Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:25 AM - Re: fuel mix (Dave Bigelow)
2. 03:09 AM - twin engine Flyer on Barnstormers (Scott Perkins)
3. 05:13 AM - Re: twin engine Flyer on Barnstormers (David Lehman)
4. 06:56 AM - Re: fuel mix (TheWanderingWench)
5. 11:15 AM - Re: fuel mix (Wayne T. McCullough)
6. 12:46 PM - Re: fuel mix (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
7. 01:17 PM - Oil compatability (Richard Girard)
8. 02:35 PM - Re: Oil compatability (possums)
9. 02:48 PM - Re: fuel mix (Jim Baker)
10. 02:56 PM - Re: Oil compatability (John Hauck)
11. 03:20 PM - First airplane ()
12. 05:27 PM - Re: First airplane (David Key)
13. 05:33 PM - Re: First airplane (Mike Schnabel)
14. 06:07 PM - Re: fuel mix (George E. Thompson)
15. 06:08 PM - fuel mix (Arksey@aol.com)
16. 07:19 PM - Ultra Star (ray anderson)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
Jim,
Probly not a good idea with Rotax two stroke engines. The amsoil leaves a sticky
gunky black deposit which tends to cause the rings to get sticky, resulting
in high cylinder head temperatures.
You can't go wrong with California Power System's AV2 oil or Pensoil Two Stroke
Oil for Air-Cooled Engine. There are a number of other good two stroke oils
out there that people swear by. The subject is kind of like politics or religion!
> Hello group,
> ?? Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) synthetic 2 cycle oil mix
100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it?
> ???? Thanks??? Jim Swan
> ?
>
> Jim Swan in Michigan
> will soon have a Kolb FS
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=46838#46838
Message 2
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| Subject: | twin engine Flyer on Barnstormers |
A pretty good looking Flyer for sale - $4500 ( I think?)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: twin engine Flyer on Barnstormers |
Unique machine...
I'm pretty sure that this is the same Flyer that didn't sell on eBay once
before...
Too bad that the wings don't fold, a Kolb trademark...
DVD
On 7/13/06, Scott Perkins <2scott@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> A pretty good looking Flyer for sale - $4500 ( I think?)
>
>
--
"Attitude is everything ~ pick a good one"...
Message 4
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench@yahoo.com>
Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most
comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax
2-stroke engines. (He's written articles about the
topic.) Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the
topic. My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of
the 100-1 oils. He reminded us that oil has two
purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1
formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling
end.
His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran
them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said
that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke
Rotax. It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3
formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor
oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the
gas tank before switching. I think if you contact
Lockwood Aviation (1-800-LA-ROTAX) they'll send you a
copy of the article.
Penzoil air-cooled is hard to find - so when I go on
long cross-country flights, I switch to Penzoil
outboard; since it's compatible with all other TC-W3
oils, you can use ANY TC-W3 oil if you're out in the
sticks and can't find Penzoil outboard motor oil.
As someone else on this list responded, oil selection
is as contentious a topic as religion or politics.
Arty
--- Arksey@aol.com wrote:
> Hello group,
> Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP)
> synthetic 2 cycle oil mix
> 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it?
> Thanks Jim Swan
>
>
> Jim Swan in Michigan
> will soon have a Kolb FS
>
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
Message 5
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wayne T. McCullough" <blackbird754@alltel.net>
I think the article you are referring to was in a magazine with 2 strokes
mounted on a trailer.....12 years in ultralights and I have always used the
Penzoil air cooled even with a water cooled engine...
The article also showed the inside components after a certain number of
hours ....
It was great...
Wayne McCullough
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 9:54 AM
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: TheWanderingWench
> <thewanderingwench@yahoo.com>
>
> Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most
> comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax
> 2-stroke engines. (He's written articles about the
> topic.) Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the
> topic. My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of
> the 100-1 oils. He reminded us that oil has two
> purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1
> formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling
> end.
>
> His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran
> them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said
> that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke
> Rotax. It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3
> formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor
> oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the
> gas tank before switching. I think if you contact
> Lockwood Aviation (1-800-LA-ROTAX) they'll send you a
> copy of the article.
