---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/31/06: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: Control positioning during ground handling (Thom Riddle) 2. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: Control positioning during ground handling (Jack B. Hart) 3. 05:45 AM - Vamoose (russ kinne) 4. 06:43 AM - Re: Oshkosh (Denny Rowe) 5. 08:20 AM - Re: flap takeoff (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 6. 09:03 AM - Re: flap takeoff (Richard Pike) 7. 09:33 AM - Re: flap takeoff (John Hauck) 8. 09:55 AM - Re: Vamoose (possums) 9. 10:42 AM - Fw: flap takeoff (robert bean) 10. 10:42 AM - Re: flap takeoff (The Kuffels) 11. 11:14 AM - Re: flap takeoff (Dave & Eve Pelletier) 12. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: Control positioning during ground handling (LEE CREECH) 13. 11:27 AM - Re: flap takeoff (John Hauck) 14. 11:53 AM - FireFly Takeoff (Jack B. Hart) 15. 12:06 PM - Re: Control positioning during ground handling (Ralph Hoover) 16. 12:20 PM - Re: flap takeoff (Richard Pike) 17. 01:46 PM - Re: FireFly Takeoff (LEE CREECH) 18. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: Control positioning during ground handling (John Hauck) 19. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: Control positioning during ground handling () 20. 02:27 PM - Re: Re: Control positioning during ground handling (Jimmy) 21. 02:32 PM - Re: flap takeoff (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 22. 03:01 PM - Re: Vamoose (planecrazzzy) 23. 03:50 PM - Re: Re: Control positioning during ground handling (Richard Girard) 24. 04:39 PM - Firestar cruise (Ralph Hoover) 25. 04:55 PM - Re: Firestar cruise (John Hauck) 26. 05:06 PM - Re: Firestar cruise (Richard Girard) 27. 05:13 PM - Matronics Email List Web Server Upgrade Tonight... (Matt Dralle) 28. 05:17 PM - Re: Firestar cruise (Richard Pike) 29. 07:49 PM - MKIII for sale (Richard Pike) 30. 08:27 PM - Re: Kolb to be burned at end of flying season (HShack@aol.com) 31. 08:55 PM - Re: Kolb to be burned at end of flying season (Chuck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:25 AM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling ...BTW, if someone is good at engineering, I have an interesting CG question I need answered. Simple, but hard. Ed in JXN (MI) MkII/503 Ed, Post the CG problem. I'm sure you'll get lots of feedback. Thom in Buffalo retired engineer, but can still do simple math, sometimes correctly do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:25 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" Kolbers, I did not mean to question how you have been trained to taxi in windy conditions, or how others taxi their specific aircraft. But with a Kolb FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with prop wash. If the horizontal stabilizer was placed higher on the tail so it was in prop wash, I would change my stick positions. I have always admired the Mini-Max in the way they could max out the throttle on the beginning of the take off. The tail is up immediately with good control and no fear of putting it on it's nose. But I picked the FireFly for the up front view, a pusher, with a high thrust line, and I have to accept that I will never be able to launch it like a Mini-Max. Not picking on a J-3 Cub but only using it as an example and moving it closer to a Kolb design, how would ground handling change if you raised the thrust line two feet and moved the gear back a foot and one half? As far as not taxiing or flying the FireFly in twenty mph winds, some times we do not have much choice. Conditions change when you are out and about. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:56 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Kolb-List: Vamoose --> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne Lar Is that dirt from flying off dirt strips????? har de harhar don not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:02 AM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Oshkosh --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" Mr Starks wife flys a Mk II. ----- Original Message ----- > I talked to Gene and his Son about the engine. They are going to be > putting this on a Kolb soon. They weren't sure if it was a Mk II or early > III. The Kolb belongs to Dick Starks wife of the Dawn Patrol fame. I am > only about 3 hr drive from them. When it is done, I may drive up and have > a look. Considering the engine on a Firestar. > Jerry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:38 AM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Just a further comment on flaps. Those of us that fly the MKIII with stock length gear legs have a limited angle of attack when on the ground. I use one notch of flap every time I take off (except in high winds). This increases the effective angle of attack. Then just after lift off I retract the flaps. The short gear legs limit the angle of attack. Kolb designed our planes this way to keep us safer by making sure we are well over stall speed before take off. The down side is it increases the take off roll and speed. Sorry if I get long winded but... I just got my biannual check ride. This is my once every two years ride in a C172. Afterwards I shared my forced landing experience in MKIIIc with him. I started to tell him how I used the flaps to adjust my glide path to get me where I wanted to land (kind of like a negative throttle) and fully retracted them for landing. He stopped me and said you never never raise your flaps on approach. We then got into a heavy discussion about flap usage. He finally conceded that it might work in one of "those" Kolbs but not in a GA aircraft. I obviously need to take him