Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:04 AM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (Larry Bourne)
2. 06:24 AM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (John Hauck)
3. 06:57 AM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (Jim Baker)
4. 06:59 AM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (Richard Girard)
5. 08:57 AM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (Rex Rodebush)
6. 09:07 AM - Re: Re: Sport Pilot (Dave & Eve Pelletier)
7. 09:30 AM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (Charlie England)
8. 09:57 AM - Kolb Trade?... (David Lehman)
9. 10:08 AM - Re: Kolb Trade?... (Larry Cottrell)
10. 10:21 AM - Re: Kolb Trade?... (David.Lehman)
11. 11:36 AM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (George Thompson)
12. 11:51 AM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (John Hauck)
13. 11:56 AM - exceeding Vne (robert bean)
14. 12:18 PM - Re: exceeding Vne (George Myers)
15. 12:23 PM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (robert bean)
16. 01:13 PM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
17. 01:43 PM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (Jim Baker)
18. 04:13 PM - Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (Eugene Zimmerman)
19. 05:59 PM - Re: exceeding Vne (Larry Bourne)
20. 06:23 PM - Fw: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive (Larry Bourne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
It's solid, no cushioning. The theory the mfr explained to me was that the
belly in the chain caused by centrifugal force would act as a cushion.
Maybe, but it was still at cranking speed - not much speed for centrifugal
force to be a factor. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net>
>
>> Here's a picture of what I found. That chain
>> literally exploded.
>
> Holy crap! Just for info...is either drive hub/gear cushioned on
> the shaft or just bolted up solid?
>
>
> Jim Baker
> 580.788.2779
> Elmore City, OK
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
that the
| belly in the chain caused by centrifugal force would act as a
cushion.
Lar.
Larry:
How many of these redrives in operation?
Any idea how much time owners have accumulated on them?
Are they designed specifically for VW engines?
The 912ULS had a problem with gear box chatter at start up and idle,
even though it had a "ramp and dog" system same as the 912UL. The
difference being compression ratio. 912UL, I think, is 9 or 9.5 to 1.
The 912ULS is 10.5 to one. After 850 hours I installed the high
torque starter and slipper clutch. The 912ULS became a docile engine,
even more so than the 912UL.
I think what I am trying to say is, engines can behave quite violently
from torsional vibration, even when they are equipped to handle the
job. A high compression engine, in particular, will not tolerate
torsional vibration when there is no system to absorb it, e.g., a
solid chain drive. Not much absorbtion in chain drives.
Sorry to hear of your continued problem. Really takes the fun out of
building and hopefully flying your Kolb.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net>
> It's solid, no cushioning. The theory the mfr explained to me was that the
> belly in the chain caused by centrifugal force would act as a cushion.
> Maybe, but it was still at cranking speed - not much speed for centrifugal
> force to be a factor. Lar.
Well, that's a perpetuated lie (not from you, the Hy-Vo chain
community)....
http://www.epi-eng.com/GBX-ChainDrv.htm
Good info here. I feel for you in this effort, doing something no
one else has done isn't always easy. Obviously the chain was
overloaded which intimates a design flaw in material selection
(chain width, tooth pitch, static tension, alignment of sprokets,
etc). Was the chain tight enough to prevent tooth skipping? Just
random thoughts.....
Obviously overloaded but, man, look at the off-road transfer
cases that use these things...some of those take a beating far
worse and live. I'd probably look at turning the chain drive into a
spur gear system....I didn't save your picture so wondering if
there was enough room to fit a bearing carrier between the
gears. And searched the archives but didn't see it....who made
this PSRU?
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
Larry, This is truly what the word bummer was invented to describe. Have you
thought of adapting a Rotax gearbox to your engine? Might take a bit of
machine work, but you'd have a proven drive with only the adaptation to
de-bug. Just a thought.
Rick
On 10/1/06, Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com> wrote:
>
> I mentioned a problem with Vamoose' redrive a bit ago, and have been
> asked for more info, so I guess I should share it with all. I'm not really
> crazy about this, but.........
>
> I started the engine without the prop on a few weeks ago, and it ran
> great. NO OIL LEAKS ! ! ! I thought I was home free, and was daydreaming
> about actually flying the thing, and wanted to get it in the air by Nov. 15
> - the 10th anniversary of receiving the kit from TOK. I was really going
> for it - working on it every day after work.