>
> Penzoil air-cooled is hard to find - so when I go on
> long cross-country flights, I switch to Penzoil
> outboard; since it's compatible with all other TC-W3
> oils, you can use ANY TC-W3 oil if you're out in the
> sticks and can't find Penzoil outboard motor oil.
>
> As someone else on this list responded, oil selection
> is as contentious a topic as religion or politics.
>
> Arty
>
> --- Arksey@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Hello group,
>> Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP)
>> synthetic 2 cycle oil mix
>> 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it?
>> Thanks Jim Swan
>>
>>
>> Jim Swan in Michigan
>> will soon have a Kolb FS
>>
>
>
> www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com
>
> "Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
> Helen Keller
>
> "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
>
>
>
Message 6
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I feel the same way about what it says in the book I am flying the 447 with
359 hours and no problems and the key word ( yet ) and a new engine on the
shelve also, but I dont want to put it on untill its time or when someone buys
it
then I will sell it with a new engine and keep the old engine for my next
Firestar project thats on its way ,I have heard of others on the list running a
two stroker alot longer than what the book says and as long as it keeps working
great I plan on running it untill the vitals start running low on the
inspections
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Oil compatability |
Having just run tanks of TW-3 oil, Valvoline and Pennsoil Marine, while
running Pennsoil Air Cooled, can someone provide a link to the Lockwood
article on Rotax 2 stroke oils?
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Oil compatability |
At 04:13 PM 7/13/2006, you wrote:
>Having just run tanks of TW-3 oil, Valvoline and Pennsoil Marine,
>while running Pennsoil Air Cooled, can someone provide a link to the
>Lockwood article on Rotax 2 stroke oils?
Oil Test
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm
Message 9
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X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.31)
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net>
I tried to resist.......Auuuggghhhh!!!! Couldn't do it.....
First....
This is not an advertisement for 100:1 oils
Second.....
> As someone else on this list responded, oil selection
> is as contentious a topic as religion or politics.
Oil performance is quantifiable when exposed to rigorous testing
and objective investigation. The other two.....
> Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most
> comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax
> 2-stroke engines. (He's written articles about the
> topic.) Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the
> topic. My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of
> the 100-1 oils. He reminded us that oil has two
> purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1
> formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling
> end.
A quote from an article that referenced these tests...
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm
____________________________________
Four different oils were chosen for the test. The oils
tested were:
1) Pennzoil" Two-Cycle Air-Cooled Engine Oil;
2) Pennzoil' Premium Out- board and Multi-purpose Two
Cycle Oil;
3) A conventional petroleum two-cycle oil; and
4) A two-cycle synthetic oil.
______________________________
How does one arrive at the position that 100:1 ratios,
using oils formulated for 100:1 operation, will not cool
adequately if none are tested?
Further on in the article....
______________________________
It is worthy to note that many pilots using synthetic oil
may mix at a higher (leaner) fuel/oil ratio than the
engine manufacturer may specify. Synthetic oils tend to
work well against deposit formation at these higher
ratios, however engine manufacturers generally state
that the higher (leaner) oil ratio may not provide
enough residual protection from corrosion during
extended storage conditions. Therefore, all oils run in
this test were run at the manufacturer's recommended
fuel/oil ratio of 50: 1.
_________________________________
Here is the possible start point for extrapolating
inadequate cooling from higher oil ratios when 50:1 oils
are used at higher ratios. False analogy, non sequiter,
and appeal to authority are not bases for scientific
proof.
This is what Pennzoil (Shell) claims in their Technical
Info letter P-15-A as the rationale for their air cooled
oils (the bold is my highlighting).....
________________________________________
Air cooled two-cycle engines are often idle or operate at
low output between bursts of high output
use. The idle time and infrequent high output use results
in lower average piston temperatures than
outboard engines. This results in less oil thinning in air
cooled engines.
The continued variations in speeds and the physical
punishment that these engines experience play a
key role in breaking off ash deposits that are formed by
detergent additives in two-cycle oils.
Consequently, detergent additives used in two-cycle oils do
not harm air cooled two-cycle engines.