up in my Kolb and should have done it right then in the C172 but at close to $100 per hour it wasn't worth it. For those of you that haven't tried it get some altitude and find a landing spot. Pull the throttle back and establish a glide. Then grab the flap handle and add some flap. Be aware that as you add flap you need to push forward on the stick to increase your decent rate to keep your airspeed up. When you raise the flaps pull back. Don't lock the flaps in a notch just play with it a bit. Watch were the touch point changes when you add or decrease the flaps. You may need to change your grip but pull in full flaps and be sure you nose down quickly. You will be surprised how much you can adjust your glide slope. Be sure you don't get into that airspeed area where you might stall if you raise the flaps. Most of us fly an approach well above stall speed and decreasing flaps decreases the angle of attack but be careful especially near the ground. Don't forget there are other tools you can and should use like circling and S turns. My point is use every tool you can to make a safe landing. My personal forced landing rule is that I will retract all the flaps once I have the field made. This makes my MKIIIc land more like it does during my normal landing where I use one notch of flap and maintain some power. One last point most instructors have a set of rules that they teach everyone and this is very good. But like most rules they are base lines that you may be able to deviate from. Don't blindly follow these rules if bending them can save your life. Education and experience can help here but remember there is one rule you can't break and that is that gravity will bite you if you screw up. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 6:08 PM > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > > > BB/Gang: > > I find the MKIII takes off and climbs much better without the use of > flaps. > > However, there are times when flaps will assist in getting the MKIII > off the ground quicker, i.e., flying off soft, rough, wet, sandy > fields. I usually start my ground roll clean. When the AIS needle > swings through 30 mph, I snatch in full flaps. The MKIII usually pops > right off the ground. Soon as it breaks ground, I slowly push them > back up to the clean position. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:18 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike You did good. Several years ago when I got the clog in my oil line and the 582 died, I was right off the end of a paved RC model strip (Yes, Amazing Grace is amazing...) and knew I had the strip made, but since it was short and I figured I would only get one shot at it, I used the flaps exactly as you describe to adjust the glide slope. Worked very well. However, since my home strip is only 750' long, I always land with full flaps, and even at "real airports", I always use full flaps, that way I am programmed to anticipate how it will land every time. What did the instructor say about power off stalls & recovery in a Kolb? "At the break, add power..." Another fertile area for discussion... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" > > > Just a further comment on flaps. Those of us that fly the MKIII with > stock length gear legs have a limited angle of attack when on the > ground. I use one notch of flap every time I take off (except in high > winds). This increases the effective angle of attack. Then just after > lift off I retract the flaps. The short gear legs limit the angle of > attack. Kolb designed our planes this way to keep us safer by making > sure we are well over stall speed before take off. The down side is it > increases the take off roll and speed. > > Sorry if I get long winded but... I just got my biannual check ride. > This is my once every two years ride in a C172. Afterwards I shared my > forced landing experience in MKIIIc with him. I started to tell him > how I used the flaps to adjust my glide path to get me where I wanted > to land (kind of like a negative throttle) and fully retracted them > for landing. He stopped me and said you never never raise your flaps > on approach. We then got into a heavy discussion about flap usage. He > finally conceded that it might work in one of "those" Kolbs but not in > a GA aircraft. I obviously need to take him up in my Kolb and should > have done it right then in the C172 but at close to $100 per hour it > wasn't worth it. > > For those of you that haven't tried it get some altitude and find a > landing spot. Pull the throttle back and establish a glide. Then grab > the flap handle and add some flap. Be aware that as you add flap you > need to push forward on the stick to increase your decent rate to keep > your airspeed up. When you raise the flaps pull back. Don't lock the > flaps in a notch just play with it a bit. Watch were the touch point > changes when you add or decrease the flaps. You may need to change > your grip but pull in full flaps and be sure you nose down quickly. > You will be surprised how much you can adjust your glide slope. Be > sure you don't get into that airspeed area where you might stall if > you raise the flaps. Most of us fly an approach well above stall speed > and decreasing flaps decreases the angle of attack but be careful > especially near the ground. Don't forget there are other tools you can > and should use like circling and S turns. My point is use every tool > you can to make a safe landing. > > My personal forced landing rule is that I will retract all the flaps > once I have the field made. This makes my MKIIIc land more like it > does during my normal landing where I use one notch of flap and > maintain some power. > > One last point most instructors have a set of rules that they teach > everyone and this is very good. But like most rules they are base > lines that you may be able to deviate from. Don't blindly follow these > rules if bending them can save your life. Education and experience can > help here but remember there is one rule you can't break and that is > that gravity will bite you if you screw up. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW powered MKIIIc > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:39 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Kolb? | "At the break, add power..." Another fertile area for discussion... | | Richard Pike Rev/Gang: Recovery from a stall in a Kolb is a no brainer. ;-) Usually, relaxing your grip on the stick will take care of that little problem. However, be surprised how many folks will pull the stick back and try to make the airplane fly when they inadvertently stall near the ground. Some only get to try that once. Reference forced landings and flaps in a mkIII: I'll do what ever it takes to get me down in one piece. Probably the best way to survive a forced landing is a lot of practice forced landings, dead stick. I don't know any other way to do it better. Kolbs are entirely different animals with the prop spinning at idle and with the prop not spinning at all. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:14 AM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vamoose At 08:40 AM 7/31/2006, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne > >Lar >Is that dirt from flying off dirt strips????? >har de harhar >don not archive Dirt dabbers, maybe. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:06 AM PST US From: robert bean Subject: Fwd: Kolb-List: flap takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean > > "dirt dabber", not Dirk Diggler? yuk yuk > > OK, yesterday morn I went for a tour about the neighborhood > to circulate both the plane's fluids and my own. > I turned a really short final over those grasping corn stalks and > pulled the flaps one notch. The northbound landing requires > going through a notch of trees so I always carry a touch extra > speed to maintain full control and the possibility of different > lift after the trees. Chopped her to zero before the last tassels > passed below the wheels, started to settle too fast, stick back > a little, balloon up 6 ft, no throttle (waiting for smashdown) > followed by gentle touchdown. > flies like a real airplane. > > They have added some fun to the picture. > > I did notice, leaning on them while wiping yet more bug-induced > sawdust off the wings, that they popped out of the raised detent > easily. > I stuck a rubber band between the handle and that little tab to the > left > (whatever THAT's for?) to hold it in place. Works pretty good, > maybe two rubber bands will do better. > > BB, duct tape, balin wire, rubber bands > do not archive > On 31, Jul 2006, at 1:11 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote: > >>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>> From: robert bean >>> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 12:42:21 -0400 >>> Subject: Kolb-List: flap takeoff >>> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) >>> Sender: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >>> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at onlyinternet.net >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean >>> >>> Group, after finding little on the subject, I humbly seek advice. >>> OK, I really like the flaps (only one notch so far) for landing. >>> Very gentle touchdowns. But now I'm wondering about one >>> notch takeoffs? Sure, those SUV/MKIIIs with 90 hp will leap >>> off like a feather so configured, but I seek the experience of >>> those who have used them while powered with a lesser >>> powerplant. This would be, of course, lightly loaded, solo. >>> -BB >>> do not archive >>> >> Bob, >> >> You have already experienced the answer. How much back stick did you >> have >> left when you landed with one notch of flaps? If you have sufficient >> remaining stick to raise the nose you are ok as long as you do not >> increase >> gross weight. >> >> One way to find out the limit, is to climb to altitude, put on some >> flaps >> and practice touch and goes. If and when the stick hits the back >> stop on >> decent, you have reached the limit. Be sure to remove some flap >> before >> advancing the throttle. I ran this experiment with the FireFly some >> time >> ago. To get more back stick effectiveness, I added VG's on the >> bottom side >> of the horizontal stabilizer. They were a major improvement, in that >> the >> FireFly cannot fly off the runway into ground effect before the >> elevator is >> effective. >> >> Jack B. Hart FF004 >> Winchester, IN >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:59 AM PST US From: The Kuffels Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: The Kuffels Rick, <> Have the same discussion with a CFI who is glider rated. He/she will immediately understand how you are using flaps in the same manner as spoilers. The trick, of course is to maintain your (hopefully constant) airspeed well above stall when you do retract the flaps. Tom Kuffel (yeah, CFI with a glider rating, but FAI not FAA) Whitefish, MT Building Original Firestar. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:42 AM PST US From: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" > Kolbs are entirely > different animals with the prop spinning at idle and with the prop not > spinning at all. > > john h > mkIII I agree. Before I ever took up a passenger, a requirement I made for myself was that I'd do six "ignition off" landings. I did and each one of them was a hard landing. Fortunately not hard enough to bend the gear legs. I did this with my Firestar and the landings were fine. I'm not sure why the hard landings with the MKIII. Seems like I had plenty of airspeed, especially with the last three. The nose would come up but the airplane wouldn't flare and would "pancake" in. I think it was because of two things. 1. My fear of ballooning and not having power available to "goose" it probably meant that I was reluctant to pull back hard enough on the stick. 2. Not having propeller air flow over the elevator probably made for a less effective elevator. Figured I'd better quit before I did serious damage. AzDave > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:18 AM PST US From: "LEE CREECH" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling --> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" QUOTE: "But with a Kolb FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with prop wash." Interesting. When I was learning to fly my Firestar II (similar layout, right?) I was taught that I should have the stick all the way back when I open the throttle for takeoff, to avoid a possible nose-over. Obviously the idea is to generate some compensatory down force on the tail. Do you think that's all irrelevant, then? I'm not sure I want to try it with the stick forward just to see what happens. Why don't you do that, and report back how it goes? :) Lee >From: "Jack B. Hart" >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:28:58 -0500 > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" > >Kolbers, > >I did not mean to question how you have been trained to taxi in windy >conditions, or how others taxi their specific aircraft. But with a Kolb >FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with prop wash. If the >horizontal stabilizer was placed higher on the tail so it was in prop wash, >I would change my stick positions. I have always admired the Mini-Max in >the >way they could max out the throttle on the beginning of the take off. The >tail is up immediately with good control and no fear of putting it on it's >nose. But I picked the FireFly for the up front view, a pusher, with a >high >thrust line, and I have to accept that I will never be able to launch it >like a Mini-Max. > >Not picking on a J-3 Cub but only using it as an example and moving it >closer to a Kolb design, how would ground handling change if you raised the >thrust line two feet and moved the gear back a foot and one half? > >As far as not taxiing or flying the FireFly in twenty mph winds, some times >we do not have much choice. Conditions change when you are out and about. > >Jack B. Hart FF004 >Winchester, IN > > _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:21 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" I'm not sure why the hard | landings with the MKIII. Seems like I had plenty of airspeed, especially | with the last three. The nose would come up but the airplane wouldn't flare | and would "pancake" in. | | AzDave Dave: Got to keep above the stall or it will quit flying. For best results the mains should be close to the ground, like inches. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:53 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly Takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" At 02:17 PM 7/31/06 -0400, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" > >QUOTE: "But with a Kolb FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with >prop wash." > >Interesting. When I was learning to fly my Firestar II (similar layout, >right?) I was taught that I should have the stick all the way back when I >open the throttle for takeoff, to avoid a possible nose-over. Obviously the >idea is to generate some compensatory down force on the tail. Do you think >that's all irrelevant, then? I'm not sure I want to try it with the stick >forward just to see what happens. Why don't you do that, and report back >how it goes? :) > >Lee Lee, Since you switched subject from ground handling to takeoff, I changed the subject line to fit. I agree with you on your take off procedure. I hold the stick back on take off. The down force you experience on the tail is from the relative wind generated by forward motion and not prop wash. This is why I tease the throttle forward until there is enough air velocity over the horizontal tail surfaces to keep from putting the FireFly on it's nose. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:20 PM PST US From: "Ralph Hoover" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" "I'm not sure I want to try it with the stick forward just to see what happens. Why don't you do that, and report back how it goes? " Well I can tell ya from A firestar standpoint! Full throtle in any stick position from standstill will "MOON" the world! I don't care if anyone believes me or not. I am living proof. And if you full backstick with even 5 MPH winds from a stand still from the front, it will moon the world. The slightest rut in a grass field at start-off and she would be happer to BOW DOWN to God than lift off . Although she will move forward with great speed! Stick back head into wind, crank speed, full throtle, stick neutral and boom, your up . Of course, after trying and proving every "dumb" move avaliable, I'm only 4 hours of landing and takeoff, very little air time between. I certanly could be wrong, and therefore be corrected by the old salts here. Stick in the gut Ralph of Ohio Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51130#51130 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:36 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Actually, what