---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/26/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:35 AM - Re: Big Lar visit (jimhefner) 2. 01:59 PM - Re: Big Lar visit (biglar) 3. 04:14 PM - serial number (john s. flannery) 4. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Big Lar visit (Bob Dalton) 5. 05:09 PM - Re: serial number (John Hauck) 6. 05:41 PM - Re: serial number (robert bean) 7. 06:12 PM - Re: serial number (john s. flannery) 8. 07:04 PM - MkIII, suzuki G10 (Eugene Zimmerman) 9. 07:05 PM - Re: Still fighting--- (The BaronVonEvil) 10. 07:27 PM - Re: serial number (Richard Pike) 11. 07:47 PM - Gnats (frank & margie) 12. 08:06 PM - Assumptions--- (frank & margie) 13. 10:42 PM - Twin Engine Firestar 2 (Dave Bigelow) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:51 AM PST US From: "jimhefner" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Big Lar visit --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jimhefner" Bob, where's he headed (furthest destination) this time? -------- Jim Hefner Tucson, AZ Firefly #022 447, 2 blade IVO, BRS-750 Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=43114#43114 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:09 PM PST US From: "biglar" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Big Lar visit --> Kolb-List message posted by: "biglar" Thanks for the nice shot, Bob. I've had a heck of a time finding internet access, and finally have found a WiFi connection at Kinko's in Medford, OR. Truck is losing the lift pump and it's in the shop here and won't be done till late tomorrow. I sure do hate to lose vacation time over something like this. I had a nice brunch with Roger Hankins this morning, and got to talk planes again for a bit. The truck has 98,500 miles on it now, and I need to have this fixed right away, before I go over the 100,000 mile warranty limit. I'm trying to duplicate last year's trip to central and coastal British Columbia, ( http://www.webpictures.homestead.com/bc05.html ) and hoping for better weather than last year. Thanks. Lar Do not Achive. -------- Larry Bourne Palm Springs, CA Building Kolb Mk IIIC "Vamoose" Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=43196#43196 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:15 PM PST US From: "john s. flannery" Subject: Kolb-List: serial number This is what I was told a while ago about finding the serial number for the Mark III of nil repute and haven't it found yet. "When you get your MK3 cage, it will be stamped on the end of the root tube." So I sanded off the heavy black paint on butt end of root tube under engine mount facing prop and if I am in the right place ,as you see it, has been removed or was not stamped. Wouldn't mind knowing more about this bird and want it legal as well as airworthy (which is coming along). Do not archive. jsf ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:57 PM PST US From: "Bob Dalton" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Big Lar visit Hi Jim, Looks as though "Big Lar" answered your question already, just wanted to say hello. Take care, Bob D. Do not archive -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimhefner Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 7:34 AM --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jimhefner" Bob, where's he headed (furthest destination) this time? -------- Jim Hefner Tucson, AZ Firefly #022 447, 2 blade IVO, BRS-750 Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=43114#43114 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:43 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: serial number --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" John: Very unusual engine mounting hardware. Not what is called for for Kolb's. First batch of MKIII cages didn't get a serial number stamped on the root tube. My serial number is M3-011. Number 11 to come off the line. There is no serial number plate or stamped on my airframe. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:07 PM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Re: Kolb-List: serial number --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean John, any number found on the engine mount or anywhere on the cage is not a serial number. Mine has a number stamped on it but that was only for production purposes. If yours was ever registered with the Feds they will have a history of the plane's serial number and owners. Don't know if is still available on the FAA website but you can browse through all the Kolbs to avoid picking an already used number. Then just make one up. -If you are the manufacturer. That is what the data plate is for. BB, MkIII, suzuki G10, 53.1 hrs. On 26, Jun 2006, at 7:10 PM, john s. flannery wrote: > > > This is what I was told a while ago about finding the serial > numberfor the Mark III of nil repute and haven't it found yet. > > "When you get your MK3 cage, it will be stamped on the end of the > root tube." > > So I sanded off the heavy black paint on butt end of root tube under > engine mount facing prop and if I am in the right place ,as you see > it, has been removed or was not stamped. > > Wouldn't mind knowing more about this bird and want it legal as well > as airworthy (which is coming along). > > Do not archive. > > jsf ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:51 PM PST US From: "john s. flannery" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: serial number --> Kolb-List message posted by: "john s. flannery" Thanks for clarification. Wanted to find something, so Kolb could help me sort it out. History is veiled with only a meaningless group of numbers