Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:48 AM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (Vince Hallam)
2. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Eugene Zimmerman)
3. 05:57 AM - Re: Rotax Relapse (Eugene Zimmerman)
4. 07:15 AM - Re: symbols and numbers (pat ladd)
5. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Jack B. Hart)
6. 11:33 AM - Re: Rotax Relapse (George Alexander)
7. 01:53 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (pat ladd)
8. 01:59 PM - What training do I need? (DieselsRcool)
9. 03:21 PM - Doctored pic (Terry Frantz)
10. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: obit (russ kinne)
11. 03:24 PM - Re: What training do I need? (ray anderson)
12. 03:28 PM - Re: a stall between 2 fools (ray anderson)
13. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Relapse (Eugene Zimmerman)
14. 03:53 PM - Re: Rotax Relapse (Possum)
15. 06:34 PM - Re: What training do I need? (Larry Bourne)
16. 06:36 PM - Re: What training do I need? (J carter)
17. 07:55 PM - landing in the Oregon Outback! (Larry Cottrell)
18. 08:11 PM - Re: landing in the Oregon Outback! (John Hauck)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Vince Hallam" <vince@devonwindmills.co.uk>
.Pat,
I didnt reply to this because of spam prolems but now I have
read it again.I wasnt sure if you were pulling my and everyones leg.
But now I believe you may have at least one idea at variance
with my understanding.Particularlynabout the demise of the Flea.The list of
planes I gave you were all famously pitch unstable to some extent., and
would be able to runaway into a dive as the centre of pressure moved back so
far that the remaining pitch up authority of the controls was insufficient
the flea woud have its front wing cof p go to the trailing edge if reduced
to about zero angle of attack, speed would increase and the fixed lifting
tail would increase lift with its own c of p moving back. From that
condition without being able to exert downforce at the back a tuck/dive
would continue which was not recoverable.[The deepstallers were the Trident
and Bac111-but they were fixed]
. Modern Fleas were fixed, have moving control of part or all
the rear surface.
Hang gliders had a similar problem and without some ability to
counter rearward movement of the main centre of pressure will tuck
/overspeed.
ALL classic aircraft have to provide a sufficient downforce on
the tail to balance the couple derived from all lift forces against all
downward g forces{lets forget about the pitching couple of thrust against
drag] If cog g is allowed to move back the tail downforce can be reduced for
less drag but then pitch instability sets in and there is a limit you cannot
safely exceed.I have flown aircraft which due to bad loading were beyond the
authorised aft c of g anI can assure you they were very unpleasant That is
why there is so much attention to the cof g position on the weight and
balance part of permit to fly renewals {There are exceptions which rely on
computer control programming, such as the euro fighter and also Boeing and
Lockheed prototypes}
So yes there is in normal flight a down load on the tail and if the
download rquired is high enough the elevator can stall.Typically the use of
flaps brings main cof p back, requiring increased up elevator and a retrim.
Remember when you have trimmed to fly normal flight with stick
neutral that does`nt mean there is no down force on the tail
.On our microlights without benefit of so much design expertise
and wind tunnel work, there may not be enough elevator authority to complete
a landing flare, so a good fix is the turbulators under the tailplane
Vince Hallam
please phone rather than email
07941 313141
01803 316191
www.devonwindmills.co.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: a stall between 2 fools
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> .The tail is behaving like an upside down wing, that is why it is
> symetric,or flat on top,>>
>
> Hi Vince,
>
> sorry but if it is symmetric the bottom must be like the top, which is
> flat.
> To generate lift we need a curved surface which the tail plane patently
> does
> not have.
> In theory the tail plane is not needed on a properly balanced aircraft
> except to interfere with the airflow to enable the pilot to change
> direction
> or correct for unstable air.
>
> I still think the VG`s merely stop the boundary layer from breaking away
> and
> would still like to see some smoke or tuft tests in a wind tunnel.
