---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/13/06: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:25 AM - Re: fuel mix (Dave Bigelow) 2. 03:09 AM - twin engine Flyer on Barnstormers (Scott Perkins) 3. 05:13 AM - Re: twin engine Flyer on Barnstormers (David Lehman) 4. 06:56 AM - Re: fuel mix (TheWanderingWench) 5. 11:15 AM - Re: fuel mix (Wayne T. McCullough) 6. 12:46 PM - Re: fuel mix (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 7. 01:17 PM - Oil compatability (Richard Girard) 8. 02:35 PM - Re: Oil compatability (possums) 9. 02:48 PM - Re: fuel mix (Jim Baker) 10. 02:56 PM - Re: Oil compatability (John Hauck) 11. 03:20 PM - First airplane () 12. 05:27 PM - Re: First airplane (David Key) 13. 05:33 PM - Re: First airplane (Mike Schnabel) 14. 06:07 PM - Re: fuel mix (George E. Thompson) 15. 06:08 PM - fuel mix (Arksey@aol.com) 16. 07:19 PM - Ultra Star (ray anderson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:09 AM PST US From: "Dave Bigelow" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: fuel mix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" Jim, Probly not a good idea with Rotax two stroke engines. The amsoil leaves a sticky gunky black deposit which tends to cause the rings to get sticky, resulting in high cylinder head temperatures. You can't go wrong with California Power System's AV2 oil or Pensoil Two Stroke Oil for Air-Cooled Engine. There are a number of other good two stroke oils out there that people swear by. The subject is kind of like politics or religion! > Hello group, > ?? Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) synthetic 2 cycle oil mix 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it? > ???? Thanks??? Jim Swan > ? > > Jim Swan in Michigan > will soon have a Kolb FS -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=46838#46838 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:26 AM PST US From: Scott Perkins <2scott@bellsouth.net> Subject: Kolb-List: twin engine Flyer on Barnstormers A pretty good looking Flyer for sale - $4500 ( I think?) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:43 AM PST US From: "David Lehman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: twin engine Flyer on Barnstormers Unique machine... I'm pretty sure that this is the same Flyer that didn't sell on eBay once before... Too bad that the wings don't fold, a Kolb trademark... DVD On 7/13/06, Scott Perkins <2scott@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > A pretty good looking Flyer for sale - $4500 ( I think?) > > -- "Attitude is everything ~ pick a good one"... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:56 AM PST US From: TheWanderingWench Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel mix --> Kolb-List message posted by: TheWanderingWench Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax 2-stroke engines. (He's written articles about the topic.) Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the topic. My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of the 100-1 oils. He reminded us that oil has two purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1 formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling end. His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke Rotax. It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3 formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the gas tank before switching. I think if you contact Lockwood Aviation (1-800-LA-ROTAX) they'll send you a copy of the article. Penzoil air-cooled is hard to find - so when I go on long cross-country flights, I switch to Penzoil outboard; since it's compatible with all other TC-W3 oils, you can use ANY TC-W3 oil if you're out in the sticks and can't find Penzoil outboard motor oil. As someone else on this list responded, oil selection is as contentious a topic as religion or politics. Arty --- Arksey@aol.com wrote: > Hello group, > Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) > synthetic 2 cycle oil mix > 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it? > Thanks Jim Swan > > > Jim Swan in Michigan > will soon have a Kolb FS > www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com "Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death." ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:55 AM PST US From: "Wayne T. McCullough" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel mix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Wayne T. McCullough" I think the article you are referring to was in a magazine with 2 strokes mounted on a trailer.....12 years in ultralights and I have always used the Penzoil air cooled even with a water cooled engine... The article also showed the inside components after a certain number of hours .... It was great... Wayne McCullough ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 9:54 AM > --> Kolb-List message posted by: TheWanderingWench > > > Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most > comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax > 2-stroke engines. (He's written articles about the > topic.) Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the > topic. My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of > the 100-1 oils. He reminded us that oil has two > purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1 > formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling > end. > > His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran > them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said > that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke > Rotax. It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3 > formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor > oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the > gas tank before switching. I think if you contact > Lockwood Aviation (1-800-LA-ROTAX) they'll send you a > copy of the article. > > Penzoil air-cooled is hard to find - so when I go on > long cross-country flights, I switch to Penzoil > outboard; since it's compatible with all other TC-W3 > oils, you can use ANY TC-W3 oil if you're out in the > sticks and can't find Penzoil outboard motor oil. > > As someone else on this list responded, oil selection > is as contentious a topic as religion or politics. > > Arty > > --- Arksey@aol.com wrote: > >> Hello group, >> Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) >> synthetic 2 cycle oil mix >> 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it? >> Thanks Jim Swan >> >> >> Jim Swan in Michigan >> will soon have a Kolb FS >> > > > www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com > > "Life's a daring adventure or nothing" > Helen Keller > > "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death." > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:17 PM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel mix I feel the same way about what it says in the book I am flying the 447 with 359 hours and no problems and the key word ( yet ) and a new engine on the shelve also, but I dont want to put it on untill its time or when someone buys it then I will sell it with a new engine and keep the old engine for my next Firestar project thats on its way ,I have heard of others on the list running a two stroker alot longer than what the book says and as long as it keeps working great I plan on running it untill the vitals start running low on the inspections Ellery in Maine do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:07 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Kolb-List: Oil compatability Having just run tanks of TW-3 oil, Valvoline and Pennsoil Marine, while running Pennsoil Air Cooled, can someone provide a link to the Lockwood article on Rotax 2 stroke oils? -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:58 PM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Oil compatability At 04:13 PM 7/13/2006, you wrote: >Having just run tanks of TW-3 oil, Valvoline and Pennsoil Marine, >while running Pennsoil Air Cooled, can someone provide a link to the >Lockwood article on Rotax 2 stroke oils? Oil Test http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:48:07 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel mix X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.31) --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" I tried to resist.......Auuuggghhhh!!!! Couldn't do it..... First.... This is not an advertisement for 100:1 oils Second..... > As someone else on this list responded, oil selection > is as contentious a topic as religion or politics. Oil performance is quantifiable when exposed to rigorous testing and objective investigation. The other two..... > Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most > comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax > 2-stroke engines. (He's written articles about the > topic.) Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the > topic. My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of > the 100-1 oils. He reminded us that oil has two > purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1 > formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling > end. A quote from an article that referenced these tests... http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm ____________________________________ Four different oils were chosen for the test. The oils tested were: 1) Pennzoil" Two-Cycle Air-Cooled Engine Oil; 2) Pennzoil' Premium Out- board and Multi-purpose Two Cycle Oil; 3) A conventional petroleum two-cycle oil; and 4) A two-cycle synthetic oil. ______________________________ How does one arrive at the position that 100:1 ratios, using oils formulated for 100:1 operation, will not cool adequately if none are tested? Further on in the article.... ______________________________ It is worthy to note that many pilots using synthetic oil may mix at a higher (leaner) fuel/oil ratio than the engine manufacturer may specify. Synthetic oils tend to work well against deposit formation at these higher ratios, however engine manufacturers generally state that the higher (leaner) oil ratio may not provide enough residual protection from corrosion during extended storage conditions. Therefore, all oils run in this test were run at the manufacturer's recommended fuel/oil ratio of 50: 1. _________________________________ Here is the possible start point for extrapolating inadequate cooling from higher oil ratios when 50:1 oils are used at higher ratios. False analogy, non sequiter, and appeal to authority are not bases for scientific proof. This is what Pennzoil (Shell) claims in their Technical Info letter P-15-A as the rationale for their air cooled oils (the bold is my highlighting)..... ________________________________________ Air cooled two-cycle engines are often idle or operate at low output between bursts of high output use. The idle time and infrequent high output use results in lower average piston temperatures than