---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/09/06: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:36 AM - Re: Oskosh (Chuck Stonex) 2. 08:28 AM - FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (Jack B. Hart) 3. 08:53 AM - Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (Richard Pike) 4. 09:03 AM - Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (George T. Alexander, Jr.) 5. 10:34 AM - Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (Terry) 6. 02:26 PM - Re: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces (Eugene Zimmerman) 7. 09:15 PM - Firestar II HKS Conversion (Dave Bigelow) 8. 09:25 PM - Re: Firestar II HKS Conversion (Richard Pike) 9. 09:32 PM - Re: Firestar II HKS Conversion (Guillermo Uribe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:42 AM PST US From: "Chuck Stonex" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Oskosh --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:05 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" At 04:43 PM 7/31/06 -0400, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" > >Well, maybe. I'm not convinced, but I have to admit I don't really know. >I've never thought it was necessary to "tease the throttle forward". I >don't JAM it forward, but that's out of respect for the engine, not concern >about nosing over. Empirically, it would be easy enough to determine >whether the prop wash extends down as far as the elevator or not, just by >getting down on your hands and knees immediately behind a Kolb with the >engine running. I'm going to guess you will get a faceful of wind. :) > Lee, John H. and FireFlyers, It has been HOT and so I took some measurements to determine what the true case would be for the FireFly. Then I tufted the horizontal tail surfaces to see the direct airflow over the stabilizer and elevator. I found out that John H. was correct in that the propeller wash does contact the horizontal tail surfaces on the FireFly. At maximum up elevator, 14.3% of the elevator area is hit by propeller wash. At the neutral position, 1.8% of the elevator area is hit by the propeller wash. I tufted the tail to see if these numbers were reasonable and they are. How it was done can be seen at: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly129.html If you are interested in checking out your plane, I would recommend using a fishing rod with a foam fishing bobber attached. This way you can readily feel the difference between entrained air and direct propeller wash. It is much simpler than tufting. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:20 AM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:44 AM PST US From: "George T. Alexander, Jr." Subject: RE: Kolb-List: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George T. Alexander, Jr." Whether you agree or disagree with what he is saying, understand what he is saying, want to challenge what he is saying, you gotta love this guy. Can't wait for Ralph of Ohio's response. Thanks Jack! Awed George PS: He did live in the "Show Me" state before he moved to the "Hoosier" state didn't he? DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack B. Hart Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 12:36 PM Subject: Kolb-List: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" --> At 04:43 PM 7/31/06 -0400, you wrote: >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" > >Well, maybe. I'm not convinced, but I have to admit I don't really know. >I've never thought it was necessary to "tease the throttle forward". I >don't JAM it forward, but that's out of respect for the engine, not >concern about nosing over. Empirically, it would be easy enough to >determine whether the prop wash extends down as far as the elevator or >not, just by getting down on your hands and knees immediately behind a >Kolb with the engine running. I'm going to guess you will get a >faceful of wind. :) > Lee, John H. and FireFlyers, It has been HOT and so I took some measurements to determine what the true case would be for the FireFly. Then I tufted the horizontal tail surfaces to see the direct airflow over the stabilizer and elevator. I found out that John H. was correct in that the propeller wash does contact the horizontal tail surfaces on the FireFly. At maximum up elevator, 14.3% of the elevator area is hit by propeller wash. At the neutral position, 1.8% of the elevator area is hit by the propeller wash. I tufted the tail to see if these numbers were reasonable and they are. How it was done can be seen at: http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly129.html If you are interested in checking out your plane, I would recommend using a fishing rod with a foam fishing bobber attached. This way you can readily feel the difference between entrained air and direct propeller wash. It is much simpler than tufting. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:31 AM PST US From: Terry Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces --> Kolb-List message posted by: Terry Jack, You did it again!!! Thanks for sharing your information with us. I always look forward to seeing what your doing and the innovative solutions you bring to problems or questions. I noticed that you have raised the horizontal stab above factory specs as have I. I got a cleaner flight by doing so with out doing trim tabs. I have mine 5/8" above standard, what is yours? I know this is dependent on the pilots weight being a factor and the speed at which you cruise. For me, I have found the sweet spot on my FireFly. For Richard, concerning sealing the gap between the stab and boom, would an air dam made out of lexan along the inside edge of the stab work as well? Let us know how you make out