>
>
> By the way, where did you get this Flying Flea stuff from? I did actually
> see one when I was a kid and was very impressed as what kid woudn`t have
> been. However they were banned in the UK after a few crashes and the many
> planes which were being built in garages all over the place were never
> finished. The problem was that the plane would get into an irrecoverable
> deep stall. They continued to fly on the Continent however and still do
> though the grandson (I think) of the original designer has produced an
> updated but still pretty idiosyncratic replacement. Several usually fly
> from
> France to the UK in the Spring for our main ultralight gathering. They are
> rather like the deux chevaux car. Very French.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
On May 7, 2006, at 10:11 PM, Bill Vincent wrote:
> Beauford
> No wonder your engine is over heating, that big 'ole BRS is
> blocking the =
> air.
> Bill Vincent
> FS II
> Do Not Archive
Bill did you notice how much up elevator is required for straight and
level ?
I strongly suggest that he hauling a bid LOAD of youknowhat in that
photo.
Plane in that trick pict was actually parked on the grass.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Eugene Zimmerman" <etzim62@earthlink.net>
Here is the pict again.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33402#33402
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bt_flying_273.jpg
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: symbols and numbers |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
messages coming in with symbols like equals ( =
Hi Bill,
only experienced this when a message is returned. Not confined to the Kolb
list by any means
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/333 - Release Date: 05/05/2006
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 08:36 AM 5/8/06 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
>Bill did you notice how much up elevator is required for straight and
>level ?
Eugene,
It looks like he is climbing. Compare the bottom longerons to the horizon.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Alexander" <gtalexander@att.net>
Jack:
Can't let this go on...... Eugene was right... it is a doctored picture I had done.
In addition to the up elevator, note the conspicuous absence of a tail wheel
and look closely at the mains.... you will see that they are kind of fuzzy
looking around the edges. (I'm not that good with an airbrush.) The background
is the area that we fly in near Airport Manatee (48X). In fact, if you look
directly under Beauford's nose pod, the white patches are tomato fields and
the airstrip is just beyond those, with hangars beyond the strip. Tampa Bay
is in the background.
Attached is the original picture of Beauford.
jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote:
> At 08:36 AM 5/8/06 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> > Bill did you notice how much up elevator is required for straight and
> > level ?
> >
> >
>
> Eugene,
>
> It looks like he is climbing. Compare the bottom longerons to the horizon.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
George Alexander
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33463#33463
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bt_600_et_149.jpg
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Particularly about the demise of the Flea>>
Hi Vince,
Sorry. Just sloppiness on my part. I should not have just lumped
uncontrollably diving into the ground in the same category as `deep stall`.
Incidentally, I saw one of the original Fleas on display at our largest
ultralight show last week. A ferocious piece of work. I don`t think anyone
who actually knew much about planes would willingly trust themselves in it.
Of course most of the people who were building them back in the 30`s DID NOT
know anything about flying and the promise of easy construction, cheap
flying blinded them to the fact that it was dangerous.
Even the new models don`t inspire a great deal of confidence but they are
very manouverable. I have seen film of a Flea get together in France .
People turning up towing the Flea on its own wheels behind their cars,
putting the thing together and flying. There did seem to be a lot of
taxying and not much actual flying.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/333 - Release Date: 05/05/2006
Message 8
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| Subject: | What training do I need? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "DieselsRcool" <LarryB@LBMaps.com>
After about 5+yrs of not flying I have decided to venture forth and find a Kolb
of some sort and get back into it. I'm leaning toward the Firestar due to it's
conventional controls/construction, simplicity, folding wings, and good looks.
I have 1k+ hours in taildraggers, mostly Luscome, KR2 and Baby Ace. I have
no ultralight time and am looking for opinions from Kolb pilots as to what kind
of a check-out I should work towards.
Also, I'm currently looking for a non/flying damaged or incomplete project, or
complete flying plane for a decent price. Any advise in this would be greatly
appreciated.
