Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:01 AM - Re: Redundancy.. ITm not gonna repeat myself ! (pat ladd)
2. 02:27 AM - Re: Redundancy (Dave Bigelow)
3. 03:41 AM - redundancy (Edward Steuber)
4. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: Redundancy (Richard Pike)
5. 09:07 AM - Re: Re: Redundancy (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
6. 09:48 AM - Magnetic error (David Paule)
7. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Redundancy (robert bean)
8. 01:15 PM - Re: Redundancy (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
9. 02:31 PM - Re: Re: Redundancy (John Hauck)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Redundancy.. ITm not gonna repeat myself ! |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
here in yank land we like excess>>
Hi Ralph,
I think it comes from having far more than your fair share of the worlds
resources. Wasting things is a national pastime. I well remember on my
first visit the the USA, around the early `70s, coming across `Turf and
Surf` on a menu. I was horrified that with half the world starving anyone
could come up with a culinary experiment that was not only supremely
wasteful but spoiled both the lobster and the steak.
There is no doubt that King George made a wrong decision by allowing you to
keep America. We did the same with France. If we had hung on to it what a
great country it would be now. After all the only thing wrong with France is
that it is full of French.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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Message 2
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
Dennis,
The electric pump redundancy is a good idea. If you look at the specs for the
Mikuni engine pumps that come with the two stroke Rotax engines, you'll see that
they are rated to lift fuel no more than about 36 inches. Measure the distance
to the mid point of your fuel tanks and you'll see that it is pretty close
to that.
I've believed for some time that some of the mysterious engine seizures that seem
to happen for no known reason are partial fuel starvation caused by the pulse
pump not putting out enough fuel. The classic failure is a full power take
off and climb, followed by a seizure when the power is pulled back.
The electric pump should be plumbed in parallel rather than in series. Both the
mechanical and electric pumps have a built in check valve, so you don't need
to add check valves unless you want more redundancy. If you plumb the pumps
in series, the fuel pressure will be too high (unless you install a regulator),
and either pump failing can block the single fuel path to the engine. There
was a good article in "Ultralight Flying" several years ago by Arnold Anderson
(Fight Safety Notebook) on the subject.
I don't see any reason to turn the electric pump off in flight unless you don't
have battery charging, and want to save electricity.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33990#33990
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Edward Steuber" <esteuber@rochester.rr.com>
You guys are making my head hurt from all this complication , I'm with =
BB on the simplistic side of the issue....The reason I got into =
ultralights was the shear joy of uncomplicated flight....also .... I =
tend to be a bit cheap so buying 2 of everything is not an option =
anyway...
Ed in Western NY
do not archive
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
I disagree that the pressure would be too high. I have a fuel pressure
gauge on the panel, my pumps are in series, and I learned that with both
pumps working, the fuel pressure pickup located between the Mikuni and
carbs, the pressure is 3 1/2 pounds.
I relocated the pickup for the pressure gauge, so that it now only
monitors the Facet electric pump. Still shows 3 1/2 pounds. Left the
pressure pickup at that location. I test the Mikuni during taxi out and
run up by turning the electric pump off, (fuel pressure gauge falls to
zero) engine still runs ok, Mikuni must be working, and drawing fuel
through the Facet.
Then I turn the electric pump back on for the rest of the flight. Should
the Mikuni fail in flight, as long as the pressure is showing 3 pounds
or better, I know I will get fuel, because I see no way for the Mikuni
to block the fuel that the electric pump is pushing into the inlet side.
Don't know about the article in Ultralight Flying, but I know what
works. It might get blocked up tomorrow, but it's worked fine since '98.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Dave Bigelow wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
>
> Dennis,
>
> The electric pump redundancy is a good idea. If you look at the specs for the
Mikuni engine pumps that come with the two stroke Rotax engines, you'll see
that they are rated to lift fuel no more than about 36 inches. Measure the distance
to the mid point of your fuel tanks and you'll see that it is pretty close
to that.
>
> I've believed for some time that some of the mysterious engine seizures that
seem to happen for no known reason are partial fuel starvation caused by the pulse
pump not putting out enough fuel. The classic failure is a full power take
off and climb, followed by a seizure when the power is pulled back.
>
> The electric pump should be plumbed in parallel rather than in series. Both
the mechanical and electric pumps have a built in check valve, so you don't need
to add check valves unless you want more redundancy. If you plumb the pumps
in series, the fuel pressure will be too high (unless you install a regulator),
and either pump failing can block the single fuel path to the engine. There
was a good article in "Ultralight Flying" several years ago by Arnold Anderson
(Fight Safety Notebook) on the subject.
>
> I don't see any reason to turn the electric pump off in flight unless you don't
have battery charging, and want to save electricity.
>
> --------
> Dave Bigelow
> Kamuela, Hawaii
> FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=33990#33990
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
I have two electric fuel pumps plumed into my fuel system in series. I would
prefer one of my fuel pumps to be some thing other than electric but my
reduction drive sits were the mechanical fuel would be. I use a Facet as one
of my pumps. I would never want to depend on a Facet pump because I have
experienced a few failures with them.
