Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:04 AM - Source of Lexan (jerb)
2. 05:37 AM - Re: Sport Pilot (Thom Riddle)
3. 06:03 AM - Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight) (Thom Riddle)
4. 06:48 AM - Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight) (jimhefner)
5. 06:51 AM - Re: Emailing: DSC_0015, El Mirage (jimhefner)
6. 09:51 AM - 180 back to runway (Jason Omelchuck)
7. 10:00 AM - Re: Flutter Question (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
8. 10:31 AM - Re: Fw: hangar visitors (john s. flannery)
9. 10:41 AM - Re: Sport Pilot (john s. flannery)
10. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: Flutter Question (David Downey)
11. 12:33 PM - Flutter, or Carb Ice? (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL)
12. 02:46 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (russ kinne)
13. 02:47 PM - Re: Flutter Question (planecrazzzy)
14. 07:22 PM - Re: Landing light wagger (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
15. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: Flutter Question (Richard Girard)
16. 08:04 PM - Dart flys again (Larry Cottrell)
17. 09:01 PM - fuel troubles (Larry Cottrell)
18. 09:08 PM - Re: Dart flys again (Bob Dalton)
Message 1
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
From: Jay D <jaydew@localnet.com>
Subject: [cgshawk] Tinted Lexan
FYI, if anyone is interested, I found the best price on .062
tinted lexan at
Bruce Plastics Inc
1061 Highway 109 N, Gallatin, TN 37066
(615) 452-7757
(615) 452-7672 (fax)
(800) 952-7757 (toll-free) PHONE
4x8 sheets for $69 ea.
Jay D
Message 2
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Va (maneuvering speed) is not specified on an ASI. One of those
one needs to remember, like Vx and Vy.
Ed in JXN
Ed,
You are correct and am glad you made note of it here. The top of green
arc and bottom of yellow arc is supposed to be Vno, which is structural
cruising speed, sometimes referred to as Normal Operating speed, hence
the Vno. For what its worth, Va is a calculated value which is equal to
the square root of the positive limit load (3.8 G in normal category
aircraft) multiplied by the stall speed at current weight and flap
configuration. Therefore it moves all over the map depending upon
current stall speed which is dependent upon weight and flap extension.
Thom in Buffalo
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight) |
....He did a simulator turn back test at different bank angles, showing
a 60-70 degree turn will make it back, a 45 degree turn just made it
with no margin and anything less didn't make it. He noted a 4 sec "oh
shucks" decision delay for taking action after the engine stops that
was included in the simulator run.....
--------
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Jim,
I am glad you related this. It flies in the face of most instructors'
instructions and FAA's sacred scriptures, but is true if done
correctly. I suspect that their fear of pilots not keeping the airspeed
up to prevent a high load factor stall and spin is what is behind this
"official rule" to never turn back, and they are correct if you try to
maintain altitude at near stall speed while banking steeply. But trying
to do that is insane and lethal, so they simplify it so the poor pilots
don't have to think or understand and their lawyers are happy.
One must try this at safe altitude to believe it but it is much quicker
with less altitude loss to turn quickly at 45 degrees and high airspeed
to prevent stalling than to make a slow wide low bank turn. It may be
still quicker at 60 degrees but I'm not comfortable at that steep an
angle, so I stick to 45 degrees or so and maintain airspeed about 50%
above stall speed. In a high thrust line aircraft it is imperative to
get the nose down immediately after sudden power loss due to the nose
up pitching moment that results from sudden loss of thrust and keep
speed up as you bank steeply. I do this test several times at safe
altitude every time I fly a new-to-me airplane so I'll know my min.
altitude for a turn back on departure if power fails. I double the
altitude loss to compensate for the time delay from the mental shock of
engine loss, and before getting to this altitude AGL my mind is
prepared only for a straight ahead landing. This decision AGL height
should already be made before take-off roll is begun.
Thanks again, Jim. So glad to hear some rational thought in the safety
seminars. I attend them in my area regularly but have not heard this
"new" turn back speech.