My current hobby/job is producing Garmin GPS maps of Baja Mexico. I want to add
the KOLB to my toolbox for mapping in this area so simplicity,durability and
trailerability is a must. I think the FireStar will fill the bill.
Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33482#33482
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry Frantz <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
Hey Eugene,
Whoaaaaa! Eagle eye at work!
Terry - Firefly #95
Message 10
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne <kinnepix@earthlink.net>
Pat
I've been away 2 weex. Did you get info on Crossfield?
Best, rushed,
Russ
On Apr 30, 2006, at 2:40 PM, pat ladd wrote:
> Chat
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: What training do I need? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
A Luscomb flyer won't have any trouble getting checked out in any of the Kolbs.
DieselsRcool <LarryB@LBMaps.com> wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "DieselsRcool"
After about 5+yrs of not flying I have decided to venture forth and find a Kolb
of some sort and get back into it. I'm leaning toward the Firestar due to it's
conventional controls/construction, simplicity, folding wings, and good looks.
I have 1k+ hours in taildraggers, mostly Luscome, KR2 and Baby Ace. I have
no ultralight time and am looking for opinions from Kolb pilots as to what kind
of a check-out I should work towards.
Also, I'm currently looking for a non/flying damaged or incomplete project, or
complete flying plane for a decent price. Any advise in this would be greatly
appreciated.
My current hobby/job is producing Garmin GPS maps of Baja Mexico. I want to add
the KOLB to my toolbox for mapping in this area so simplicity,durability and
trailerability is a must. I think the FireStar will fill the bill.
Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33482#33482
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: a stall between 2 fools |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: ray anderson <rsanoa@yahoo.com>
Tons of Fleas flying. The new design flys perfectly safely. As with all ultralights,
the problem remains, a suitable light weight and reliable engine. Type
in Flying Fleas into Google and find plenty of links for information.
Do not archive.
UltraStar, Tenn.
pat ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd"
Particularly about the demise of the Flea>>
Hi Vince,
Sorry. Just sloppiness on my part. I should not have just lumped
uncontrollably diving into the ground in the same category as `deep stall`.
Incidentally, I saw one of the original Fleas on display at our largest
ultralight show last week. A ferocious piece of work. I don`t think anyone
who actually knew much about planes would willingly trust themselves in it.
Of course most of the people who were building them back in the 30`s DID NOT
know anything about flying and the promise of easy construction, cheap
flying blinded them to the fact that it was dangerous.
Even the new models don`t inspire a great deal of confidence but they are
very manouverable. I have seen film of a Flea get together in France .
People turning up towing the Flea on its own wheels behind their cars,
putting the thing together and flying. There did seem to be a lot of
taxying and not much actual flying.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/333 - Release Date: 05/05/2006
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
On May 8, 2006, at 2:29 PM, George Alexander wrote:
> (I'm not that good with an airbrush.)
Hey , but you are actually worse as a liar George.
You did a great job on that pict! :-)
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Relapse |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Possum" <possums@mindspring.com>
George Alexander wrote:
> Jack:
> Can't let this go on...... Eugene was right... it is a doctored picture I had
done. In addition to the up elevator, note the conspicuous absence of a tail
wheel and look closely at the mains.... you will see that they are kind of fuzzy
looking around the edges.
>
You can't belive anything you see on the internet.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33499#33499
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/after_201.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/before_209.jpg
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: What training do I need? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
I'd be very interested in seeing some of those Baja maps. I have a Garmin
196 and an eTrex Legend, and I've covered a fair amount of ground in the
Baja. Lar.
----- Original Message -----
From: "DieselsRcool" <LarryB@LBMaps.com>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 1:59 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: What training do I need?
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "DieselsRcool" <LarryB@LBMaps.com>
>
> After about 5+yrs of not flying I have decided to venture forth and find a
> Kolb of some sort and get back into it. I'm leaning toward the Firestar
> due to it's conventional controls/construction, simplicity, folding wings,
> and good looks. I have 1k+ hours in taildraggers, mostly Luscome, KR2 and
> Baby Ace. I have no ultralight time and am looking for opinions from Kolb
> pilots as to what kind of a check-out I should work towards.
