Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:19 AM - Sport pilot (tc1917)
2. 05:45 AM - 3 topics (Edward Steuber)
3. 06:12 AM - Re: 3 topics (John Hauck)
4. 09:41 AM - Re: First Flight (pat ladd)
5. 01:45 PM - Re: First Flight (Jack B. Hart)
6. 06:52 PM - Test - Getting Older?? (possums)
7. 08:54 PM - Re: Test - Getting Older?? (Bob Noyer)
8. 09:01 PM - Still fighting--- (frank & margie)
9. 09:49 PM - Re: Test - Getting Older?? (possums)
10. 10:12 PM - Re: Test - Getting Older?? (Mike Schnabel)
11. 10:18 PM - Re: Still fighting--- (jerb)
12. 11:29 PM - Re: First Flight (pat ladd)
13. 11:29 PM - Re: First Flight (pat ladd)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "tc1917" <tc1917@hughes.net>
I would like to mention and I must have somehow put the sport pilot info
page on the web but forgot to put the link on the index. it is not
complete. S.A.T.
I spent approximately $1000 getting my plane registered, airworthyness cert,
one hour pre-test flying time, 3 hours ground school, books, 2 days
hotels/meals, and examiner. if you have to take training, it will be
considerably more. get your plane ready while you are preping for the
final. ted cowan, alabama
Message 2
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#1.... A redrive for a Cuyuna powered Ultrastar can be had at ZDE in
Flat Rock Illinois or any Challenger dealer for the Rotax ( with the
tensioning type).
#2....Fuel Pumps on standard category general aviation FAA approved
aircraft , either electric or mechanical , are not nearly as dependable
as the small electric facets you guys are "discussing"...If you overhaul
a standard category Lycoming or Continental to the book you must
overhaul or replace with all new components such as carbs , magnetoes
or FUEL PUMPS...the overhaul times can range from 2500 down to 1800 or
as little as 1200 or less on other types such as radials.......
SOOOOO.......John Hauck ,IMHO, is correct with his assumption that the
inline electric and mechanical pumps are the best simple fuel delivery
system and as safe as you can get for our little Kolbs. If you don't
trust the small Facet electrics , then get an $ FAA $ approved electric
pump and see how far you get with that.... Or throw the units away at
500 hours and put new ones on ....or just taxi it around on the
ground...or don't even start the engine...just sit in it and then you
won't have to "risk " a failure...etc.
#3....Rigging or out of rig ...try measuring from the same point on
the rear spar on each wing tip to the same point on the vertical fin
post and you should have the same distance for correct alignment of the
boom and wings ...I have found GA and exp. planes with rigging
problems caused by poor repairs or initial building mistakes....(made a
few myself)
Know it all Ed in Western NY
Do not Archive
Message 3
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
#2....Fuel Pumps on standard category general aviation FAA approved
aircraft , either electric or mechanical , are not nearly as
dependable as the small electric facets you guys are "discussing"...
#3 I have found GA and exp. planes with rigging problems caused by
poor repairs or initial building mistakes....(made a few myself)
Know
it all Ed in Western NY
Morning "Know it all Ed in Western NY":
While I was doing a little nonprofessional reasearch about our little
Facet fuel pumps, ran across a Swift Aircraft Email List. Guess what?
Major topic of discussion was multitude of problems with certified
fuel pumps and using Facets as "boost" pumps. Some were running
Facets, even though they were not certified, at the risk of getting
snagged on an inspection, etc. I know Rotax 912 certified engines and
parts are identical in quality, because they are the same parts, with
the exception that certified parts have a serial number and are
tracked with a paper trail. I imagine this is also probably true in
GA aviation.
As imprecise as building, rigging and flying an experimental airplane
is, not surprised at all the trim problems we encounter. Doesn't take
much to get an imbalance in an airplane. First off, in a side by side
seating arrangement, the fat pilot with no passenger is going to cause
the wing on that side of the aircraft to drop and require quite a bit
of opposite stick to maintain level flight, especially on a cross
country flight. Lot's of times, flying around the patch, we do not
notice we have rigging problems. However, get out and fly for an hour
or two, maintaining something like a semblance of a heading, and all
kinds of trim and rigging problems will raise their ugly little heads.