and letters on the boom put there after the last paint job. jsf ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 5:39 PM > --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean > > John, any number found on the engine mount or anywhere on the cage is > not a serial number. Mine has a number stamped on it but that was only > for production purposes. If yours was ever registered with the Feds they > will > have a history of the plane's serial number and owners. > Don't know if is still available on the FAA website but you can browse > through > all the Kolbs to avoid picking an already used number. Then just make one > up. > -If you are the manufacturer. That is what the data plate is for. > BB, MkIII, suzuki G10, 53.1 hrs. > > On 26, Jun 2006, at 7:10 PM, john s. flannery wrote: > >> >> This is what I was told a while ago about finding the serial number for >> the Mark III of nil repute and haven't it found yet. >> >> "When you get your MK3 cage, it will be stamped on the end of the root >> tube." >> >> So I sanded off the heavy black paint on butt end of root tube under >> engine mount facing prop and if I am in the right place ,as you see it, >> has been removed or was not stamped. >> >> Wouldn't mind knowing more about this bird and want it legal as well as >> airworthy (which is coming along). >> >> Do not archive. >> >> jsf > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:46 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Kolb-List: MkIII, suzuki G10 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman Bob, Can you please give us your current assessment of the suzuki performance on your Mk III? Climb? Cruise? Fuel burn? Smoothness/ vibration? How do you feel it compares to rotax? Are you pleased with engine or do you have any major disappointments or failed expectations with it? Is there anything you would do differently if you were powering another kolb? I'd be interested in your current preference of reduction ratio and prop size, as well as gear or belt drive? As you can tell I am very interested in the geo/ suzuki engine option. On Jun 26, 2006, at 8:39 PM, robert bean wrote: > BB, MkIII, suzuki G10, 53.1 hrs. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:54 PM PST US From: "The BaronVonEvil" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Still fighting--- --> Kolb-List message posted by: "The BaronVonEvil" Hi All, On an Item of note regarding "Still Fighting". I have a Firestar II that I bought used a few years ago. It flew quite well and without trim. About two vears ago I decided to recover the fuselage due to some wear and tear of the fabric and primer failure issues. I thought about repriming the fuselage cage with epoxy primer as had the original builder. However I decided to have the cage powder coated for the better durability it offers. After completion I flew my Firestar only to find out that now I had a right wing heavy issue and needed lots of trim. I didnt change anything on the wings or struts. I bought the English Ujoints and corrected the problem by changing the incidence of the left wing. ( It took three washers in the joint). Apparently during the powdercoat process of heating up the cage to make the material flow, the heat (400+ degrees) allowed the cage to relax enough here and there to change the incidence between the wing panels. So if you are thinking of powdercoating your cage, it is highly advisable that you do so at the start of construction. Otherwise you may end up retrimming your plane as I had to. Thanks for the Great Kolb Forum The Baron Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=43258#43258 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/english_u_joint_142.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:29 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: serial number --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike You might want to put up a couple good clear pictures of your motor mount setup. John H is right, something is really non-standard, maybe we could take a look? Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) john s. flannery wrote: ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:03 PM PST US From: "frank & margie" Subject: Kolb-List: Gnats Ref: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike The prop does create a bias as you describe. Note the sides of the fuselage just ahead of the prop, the gnats are plastered on the right fuselage side, and the underside of the left flap, but not on the left side of the fuselage, or the underside of the right flap. ------------------------------------ Richard, I think I'll go with jerb's explanation------ I've been lurking on this list long enough so's I should know what engine setup you have, but seeing how my memory is no longer functional, please let me know what engine/redrive/prop you use. Your info is real interesting, and I want to think on it some more. Thanks, Frank Clyma ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:56 PM PST US From: "frank & margie" Subject: Kolb-List: Assumptions--- Ref. John Hauck's comment: Decending blade may not be on the right, depending on what type engine is powering the airplane and whether it is turning through a gear box or belt drive. Rotax 2 strokes rotate opposite direction 4 strokes. ---------------------------------------- John, You've got me on that one, I assumed Rotax 2stroke/gearbox----and I know about the definition of "assume". I think the differential airflow possibility would exist in any case, but the roll effect might be in the opposite direction. I wouldn't have believed it could exert such a strong effect, which