>
> Also, I'm currently looking for a non/flying damaged or incomplete
> project, or complete flying plane for a decent price. Any advise in this
> would be greatly appreciated.
>
> My current hobby/job is producing Garmin GPS maps of Baja Mexico. I want
> to add the KOLB to my toolbox for mapping in this area so
> simplicity,durability and trailerability is a must. I think the FireStar
> will fill the bill.
> Larry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33482#33482
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: What training do I need? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "J carter" <cartejy@mtn-state.com>
Larry,If you can consider the KXP model and a 503,Works great for me + have
extra power when needed Jay Carter E Liverpool Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "DieselsRcool" <LarryB@LBMaps.com>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 1:59 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: What training do I need?
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "DieselsRcool" <LarryB@LBMaps.com>
>
> After about 5+yrs of not flying I have decided to venture forth and find a
Kolb of some sort and get back into it. I'm leaning toward the Firestar due
to it's conventional controls/construction, simplicity, folding wings, and
good looks. I have 1k+ hours in taildraggers, mostly Luscome, KR2 and Baby
Ace. I have no ultralight time and am looking for opinions from Kolb pilots
as to what kind of a check-out I should work towards.
>
> Also, I'm currently looking for a non/flying damaged or incomplete
project, or complete flying plane for a decent price. Any advise in this
would be greatly appreciated.
>
> My current hobby/job is producing Garmin GPS maps of Baja Mexico. I want
to add the KOLB to my toolbox for mapping in this area so
simplicity,durability and trailerability is a must. I think the FireStar
will fill the bill.
> Larry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33482#33482
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | landing in the Oregon Outback! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrel@kfalls.net>
I guess its my turn for a sad tale of woe and regret. Its gonna be a bit =
lengthy, so either delete now or settle back.
My wife and I just closed on a property in the Eastern Oregon Desert. =
It is something that we both wanted, a 2600 foot airstrip and a cinder =
block hanger 40x50 for me and quiet, limitless view with a swimming pool =
and endless areas with no fences, to ride her horse for her. Everything =
was working out pretty good, We no sooner closed on the property than we =
were able to sell our house of 28 yrs here in Klamath. We have been =
making trip after trip taking stuff, mostly farming stuff, to the new =
house. A six and half hour drive each way. We had just taken a large =
truck full of stuff and had finished unloading most of it, when I see a =
falcon fly by, mine! She was really tired of the rides over and back =
riding in her hood so that she would keep quiet, so she sat outside and =
pulled and tugged on her jesses and leash until she pulled loose and off =
to see the wizard she goes. She made one pass at a quail that I was =
using for a lure and decided that she liked flying much better than =
food. Then she wouldn't let me get close to her again. I had invested a =
year of training on this bird and she was showing a lot of promise. It =
was really sad to loose her now, plus she was hampered by the jesses and =
swivel still attached to her. (major guilt trip)
I had taken my Firestar over on a earlier trip, but hadn't flown it =
since last October, and I really wanted to do an annual before flying. =
Well I had fired it up and had fresh gas in it, and it had preformed =
well as usual. So when the winds calmed down, I took off and flew it for =
about 45 minutes looking at the area around the property. She preformed =
flawlessly as usual, my first landing was just as good as it was when I =
flew last October. I was up with the daylight the next morning and it =
was dead still, so I told my wife where I wanted to look for the bird =
and took off again. I looked for about 45 minutes, flying in some pretty =
remote spots and had no luck. My fuel gages were not functioning, ( One =
of the things that I really wanted to fix) so I decided to go straight =
cross country since it was only 7 miles that way and 18 by hwy. The =
country was rising and all of a sudden the engine cut back to idle. =
First I looked and saw an area in the sage that had only grass, big =
enough to land. I was sure that I couldn't get it back out of there, but =