>
> So, I bolted the prop back on, safety wired it, and lit 'er up. The
> engine started to fire, then backfired or kicked back - or both - and there
> was a loud bang and a jolt and the engine stopped. Hitting the starter
> didn't even wiggle the prop, so I shut everything off and tried hand
> propping it. Wouldn't move, so I tore that s.o.b. redrive off - again -
> and tore it apart - again. Here's a picture of what I found. That chain
> literally exploded. I think that's more than a great plenty. I've
> stubbornly worked thru several issues with that thing, and that's enuf. I
> don't want to fly in front of it, so it goes in the trash.
>
> From here ?? I dunno yet. I'm researching a couple of other redrives,
> but it's too early to say yet. I'll keep ya
> posted. Lar.
>
> Larry Bourne
> Palm Springs, CA
> Building Kolb Mk III
> Vamoose
> www.gogittum.com
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <rrodebush@tema.net>
Probably hit a torsional. Undamped torsional vibration can increase extreamly
fast to tremendous levels. I've seen a 6" 4340 shaft snapped off on a compressor
application and it happened in just a few seconds.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65209#65209
Message 6
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--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dave & Eve Pelletier" <pelletier@cableone.net>
Mike,
That's kinda what I've been doing. My question was mostly to see if
there was any published info that I should be aware of.
AzDave
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "planecrazzzy" <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 3:05 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Sport Pilot
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "planecrazzzy" <planecrazzzy@yahoo.com>
>
> The place to find out your "V" speeds , is your own plane...
>
> The only V-speed that does your plane any good is the Vne
>
> All the other speeds have to be found with your own plane , you can get a
> "Ballpark" idea from other peoples V-speeds , but your planes weight is
> different from theirs....
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Larry Bourne wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
>
> It's solid, no cushioning. The theory the mfr explained to me was
> that the belly in the chain caused by centrifugal force would act as a
> cushion. Maybe, but it was still at cranking speed - not much speed
> for centrifugal force to be a factor. Lar.
>
> Larry Bourne
> Palm Springs, CA
> Building Kolb Mk III
> Vamoose
> www.gogittum.com
Find different drive maker that understands engineering & physics
instead of old wives' (hangar) tales. A 4 cyl engine has large torque
reversals between each power pulse. That's what breaks cranks on direct
drive auto conversions.
For a chain drive with no torsion damping, think about the difference
between a weight hanging on a chain & the same weight if you repeatedly
jerk on the chain, timing the jerks so each jerk happens just as the
weight bottoms out. If you get the weight flying high enough, think
about the force on the chain as the weight 'hits bottom' the next time
you jerk the chain. You can break a very large chain with a very small
weight doing this.
Charlie
Message 8
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|
A friend of mine wants a Firestar II...
He has a:
**
*Cessna 1976 150M Texas Taildragger*
**
for sale or trade for FS II plus cash...
150 is based on the left coast... He can be reached at depdale@charter.net
...
DVD
do not archive
--
"Attitude is everything ~ pick a good one"...
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Trade?... |
How much cash????????? figuring that most resale value for a firestar is
between 10-and 15K
Larry, Or
----- Original Message -----
From: David Lehman
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:57 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Trade?...
A friend of mine wants a Firestar II...
He has a:
Cessna 1976 150M Texas Taildragger
for sale or trade for FS II plus cash...
150 is based on the left coast... He can be reached at
depdale@charter.net ...
DVD
do not archive
--
"Attitude is everything ~ pick a good one"...
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Trade?... |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David.Lehman" <david@davidlehman.net>
[quote="lcottrell"]How much cash????????? figuring that most resale value for a
firestar is between 10-and 15K
Larry, Or
> ---
Morning Larry...
Contact Dale at depdale@charter.net for more info... I do have a "flyer" with
more information, but it's about 8 meg.... If you want me to send it to you send
me your e-mail address at david@davidlehman.net ...
The 150 is hangared at Oceano, CA (L52)...
Regards...
DVD
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65243#65243
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
I can feel your frustration Larry. But like some of the other members
have said, I don't think you can have a direct power transfer without
some sort of slippage or shock absorbing unit. I'm certainly not an
expert of these re drives but many use cog belts. Have you given these a
thought?
As Bald Eagle
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bourne
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive
I mentioned a problem with Vamoose' redrive a bit ago, and have been
asked for more info, so I guess I should share it with all. I'm not
really crazy about this, but.........
I started the engine without the prop on a few weeks ago, and it ran
great. NO OIL LEAKS ! ! ! I thought I was home free, and was
daydreaming about actually flying the thing, and wanted to get it in the
air by Nov. 15 - the 10th anniversary of receiving the kit from TOK. I
was really going for it - working on it every day after work.
