---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/18/06: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:47 AM - Re: Wilbur Wright's Birthplace (Thom Riddle) 2. 04:22 AM - Re: Wilbur Wright's Birthplace (Jack B. Hart) 3. 06:24 AM - Re: Stats for MV trip w/a 503 (jimhefner) 4. 07:10 AM - Re: Gasoline (Ethanol, actually) (David Paule) 5. 07:47 AM - Re: Re: Gasoline (Ethanol, actually) (Jim Baker) 6. 09:07 AM - Never ever mix Marvel Mystery Oil with Synthetic Oil (Hans van Alphen) 7. 10:49 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 06/17/06 (Comcast) 8. 12:58 PM - Re: Wilbur Wright's Birthplace (jerb) 9. 03:41 PM - Bagdad (Dave & Eve Pelletier) 10. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 06/17/06 (Jim Baker) 11. 05:15 PM - Re: Bagdad (Bob Dalton) 12. 05:31 PM - Pics of Kolbra 004 (Wayne T. McCullough) 13. 05:38 PM - Test, Please Ignore... (Matt Dralle) 14. 05:46 PM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 06/17/06 (robert bean) 15. 06:43 PM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 06/17/06 (Eugene Zimmerman) 16. 07:31 PM - Kolb Brothers Grand Canyon (David Kulp) 17. 07:54 PM - Looking for advice repairing bent Ultrastar wing. (David Kulp) 18. 08:07 PM - Re: Re: Gasoline (Ethanol, actually) (Ron) 19. 08:43 PM - Re: Looking for advice repairing bent Ultrastar wing. (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:06 AM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wilbur Wright's Birthplace --> Kolb-List message posted by: Thom Riddle Jack, Sounds like you had fun and a bit of an adrenalin flow. So how short was the field? Thom in Buffalo ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:11 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wilbur Wright's Birthplace --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" At 06:43 AM 6/18/06 -0400, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Thom Riddle > >Jack, > >Sounds like you had fun and a bit of an adrenalin flow. So how short >was the field? > >Thom in Buffalo Thom, The field is supposed to be 800 feet but 200 of it got lost some where. I am NOT good at getting off grass. Since I put the FireFly on its nose the first time off grass, I have problems letting the tail wheel come up to reduce the rolling resistance. On a hard surface runway it doesn't seem to make any difference and it is easy to get off in 150 feet at gross weight. On the way back I decided I am just going to have to let the stick come forward and let the tail come up. I put VG's under the vertical stabilizer to get more down force for flaring. I will practice on the hard surface until I break what is now a bad habit, and then move to the grass runway and work on it some more. If I am invited back for next year, I hope to do better. It was impressive to taxi out up past the RC flight line and all of the pilots and ground crews clapped as the FireFly went by. To them it must have seemed as if the FireFly was large scale RC with local on board control. They deserved a better take off by a Kolb FireFly. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:21 AM PST US From: "jimhefner" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Stats for MV trip w/a 503 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jimhefner" Wow, you averaged 58 mph on the trip, which is darned good, considering all the wind conditions encountered in 2 weeks of flying. Quite a x-c trip!! Thanks again! -------- Jim Hefner Tucson, AZ Firefly #022 447, 2 blade IVO, BRS-750 Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=41537#41537 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:55 AM PST US From: "David Paule" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Gasoline (Ethanol, actually) --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" There's one little issue to think about. Well, there may be others, but this is the biggie. Ethanol has about 12,000 BTU per pound, and gasoline has about 18,500 BTU per pound. This means that gasoline has over more 50% more energy than ethanol. Looking at it the other way, ethanol has only 65% the energy of gasoline. A 50 hp motor, rated on gasoline, would only produce 32 hp on pure ethanol. Methanol has about 9,00 BTU per pound, so it's even worse. That's why your car gets worse mileage on mixed gasoline and alcohol than it does on straight gasoline. The mixture doesn't have the energy density that gasoline does. Dave Paule Boulder, CO Ron wrote: Ethanol is an excellent fuel, its octane is 110 and its volatility is lower than avgas..... All the articles I have read so far say nothing about the Ethanol itself.... In all respects Ethanol is a better avefuel than the expensive stuff we burn now..... Ron Arizona ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:59 AM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Gasoline (Ethanol, actually) --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > Looking > at it the other way, ethanol has only 65% the energy of gasoline. A 50 hp > motor, rated on gasoline, would only produce 32 hp on pure ethanol. I'd say that was an incorrect assessment. If you want to leave the mass units per HP per hour the same, which you clearly cannot do since the mass of ethanol required is greater than straight gasoline, you'd need to bump the flow rates up and the result would be an engine that is just as powerful, if not more so...runs cooler, too, at equivalent horsepower because of the greater latent heat of evaporation of ethanol (marginal improvements for the 10-15% stuff). You need to think in terms of stoichiometry, not energy per unit mass. Jim Baker 580.788.2779 Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:21 AM PST US From: "Hans van Alphen" Subject: Kolb-List: Never ever mix Marvel Mystery Oil with Synthetic Oil --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Hans van Alphen" Hi Rick and Kolbers, Unfortunately I have heard this before that people use Marvel Mystery Oil as an additive to their synthetic Oil. Big Mistake. I use Marvel Mystery Oil on every tank of Gas as I believe it is a great additive and the engine will burn cleaner. But you do NOT want to add this to your Synthetic Oil as it will "clean" your oil and strip it of all its additives important for lubrication. I use Mobil 1 Synthetic Oil. Fly safe Hans van Alphen Mark III Xtra BMW powered. > -----Original Message----- >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "tc1917" snip Can we use Marvel Mystery oil in our gas (or oil). Going to the local >> airports................. snip > Rick Girard > "Ya'll drop on in" > takes on a whole new meaning > when you live at the airport. > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:24 AM PST US From: Comcast Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 06/17/06 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Comcast Ron - Re: "In all respects Ethanol is a better avefuel than the expensive stuff we burn now." Except for one that's more important for planes then even for cars: Specific Energy. A pound of gasoline simply contains more energy then a pound of alcohol. Unless you have a computer controlled engine to take advantage of it, 110 octane (a measure of burning smoothness, not energy) gives you no added benefit over a lower octane fuel, provided the lower octane fuel meets your engine's minimal octane requirement. Two weeks ago, I had a discussion about this issue with a Exxon chemical engineer. His job is formulating fuels, and the forum was the Philly MIT Alumni chapter, so I suspect he know a little about this. His estimate of added power extractable from higher octane was < 1%. That's based on changing the way the engine runs (mainly timing) which only some engines can do. It's not based on higher energy content from higher octane. For mogas, he even said that higher grades will, if anything, give lower mileage, as the octane boosting chemicals have a lower specific energy then straight gasoline. In this respect, alcohol is even "worse". Chuck Time: 09:41:54 PM PST US --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron" Ethanol is an excellent fuel, its octane is 110 and its volatility is lower than avgas. I will run ethanol in my Suzuki conversion as soon as I have it running All the articles I have read so far say nothing about the Ethanol itself. They talk about the effects or speculated effects of the Ethanol on old rubber parts. I don't know of any modern seals that deteriorate because of ethanol. Heck we drink the stuff, we call it Vodka sans the 15% mogas. In all respects Ethanol is a better avefuel than the expensive stuff we burn now. As we have not heard of any crushes attributed to E-85 I can safely say that its looking pretty good. For sure somebody is flying with it already. Ron Arizona ===================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:48 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wilbur Wright's Birthplace --> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb Jack, You have to work at it to lift that tail to the point of going over on the nose on a takeoff run, yea it can be done but you have to do it by incorrect control position or abrupt control movement, and/or rapid power application. I got my original tail wheel instruction from an old military tail wheel instructor who flew T-6's, P-51's, and was an instructor for P51 transitions. .. Start your takeoff run with the stick pulled all the way back, this keeps the tail wheel nailed firmly planted for directional control authority, (Note with the FireFly "do not" rapidly apply power, feed in throttle as you pick up speed, this will help you maintain directional control and reduce the tendency to rotate over on its nose) - as