first things first. Now here is really where the decisions get iffy! I =
checked and CHT's and EGT's were in range. I decided that my throttle =
cable had broken and it had defaulted to idle. No big deal, I had the =
spot made with no problem. In behind the spot was a canyon, a creek =
drainage on the other. I pulled the throttle all the way back and set up =
to land. I am here to tell you that your engine at idle is pushing you =
through the air. If it pushes your airplane on the ground, it pushes =
your airplane especially well in the air. Not enough to clear a canyon, =
but enough to keep your speed up. For some reason I was distracted =
enough that I did not cut the engine. At about fifty feet, I could see =
that the area was littered with some pretty large rocks, basket ball and =
a bit bigger. I remember thinking, "this is gonna hurt". Nothing to do =
now but make the best of it, flared at way too fast a speed for a =
boulder field, and bang, a cloud of dust and I am hanging in my harness =
with gas dripping out of the vent tube. So I cut the power, released the =
harness and climbed out. The left landing leg had broken at the wheel =
axle causing the plane to nose over hard into a boulder that I would =
have other wise straddled bending the rod that the rudders are attached =
to, munching my nose cone. The rudder never hit the ground. I checked =
for injuries and found that my middle finger somehow was sprained =
because I had been holding on to the throttle. No other cuts or =
scratches, ego was sprained as well. I went back over the debris field =
which was only about 15 feet long, and found that a rock small enough to =
only hit the rim caused the left leg to break, while the other wheel =
pulled a rock about the size of two basket balls out of the ground with =
no damage to the leg.
I hiked out to the hwy "about a mile", and attempted to hitch hike back =
home. Well I walked four miles with every "honky" speeding up when they =
saw my thumb out. Apparently I don't look as trustworthy as I used to =
look. I had developed a couple of good blisters when a Mexican couple =
stopped and gave me a ride for the last 6 miles. I managed to get there =
just before the wife called up a search party. I changed shoes and =
socks, ( always wear good hiking boots when you fly), and we went back =
and took off the wings and flipped her back over to a much more =
dignified manner. I found that the front spark plug cap was off. I put =
it back on the plug and gave it a tug and it easily came off. Throttle =
cables were just fine. We then carried the wings for about 4 tenths of a =
mile to the trailer. We will go back with my quad, fasten a wheel to the =
broken leg, and pull her down the hill, across the creek and back up the =
hill on the other side. I will have to cut a fence to get her through, =
but I can repair that, then trailer her home. On my walk home I did see =
my errant falcon chasing some birds about six miles from home.
I decided to stay for a few days longer to give her a chance to get =
hungry and perhaps she would come back home. It rained a bit on Sunday =
and at dusk the wind died so I pulled out an electric RC plane that I =
had just gotten to play with. I had just set the thing down on the =
ground when there was the falcon flying over my head wondering why I =
wasn't feeding her. I hot footed it back to the house and got my quail =
and called her down. She had apparently gotten lonesome because she =
really didn't eat that much. When she was done I put her in the "fenced =
weathering pen" that I had finally gotten time to put up. She pulled her =
foot up and was apparently happy to be back. I then went out to the RC =
plane and found that it had tipped over on its nose, I had apparently =
nudged the throttle in my run to the house, so the motor was fried. That =
is how I lost two planes in two days!
I had intended to recover the plane this fall, but it appears that I =
will have to bump up the schedule a bit. I am going to put the steel =
legs and nerf tires on as well. I really don't think there is much =
damage to the frame, but of course I will not know for sure until =
stripping every thing. The wings, empennage, and boom is just fine.
Larry, Oregon
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: landing in the Oregon Outback! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Larry:
Glad you got the bird back!!!
Glad you did not get hurt, other than your finger and blisters.
The FS is repairable.
See you all in a couple weeks.
john h
mkIII
PS: What kind of condition is the airstrip?
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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