with this. Terry - FireFly #95 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:10 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FireFly Propeller Wash Over Horizontal Tail Surfaces --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman On Aug 9, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Terry wrote: > For Richard, concerning sealing the gap between the stab and boom, > would an air dam made out of lexan along the inside edge of the > stab work as well? I thought about gluing a strip of foam rubber to the boom tube. The up elevator seems plenty effective enough as it is on my Firestar, but a Mark III with two up may find some definite advantage with the gap sealed. Perhaps I'll wait till someone finds a noticeable advantage with this gap sealed. Gene ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:09 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar II HKS Conversion From: "Dave Bigelow" --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" I've been working with Jerry Olenick of Green Sky Adventures over the past month or so to determine the feasibility of converting my Firestar 2 from Rotax 503 power to HKS 700E power. After lots of tape measure work and study of the engine drawings, plus a number of pictures and emails back and forth, we believe the conversion can be done without modification of the orginal Firestar engine mounts. I ordered the engine today, and it should arrive sometime in the next month or so. Assuming the conversion works OK, Jerry will produce a kit to sell with the HKS that will be designed specifically for the Firestar 2. Since the HKS has worked out quite well as a direct replacement for Rotax 582's on other ultralights, there is some possibility that the HKS could be used on the Mark III and Slingshot also. If there is interest here on the Kolb List, I'll periodically post pictures and progress reports. Let's keep questions and comments on the List, rather than private emails. I have a question for the "conversion master", John Hauck, if he will be so kind as to post that he's seen this thread. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53795#53795 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:54 PM PST US From: Richard Pike Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar II HKS Conversion --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike I will be extra interested, because by comparing the performance of the HKS FSII with our 582 FSII, we ought to be able to do a pretty good job of comparing the 582 to the HKS. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive Dave Bigelow wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" > > I've been working with Jerry Olenick of Green Sky Adventures over the past month or so to determine the feasibility of converting my Firestar 2 from Rotax 503 power to HKS 700E power. After lots of tape measure work and study of the engine drawings, plus a number of pictures and emails back and forth, we believe the conversion can be done without modification of the orginal Firestar engine mounts. I ordered the engine today, and it should arrive sometime in the next month or so. > > Assuming the conversion works OK, Jerry will produce a kit to sell with the HKS that will be designed specifically for the Firestar 2. Since the HKS has worked out quite well as a direct replacement for Rotax 582's on other ultralights, there is some possibility that the HKS could be used on the Mark III and Slingshot also. > > If there is interest here on the Kolb List, I'll periodically post pictures and progress reports. Let's keep questions and comments on the List, rather than private emails. I have a question for the "conversion master", John Hauck, if he will be so kind as to post that he's seen this thread. > > -------- > Dave Bigelow > Kamuela, Hawaii > FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53795#53795 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:10 PM PST US From: "Guillermo Uribe" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar II HKS Conversion --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Guillermo Uribe" Hi Dave, I would be very interested in know how it works out for you. Please keep us posted. Do not archive Regards, Will Uribe FireStar II El Paso, TX http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Bigelow Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 10:15 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Firestar II HKS Conversion --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave Bigelow" I've been working with Jerry Olenick of Green Sky Adventures over the past month or so to determine the feasibility of converting my Firestar 2 from Rotax 503 power to HKS 700E power. After lots of tape measure work and study of the engine drawings, plus a number of pictures and emails back and forth, we believe the conversion can be done without modification of the orginal Firestar engine mounts. I ordered the engine today, and it should arrive sometime in the next month or so. Assuming the conversion works OK, Jerry will produce a kit to sell with the HKS that will be designed specifically for the Firestar 2. Since the HKS has worked out quite well as a direct replacement for Rotax 582's on other ultralights, there is some possibility that the HKS could be used on the Mark III and Slingshot also. If there is interest here on the Kolb List, I'll periodically post pictures and progress reports. Let's keep questions and comments on the List, rather than private emails. I have a question for the "conversion master", John Hauck, if he will be so kind as to post that he's seen this thread. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53795#53795