I was hoping to instigate was a dialogue comparing the a Kolb stall to the typical mantra that most instructors will give you when you do a power off stall in a C172 or such. Something like, "As the nose drops, you ease the stick forward while adding power to arrest the descent." I have a good friend who is a CFI, and several years ago we went for the first of several biannuals in the MKIII. He is of the school that a nibble and a buffet is not a stall. To him, a power off stall is a "whee, there-goes-the-nose" stall, and that is what he wanted to see a recovery from - a genuine stall. Works for me, those are the ones that bite you. When he noticed that I waited until I had substantially recovered from the stall before putting the throttle in, he remarked that "I would lose less altitude if I put the throttle in immediately at the break." I suggested to him that with the MKIII's high thrust line, if it got a big dose of throttle while seriously stalled, the recovery could be a lot more exciting. I said that in a low altitude stall especially, getting the nose down and getting it solidly flying again was more important than getting the power in ASAP. So his modified instructions were - as soon as it feels like it is flying is a good time to add power. This got me wondering about SOP for power off stall recovery on a Lake Amphibian, and apparently they have very large stabilizer trim tabs located in the prop blast to preclude such questions. http://www.seaplanes.org/gateway/seaplane_smpl.htm http://aircraftinnovation.com/training/instr-techniques.html Anyway, that was the "fertile area for discussion." Or not. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive John Hauck wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > > | What did the instructor say about power off stalls & recovery in a > Kolb? > > Rev/Gang: > > Recovery from a stall in a Kolb is a no brainer. ;-) Usually, > relaxing your grip on the stick will take care of that little problem. > However, be surprised how many folks will pull the stick back and try > to make the airplane fly when they inadvertently stall near the > ground. Some only get to try that once. > > Reference forced landings and flaps in a mkIII: I'll do what ever it > takes to get me down in one piece. Probably the best way to survive a > forced landing is a lot of practice forced landings, dead stick. I > don't know any other way to do it better. Kolbs are entirely > different animals with the prop spinning at idle and with the prop not > spinning at all. > > john h > mkIII > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:02 PM PST US From: "LEE CREECH" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: FireFly Takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" Well, maybe. I'm not convinced, but I have to admit I don't really know. I've never thought it was necessary to "tease the throttle forward". I don't JAM it forward, but that's out of respect for the engine, not concern about nosing over. Empirically, it would be easy enough to determine whether the prop wash extends down as far as the elevator or not, just by getting down on your hands and knees immediately behind a Kolb with the engine running. I'm going to guess you will get a faceful of wind. :) Lee >From: "Jack B. Hart" >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly Takeoff >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 14:59:11 -0500 > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" > >At 02:17 PM 7/31/06 -0400, you wrote: > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" > > > >QUOTE: "But with a Kolb FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with > >prop wash." > > > >Interesting. When I was learning to fly my Firestar II (similar layout, > >right?) I was taught that I should have the stick all the way back when I > >open the throttle for takeoff, to avoid a possible nose-over. Obviously >the > >idea is to generate some compensatory down force on the tail. Do you >think > >that's all irrelevant, then? I'm not sure I want to try it with the >stick > >forward just to see what happens. Why don't you do that, and report back > >how it goes? :) > > > >Lee > >Lee, > >Since you switched subject from ground handling to takeoff, I changed the >subject line to fit. I agree with you on your take off procedure. I hold >the stick back on take off. The down force you experience on the tail is >from the relative wind generated by forward motion and not prop wash. This >is why I tease the throttle forward until there is enough air velocity over >the horizontal tail surfaces to keep from putting the FireFly on it's >nose. > >Jack B. Hart FF004 >Winchester, IN > >Jack B. Hart FF004 >Winchester, IN > > _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:27 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" and boom, your up . Of course, after trying and proving every "dumb" move avaliable, I'm only 4 hours of landing and takeoff, very little air time between. I certanly could be wrong, and therefore be corrected by the old salts here. | | Stick in the gut Ralph of Ohio Ralph: I think you are right. It has been my privilege to fly, a good bit, all models of the Kolb line except the original Twinstar and MKII Twinstar. They all fly, very basically, the same way. I can assure you that prop blast also hits the horizontal stabilizers, elevators, and rudder of every model, including the two I have never flown. A little common sense, a good control touch, a lot of time in the airplane you are flying to become very, very accustomed to how it will behave in most situations, learned by experimenting with taxi and flight, and you will become one with the aircraft. Taking time to think about everything you will need to do when the time to do it arises, is probably gonna be too late. Jack B's FF may handle a little different than others. He has, from what he has shared on the Kolb List and his web page, changed control surface rigging somewhat from the norm. Each airplane will have its own little character that each pilot must learn intimately to become a good pilot of that aircraft. Go fly, have fun, and learn, john h mkIII PS: It pays off to be smooth in throttle application of any aircraft and any power plant. Smoothness if the mark of a good pilot. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:45 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling --> Kolb-List message posted by: > It has been my privilege to fly, a good bit, all models of the Kolb > line except the original Twinstar and MKII Twinstar. Brother John, I have a Mark II that is yours to fly should you ever find yourself back up in this part of the country. P.S. It handles conventionally. -Ken Fackler Kolb Mark II / A722KWF Rochester MI ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:37 PM PST US From: "Jimmy" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy" QUOTE: "But with a Kolb FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with prop wash." I guess my Firefly is different from others. Once I tied the tail down by the boom at the rear to a hanger door post to run up the engine, and by increasing and decreasing the throttle I was able to float the rear of the Firefly off the ground. Jimmy Hankinson 912-863-7384 Firefly 035 JYL (Sylvania) Pegasus Field (Home) 2000 Feet X 100 Feet- Grass Rocky Ford, Georgia Do Not Archive -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try SPAMfighter for free now! ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:57 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap takeoff --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Richard I saw your comment about the stall recovery but I never talked about it with my CFI. Personally I don't like stalls. I don't do them and don't practice them. I know I should but... What I do is practice not doing them. There are a number of things that they have us do in the check ride that doesn't make sense to me. Yes my CFI also wants to see much more than a nibble or a buffet. In normal flight I'm never going to feel a nibble or a buffet and blunder on into a full blown stall. The only time this might happen is when I'm close to the ground like takeoff or landing. How stupid? No I do practice slow flight down to the point where my airplane is telling me WARNING you push me any further and I will stall.Then I recover as quickly as possible. Another big test all CFIs seem to want is fly a 45 degree bank turn without gaining or loosing altitude. What does that do for us? Again in normal flight we never do this. On occasion I do high bank turns like they want you to do landing to the north/west at Oshkosh but I'm flying a approach profile not holding altitude. Granted there are some reasonable things they have us do during the biannual but most of it is just a pain in the..... Maybe John W. could enlighten us. He is a CFI and I'm sure he has had to jump thru many more hoops as a airline captain than we have to. Sorry I will stop my rant. Do not archive Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIc ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 3:20 PM > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike > > Actually, what I was hoping to instigate was a dialogue comparing the a > Kolb stall to the typical mantra that most instructors will give you when > you do a power off stall in a C172 or such. Something like, "As the nose > drops, you ease the stick forward while adding power to arrest the > descent." > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:54 PM PST US From: "planecrazzzy" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Vamoose --> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" Big Lar don't wanna talk about Vamoose right now....He sez it's too damn Hot down there.... He's talkin about goin 20-30 miles out to sea ...Fishin It's hot here too... Gotta Fly... Mike in MN -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51210#51210 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:13 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling I am not a high time Kolb Flyer, I'm up to about 40 hours, but 30 of that has been doing takeoffs and landings. I now always start my takeoff roll with the stick full forward. I roll the throttle in smoothly, the tail comes up when it is ready and all I have to do is a nice smooth pull back to lift off. I, too was warned about nose over with the adminition, "don't shove the throttle forward too fast, it has enough power to send you ass over tea kettle." Keep in mind that I'm out here on the great grass desert and the wind blows almost constantly, but I haven't seen a lot of difference when the wind is down around 5 mph. Works like a charm for me, your results may differ. On 7/31/06, LEE CREECH wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" > > QUOTE: "But with a Kolb FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with > prop wash." > > Interesting. When I was learning to fly my Firestar II (similar layout, > right?) I was taught that I should have the stick all the way back when I > open the throttle for takeoff, to avoid a possible nose-over. Obviously > the > idea is to generate some compensatory down force on the tail. Do you > think > that's all irrelevant, then? I'm not sure I want to try it with the stick > forward just to see what happens. Why don't you do that, and report back > how it