So, I bolted the prop back on, safety wired it, and lit 'er up. The
engine started to fire, then backfired or kicked back - or both - and
there was a loud bang and a jolt and the engine stopped. Hitting the
starter didn't even wiggle the prop, so I shut everything off and tried
hand propping it. Wouldn't move, so I tore that s.o.b. redrive off -
again - and tore it apart - again. Here's a picture of what I found.
That chain literally exploded. I think that's more than a great plenty.
I've stubbornly worked thru several issues with that thing, and that's
enuf. I don't want to fly in front of it, so it goes in the trash.
From here ?? I dunno yet. I'm researching a couple of other
redrives, but it's too early to say yet. I'll keep ya posted.
Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
10/1/2006
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
certainly not an expert of these re drives but many use cog belts.
Have you given these a thought?
AZ Bald Eagle
George T:
With cog belts one has the same problem. Instead of breaking chains
and tearing up gears, the cogs are ripped off the belt. Most belts
now use Kevlar or something similar. This stuff does not stretch or
slip.
Dan H of my area did a lot of study and experimentation on the 3 cyl
Suzuki on his 3/4 scale Jenny. Even enlisted the help of a Scientist
to help with sensors and computers to try and come up with a cause and
a solution. All this was way over my head, but one thing did get my
attention. One night Dan put a strobe light on the spinning IVO prop
on the little Suzuki. The prop blades looked like snake dancers.
Would never have imagined they would wiggle the way they did with the
engine run up.
Some things work and some don't. Maybe you all can find an answer.
john h
mkIII
Message 13
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Fortunately I had my camera ready this morning as a stranger buzzed my
strip.
a loud boom and he was out of sight.
KolbSoundB
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: exceeding Vne |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Myers" <gmyers@grandecom.net>
That was me... -)
George
-------Original Message-------
>Fortunately I had my camera ready this morning as a stranger buzzed my
>strip.
>a loud boom and he was out of sight.
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
John is correct about the suzuki and its strange harmonics.
Raven, the principal supplier of drives for this engine hasn't had much
problem
with the belt as long as it is tensioned properly, too loose wipes the
cogs off
and too tight overheats and destroys bearings. -Not easy to arrive at
the right tension immediately because the alloy block and head expand
a lot with warmup. When cold the belt looks disturbingly slack.
I have had some recurring difficulty with my main shaft bearings losing
preload torque on the stack, causing the spacer between the bearings
to spin. It performed perfectly all this summer until a week ago with
Thom Riddle and Will U. chasing me with a video cam inspired me to
work it a bit too hard.
-Still investigating and learning.
experimental BB
On 2, Oct 2006, at 2:51 PM, John Hauck wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> certainly not an expert of these re drives but many use cog belts.
> Have you given these a thought?
> AZ Bald Eagle
>
> George T:
>
> With cog belts one has the same problem. Instead of breaking chains
> and tearing up gears, the cogs are ripped off the belt. Most belts
> now use Kevlar or something similar. This stuff does not stretch or
> slip.
>
> Dan H of my area did a lot of study and experimentation on the 3 cyl
> Suzuki on his 3/4 scale Jenny. Even enlisted the help of a Scientist
> to help with sensors and computers to try and come up with a cause and
> a solution. All this was way over my head, but one thing did get my
> attention. One night Dan put a strobe light on the spinning IVO prop
> on the little Suzuki. The prop blades looked like snake dancers.
> Would never have imagined they would wiggle the way they did with the
> engine run up.
>
> Some things work and some don't. Maybe you all can find an answer.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
I have the Valley Redrive on my VW powered MKIIIc. At one point I came very
close to buying the same redrive Lar bought but didn't feel comfortable with
the chain. The Valley redrive uses a coged belt. It works well with wood
props and to a some what lesser degree my three bladed PowerFin. My
understanding is the wood props have very low mass and are very rigid. The
VW engine is a very smooth engine with low compression so it is fairly
forgiving. It does shake on start up and shut down but isn't violent so it
has never presented a problem. I can even idle the engine down to 800 RPM. I
have never had a problem with the belt adjustment after the first hour of
run in. They are adjusted per instructions and stay at that setting. Now
with this said it does vibrate more than it did with direct drive. I have
had cracked exhaust system brackets, Air cleaners, a drive bracket and a few
nuts and bolts work loose. So far I have had one forced landing over the
last 230 hours because I normally find the problem on preflight and so far
have been able to fix the problem. The guys at Valley swear by smoothness of
their drive with wood props and promise that they will have a long term fix
for composite props. They have tried rubber dampers, a modified drive like
they have on their V twin, and a sprag clutch without a satisfactory fix.