is why I shared the info. The difference made by the trim tab is like night and day----holding constant side stick pressure, especially right side, gets uncomfortable pretty quickly. Frank Clyma ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:44 PM PST US From: "Dave Bigelow" Subject: Kolb-List: Twin Engine Firestar 2 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" Several months back, I posted my intention to install two Hirth F-33 engines on my Firestar 2. The design goal was to end up with an aircraft that could at least maintain altitude on one engine and get to a landing spot if one of the engines failed. The main issues I anticipated were vibration and the possible interaction of the overlapped propellers. The engines were mounted on two struts that were secured to a flat plate that was mounted on the original Lord engine mounts. In turn, the engines were flat plate mounted on their own set of mounts. The right engine uses a prop extender to put the 53 inch Powerfin two blade prop 4 inches behind the left engine prop and allow the overlap. Each engine is mounted 16 inches from the aircraft center line, and each propeller clears the aileron on its side by several inches. The whole installation including the mounting system (excluding battery) weighs almost exactly the same as the Rotax 503. The interaction of the two propellers crossing each other in opposite directions at the overlap was pretty much a gamble. I couldnt find any information whether or not it would work. In the early 80s, I had the chance to do some thrust tests on the twin engine setup of the Para Plane powered parachute. The Para Plane installation was very well designed with two small single cylinder (Solo, if I remember correctly) engines mounted on both sides of a central set of concentric prop shafts. The engines were connected to each shaft with a belt drive, and the props counter-rotated several inches apart. We wanted to find out if the two counter-rotating props would affect each other at various RPMs of the two engines. Interestingly enough, there was no measurable affect. With both engines running at full RPM, the thrust (150 lb) was twice that of when one engine (75 lb) was run alone. With that knowledge in my pocket, I figured overlapping props crossing in opposite directions would probably not interact appreciably. It took several months of part time work to get the mounts set up and the throttles/choke, fuel system, and electrical system set up. When all that was complete, I tied the Firestar securely, and started and broke in the engines. I had some jetting issues because of being at 5,000 feet density altitude. Matt Dandar, the owner of Recreational Power Engineering (where I purchased the F-33s) gave me good technical support, and I got the engines running quite well. With a spring scale tied to the tail wheel area, each engine measured about 150 lbs of static thrust when run alone. The vibration level was about what you would expect from a single cylinder engine not unreasonable at all. However, when both engines were run together at high RPM, the thrust was only a little over 200 pounds, and the vibration level was high. It appeared that the area where the props overlapped and crossed was too turbulent for the props to work efficiently. I had to wait several weeks for the local winds to drop below 10 mph, but finally had several days with light winds. I trailered the Firestar to the Waimea Airport, which has almost a mile of paved runway. My grass strip at home is only 700 feet long, and is not ideal for testing a modification of this magnitude. Takeoff confirmed the static thrust test info. The thrust was not nearly equal to the Rotax 503, and it should have been greater. I climbed to a couple of thousand feet above the airport and alternately put one engine to idle, and the other to full throttle. The yaw was easily controlled with rudder and I could just maintain level flight. Vibration was about the same as with the Rotax 503. With both engines anywhere above 4,500 RPM, the vibration was severe enough that eventually something on the plane would fail. I did a touch and go, and a full stop and called it a day. The experiment was a failure, and I really dont see that there is much I can do to fix it. I think it would work if the engines could be moved far enough apart to eliminate the propeller overlap, but that would require bigger struts (more weight and drag). Also, the aileron gap would have to be extended (shorter ailerons) to provide sufficient clearance for the props. I hate to post the details of a failed experiment for the world to pick apart, but believe it is good to get the info in the archives in case someone else in the future has the same idea. I think it could be made to work with a concentric shaft counter-rotating setup like the Para Plane, but I dont have the machine shop resources available to build it. Guess Ill remount the Rotax 503 and go fly. Mine has never missed a beat, and hopefully will continue in that mode. In the meantime, Im looking at the HKS 700E. As a footnote, the Hirth F-33 engines are beautifully engineered packages, and Im in no way being critical of them. They are good engines, and Matt Dandar of RPE backs up and supports his product. They would be my first choice as a light weight compact package for a single place trike, powered parachute, or other Part 103 legal ultralight. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=43287#43287 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/twin_hirth_f_33_firestar08_142.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/twin_hirth_f_33_firestar07_214.jpg