Thom in Buffalo
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 180 turn back to runway (first flight) |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "jimhefner" <hefner_jim@msn.com>
Sorry for the SP confusion... Sport Pilot is what I meant. He did ask about Student
Pilots and quite a few of us raised our hands and then he clarified that
he didn't say holders of Student Pilot Certificates and therefore everyone in
the room should have held up their hands... :)
Thom, I was surprised but happy to see that AOPA took a positive stand on this
topic as well. I think the difference in the simulator run for a Kolb vs most
GA planes, meaning short take off roll and high climb rate, would show that a
45 degree bank would be plenty to make it back safely. The point was that a
steep turn takes much less time and even though the altitude loss is more, you
complete the turn at a higher altitude and have more time for the glide back.
I know in the Firefly, taking off on a 4200' asphalt runway is very high by
the end of the runway so it would be pretty easy to turn back at that point or
beyond a good ways. One of my friends makes a habit of climbing off to the right
and paralleling the runway after liftoff so a turn back would be 180 degrees,
not more, if needed. Many airports won't allow this due to congestion, obstructions,
noise abatement, etc, but if you are flying from wide open spaces
this is also a good strategy.
--------
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Firefly #022 447, 2 blade IVO, BRS-750
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=64487#64487
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Emailing: DSC_0015, El Mirage |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "jimhefner" <hefner_jim@msn.com>
Russ, you are right... x/c is more proper.
--------
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Firefly #022 447, 2 blade IVO, BRS-750
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=64488#64488
Message 6
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| Subject: | 180 back to runway |
George Thompson wrote:
I can't argue with your results (and your excellent flying skills) but why
not land straight ahead with 5000 feet staring at you? it was drummed into
us student pilots years ago to go straight ahead except in the most unusual
circumstances.
As Bald Eagle
I was at 500' directly over the departure end, all of that 5000' was behind
me.
Jason
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
<< You say the counter balances were shortened. Are they still in
balance? Installing them and doing a careful balance has the flutter
threshold beyond 120 mph, now. Rick G >>
Rick -
My counterbalance rods are about 2 inches shorter from the 100% balanced
length. That would still yield at least 80% balanced - way better than
nothing, but ... maybe not enough.
Your Kolb can go 120? WOW - Impressive!
At WOT, my Mark-III does somewhere between 70 and 75.
Dennis Kirby
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: hangar visitors |
Lasr, May still be old address Current jsflan@valornet.com
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bourne
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: hangar visitors
Hmmm.......tried to email you off List, but your email address
wouldn't copy and paste. I'm holding it in my Drafts folder.
Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: john s. flannery
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: hangar visitors
Hear you are a photographer. Didn't you do some stuff near Blanding,
Utah?
jsf do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bourne
Message 9
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Right, good point.
1956 Cessna 180 Operating manual:
"Maneuvering Speed* . . . . 122 mph
(The maximum speed at which you can use abrupt control travel without
exceeding the design load factor.) "
And if you don't heed this, you immediately become a test pilot,
usually with no Falschirm (Parachute).
jsf
Do Not Archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: Thom Riddle
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Sport Pilot
Va (maneuvering speed) is not specified on an ASI. One of those
one needs to remember, like Vx and Vy.
Ed in JXN
Ed,
You are correct and am glad you made note of it here. The top of green
arc and bottom of yellow arc is supposed to be Vno, which is structural
cruising speed, sometimes referred to as Normal Operating speed, hence
the Vno. For what its worth, Va is a calculated value which is equal to
the square root of the positive limit load (3.8 G in normal category
aircraft) multiplied by the stall speed at current weight and flap
configuration. Therefore it moves all over the map depending upon
current stall speed which is dependent upon weight and flap extension.
Thom in Buffalo
do not archive
--> http://forums.matronics.com
http://wiki.matronics.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Question |
flutter is not a linear phenomenon. 80% arm length may not be 80% effectivness...
Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil> wrote: --> Kolb-List
message posted by: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL"
<< You say the counter balances were shortened. Are they still in
balance? Installing them and doing a careful balance has the flutter
threshold beyond 120 mph, now. Rick G >>
Rick -
My counterbalance rods are about 2 inches shorter from the 100% balanced
length. That would still yield at least 80% balanced - way better than
nothing, but ... maybe not enough.
Your Kolb can go 120? WOW - Impressive!
At WOT, my Mark-III does somewhere between 70 and 75.