In addition, I have never encountered a Kolb expert (someone who knows
all about Kolb aircraft), including the designer, and don't think I
ever will. There's too much to learn about these little airplanes to
ever consider anyone as an expert on them. Some of us have been
building and flying them a little longer than others, thereby
providing us with a lot more time to make a lot more mistakes and
discover a lot more question marks, but don't think we will ever find
a Kolb expert. I try to capitalize on mistakes and ideas of others,
and myself, to keep me and my mkIII flying enjoyably. If it ain't
fun, don't think I want to waste my time doing it.
Take care,
john h
mkIII (Going to try and find that crew from South Alabama that is
flying near my area today. Weather will be accentuated with normal
thunderstorms here in the South).
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
I would like to have Pat give us a flight comparison between his
Challenger and the Extra.>>
Hi All,
I think that a real comparison is a bit premature. After all I only have
four solo landings in the Kolb to my credit. A couple at the dealers field,
one at the refueling point on my home flight, and one at my home strip.
However first impressions are that ther Xtra has much better longitudanal
stability. Quite a lump of X-country was flown with my feet off the pedals.
I don`t think that would work of the Challenger. Of course it is difficult
to judge as you cannot take your feet off the pedals in the Challenger as
there is nowhere to put them Certainly it was nice to be able to stretch my
legs so I suppose that comfort must be a plus for the Kolb. Kolb seats are
better than the Challenger. Ailerons didn`t seem too heavy.
It was quite thermic flying home. Lumps of 8/9 knots on the vario. and it
was really no problem. In the Challenger, being a lighter machine, it would
have been quite rough.
Landing the Kolb has not been any more difficult than landing the
Challenger, so far. The tail has just touched down before the mains but
quite gently. The flap lever is awful. Having to reach across my body to the
right side with the left hand is just ridiculous. There has to be a better
way but it is very very difficult to change anything that major without
almost going through the entire engineering process again that I guess that
I shall just have to get used to it.
Being in the Kolb enclosure gave a quite spurious impression of safety
against the Challenger which I built without doors.
Bad part is that I have had the Kolb home for over a week now and have been
unable to fly as I have been to the coast. The weather has been great (of
course) and I was expecting to fly tomorrow, Sunday. However Wendy has just
told me that we are out to lunch tomorrow so that more or less b--gg---s up
the whole day as I have the plane folded up and rigging, flying and then de
rigging again is going to take too much time.
I really thought I had sold the Challenger and would be able to use my
hangar for the Xtra but the sale just fell through.!
Further reports in due course as I learn something about flying Kolbs.
Thanks to everyone for their best of luck messages.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 05:39 PM 6/24/06 +0100, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
........................................
>...................... Ailerons didn`t seem too heavy.
>
........................................
Pat,
How does this compare with the Challenger?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 6
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| Subject: | Test - Getting Older?? |
This is great - Go to here
http://www.fork.com/ringtones.php
Press "Mosquito Tones"
Keep pressing it till you get
the "preview screen". Turn up the sound.
Press it twice till it goes off.
You will probably be able to hear it?
But depending on how old you are - maybe not.
It will drive anyone under 14 years old crazy.
Even in the next room while you just barely notice it.
Now remember - I've got 1,800+ hrs. underneath a 2 cycle.
So I can hear it - but it doesn't bother me at all.
How about you guys??
Kolb related - hearing loss test - age - sport pilot - No
UK related - yes Pat.
A technology using ultra-high frequency sound to drive teenage
loiterers away from shopping centers in the U.K. has been hijacked by
tech-savvy teens to create an inaudible cell phone ring tone.
Students are employing the technology to surreptitiously use mobile
phones in class by creating ring tones that most adults cannot hear.