the planes roll picks up speed, starting slowly moving the stick forward - (if timing is done right your actually lifting the tail ) - continue lifting the tail until you reach the sticks neutral position - if you continue moving the stick forward you can lift the tail to a tail high position - allowed to continue you could possibly nose it over - once the tail starts coming up, stop at the neutral position - hold it there as speed increases and the plane starts getting light - gently apply a small amount of back stick pressure and the plane will fly off - assume a normal climb out speed and attitude. jerb At 07:25 AM 6/18/2006, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" > >At 06:43 AM 6/18/06 -0400, you wrote: > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: Thom Riddle > > > >Jack, > > > >Sounds like you had fun and a bit of an adrenalin flow. So how short > >was the field? > > > >Thom in Buffalo > >Thom, > >The field is supposed to be 800 feet but 200 of it got lost some where. I >am NOT good at getting off grass. Since I put the FireFly on its nose the >first time off grass, I have problems letting the tail wheel come up to >reduce the rolling resistance. On a hard surface runway it doesn't seem to >make any difference and it is easy to get off in 150 feet at gross >weight. > >On the way back I decided I am just going to have to let the stick come >forward and let the tail come up. I put VG's under the vertical stabilizer >to get more down force for flaring. I will practice on the hard surface >until I break what is now a bad habit, and then move to the grass runway and >work on it some more. > >If I am invited back for next year, I hope to do better. It was impressive >to taxi out up past the RC flight line and all of the pilots and ground >crews clapped as the FireFly went by. To them it must have seemed as if the >FireFly was large scale RC with local on board control. They deserved a >better take off by a Kolb FireFly. > >Jack B. Hart FF004 >Winchester, IN > >do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:30 PM PST US From: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" Subject: Kolb-List: Bagdad Kolbers, Had a nice time flying in Bagdad, AZ yesterday so here are a couple of pics for ya. The first is the airport with the town of Bagdad at the top o f the pic. The next two pics are of the Phelps - Dodge copper mine. I thi nk the last pic is mine tailings, but seems like a mystery to me because if it is tailings, how do they pile them like that? I mean there are no road s on top or anything. I 'spect they use some sort of conveyor system but t he sides sure are straight. Gotta check it out. AzDave Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:32 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 06/17/06 The attachment was larger than 10 bytes. It was removed, but may be accessed at this URL: http://www.matronics.com/enclosures/74fcb762855f7d074e79865b0833fa6be7543dcd.txt ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:32 PM PST US From: "Bob Dalton" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Bagdad --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Bob Dalton" Dave, Great shots, interesting place those tailings were unique. Bob D. do not archive -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave & Eve Pelletier Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 3:37 PM Kolbers, Had a nice time flying in Bagdad, AZ yesterday so here are a couple of pics for ya. The first is the airport with the town of Bagdad at the top of the pic. The next two pics are of the Phelps - Dodge copper mine. I think the last pic is mine tailings, but seems like a mystery to me because if it is tailings, how do they pile them like that? I mean there are no roads on top or anything. I 'spect they use some sort of conveyor system but the sides sure are straight. Gotta check it out. AzDave Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:33 PM PST US From: "Wayne T. McCullough" Subject: Kolb-List: Pics of Kolbra 004 Hey guys, I really have been working....LOL Wayne Attachment: http://www.matronics.com/enclosures/12db0e9685d0a307dc4e4c28e276ad0f070788e8.JPG Attachment: http://www.matronics.com/enclosures/ae3b2472c44f5dfa5b34d26ad8c1fa7a29ec56f1.JPG Attachment: http://www.matronics.com/enclosures/b82c958d91d2ebcd741da33ccefac06fa2d5c5a9.JPG Attachment: http://www.matronics.com/enclosures/6192f2c39d6f047b17ce49d137c3ca35e2a48bad.JPG Attachment: http://www.matronics.com/enclosures/b944b1c46e375339d8670d6a4be447693af95bf4.JPG ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:55 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: Test, Please Ignore... Testing Enclosure Replacement Code... Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft Attachment: http://www.matronics.com/enclosures/5762dd8f38c2bb4b0d513b5c6af3be8e2b561ec7.txt ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:04 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 06/17/06 --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean You just flat out are not going to get as much energy out of ethanol as gasoline, whether by weight or volume.If you double the amount of alcohol going in you will have to increase the air too...... all limited by the pumping capacity of your engine. After all, it is just a big air compressor. What I could never understand were the ignorant who would put premium in their car to be "good to it". -More additives = more crap/deposits no more power = less money in your wallet. Most cars these days will run regular with a 9.5:1 CR Both my Suzukis do just fine, ground bound and flying. -BB do not archive On 18, Jun 2006, at 1:46 PM, Comcast wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Comcast > > Ron - > > Re: "In all respects Ethanol is a better avefuel than the expensive > stuff we burn now." > > Except for one that's more important for planes then even for cars: > Specific Energy. A pound of gasoline simply contains more energy then > a pound of alcohol. Unless you have a computer controlled engine to > take advantage of it, 110 octane (a measure of burning smoothness, not > energy) gives you no added benefit over a lower octane fuel, provided > the lower octane fuel meets your engine's minimal octane requirement. > Two weeks ago, I had a discussion about this issue with a Exxon > chemical engineer. His job is formulating fuels, and the forum was > the Philly MIT Alumni chapter, so I suspect he know a little about > this. His estimate of added power extractable from higher octane was > < 1%. That's based on changing the way the engine runs (mainly > timing) which only some engines can do. It's not based on higher > energy content from higher octane. For mogas, he even said that > higher grades will, if anything, give lower mileage, as the octane > boosting chemicals have a lower specific energy then straight > gasoline. In this respect, alcohol is even "worse". > > Chuck > > Time: 09:41:54 PM PST US > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron" > > Ethanol is an excellent fuel, its octane is 110 and its volatility is > lower > than avgas. I will run ethanol in my Suzuki conversion as soon as I > have it > running All the articles I have read so far say nothing about the > Ethanol > itself. They talk about the effects or speculated effects of the > Ethanol on > old rubber parts. I don't know of any modern seals that deteriorate > because > of ethanol. Heck we drink the stuff, we call it Vodka sans the 15% > mogas. In > all respects Ethanol is a better avefuel than the expensive stuff we > burn > now. As we have not heard of any crushes attributed to E-85 I can > safely say > that its looking pretty good. For sure somebody is flying with it > already. > > Ron > Arizona > ===================== > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:42 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 06/17/06 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman Not Found The requested URL /enclosures/ 74fcb762855f7d074e79865b0833fa6be7543dcd.txt was not found on this server. Apache/2.0.52 Server at www.matronics.com Port 80 ? ? ? ? ? On Jun 18, 2006, at 7:05 PM, Jim Baker wrote: > The attachment was larger than 10 bytes. > It was removed, but may be accessed at this URL: > > http://www.matronics.com/enclosures/ > 74fcb762855f7d074e79865b0833fa6be7543dcd.txt > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:57 PM PST US From: "David Kulp" Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Brothers Grand Canyon --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Kulp" Hi Kolbers, I've enjoyed the chatter and pictures following the good times had by those who were fortunate enough to get to the MV flyin, which of course is one just result of the pioneering adventures of an extraordinary man by the name of Homer Kolb. I'm certain many of you would be interested in two other pioneering adventurers from the Kolb family from the other side of the state, Ellsworth and Emery Kolb, who are part of the history and folklore of the Grand Canyon. Although they weren't involved with flying, considering many of their feats and accomplishments I think it would be fair to say they are cut from the same cloth as Homer. They were photographers, and below I'll copy a few links if you'd care to read about them and see some of the pictures available on the internet. You can also Google Kolb Grand Canyon and get many pages of hits. I lucked onto a 1915 copy of National Geographic magazine which contains 80 pages of pictures and script about their adventures and it is breath-taking! Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA bent Ultrastar Do not archive. http://www.kaibab.org/kolb/ http://www.archives.gov/nhprc/annotation/december-98/emery-kolb.html http://www.grandcanyon.org/kolb/kolbphotographs.asp ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:27 PM PST US From: "David Kulp" Subject: Kolb-List: Looking for advice repairing bent Ultrastar wing. --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Kulp" Hi Kolbers, A short time ago I posted a request for advice and cautions on repairing the right wing on my Ultrastar, which broke free from its tiedowns in a wind storm and flippen onto its right side. The photos I attached failed to make it with the post, so I got no response. Now I've got the photos, so what I'm mainly concerned with is whether and/or how to straighten the leading edge of the wing, which is bent about 1 1/2 inches in the first 8 feet or so. The other two damages I believe will be more straightforward, but I'd still appreciate advice with them, too. Thanks in advance!! Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA bent Ultrastar Do not archive. http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/undoctor@rcn.com.06.01.2006/index.html ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:55 PM PST US From: "Ron" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Gasoline (Ethanol, actually) --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron" I have been running Ethanol E-85 in both the Yukon and Cavalier. I had several runs up to PHX from Sierra Vista. Here is the report sort of semi scientific. I drive usually at 85mph or higher it's a bunch of miles to go. Anyway the mileage difference is nil. The biggest spread I had was 1.5 mpg difference, but that I attribute most likely to heavy traffic in PHX enroute to the pump. I fuel here in Sierra Vista with e-85 and used it on several trips, back I use regular and premium. My best guess at why the difference in BTU is not translating into any practical difference in MPG is mogas burns faster and a lot of the btu's are simply absorbed by the coolant or go out the exhaust. Ethanol burns slower and more of its energy gets to make motive force. Anther interesting thing besides that it smells better, is that the engine runs smoother. As for the cars the Yukon a 1996 model runs fine on E-85 once warmed up but stumbles till then. In it I am running E-50 now. I stop at the mogas pump dump 10 gallons and move up to the Ethanol pump and dump 13 gallons or so. The Cavalier a 2000 year model runs fine on straight E-85 except the check engine light comes on if I run it hard like the drive to PHX. All it takes to reset the lights is a tank of mogas. In town at slow drive the computer does not complain. I have been doing this for about 6 months. There are no mechanical problems. I think for those that have fixed ignition timing retarding the ignition to take advantage of the slower burn rate will nil out much of the btu advantage that mogas has. I'll try it with my Kolb once its running and see if there is any difference Ron Arizona ================= -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Paule Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 9:09 AM --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Paule" There's one little issue to think about. Well, there may be others, but this is the biggie. Ethanol has about 12,000 BTU per pound, and gasoline has about 18,500 BTU per pound. This means that gasoline has over more 50% more energy than ethanol. Looking at it the other way, ethanol has only 65% the energy of gasoline. A 50 hp motor, rated on gasoline, would only produce 32 hp on pure ethanol. Methanol has about 9,00 BTU per pound, so it's even worse. That's why your car gets worse mileage on mixed gasoline and alcohol than it does on straight gasoline. The mixture doesn't have the energy density that gasoline does. Dave Paule Boulder, CO Ron wrote: Ethanol is an excellent fuel, its octane is 110 and its volatility is lower than avgas..... All the articles I have read so far say nothing about the Ethanol itself.... In all respects Ethanol is a better avefuel than the expensive stuff we burn now..... Ron Arizona ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:04 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Looking for advice repairing bent Ultrastar wing. --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Received: from barracuda.matronics.com (barracuda.matronics.com [64.81.74.21]) by matronics.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5J3fWLW017036 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:41:33 -0700 X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1150688491-15160-58-0 X-Barracuda-URL: http://64.81.74.21:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi Received: from mxsf39.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf39.