outboard engines. This results in less oil thinning in air cooled engines. The continued variations in speeds and the physical punishment that these engines experience play a key role in breaking off ash deposits that are formed by detergent additives in two-cycle oils. Consequently, detergent additives used in two-cycle oils do not harm air cooled two-cycle engines. Since air cooled engines have extensive idle and low output operating time and lower average piston temperatures, they do not always completely burn the heavier oil that may be present in two-cycle oils. This partially burned heavy oil causes carbon buildup in exhaust ports and the exhaust system. Buildup of these deposits causes loss of power. ________________________________________ Does this sound like your air-cooled two stroke engine? Lots of idle time? Extensive low output time? Infrequent high-output time? Moving on...... > His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran > them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said > that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke > Rotax. "Best" is a relative term when one only tests four oils. As for TC- W3 certification.... __________________________________________ TC-W3 lubricant, an NMMA owned trademark, has evolved over the years through much testing and research, and has proven to be the level of quality to satisfy the above objectives. And, going a step further, now that two cycle engines have moved towards higher cylinder temperatures and compressions, this lubricant also meets the EPA emissions reductions. TC-W3 has demonstrated the necessary lubrication performance quality needed for these more demanding cylinder/engine conditions. NMMA licenses those two cycle lubricants that meet the stringent performance tests conducted by a sanctioned laboratory approved by NMMA to conduct the tests. __________________________________________ This is the list of TC-W3 certified oils...... http://tinyurl.com/ko6dq > It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3 > formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor > oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the > gas tank before switching. Based on the following from Pennzoil.... _______________________________ Pennzoil has three oils for two-cycle engines, Premium Outboard And Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM, Advanced-Performance Snowmobile Oil and 2-Cycle Air Cooled Engine Oil, each specifically designed for different applications. Care should be taken to avoid mixing the various two-cycle oils together, especially when converting a customer from one product to the other product. Pennzoil Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced- Performance Snowmobile Oil contain ashless dispersant additives, whereas Pennzoil 2- Cycle Air Cooled Engine Oil contains a low-ash detergent additive. As a general rule, ash-containing two-cycle oils should not be mixed with ashless two-cycle oils, as their additives may be incompatible with each other. This would apply not only to Pennzoil's two-cycle products, but to all two-cycle oils on the market. Since Pennzoil Premium Outboard And Multi- Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced- Performance Snowmobile Oil are ashless formulations, mixing of these products with an ash-containing product should be avoided. _______________________________________________ Arty is correct on this point. I can only take Pennzoil's admonition at face value. Those of us using 50:1 oils that do not have a Pennzoil label and those of us using 100:1 oils recognize how thin the argument is that any one oil is best. Interesting to note that Lockwood doesn't specify which two stroke oil they sell on their WEB site. If Air Cooled oil were best for air cooled engines, why not carry both? Jim Baker 580.788.2779 Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:01 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Oil compatability --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" | http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm Possum and others: Notice what rpm they used for cruise. Looks like the same one I used to use back in the old two stroke days of aviation: johnh mkIII Table 2 Operating conditions per hour of operation - 280 hours total Idle 5 minutes Take Off - Full Power 4 minutes Cruise - 5800 rpm 47 minutes Descent and landing - 4000 rpm 4 minutes ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:46 PM PST US From: Subject: Kolb-List: First airplane --> Kolb-List message posted by: Brother and Sister Aviators: Thanks to everyone who responded to the First Airplane poll. If we could get those who didn't supply me with the year, and possibly a few of the lurkers to chime in as well, I believe the cumulative total of years of flying experience for this group might just top 2000 years. Yep, you read that right, 2000. We're at over 1800 now. So, this is a final plea. If you haven't sent your info, please email me direct at kfackler@ameritech.net with your full name, first airplane you flew as PIC, and the year. Again for reference, the website is: http://www.kfackler.com/kolb/first_plane.html -Ken Fackler Kolb Mark II / A722KWF Rochester MI do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:19 PM PST US From: "David Key" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: First airplane --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" 1980 >From: >To: >Subject: Kolb-List: First