Do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Test - Getting Older?? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
Awww, yer crappin' me! Can't hear bugger all. What I'd like to
have...and would pay good $ for, is something that would shut the
damn things OFF!
In the early 30s, my late father was sitting in a restaurant where a
new-fangled juke box was blatting. He motioned the waitress, and
asked her "how much does that thing take to start it up?' She said,
just a nickel, sir. "so, if a nickel will start the damn thing, will
a dime stop it"?"
Curmudgeonly yers,
Bob N.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Still fighting--- |
Ref. the discussion on roll problems/rigging/etc., jerb wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Many different things can contribute to the flight characteristics
your experiencing. Sounds like a rigging problem. In order to
determine the likely cause it will be necessary to properly level the
aircraft in the proper attitude to take correct meaningful
measurements. This becomes a process of elimination. Refer to the
---------------------
John/all,
Sounds like the offset universal works, once you have eliminated
rigging problems as a cause---jerb's list would be a good guide.
There is another possibility that hasn't ever been mentioned in
discussions on roll problems in Kolbs. And this may not apply to
pushers, or planes with flaps. But it's worth thinking about. I had
the same problem on a non-Kolb (Flightstar), which is a tractor design,
and mine does not have flaps. It does have full-span ailerons. We
checked everything we could think of, or anybody we asked could think
of. Engine offset helped, but only a little. Reducing the droop in the
ailerons helped some, but didn't come close to fixing the problem. I
don't know where I got the idea, but I had a friend run the plane up
while I stood behind it (actually under the boom, about 2 feet behind
the aileron trailing edge). I held a piece of cardboard (maybe a foot
square) in the propwash---you could feel the difference between right
and left sides, there was a LOT more push on the cardboard on the left
side. Evidently the descending prop blade pushes more air even when on
the ground. And it evidently was pushing upward harder on the left
aileron, causing a roll to the left. This was true even when we
adjusted all the droop out of the ailerons---and they're supposed to be
set at 3 degrees.
We put a trim tab on the right aileron, with the outboard edge even
with the tip of the prop arc (this is way inboard of the usual location
for aileron tabs). Tab is about 12" wide, 2-1/2" deep, and only bent
down about 15-20 degrees. Result was hands off flying (as far as roll
was concerned, we also put a tab on the rudder to fix a small yaw
tendency).
How could this be true on a pusher? Especially with your descending
blade on the right? I don't know, but----your prop is pretty close to
the TE of your flaps---could the descending blade build up pressure
above the flap, pushing it down slightly? Could the ascending blade be
stronger on a Kolb, maybe resulting in a slight upward push on the left
flap (or aileron)? Is there enough play in the flap linkage to allow
movement? How close is the prop arc to the inboard end of the aileron?
I don't know how to check for thrust differential on a pusher---the
propwash isn't separated by the windscreen like it is on mine, and the
cardboard trick obviously won't work. Wonder what smoke would show about
the airflow around the prop? Just food for thought. Having been there,
I know what you're going thru.
Good luck.
Frank Clyma
Orange Park, FL
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Test - Getting Older?? |
At 11:52 PM 6/24/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Noyer <a58r@verizon.net>
>
>Awww, yer crappin' me! Can't hear bugger all
No Bob, it's there and it's loud to a teenager, just not to you.
Catch one and see.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Test - Getting Older?? |
Good one Bob! I love that story!
Mike S
PS: I will get the Kold Demo tape back to you, had huge issues with the DVD burner,
then the work Japan trip.... whew... Going to LA next week, once back,
all will be normal again (I hope)!
do not archive
Bob Noyer <a58r@verizon.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bob Noyer
Awww, yer crappin' me! Can't hear bugger all. What I'd like to
have...and would pay good $ for, is something that would shut the
damn things OFF!
In the early 30s, my late father was sitting in a restaurant where a
new-fangled juke box was blatting. He motioned the waitress, and
asked her "how much does that thing take to start it up?' She said,
just a nickel, sir. "so, if a nickel will start the damn thing, will
a dime stop it"?"