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.166]) by barracuda.matronics.com (Spam Firewall) with ESMTP id 05A7CCCE9 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.142]) by mxsf39.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5J3fUWh007602 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 23:41:30 -0400 Received: from 66-191-228-6.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com (HELO [192.168.0.101]) ([66.191.228.6]) by mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 18 Jun 2006 23:41:30 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,149,1149480000"; d="scan'208"; a="490463971:sNHT34453420" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: Kolb-List: Looking for advice repairing bent Ultrastar wing. References: <001b01c6934b$7635deb0$4f514e41@DavesShinyNew> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam Firewall at matronics.com X-ASG-Whitelist: SUBJECT (Kolb-List:) X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=3.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=3.0 KILL_LEVEL=5.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 64.81.74.4 You are going to have to remove some fabric so that you can see just where and to what extent the aluminum is damaged. It could be that you have some bent ribs that are pulling the leading edge out of column, but you won't know until you open up some fabric. I would slit the fabric around the edge of the root rib and remove it, because that rib will need repair. Once that fabric is out of the way, you will be able to see inside the wing and see if any other ribs are damaged, or if the leading edge is damaged. Then you will know which fabric needs removing, and how far back to remove it. What you find will determine what happens next. On the aileron, I would slit the fabric along the underside of the aileron, next to the trailing edge, in the vicinity of the ding, probably out about half way to the two good ribs. Very possibly you will be able to carefully cut out just the damaged section of tube, sleeve in a good length, and then reglue your fabric back so you don't have to do a major fabric repair. Here's how you do it: get a length of fabric about 6" wide and about as long as the slit section, and polybrush it (not polytak) onto the fabric along the top side just ahead of the trailing edge. You want it to overlap your present fabric about two inches, the 4" that hangs loose off the back is to give you a handle to pull the fabric back in place with. Let it get good and dry and then spread a coat of polytak along the trailing edge, and then pulling with the doped-on fabric, pull the original fabric tight onto the tube and around the corner toward the bottom. Weight it or clamp it or something so it will stay tight and let the polytak dry. Now peel off the doped on 6" wide "pull handle" section without pulling your top fabric loose from the trailing edge. Now dope (polybrush) a fresh 6" wide section of fabric onto the rear edge of the loose fabric along the bottom, with about a 3" overlap, and let it dry. After it is dry, pull it tight around the tube and dope it onto the top fabric, with about 3" overlap on each side. Let it dry, cover it with some wide tape, polybrush it, shrink it, and a couple more coats of silver/color and you ought to be good to go. Depending on what sort of repairs you have to do to the wing, and where or how you have to slit that fabric, you might be able to do a similar thing with that fabric. For instance, if you have to replace a leading edge, but the ribs are unharmed, doing a similar thing to the fabric along the leading edge allows you to keep 95% of the wing fabric intact. It won't look quite as tidy as an original job, but if you are careful, and the paint matches, it will only be noticeable at close inspection, and will save you the time and cost of a complete recover of the wing. On the other hand, if you have serious structural damage to the wing, don't scrimp on fixing the structural damage just to save on paint and fabric. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) David Kulp wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Kulp" > > Hi Kolbers, > > A short time ago I posted a request for advice and cautions on repairing the right wing on my Ultrastar, which broke free from its tiedowns in a wind storm and flippen onto its right side. The photos I attached failed to make it with the post, so I got no response. Now I've got the photos, so what I'm mainly concerned with is whether and/or how to straighten the leading edge of the wing, which is bent about 1 1/2 inches in the first 8 feet or so. The other two damages I believe will be more straightforward, but I'd still appreciate advice with them, too. > > Thanks in advance!! > > Dave Kulp > Bethlehem, PA > bent Ultrastar > > Do not archive. > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/undoctor@rcn.com.06.01.2006/index.html > > > > > > > >