Since air cooled engines have extensive idle and low
output operating time and lower average piston
temperatures, they do not always completely burn the
heavier oil that may be present in two-cycle oils.
This partially burned heavy oil causes carbon buildup in
exhaust ports and the exhaust system.
Buildup of these deposits causes loss of power.
________________________________________
Does this sound like your air-cooled two stroke engine?
Lots of idle time? Extensive low output time? Infrequent
high-output time?
Moving on......
> His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran
> them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said
> that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke
> Rotax.
"Best" is a relative term when one only tests four oils. As for TC-
W3 certification....
__________________________________________
TC-W3 lubricant, an NMMA owned trademark, has
evolved over the years through much testing and research,
and has proven to be the level of quality to satisfy the above
objectives. And, going a step further, now that two cycle
engines have moved towards higher cylinder temperatures
and compressions, this lubricant also meets the EPA
emissions reductions.
TC-W3 has demonstrated the necessary lubrication
performance quality needed for these more demanding
cylinder/engine conditions.
NMMA licenses those two cycle lubricants that meet the
stringent performance tests conducted by a sanctioned
laboratory approved by NMMA to conduct the tests.
__________________________________________
This is the list of TC-W3 certified oils......
http://tinyurl.com/ko6dq
> It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3
> formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor
> oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the
> gas tank before switching.
Based on the following from Pennzoil....
_______________________________
Pennzoil has three oils for two-cycle engines, Premium
Outboard And Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM,
Advanced-Performance Snowmobile Oil and 2-Cycle Air
Cooled Engine Oil, each specifically designed for different
applications. Care should be taken to avoid mixing the
various two-cycle oils together, especially when converting
a customer from one product to the other product.
Pennzoil Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle
Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced- Performance Snowmobile Oil
contain ashless dispersant additives, whereas Pennzoil 2-
Cycle Air Cooled Engine Oil contains a low-ash detergent
additive.
As a general rule, ash-containing two-cycle oils should not
be mixed with ashless two-cycle oils, as their additives may
be incompatible with each other. This would apply not only
to Pennzoil's two-cycle products, but to all two-cycle oils on
the market. Since Pennzoil Premium Outboard And Multi-
Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced-
Performance Snowmobile Oil are ashless formulations,
mixing of these products with an ash-containing product
should be avoided.
_______________________________________________
Arty is correct on this point. I can only take Pennzoil's
admonition at face value.
Those of us using 50:1 oils that do not have a Pennzoil label
and those of us using 100:1 oils recognize how thin the
argument is that any one oil is best. Interesting to note that
Lockwood doesn't specify which two stroke oil they sell on
their WEB site. If Air Cooled oil were best for air cooled
engines, why not carry both?
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Oil compatability |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
| http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm
Possum and others:
Notice what rpm they used for cruise. Looks like the same one I used
to use back in the old two stroke days of aviation:
johnh
mkIII Table 2
Operating conditions per hour of operation - 280 hours
total
Idle
5 minutes
Take Off - Full Power
4 minutes
Cruise - 5800 rpm
47 minutes
Descent and landing - 4000 rpm
4 minutes
Message 11
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: <kfackler@ameritech.net>
Brother and Sister Aviators:
Thanks to everyone who responded to the First Airplane poll. If we could get
those who didn't supply me with the year, and possibly a few of the lurkers
to chime in as well, I believe the cumulative total of years of flying
experience for this group might just top 2000 years. Yep, you read that
right, 2000. We're at over 1800 now.
So, this is a final plea. If you haven't sent your info, please email me
direct at kfackler@ameritech.net with your full name, first airplane you
flew as PIC, and the year.
Again for reference, the website is:
http://www.kfackler.com/kolb/first_plane.html
-Ken Fackler
Kolb Mark II / A722KWF
Rochester MI
do not archive
Message 12
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" <dhkey@msn.com>
1980
>From: <kfackler@ameritech.net>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kolb-List: First airplane
>Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 18:16:40 -0400
>
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: <kfackler@ameritech.net>
>
>Brother and Sister Aviators:
>
>Thanks to everyone who responded to the First Airplane poll. If we could
>get
>those who didn't supply me with the year, and possibly a few of the lurkers
>to chime in as well, I believe the cumulative total of years of flying
>experience for this group might just top 2000 years. Yep, you read that
>right, 2000. We're at over 1800 now.