Dennis Kirby
Dave Downey
in SE PA
Carpe Tigercubium
---------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Flutter, or Carb Ice? |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
(I changed the Subject line ...)
<< You didn't mention feeling the flutter on the stick. Before I
installed counter balances on my MK3 I encountered flutter at about 85
mph and it was very evident in the stick. A vibration in the airframe
can come from a miss in the engine. My first and only experience with
carb ice on the 912 caused a couple of short bursts of vibration due to
the engine missing as the ice broke loose. This happened twice in about
a 15 minute period. Steven Green >>
Hi, Steven -
Thanks for your input - what I encountered sounds very much like the
carb ice incident you describe.
Reason: I don't recall feeling any unusual vibration in the stick.
And from your description, it sounds like I could not have MISSED it, if
it was the aileron fluttering.
On that day, I was flying within 500 feet of cloud bottoms, temps around
60 degrees - classic conditions for carb ice (in hindsight). I was also
flying for extended periods at a constant power setting. (I was
conducting fuel burn trials - was trying to keep the RPMs constant.)
I wonder if changing power settings occasionally might help here, when
flying in high-carb-ice-likelihood conditions?
Dennis Kirby
Mk-III, 912ul, 58 hrs TT
Message 12
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FWIW on a 170 it's 124
do not archive
On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:41 PM, john s. flannery wrote:
> Right, good point.
>
> 1956 Cessna 180 Operating manual:
> "Maneuvering Speed* . . . . 122 mph
> (The maximum speed at which you can use abrupt control travel
> without exceeding the design load factor.) "
>
> And if you don't heed this, you immediately become a test pilot,
> usually with no Falschirm (Parachute).
>
> jsf
>
> Do Not Archive.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thom Riddle
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Sport Pilot
>
> Va (maneuvering speed) is not specified on an ASI. One of those
> one needs to remember, like Vx and Vy.
>
> Ed in JXN
>
> Ed,
>
> You are correct and am glad you made note of it here. The top of
> green arc and bottom of yellow arc is supposed to be Vno, which is
> structural cruising speed, sometimes referred to as Normal
> Operating speed, hence the Vno. For what its worth, Va is a
> calculated value which is equal to the square root of the positive
> limit load (3.8 G in normal category aircraft) multiplied by the
> stall speed at current weight and flap configuration. Therefore it
> moves all over the map depending upon current stall speed which is
> dependent upon weight and flap extension.
>
> Thom in Buffalo
> do not archive
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Question |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
Hey Guys,
I didn't like the way the counter balancers "stuck out" when the
ailerons were in the folded position .... So I made a cross brace to hold them
pointing straight up.... ( and I tow it with an OPEN trailer )
I put a rope on it and a red flag with bugie to the tail wheel...
Aslo I didn't like how they rubbed on the tail when folded...
Here's a picture of the simple brace that I made...
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
.
.
.
Dave Pelletier wrote:
> Dennis,
>
> You've got enough responses to your question without me adding two
> cents. But I'm addressing the shrotened countrerbalance weights. I had the
> same problem on my Firestar - too long to get into the trailer. You can
> drill holes to mount the weights in the "correct" length, then when you're
> getting ready to store the plane in the trailer, remove the bolts, drop the
> rods down to where they are now and temporarily re-bolt them. That's what I
> did with my Firestar. You only have to remove and replace two bolts so it's
> not like a major job.
>
> AzDave
>
>
> > My plane IS equipped with the aileron counterbalance rods (thanks again,
> > J.Hauck), but they are slightly shortened to accommodate wing folding.
> >
> > Dennis Kirby
> > Cedar Crest, NM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=64562#64562
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aileron_support_tube_813.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aileron_support_410.jpg
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Landing light wagger |
Does anyone remember who it was that was telling us about the Landing light
wagger I am looking for info on where to buy one and if I remebered corectly He
had a part number for it
any info on this would be appreciated
Ellery In Original Firestar
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Flutter Question |
Yours will probably go that fast if you point it down enough. I don't
recommend it and I only did it once. It did satisfy me that I don't need to
worry about flutter of the ailerons anymore.
It's a shame you didn't get a look at the ailerons when you felt what you
thought was flutter. If I can ever find the short scrap of flim my buddy
took of the second incident, i'll post it.