airplane >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 18:16:40 -0400 > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: > >Brother and Sister Aviators: > >Thanks to everyone who responded to the First Airplane poll. If we could >get >those who didn't supply me with the year, and possibly a few of the lurkers >to chime in as well, I believe the cumulative total of years of flying >experience for this group might just top 2000 years. Yep, you read that >right, 2000. We're at over 1800 now. > >So, this is a final plea. If you haven't sent your info, please email me >direct at kfackler@ameritech.net with your full name, first airplane you >flew as PIC, and the year. > >Again for reference, the website is: >http://www.kfackler.com/kolb/first_plane.html > >-Ken Fackler >Kolb Mark II / A722KWF >Rochester MI > >do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:27 PM PST US From: Mike Schnabel Subject: Re: Kolb-List: First airplane Thanks Ken for a GREAT question that started an avalanche of replies. And for taking the time to document them to the Internet and sharing with us all. It was a simple yet amazing question that I know I have enjoyed following the responses to, as I am sure many of the listers here have also! Great job!!! Mike S Manchester, TN do not archive kfackler@ameritech.net wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Brother and Sister Aviators: Thanks to everyone who responded to the First Airplane poll. If we could get those who didn't supply me with the year, and possibly a few of the lurkers to chime in as well, I believe the cumulative total of years of flying experience for this group might just top 2000 years. Yep, you read that right, 2000. We're at over 1800 now. So, this is a final plea. If you haven't sent your info, please email me direct at kfackler@ameritech.net with your full name, first airplane you flew as PIC, and the year. Again for reference, the website is: http://www.kfackler.com/kolb/first_plane.html -Ken Fackler Kolb Mark II / A722KWF Rochester MI do not archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:23 PM PST US From: "George E. Thompson" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel mix --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George E. Thompson" For what it's worth (2 cents?) I have used Pennzoil air cooled oil in all my Rotex 247 and 503's for approx. 700 hrs and have never had a stuck ring nor cleaned the carbon. Az Bald Eagle ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 2:43 PM --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" I tried to resist.......Auuuggghhhh!!!! Couldn't do it..... First.... This is not an advertisement for 100:1 oils Second..... > As someone else on this list responded, oil selection > is as contentious a topic as religion or politics. Oil performance is quantifiable when exposed to rigorous testing and objective investigation. The other two..... > Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most > comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax > 2-stroke engines. (He's written articles about the > topic.) Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the > topic. My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of > the 100-1 oils. He reminded us that oil has two > purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1 > formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling > end. A quote from an article that referenced these tests... http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm ____________________________________ Four different oils were chosen for the test. The oils tested were: 1) Pennzoil" Two-Cycle Air-Cooled Engine Oil; 2) Pennzoil' Premium Out- board and Multi-purpose Two Cycle Oil; 3) A conventional petroleum two-cycle oil; and 4) A two-cycle synthetic oil. ______________________________ How does one arrive at the position that 100:1 ratios, using oils formulated for 100:1 operation, will not cool adequately if none are tested? Further on in the article.... ______________________________ It is worthy to note that many pilots using synthetic oil may mix at a higher (leaner) fuel/oil ratio than the engine manufacturer may specify. Synthetic oils tend to work well against deposit formation at these higher ratios, however engine manufacturers generally state that the higher (leaner) oil ratio may not provide enough residual protection from corrosion during extended storage conditions. Therefore, all oils run in this test were run at the manufacturer's recommended fuel/oil ratio of 50: 1. _________________________________ Here is the possible start point for extrapolating inadequate cooling from higher oil ratios when 50:1 oils are used at higher ratios. False analogy, non sequiter, and appeal to authority are not bases for scientific proof. This is what Pennzoil (Shell) claims in their Technical Info letter P-15-A as the rationale for their air cooled oils (the bold is my highlighting)..... ________________________________________ Air cooled two-cycle engines are often idle or operate at low output between bursts of high output use. The idle time and infrequent high output use results in lower average piston temperatures than outboard engines. This results in less oil thinning in air cooled engines. The continued variations in speeds and the physical punishment that these engines experience play a key role in breaking off ash deposits that are formed by detergent additives in two-cycle oils. Consequently, detergent