Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:36 AM - Re: Oskosh (Chuck Stonex)
2. 08:28 AM - FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (Jack B. Hart)
3. 08:53 AM - Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (Richard Pike)
4. 09:03 AM - Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (George T. Alexander, Jr.)
5. 10:34 AM - Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (Terry)
6. 02:26 PM - Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (Eugene Zimmerman)
7. 09:15 PM - Firestar II HKS Conversion (Dave Bigelow)
8. 09:25 PM - Re: Firestar II HKS Conversion (Richard Pike)
9. 09:32 PM - Re: Firestar II HKS Conversion (Guillermo Uribe)
Message 1
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Message 2
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| Subject: | FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 04:43 PM 7/31/06 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" <dcreech3@hotmail.com>
>
>Well, maybe. I'm not convinced, but I have to admit I don't really know.
>I've never thought it was necessary to "tease the throttle forward". I
>don't JAM it forward, but that's out of respect for the engine, not concern
>about nosing over. Empirically, it would be easy enough to determine
>whether the prop wash extends down as far as the elevator or not, just by
>getting down on your hands and knees immediately behind a Kolb with the
>engine running. I'm going to guess you will get a faceful of wind. :)
>
Lee, John H. and FireFlyers,
It has been HOT and so I took some measurements to determine what the true
case would be for the FireFly. Then I tufted the horizontal tail surfaces
to see the direct airflow over the stabilizer and elevator. I found out
that John H. was correct in that the propeller wash does contact the
horizontal tail surfaces on the FireFly.
At maximum up elevator, 14.3% of the elevator area is hit by propeller wash.
At the neutral position, 1.8% of the elevator area is hit by the propeller
wash. I tufted the tail to see if these numbers were reasonable and they
are.
How it was done can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly129.html
If you are interested in checking out your plane, I would recommend using a
fishing rod with a foam fishing bobber attached. This way you can readily
feel the difference between entrained air and direct propeller wash. It is
much simpler than tufting.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces |
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Message 4
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| Subject: | FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George T. Alexander, Jr." <gtalexander@att.net>
Whether you agree or disagree with what he is saying, understand what he is
saying, want to challenge what he is saying, you gotta love this guy.
Can't wait for Ralph of Ohio's response.
Thanks Jack!
Awed George
PS: He did live in the "Show Me" state before he moved to the "Hoosier"
state didn't he?
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack B. Hart
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 12:36 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart"
--> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
At 04:43 PM 7/31/06 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" <dcreech3@hotmail.com>
>
>Well, maybe. I'm not convinced, but I have to admit I don't really know.
>I've never thought it was necessary to "tease the throttle forward". I
>don't JAM it forward, but that's out of respect for the engine, not
>concern about nosing over. Empirically, it would be easy enough to
>determine whether the prop wash extends down as far as the elevator or
>not, just by getting down on your hands and knees immediately behind a
>Kolb with the engine running. I'm going to guess you will get a
>faceful of wind. :)
>
Lee, John H. and FireFlyers,
It has been HOT and so I took some measurements to determine what the true
case would be for the FireFly. Then I tufted the horizontal tail surfaces
to see the direct airflow over the stabilizer and elevator. I found out
that John H. was correct in that the propeller wash does contact the
horizontal tail surfaces on the FireFly.
At maximum up elevator, 14.3% of the elevator area is hit by propeller wash.
At the neutral position, 1.8% of the elevator area is hit by the propeller
wash. I tufted the tail to see if these numbers were reasonable and they
are.
How it was done can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly129.html
If you are interested in checking out your plane, I would recommend using a
fishing rod with a foam fishing bobber attached. This way you can readily
feel the difference between entrained air and direct propeller wash. It is
much simpler than tufting.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry <tkrolfe@usadatanet.net>
Jack,
You did it again!!! Thanks for sharing your information with us. I
always look forward to seeing what your doing and the innovative
solutions you bring to problems or questions.
I noticed that you have raised the horizontal stab above factory specs
as have I. I got a cleaner flight by doing so with out doing trim
tabs. I have mine 5/8" above standard, what is yours? I know this is
dependent on the pilots weight being a factor and the speed at which you
cruise. For me, I have found the sweet spot on my FireFly.