Curmudgeonly yers,
Bob N.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
---------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Still fighting--- |
Frank, A Kolb if it has been built straight or any properly design
aircraft for that matter, shouldn't need any major trim tabs, you may
have masked the symptom but you never determined or corrected the root cause.
Some thing major is in play with this guys airplane based upon his comments.
jerb
At 11:00 PM 6/24/2006, you wrote:
>Ref. the discussion on roll problems/rigging/etc., jerb wrote:
>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: still fighting
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb
><<mailto:ulflyer@verizon.net>ulflyer@verizon.net>
>
>Many different things can contribute to the flight characteristics
>your experiencing. Sounds like a rigging problem. In order to
>determine the likely cause it will be necessary to properly level the
>aircraft in the proper attitude to take correct meaningful
>measurements. This becomes a process of elimination. Refer to the
>
>---------------------
>John/all,
> Sounds like the offset universal works, once you have
> eliminated rigging problems as a cause---jerb's list would be a good guide.
>
> There is another possibility that hasn't ever been mentioned in
> discussions on roll problems in Kolbs. And this may not apply to
> pushers, or planes with flaps. But it's worth thinking about. I
> had the same problem on a non-Kolb (Flightstar), which is a tractor
> design, and mine does not have flaps. It does have full-span
> ailerons. We checked everything we could think of, or anybody we
> asked could think of. Engine offset helped, but only a little.
> Reducing the droop in the ailerons helped some, but didn't come
> close to fixing the problem. I don't know where I got the idea,
> but I had a friend run the plane up while I stood behind it
> (actually under the boom, about 2 feet behind the aileron trailing
> edge). I held a piece of cardboard (maybe a foot square) in the
> propwash---you could feel the difference between right and left
> sides, there was a LOT more push on the cardboard on the left
> side. Evidently the descending prop blade pushes more air even
> when on the ground. And it evidently was pushing upward harder on
> the left aileron, causing a roll to the left. This was true even
> when we adjusted all the droop out of the ailerons---and they're
> supposed to be set at 3 degrees.
>
> We put a trim tab on the right aileron, with the outboard edge
> even with the tip of the prop arc (this is way inboard of the usual
> location for aileron tabs). Tab is about 12" wide, 2-1/2" deep,
> and only bent down about 15-20 degrees. Result was hands off
> flying (as far as roll was concerned, we also put a tab on the
> rudder to fix a small yaw tendency).
>
> How could this be true on a pusher? Especially with your
> descending blade on the right? I don't know, but----your prop is
> pretty close to the TE of your flaps---could the descending blade
> build up pressure above the flap, pushing it down slightly? Could
> the ascending blade be stronger on a Kolb, maybe resulting in a
> slight upward push on the left flap (or aileron)? Is there enough
> play in the flap linkage to allow movement? How close is the prop
> arc to the inboard end of the aileron? I don't know how to check
> for thrust differential on a pusher---the propwash isn't separated
> by the windscreen like it is on mine, and the cardboard trick
> obviously won't work. Wonder what smoke would show about the
> airflow around the prop? Just food for thought. Having been
> there, I know what you're going thru.
>
>Good luck.
>
>Frank Clyma
>Orange Park, FL
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
How does this compare with the Challenger?>>
Hi Jack,
this was regarding ailerons. It is not just the weight of the ailerons. The
Kolb will be heavy in roll without the use of rudder.. The Challenger wont
go round AT ALL without a bootful of leading rudder.
On the other hand a Challenger will sideslip beautifully. I think the Kolb
with full flap will go down almost as steeply I just haven`t the ecperience
yet, but I like to sideslip.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
--
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "pat ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Bet your oil pressure problem is the sender>>
Thanks John,
we tested that. Also putting an extra washer under the spring and switching
to a different viscosity oil. No joy. It may be the instrument itself. We
will make it in time. Seemed to make no difference to the engine .
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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