goes? :) > > Lee > > >From: "Jack B. Hart" > >To: kolb-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Control positioning during ground handling > >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:28:58 -0500 > > > >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" > > > >Kolbers, > > > >I did not mean to question how you have been trained to taxi in windy > >conditions, or how others taxi their specific aircraft. But with a Kolb > >FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with prop wash. If the > >horizontal stabilizer was placed higher on the tail so it was in prop > wash, > >I would change my stick positions. I have always admired the Mini-Max in > >the > >way they could max out the throttle on the beginning of the take > off. The > >tail is up immediately with good control and no fear of putting it on > it's > >nose. But I picked the FireFly for the up front view, a pusher, with a > >high > >thrust line, and I have to accept that I will never be able to launch it > >like a Mini-Max. > > > >Not picking on a J-3 Cub but only using it as an example and moving it > >closer to a Kolb design, how would ground handling change if you raised > the > >thrust line two feet and moved the gear back a foot and one half? > > > >As far as not taxiing or flying the FireFly in twenty mph winds, some > times > >we do not have much choice. Conditions change when you are out and > about. > > > >Jack B. Hart FF004 > >Winchester, IN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:33 PM PST US From: "Ralph Hoover" Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar cruise --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" Now that I am actually flying and have come to the conclusion that the Kolb is an extreemly forgiving aircraft, I find I have a few questions. The plane is a Kolb Firestar KXP 1990 w/503 and standard two blade prop. The first question is as follows: Since cruise speed is 55 MPH on the ASI's (I have two), how might I raise it to say 60 MPH ASI? I would like to do this with the least amount of alteration to the craft as posible. My reason is I will be flying with some friends from my field thaat have a Challenger two place short wing with 503 and a Titon with a 503. The second question that relates to the above is: If I alter something that allows me to atain 60 MPH ASI, will it proportionalty increase my stall , which is at present in still air 40 MPH ASI? Thank you for your views and opinions. And please note, I like the plane "AS IS", but would like to cruise with the other guys closer to their cruise. Perhaps something simple such as two quarter inch washers under the "rats-a-fratz" will take care of the necessary speed gain request. Ohio Ralph Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51236#51236 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:09 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar cruise --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Ralph: raise it to say 60 MPH ASI? Here's what I would do. Push the throttle forward. I don't know what rpm you are using to maintain a cruise of 55 mph. All Rotax two strokes like to run 5,800 rpm. Seems like a lot of rpm's to the uneducated. However, this is 75% power, and they like this speed. You may run your engine all the way to 6,500 rpm maximum continuous rpm. It is designed to operate at these speeds. | The second question that relates to the above is: | If I alter something that allows me to atain 60 MPH ASI, will it proportionalty increase my stall , which is at present in still air 40 MPH ASI? Not unless you eat a lot of breakfast before you decide to fly 60 mph. john h mkIII PS: With some experience cross country flying the original FS with 447, and US with Cuyuna ULII02. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:45 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar cruise Ralph, Are your lift struts streamlined? That's the easiest way to get where you want. A buddy of mine told me he gained 10 mph by streamlining the struts on his Minimax. Try this for quick strut covers. Go to an engineering drawing supply house and get the thickest mylar sheet available on a roll. 10 feet of 36" wide sheet will make four covers. Cut the sheet into 9" wide strips, fold in half and crease. If you can talk the wife out of her sewing machine (or better yet get her to sew it) and use it to close what will be the trailing edge with a zig zag stitch. Slide them over your lift struts and trim to fit. Use a little tape to set their angle of attack and adjust until your happy. I didn't invent this method, another Ralph, Ralph Senter of Seattle made his flying money for a couple of summers at Dog Mtn. selling these to guys who wanted their single surface hang gliders to go a bit faster. Worked great. On 7/31/06, Ralph Hoover wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" > > > Now that I am actually flying and have come to the conclusion that the > Kolb is an extreemly forgiving aircraft, I find I have a few questions. The > plane is a Kolb Firestar KXP 1990 w/503 and standard two blade prop. > > The first question is as follows: > Since cruise speed is 55 MPH on the ASI's (I have two), how might I raise > it to say 60 MPH ASI? I would like to do this with the least amount of > alteration to the craft as posible. My reason is I will be flying with some > friends from my field thaat have a Challenger two place short wing with 503 > and a Titon with a 503. > > The second question that relates to the above is: > If I alter something that allows me to atain 60 MPH ASI, will it > proportionalty increase my stall , which is at present in still air 40 MPH > ASI? > > Thank you for your views and