additives used in two-cycle oils do not harm air cooled two-cycle engines. Since air cooled engines have extensive idle and low output operating time and lower average piston temperatures, they do not always completely burn the heavier oil that may be present in two-cycle oils. This partially burned heavy oil causes carbon buildup in exhaust ports and the exhaust system. Buildup of these deposits causes loss of power. ________________________________________ Does this sound like your air-cooled two stroke engine? Lots of idle time? Extensive low output time? Infrequent high-output time? Moving on...... > His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran > them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said > that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke > Rotax. "Best" is a relative term when one only tests four oils. As for TC- W3 certification.... __________________________________________ TC-W3 lubricant, an NMMA owned trademark, has evolved over the years through much testing and research, and has proven to be the level of quality to satisfy the above objectives. And, going a step further, now that two cycle engines have moved towards higher cylinder temperatures and compressions, this lubricant also meets the EPA emissions reductions. TC-W3 has demonstrated the necessary lubrication performance quality needed for these more demanding cylinder/engine conditions. NMMA licenses those two cycle lubricants that meet the stringent performance tests conducted by a sanctioned laboratory approved by NMMA to conduct the tests. __________________________________________ This is the list of TC-W3 certified oils...... http://tinyurl.com/ko6dq > It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3 > formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor > oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the > gas tank before switching. Based on the following from Pennzoil.... _______________________________ Pennzoil has three oils for two-cycle engines, Premium Outboard And Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM, Advanced-Performance Snowmobile Oil and 2-Cycle Air Cooled Engine Oil, each specifically designed for different applications. Care should be taken to avoid mixing the various two-cycle oils together, especially when converting a customer from one product to the other product. Pennzoil Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced- Performance Snowmobile Oil contain ashless dispersant additives, whereas Pennzoil 2- Cycle Air Cooled Engine Oil contains a low-ash detergent additive. As a general rule, ash-containing two-cycle oils should not be mixed with ashless two-cycle oils, as their additives may be incompatible with each other. This would apply not only to Pennzoil's two-cycle products, but to all two-cycle oils on the market. Since Pennzoil Premium Outboard And Multi- Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced- Performance Snowmobile Oil are ashless formulations, mixing of these products with an ash-containing product should be avoided. _______________________________________________ Arty is correct on this point. I can only take Pennzoil's admonition at face value. Those of us using 50:1 oils that do not have a Pennzoil label and those of us using 100:1 oils recognize how thin the argument is that any one oil is best. Interesting to note that Lockwood doesn't specify which two stroke oil they sell on their WEB site. If Air Cooled oil were best for air cooled engines, why not carry both? Jim Baker 580.788.2779 Elmore City, OK -- No virus found in this incoming message. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:50 PM PST US From: Arksey@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: fuel mix Hello group, I want to thank everyone for their input of my question, which was if anyone was using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) SYNTHETIC 2 CYCLE oil at 100-1 mix in a rotax 503 ...There is a wealth of experence and knowledge in this group. Possum's you sure have put some time in the air, hope to meet you some day, and Arty I have read some of your accounts of your cross country flights and I found them very enjoyable...what got me interested in our type of aircraft was a flight I took in a 2 place Drifter in Sebring Fl with Jeff Hudson a couple of years ago. The Drifter had Lotus floats and wheels and what a wonderful flight it was, I could not get over the visibilty and that is why I decided to look for that type of aircraft and decided on a Kolb firestar. I spend the winters at Sebring and have met Phil Lockwood and have great respect for his judgement and knowledge... Thanks again to all...Jim Swan Jim Swan in Michigan will soon have a Kolb FS ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:17 PM PST US From: ray anderson Subject: Kolb-List: Ultra Star ALL, Regretfully it appears that I may have to sell my Ultra Star because of serious health problems that have arisen. At my age its not unexpected. She is in good condition, flying, has a practically new BRS, strong engine and I'll throw in a trailer that only needs a very slight modification back at the end to support the tail section. It was formerly my gyrocopter trailer. Good for short hauls from home to airport, etc. $ 5900 for all. Pictures at link below. Ray http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rsanoa/album?.dir=/e28ere2 DO NOT ARCHIVE --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.