>
>So, this is a final plea. If you haven't sent your info, please email me
>direct at kfackler@ameritech.net with your full name, first airplane you
>flew as PIC, and the year.
>
>Again for reference, the website is:
>http://www.kfackler.com/kolb/first_plane.html
>
>-Ken Fackler
>Kolb Mark II / A722KWF
>Rochester MI
>
>do not archive
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: First airplane |
Thanks Ken for a GREAT question that started an avalanche of replies. And for taking
the time to document them to the Internet and sharing with us all. It was
a simple yet amazing question that I know I have enjoyed following the responses
to, as I am sure many of the listers here have also! Great job!!!
Mike S
Manchester, TN
do not archive
kfackler@ameritech.net wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by:
Brother and Sister Aviators:
Thanks to everyone who responded to the First Airplane poll. If we could get
those who didn't supply me with the year, and possibly a few of the lurkers
to chime in as well, I believe the cumulative total of years of flying
experience for this group might just top 2000 years. Yep, you read that
right, 2000. We're at over 1800 now.
So, this is a final plea. If you haven't sent your info, please email me
direct at kfackler@ameritech.net with your full name, first airplane you
flew as PIC, and the year.
Again for reference, the website is:
http://www.kfackler.com/kolb/first_plane.html
-Ken Fackler
Kolb Mark II / A722KWF
Rochester MI
do not archive
---------------------------------
Message 14
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George E. Thompson" <eagle1@commspeed.net>
For what it's worth (2 cents?) I have used Pennzoil air cooled oil in all my
Rotex 247 and 503's for approx. 700 hrs and have never had a stuck ring nor
cleaned the carbon.
Az Bald Eagle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 2:43 PM
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net>
I tried to resist.......Auuuggghhhh!!!! Couldn't do it.....
First....
This is not an advertisement for 100:1 oils
Second.....
> As someone else on this list responded, oil selection
> is as contentious a topic as religion or politics.
Oil performance is quantifiable when exposed to rigorous testing
and objective investigation. The other two.....
> Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most
> comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax
> 2-stroke engines. (He's written articles about the
> topic.) Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the
> topic. My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of
> the 100-1 oils. He reminded us that oil has two
> purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1
> formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling
> end.
A quote from an article that referenced these tests...
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm
____________________________________
Four different oils were chosen for the test. The oils
tested were:
1) Pennzoil" Two-Cycle Air-Cooled Engine Oil;
2) Pennzoil' Premium Out- board and Multi-purpose Two
Cycle Oil;
3) A conventional petroleum two-cycle oil; and
4) A two-cycle synthetic oil.
______________________________
How does one arrive at the position that 100:1 ratios,
using oils formulated for 100:1 operation, will not cool
adequately if none are tested?
Further on in the article....
______________________________
It is worthy to note that many pilots using synthetic oil
may mix at a higher (leaner) fuel/oil ratio than the
engine manufacturer may specify. Synthetic oils tend to
work well against deposit formation at these higher
ratios, however engine manufacturers generally state
that the higher (leaner) oil ratio may not provide
enough residual protection from corrosion during
extended storage conditions. Therefore, all oils run in
this test were run at the manufacturer's recommended
fuel/oil ratio of 50: 1.
_________________________________
Here is the possible start point for extrapolating
inadequate cooling from higher oil ratios when 50:1 oils
are used at higher ratios. False analogy, non sequiter,
and appeal to authority are not bases for scientific
proof.
This is what Pennzoil (Shell) claims in their Technical
Info letter P-15-A as the rationale for their air cooled
oils (the bold is my highlighting).....
________________________________________
Air cooled two-cycle engines are often idle or operate at
low output between bursts of high output
use. The idle time and infrequent high output use results
in lower average piston temperatures than
outboard engines. This results in less oil thinning in air
cooled engines.
The continued variations in speeds and the physical
punishment that these engines experience play a
key role in breaking off ash deposits that are formed by
detergent additives in two-cycle oils.