opinions. And please note, I like the plane > "AS IS", but would like to cruise with the other guys closer to their > cruise. Perhaps something simple such as two quarter inch washers under the > "rats-a-fratz" will take care of the necessary speed gain request. > > Ohio Ralph > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51236#51236 > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:34 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: Matronics Email List Web Server Upgrade Tonight... --> Kolb-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, This evening I will be upgrading the Matronics Web Server hardware to a new Quad-processor 2.8Ghz Xeon system (yes, 4-physical CPUs!) with an Ultra 320 SCSI Raid 5 disk system and 5GB of DDR2 RAM. As with the older system, the new system will be running the latest version of Redhat Linux. Most of the software configuration work is already done for the migration, but I still have to sync all of the archive and forum data from the old system to the new system. I am anticipating about 2 to 3 hours of downtime for me to fully make the transition, although it could be considerable less if everything goes according to plan. The Matronics Webserver will be *UNavailable* from the Internet during the work, and you will receive a time-out if you try to connect during the upgrade. Email List Distribution will be *available* during the upgrade of the Web Server, and List message distribution will function as normal. This represents a significant performance upgrade for the Matronics Web Server and you should notice nicely improved searching and surfing performance following the upgrade! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:11 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar cruise --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike If it were me, I would first put fairings around the landing gear legs, I already know that helps. Also the lift struts if they are not presently streamlined. Then I would make all the tubes of the upper fuselage that are in the air flow to be streamlined, including the aileron pushrods. Finally, I would gap seal between the inside edges of the horizontal stab and the fuselage tube, and gap seal the rudder to the vertical fin, and the elevators to the stab. And I bet that would do it with out changing the stall speed a bit, with minimal addition of weight. And the reason I say "If it were me," is because I plan to do all those things to the MKIII this winter. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Ralph Hoover wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph Hoover" > > Now that I am actually flying and have come to the conclusion that the Kolb is an extreemly forgiving aircraft, I find I have a few questions. The plane is a Kolb Firestar KXP 1990 w/503 and standard two blade prop. > > The first question is as follows: > Since cruise speed is 55 MPH on the ASI's (I have two), how might I raise it to say 60 MPH ASI? I would like to do this with the least amount of alteration to the craft as posible. My reason is I will be flying with some friends from my field thaat have a Challenger two place short wing with 503 and a Titon with a 503. > > The second question that relates to the above is: > If I alter something that allows me to atain 60 MPH ASI, will it proportionalty increase my stall , which is at present in still air 40 MPH ASI? > > Thank you for your views and opinions. And please note, I like the plane "AS IS", but would like to cruise with the other guys closer to their cruise. Perhaps something simple such as two quarter inch washers under the "rats-a-fratz" will take care of the necessary speed gain request. > > Ohio Ralph > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51236#51236 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:15 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Kolb-List: MKIII for sale --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike Got a call from Will Tatham this afternoon, he has his MKIII up for sale. He is putting it on Barnstormers.com, and he is also selling a new exhaust system for a 503, and a supply of 2-cycle oil. He is at Findlay, OH Phone # 419-423-7075. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:32 PM PST US From: HShack@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb to be burned at end of flying season In a message dated 7/30/2006 6:48:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, biglar@gogittum.com writes: Hmmm........interesting, and good to know. I was told by several people that it wouldn't support combustion by itself. Calls for more caution, eh ?? Lar. When we rebuilt my FS II, we did the full Stits process & finished with Aerothane. When we tried to burn a sample, it would NOT self sustain. Howard Shackleford FS II SC ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:59 PM PST US From: " Chuck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb to be burned at end of flying season I'm wondering why your going to burn the Kolb?? I must of missed something. ----- Original Message ----- From: HShack@aol.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:26 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb to be burned at end of flying season In a message dated 7/30/2006 6:48:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, biglar@gogittum.com writes: Hmmm........interesting, and good to know. I was told by several people that it wouldn't support combustion by itself. Calls for more caution, eh ?? Lar. When we rebuilt my FS II, we did the full Stits process & finished with Aerothane. When we tried to burn a sample, it would NOT self sustain. Howard Shackleford FS II SC