Rick
On 9/28/06, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" <
> Dennis.Kirby@kirtland.af.mil>
>
> << You say the counter balances were shortened. Are they still in
> balance? Installing them and doing a careful balance has the flutter
> threshold beyond 120 mph, now. Rick G >>
>
> Rick -
>
> My counterbalance rods are about 2 inches shorter from the 100% balanced
> length. That would still yield at least 80% balanced - way better than
> nothing, but ... maybe not enough.
>
> Your Kolb can go 120? WOW - Impressive!
> At WOT, my Mark-III does somewhere between 70 and 75.
>
> Dennis Kirby
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 16
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Hi,
I am happy to report that Dart (Firestar II) after an extreme amount
of money has taken to the air again. Almost every thing is new. I did
have a head scratcher with a fuel problem which I will explain later. My
much neglected wife needs my presence.
Larry
Message 17
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As I mentioned earlier I finished the Firestar to the point that I could
get her back in the air. As you might remember I had to make an off
field landing in the first part of May and ended up on my back with my
wheels in the air.
The only real damage to the structure was the tube that the rudder
pedals set on. The fabric was trashed in transporting it to a trailer
across hill and dale. I found when I recovered it that auto paint and
stitts fabric apparently do not mix well. At least that was the AD that
came with my covering kit. The paint of course was auto paint. I had
wanted to recover it this winter any way. Just not at the beginning of
summer.
I decided that if I was going to have to traverse this hostile terrain
then I would need bigger tires, less air. I got some rims from Thom, put
800x6 on them. Got some new landing gear from Terry Davis. Next was a
new pod from TNK, EIS with a remote which I mounted on the stick grip
(new)( Thanks John Williamson for the idea). I made a gascolater (Jim
Heffner) ordered new tubing, pulse line, ELT, ( so the wife can find me)
Strobes, new Warp Drive prop, new fuel sending tubes, (still don't work,
wrong solution to the problem obviously).
I spent about a month and half working on getting the new place squared
away, and getting ready for the winter to come. Then finally on Aug 18
Roger Hankins came over to help me get started. We worked 16 hours a day
for 8 or 9 days getting the covering on. After that of course came the
paint process. Unfortunately due to desert conditions the paint is not
as perfect as the covering job, but it will do nicely.
So today I finally got every thing ready to test fly. I set my new prop
to 9 degrees (6200 on ground) and as I was getting ready to taxi,
noticed that there was something wrong with the fuel delivery. It seemed
to level out. I tried extended runs with the plane chained to the
tractor, but the prop was picking up rocks from the ground and I had to
quit. Karen went half way down the runway to watch, and I gave it full
throttle and took off. I got up a couple hundred feet and the rpm's cut
back. I whipped around and put it on the ground and taxied back to the
hanger. To make a long story shorter, I first changed the main jet. (
needed to do that since I had remover the silencer) flew and had the
same problem. Cut out the gascolater, same. changed the pulse pump-same,
cut out the lines going to the gas selector - same, cut out the squeeze
bulb- bingo! That was a brand new bulb purchased from Aircraft Spruce to
replace the old one. It appeared to work ok, but apparently there was a
problem with the check valve in it. I could run at reduced rpm's just
not enough to climb. Lucky for me that it would at least keep on running
enough to get me around to the runway to land or I would have had
another sage brush landing again. Don't need that at all.
I am going to be tied up for tomorrow, but Sat will be when I can get to
her again and do some of the finish odds and ends left to do. I am going
to have to reset my prop a little less pitch, and then I will be able to
evaluate what the new warp will do. Daryl claimed that it would increase
my speed by about 10 MPH. I got the one with the nickel leading edge and
the mod to the tip. That particular mod cost me an extra 110 bucks
Its good to be back in the sky again!
Larry, Oregon
Message 18
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Larry,
Wow, you have been busy! Way to go, looking good!
_____
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 8:02 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Dart flys again
Hi,
I am happy to report that Dart (Firestar II) after an extreme amount of
money has taken to the air again. Almost every thing is new. I did have a
head scratcher with a fuel problem which I will explain later. My much
neglected wife needs my presence.
Larry
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