912UL or 912ULS, added 20 lbs to it, we would know how much Rick's VW weighs. Wonder how a 912ULS in an old 60's era VW Bug would react. Bet it would be a screamer right out of the box. What prop are you running on the VW, Rick? If it is anything other than a good two blade fixed pitch wooden prop, it is going to make a lot of racket, same, same our 912's with Warp Drive Props. What does Valley Redrive use for torsional vibration dampening? Bet you would see good results with the 912ULS gear box with slip clutch. I saw a lot of difference in vibration, during cruise especially, after I had the slip clutch installed on my 912ULS. Take care, john h ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:36 AM PST US From: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL << Only a total idiot would not realize how far superior a 4 stroke is to a 2 stroke. Michael A. Bigelow >> Geez, Mike - that's kind of a broad, inflammatory statement against many folks on this List. Do you ever wonder why your posts are so often a source of resentment amongst List members? There are more gracious ways to espouse your own opinions than calling our 2-stroke pilots "total idiots." Dennis Kirby Do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:38 AM PST US From: "David Lehman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" Well, I think I figured out where Rick's engine came from... This poor guy had to re-engine his Bug... DVD do not archive On 5/5/06, John Hauck wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > than a > > Well........if we knew how much the all up weight was of a 912UL or > 912ULS, added 20 lbs to it, we would know how much Rick's VW weighs. > > Wonder how a 912ULS in an old 60's era VW Bug would react. Bet it > would be a screamer right out of the box. > > What prop are you running on the VW, Rick? > > If it is anything other than a good two blade fixed pitch wooden prop, > it is going to make a lot of racket, same, same our 912's with Warp > Drive Props. > > What does Valley Redrive use for torsional vibration dampening? > > Bet you would see good results with the 912ULS gear box with slip > clutch. I saw a lot of difference in vibration, during cruise > especially, after I had the slip clutch installed on my 912ULS. > > Take care, > > john h > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:18 AM PST US From: "David Lehman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lehman" See I screwed that one up... Here's the link: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/c/a/2006/04/30/MNGJGII7BB= 1.DTL&type=3Dcars On 5/5/06, David Lehman wrote: > > Well, I think I figured out where Rick's engine came from... This poor > guy had to re-engine his Bug... > > DVD > > do not archive > > > On 5/5/06, John Hauck wrote: > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > > > | I really don't have a weight but I figure it is about 20lbs. more > > than a > > | Rotax 912. > > | > > | The noise I'm told is about like a GA airplane. > > | > > | Rick Neilsen > > > > Well........if we knew how much the all up weight was of a 912UL or > > 912ULS, added 20 lbs to it, we would know how much Rick's VW weighs. > > > > Wonder how a 912ULS in an old 60's era VW Bug would react. Bet it > > would be a screamer right out of the box. > > > > What prop are you running on the VW, Rick? > > > > If it is anything other than a good two blade fixed pitch wooden prop, > > it is going to make a lot of racket, same, same our 912's with Warp > > Drive Props. > > > > What does Valley Redrive use for torsional vibration dampening? > > > > Bet you would see good results with the 912ULS gear box with slip > > clutch. I saw a lot of difference in vibration, during cruise > > especially, after I had the slip clutch installed on my 912ULS. > > > > Take care, > > > > john h > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:15 AM PST US From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: jhauck@elmore.rr.com > of resentment amongst List members? There are more gracious ways > to espouse > your own opinions than calling our 2-stroke pilots "total idiots." > Dennis Kirby Yep! I guess "2 stroke" pilots encompasses about 99% of the Kolb List. I still fly them on occassion, when the opportunity arises. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:57 AM PST US From: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL Subject: Kolb-List: New Respect for the Challenger --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL Kolb Friends - Went flying yesterday in my Mark-3, with another fellow flying his 503-powered Challenger alongside, for some two-ship formation flying in the local area. My first thoughts were that I would probably have to power WAY back on my 912ul in order for him to keep up. Boy was I wrong! Once at altitude, his Challenger (with two aboard) was keeping right up with my Kolb. I was cruising at 5000 rpm, and indicating 65 mph at 8000' msl. (According to my airspeed performance charts for that altitude and temp, true airspeed was 75 mph.) My buddy was running his belt-drive 503 at 6000 rpm. Not surprisingly, his loaded Challenger did not have the climb rate as a Kolb on takeoff. But the clean aerodynamics of the Challenger design allowed him to maintain a respectable cruise speed, especially with only 53 hp. Not saying I would ever want to trade in my Kolb for a Challenger, but ... it did give me a revised opinion of that little aircraft. I hereby promise never to scoff at Pat Ladd's airplane again! Dennis Kirby Mark-3, 912ul, PowerFin-72 New Mexico do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:45 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean Hey, I run a 4 stroke and am only slightly impaired......... -senility setting in v e r y s l o w l y -BB do not archive On 5, May 2006, at 11:41 AM, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL > > > << Only a total idiot would not realize how far superior a 4 stroke is > to a > 2 stroke. Michael A. Bigelow >> > > Geez, Mike - that's kind of a broad, inflammatory statement against > many > folks on this List. Do you ever wonder why your posts are so often a > source > of resentment amongst List members? There are more gracious ways to > espouse > your own opinions than calling our 2-stroke pilots "total idiots." > Dennis Kirby > > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:51 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" John/all I have a three blade 72 inch F model Powerfin prop that turns 2000 RPM at cruise. The redrive I have has no harmonic dampening in it other than the dampening the Kevlar belts allow and that isn't much. Yes a rotax redrive (or one of the two copies that are available for the VW) would be a good addition. The slipper clutch you talk about. You say it helps at cruise? I ASSUMED that it was a centrifugal clutch that would lock up at high RPMs. Tell me more about how it works. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 11:34 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > than a > > Well........if we knew how much the all up weight was of a 912UL or > 912ULS, added 20 lbs to it, we would know how much Rick's VW weighs. > > Wonder how a 912ULS in an old 60's era VW Bug would react. Bet it > would be a screamer right out of the box. > > What prop are you running on the VW, Rick? > > If it is anything other than a good two blade fixed pitch wooden prop, > it is going to make a lot of racket, same, same our 912's with Warp > Drive Props. > > What does Valley Redrive use for torsional vibration dampening? > > Bet you would see good results with the 912ULS gear box with slip > clutch. I saw a lot of difference in vibration, during cruise > especially, after I had the slip clutch installed on my 912ULS. > > Take care, > > john h > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:51 AM PST US From: "Ed Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Weather aka what lifts a wing? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ed Chmielewski" Hi Pat, Don't tell my R/C foamie 'flat plate' planes about that Bernoulli stuff. They'll all stop flying! As for the 'greater distance' theory, the aerodynamics engineering folks at UND took that to task over 20 years ago, as have others since. Basically, there's nothing in physics that says the air molecules have to 'meet up' at the trailing edge. My head is starting to hurt now, too. Ed in JXN (MI) MkII/503 Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "pat ladd" Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 5:32 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Weather aka what lifts a wing? > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" > > Here are three more that are still active:>> > > Hi Bob, > (Snip) > > The `flat plate` argument much employed in our recent discussions about > airflow around tail feather is not as simple as I thought, although I am > not > convinced that I was completely wrong. It all hinges apparently on the > Stagnation Line. > > Cheers > > Pat > > do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:29 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse/VW Weight and Noise --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" ASSUMED | that it was a centrifugal clutch that would lock up at high RPMs. Tell me | more about how it works. | | Rick Neilsen No sir. One of those slipper clutches is the last thing I would want to fly with on an airplane. They worked ok on my oldest brother's Cushman motor scooter back in the 40's, and on my chain saw and weed eater today. But don't think I want to go whizzing around in the air with one. Prior to the slipper clutch, the anti-torsional vibration dampening was accomplished through a "dog and ramp" system under a lot of pressure exerted by a number of very large domed spring washers. The valleys, between the ramps were very narrow. The slipper clutch uses a similar system with a few changes. 1-Valleys between ramps are much wider. 2-A multi-disk clutch pack which is spring loaded, is added to the system. This clutch actually slips a little when necessary to assist in dampening torsional vibration. Not only on start up and lower speeds, but throughout the rpm range of the engine. The slipper clutch works great. It needs to be inspected periodically, like 400 to 500 hours. I need to fly down to Ronnie Smith's and let him reshim mine to bring it back to specs if it has loosened up enough to require the adjustment. Probably have to wait until after MV before I will have time to get down there. Hope this explain the difference between the slipper and the centrifugal clutches. john h hauck's holler, alabama ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:33 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax Relapse --> Kolb-List message posted by: ElleryWeld@aol.com I also have over 330 hours on a 447 rotax 2 stroke in a firestar without a glitch just my opinion but if you know enough about what you are running for an engine and know how to keep it up to snuff then you will be happy with it for a long time other than the loud noise these make I am very pleased with the preformance of mine on the other hand if you dont know what you are doing, then keep your paws out of it and take it to someone who knows what it needs to get the longer life out of it, and a properly adjusted prop is alot of the adjustment , I think only worth what you paid for it Ellery in a loud Firestar that has never missed a beat for 336 hrs and still going strong do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:09 PM PST US From: "Carlos" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Weather aka What lifts a wing? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Carlos" Hi Guys & Gals, Hmmm what makes a wing lift? I believe aerodynamics has nothing to do = with it.=20 Cash is what makes a wing lift! No two ways about it, no money =3Dno = flying. Sad but true I'm sorry to say. I have the receipts to prove it.... Best Regards Carlos G.