Consequently, detergent additives used in two-cycle oils do
not harm air cooled two-cycle engines.
Since air cooled engines have extensive idle and low
output operating time and lower average piston
temperatures, they do not always completely burn the
heavier oil that may be present in two-cycle oils.
This partially burned heavy oil causes carbon buildup in
exhaust ports and the exhaust system.
Buildup of these deposits causes loss of power.
________________________________________
Does this sound like your air-cooled two stroke engine?
Lots of idle time? Extensive low output time? Infrequent
high-output time?
Moving on......
> His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran
> them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said
> that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke
> Rotax.
"Best" is a relative term when one only tests four oils. As for TC-
W3 certification....
__________________________________________
TC-W3 lubricant, an NMMA owned trademark, has
evolved over the years through much testing and research,
and has proven to be the level of quality to satisfy the above
objectives. And, going a step further, now that two cycle
engines have moved towards higher cylinder temperatures
and compressions, this lubricant also meets the EPA
emissions reductions.
TC-W3 has demonstrated the necessary lubrication
performance quality needed for these more demanding
cylinder/engine conditions.
NMMA licenses those two cycle lubricants that meet the
stringent performance tests conducted by a sanctioned
laboratory approved by NMMA to conduct the tests.
__________________________________________
This is the list of TC-W3 certified oils......
http://tinyurl.com/ko6dq
> It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3
> formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor
> oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the
> gas tank before switching.
Based on the following from Pennzoil....
_______________________________
Pennzoil has three oils for two-cycle engines, Premium
Outboard And Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM,
Advanced-Performance Snowmobile Oil and 2-Cycle Air
Cooled Engine Oil, each specifically designed for different
applications. Care should be taken to avoid mixing the
various two-cycle oils together, especially when converting
a customer from one product to the other product.
Pennzoil Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle
Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced- Performance Snowmobile Oil
contain ashless dispersant additives, whereas Pennzoil 2-
Cycle Air Cooled Engine Oil contains a low-ash detergent
additive.
As a general rule, ash-containing two-cycle oils should not
be mixed with ashless two-cycle oils, as their additives may
be incompatible with each other. This would apply not only
to Pennzoil's two-cycle products, but to all two-cycle oils on
the market. Since Pennzoil Premium Outboard And Multi-
Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced-
Performance Snowmobile Oil are ashless formulations,
mixing of these products with an ash-containing product
should be avoided.
_______________________________________________
Arty is correct on this point. I can only take Pennzoil's
admonition at face value.
Those of us using 50:1 oils that do not have a Pennzoil label
and those of us using 100:1 oils recognize how thin the
argument is that any one oil is best. Interesting to note that
Lockwood doesn't specify which two stroke oil they sell on
their WEB site. If Air Cooled oil were best for air cooled
engines, why not carry both?
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Message 15
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Hello group,
I want to thank everyone for their input of my question, which was if
anyone was using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) SYNTHETIC 2 CYCLE oil at 100-1
mix in a rotax 503 ...There is a wealth of experence and knowledge in this
group. Possum's you sure have put some time in the air, hope to meet you some
day, and Arty I have read some of your accounts of your cross country
flights and I found them very enjoyable...what got me interested in our type of
aircraft was a flight I took in a 2 place Drifter in Sebring Fl with Jeff Hudson
a couple of years ago. The Drifter had Lotus floats and wheels and what a
wonderful flight it was, I could not get over the visibilty and that is why I
decided to look for that type of aircraft and decided on a Kolb firestar. I
spend the winters at Sebring and have met Phil Lockwood and have great respect
for his judgement and knowledge... Thanks again to all...Jim Swan
Jim Swan in Michigan
will soon have a Kolb FS
Message 16
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ALL,
Regretfully it appears that I may have to sell my Ultra Star because of serious
health problems that have arisen. At my age its not unexpected.
She is in good condition, flying, has a practically new BRS, strong engine and
I'll throw in a trailer that only needs a very slight modification back at the
end to support the tail section. It was formerly my gyrocopter trailer. Good
for short hauls from home to airport, etc. $ 5900 for all.
Pictures at link below.
Ray http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rsanoa/album?.dir=/e28ere2
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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