For Richard, concerning sealing the gap between the stab and boom, would
an air dam made out of lexan along the inside edge of the stab work as
well? Let us know how you make out with this.
Terry - FireFly #95
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
On Aug 9, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Terry wrote:
> For Richard, concerning sealing the gap between the stab and boom,
> would an air dam made out of lexan along the inside edge of the
> stab work as well?
I thought about gluing a strip of foam rubber to the boom tube.
The up elevator seems plenty effective enough as it is on my
Firestar, but a Mark III with two up may find some definite advantage
with the gap sealed.
Perhaps I'll wait till someone finds a noticeable advantage with this
gap sealed.
Gene
Message 7
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| Subject: | Firestar II HKS Conversion |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
I've been working with Jerry Olenick of Green Sky Adventures over the past month
or so to determine the feasibility of converting my Firestar 2 from Rotax 503
power to HKS 700E power. After lots of tape measure work and study of the engine
drawings, plus a number of pictures and emails back and forth, we believe
the conversion can be done without modification of the orginal Firestar engine
mounts. I ordered the engine today, and it should arrive sometime in the next
month or so.
Assuming the conversion works OK, Jerry will produce a kit to sell with the HKS
that will be designed specifically for the Firestar 2. Since the HKS has worked
out quite well as a direct replacement for Rotax 582's on other ultralights,
there is some possibility that the HKS could be used on the Mark III and Slingshot
also.
If there is interest here on the Kolb List, I'll periodically post pictures and
progress reports. Let's keep questions and comments on the List, rather than
private emails. I have a question for the "conversion master", John Hauck, if
he will be so kind as to post that he's seen this thread.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53795#53795
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Firestar II HKS Conversion |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org>
I will be extra interested, because by comparing the performance of the
HKS FSII with our 582 FSII, we ought to be able to do a pretty good job
of comparing the 582 to the HKS.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
Dave Bigelow wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
>
> I've been working with Jerry Olenick of Green Sky Adventures over the past month
or so to determine the feasibility of converting my Firestar 2 from Rotax
503 power to HKS 700E power. After lots of tape measure work and study of the
engine drawings, plus a number of pictures and emails back and forth, we believe
the conversion can be done without modification of the orginal Firestar engine
mounts. I ordered the engine today, and it should arrive sometime in the
next month or so.
>
> Assuming the conversion works OK, Jerry will produce a kit to sell with the HKS
that will be designed specifically for the Firestar 2. Since the HKS has worked
out quite well as a direct replacement for Rotax 582's on other ultralights,
there is some possibility that the HKS could be used on the Mark III and
Slingshot also.
>
> If there is interest here on the Kolb List, I'll periodically post pictures and
progress reports. Let's keep questions and comments on the List, rather than
private emails. I have a question for the "conversion master", John Hauck,
if he will be so kind as to post that he's seen this thread.
>
> --------
> Dave Bigelow
> Kamuela, Hawaii
> FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53795#53795
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Firestar II HKS Conversion |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Guillermo Uribe" <WillUribe@aol.com>
Hi Dave,
I would be very interested in know how it works out for you. Please keep us
posted.
Do not archive
Regards,
Will Uribe
FireStar II
El Paso, TX
http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Bigelow
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 10:15 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar II HKS Conversion
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" <up_country@hotmail.com>
I've been working with Jerry Olenick of Green Sky Adventures over the past
month or so to determine the feasibility of converting my Firestar 2 from
Rotax 503 power to HKS 700E power. After lots of tape measure work and
study of the engine drawings, plus a number of pictures and emails back and
forth, we believe the conversion can be done without modification of the
orginal Firestar engine mounts. I ordered the engine today, and it should
arrive sometime in the next month or so.
Assuming the conversion works OK, Jerry will produce a kit to sell with the
HKS that will be designed specifically for the Firestar 2. Since the HKS
has worked out quite well as a direct replacement for Rotax 582's on other
ultralights, there is some possibility that the HKS could be used on the
Mark III and Slingshot also.
If there is interest here on the Kolb List, I'll periodically post pictures
and progress reports. Let's keep questions and comments on the List, rather
than private emails. I have a question for the "conversion master", John
Hauck, if he will be so kind as to post that he's seen this thread.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53795#53795
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