They promise to keep trying and have been very helpful with any problems I
have had. They even offered to help with the cost of the my engine when my
drive bracket broke (the over reved engine was my fault).
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert bean" <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
>
> John is correct about the suzuki and its strange harmonics.
> Raven, the principal supplier of drives for this engine hasn't had much
> problem
> with the belt as long as it is tensioned properly, too loose wipes the
> cogs off
> and too tight overheats and destroys bearings. -Not easy to arrive at
> the right tension immediately because the alloy block and head expand
> a lot with warmup. When cold the belt looks disturbingly slack.
> I have had some recurring difficulty with my main shaft bearings losing
> preload torque on the stack, causing the spacer between the bearings
> to spin. It performed perfectly all this summer until a week ago with
> Thom Riddle and Will U. chasing me with a video cam inspired me to
> work it a bit too hard.
> -Still investigating and learning.
> experimental BB
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net>
> The guys at Valley swear by smoothness of
> their drive with wood props and promise that they will have a long term fix
> for composite props. They have tried rubber dampers, a modified drive like
> they have on their V twin, and a sprag clutch without a satisfactory fix.
They're unlikely, except perhaps through luck, to develop a
solution without a thourough survey of vibrational characteristics
of the system as a whole. Not cheap, not easy without extensive
instrumented/strain guaged props and not a few accellerometers.
Dampeners move the problem to a different regime and sprag
clutches are useless above some speed because the system
then acts like a direct coupled unit.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net>
Jim,
In my judgement the best system to deal with the torsional vibration
harmonics problem is to use a fluid coupler such as an automatic
transmission torque converter. The only problem is a HUGH weight
penalty.
On Oct 2, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Jim Baker wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net>
>
>> The guys at Valley swear by smoothness of
>> their drive with wood props and promise that they will have a long
>> term fix
>> for composite props. They have tried rubber dampers, a modified
>> drive like
>> they have on their V twin, and a sprag clutch without a
>> satisfactory fix.
>
> They're unlikely, except perhaps through luck, to develop a
> solution without a thourough survey of vibrational characteristics
> of the system as a whole. Not cheap, not easy without extensive
> instrumented/strain guaged props and not a few accellerometers.
> Dampeners move the problem to a different regime and sprag
> clutches are useless above some speed because the system
> then acts like a direct coupled unit.
>
> Jim Baker
> 580.788.2779
> Elmore City, OK
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: exceeding Vne |
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
Yah, shore............... :-)
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert bean" <slyck@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:56 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: exceeding Vne
> Fortunately I had my camera ready this morning as a stranger buzzed my
> strip.
> a loud boom and he was out of sight.
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> KolbSoundB
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Vamoose' Ex-Reduction Drive |
Thanks all for your thoughts and comments. The drive was made by Aero
Kinetics and was one of only a few built to that configuration - I found
out much later. Later ones were made with a cushioning assembly in the
hub, but after my 1st breakage the mfr informed me that the upgrade
wouldn't fit in my housing, but that the heavier input shaft should hold
the strain. I guess it did. I have no idea if the company is still in
business, and not interested in finding out. One day I'll probably make
a web page detailing what all I found in that thing this summer. Pretty
bad. Several smaller parts broke, and some machine work was incorrect.
There's quite a bit on it, and on the engine, in the "Engine and
ReDrive" section of my website. Click on the link in my signature
below.
The thought about the off road transfer cases has bugged me, too,
because of the strain a small block could put on them in low gear.
Those guys beat 'em up, too. I'm inclined to think it was a freak
breakage, but not so inclined as to want to take another chance with it.
Three times is enuf. The idea about snapping or cracking the whip to
break it probably has a lot going for it. I dunno, but that thing sure
did blow up.
I've had several good conversations with a successful cog belt drive
builder, and it sounds good, but it would be very high (huge prop to
tail boom space) and quite heavy. He's real interested and still
noodling on it. SPG - my 1st choice - doesn't have VW adapters
available, and isn't interested. Marcotte would be far and away the
best, but far too heavy (45 lb) and a real iffy company. A couple
others are interesting, so we'll see. For now, Vamoose goes back
onto the back burner........again. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk III
Vamoose
I mentioned a problem with Vamoose' redrive a bit ago, and have been
asked for more info, so I guess I should share it with all. I'm not
really crazy about this, but.........
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