I use the following procedure that tests both pumps before each flight. I
prime my carbs by turning on only the Facet pump which is the first in
series and is my backup or boost pump. I can physically see the flow rate as
I have a short piece of transparent fuel line just before the carbs. then I
turn it off. I then start the engine using only the primary pump and
continue thru warm-up and run up. Just before take off I switch on the Facet
pump. After takeoff I turn the Facet pump off.
I don't like to run both pumps all the time because I feel that I might be
wearing out both pumps and want to have at least one fairly unused pump
there for back up if my primary pump fails. This is also the same procedure
I was trained to use and described in the Piper Owners Manual. There must
have been reason Piper Aircraft suggested turning off the boost pump at
altitude so I follow the same guideline with my Kolb.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:27 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Redundancy
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
>
> Dennis,
>
> The electric pump redundancy is a good idea.
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" <dpaule@frii.com>
FYI, alkaline batteries are quite magnetic and, if placed close to your
compass, can cause a deviation.
Found this out on the Skywagon some time ago, with extra batteries in the
glove box, at least a foot and a half from the compass. I generally use
Duracells, for which this warning applies, haven't tried others.
Dave Paule
Boulder
Message 7
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Easy to tell when the Facet is ready. -Turn on the ignition and wait
until the
tone changes and its ready to hit start.
For the person who wanted the low pressure number: 40105
AC Spruce has them in stock
-BB
On 11, May 2006, at 12:00 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen"
> <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
>
> I have two electric fuel pumps plumed into my fuel system in series. I
> would
> prefer one of my fuel pumps to be some thing other than electric but my
> reduction drive sits were the mechanical fuel would be. I use a Facet
> as one
> of my pumps. I would never want to depend on a Facet pump because I
> have
> experienced a few failures with them.
>
> I use the following procedure that tests both pumps before each
> flight. I
> prime my carbs by turning on only the Facet pump which is the first in
> series and is my backup or boost pump. I can physically see the flow
> rate as
> I have a short piece of transparent fuel line just before the carbs.
> then I
> turn it off. I then start the engine using only the primary pump and
> continue thru warm-up and run up. Just before take off I switch on the
> Facet
> pump. After takeoff I turn the Facet pump off.
>
> I don't like to run both pumps all the time because I feel that I
> might be
> wearing out both pumps and want to have at least one fairly unused pump
> there for back up if my primary pump fails. This is also the same
> procedure
> I was trained to use and described in the Piper Owners Manual. There
> must
> have been reason Piper Aircraft suggested turning off the boost pump at
> altitude so I follow the same guideline with my Kolb.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:27 AM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Redundancy
>
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow"
>> <up_country@hotmail.com>
>>
>> Dennis,
>>
>> The electric pump redundancy is a good idea.
>
>
Message 8
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
<< do you mount the electric pump close to the fuel tank (gulp..sparks), or
is it mounted up along the frame of the cage so that you can see it? ralph
of Ohio >>
Ralph - Using a pair of aluminum brackets spanning between two of the cage
members on the fuselage side, I fashioned a method to attach the Facet level
with the bottom of the fuel tanks and angled at 45 degrees (per fuel pump
installation instructions). Part of my preflight is to peer behind the seat
to inspect the pump, mostly for security of hose connections. Easy to see
and service (if needed).
<< Next, which model number pump is it and is it in the low (3 psi) range as
previously described by others in order to not overcome the float bowles? >>
>From the ACSpruce catalog, I purchased the Facet model 40105, 2.5 to 4.5 psi
max, 12v, solid state pump. As it is solid state (not an electric motor),
there is no worry about sparks.
The Rotax manuals warn that pressures above 5.8 psi may lead to "override of
float valves," but there is some protection in the float bowl overflow
feature. The overflow can handle pressures up to perhaps 7 or 8 psi before
the floats become overwhelmed with too much incoming fuel. I have never yet
seen the carb bowls overflow on my Bings from the Facet pump being left on
(while the engine is running).
You are wise to follow the "keep it simple" advice from the List members
that offer it, with regard to fuel systems.
Dennis Kirby
Mark-III, 912ul, in
Cedar Crest, NM
Message 9
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
"override of
| float valves," but there is some protection in the float bowl
overflow
| feature. The overflow can handle pressures up to perhaps 7 or 8 psi
before
| the floats become overwhelmed with too much incoming fuel. |
| Dennis Kirby
| Mark-III, 912ul, in
| Cedar Crest, NM
Dennis:
That outlet on the float bowl chamber of the 912 carb is not an
overflow as I thought when I initially installed the 912 on my mkIII
in 1994. That is one of the static air sources that works with the
other static air source in the lip of the carb inlet. These two
static sources and the position of the throttle plate tell the piston
in the carb where it should be positioned. That is why it is
important for them to all read the same static pressure.
The low pressure Facet and the engine driven pump will not produce
enough pressure to override the floats and needles.
This is covered in the Rotax 912 School presented by Eric Tucker.
After three classes over the last six years I think I have that part
down correctly. hehehe
john h
mkIII
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