---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/19/06: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:34 AM - video for steel tube construction (Scott Perkins) 2. 01:46 AM - Re: Dave's accident (Robert Laird) 3. 02:55 AM - Re: Dave's accident (Todd Fredricks) 4. 04:13 AM - Re: FSII Pictures (Richard Pike) 5. 06:07 AM - Re: Re: Patterns (N27SB@aol.com) 6. 06:34 AM - FSII Dihedral (Jack B. Hart) 7. 06:41 AM - Re: FSII Dihedral (David Lehman) 8. 07:47 AM - Re: Straight out Cessna (ElleryWeld@aol.com) 9. 07:54 AM - Re: FSII Dihedral (Bill Vincent) 10. 08:26 AM - Re: Dave's accident (George Thompson) 11. 08:50 AM - Re: Patterns (jimhefner) 12. 09:02 AM - Re: Picture of Homer Kolb (LEE CREECH) 13. 09:02 AM - MkII Twinstar for sale (Charles Blackwell) 14. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Patterns (russ kinne) 15. 09:32 AM - Re: Picture of Homer Kolb (George T. Alexander, Jr.) 16. 09:34 AM - Re: Picture of Homer Kolb (George T. Alexander, Jr.) 17. 09:37 AM - Stories of off-airport landings () 18. 10:03 AM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (R. Hankins) 19. 11:31 AM - Re: Picture of Homer Kolb (John Hauck) 20. 11:31 AM - Re: Re: Patterns (Richard Pike) 21. 11:38 AM - Re: FSII Dihedral (Richard Pike) 22. 11:52 AM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (Bill Vincent) 23. 12:53 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (Bob Noyer) 24. 01:43 PM - English vs. Ahmurican (Thom Riddle) 25. 01:48 PM - Re: Pilot In ChargePilot In Charge (Thom Riddle) 26. 02:33 PM - twinstar structure (Lee/Cannon) 27. 03:00 PM - Re: English vs. Ahmurican (pat ladd) 28. 03:22 PM - Re: FSII Dihedral (planecrazzzy) 29. 03:23 PM - Re: Kolb related: Your location (Jack B. Hart) 30. 03:28 PM - Re: Dave's accident (pat ladd) 31. 04:00 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (Wayne T. McCullough) 32. 04:09 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (Ed Chmielewski) 33. 05:16 PM - Re: twinstar structure (Larry Bourne) 34. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: FSII Dihedral (David Lehman) 35. 05:35 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (Bob Noyer) 36. 05:44 PM - Re: Dave's accident (Larry Bourne) 37. 06:09 PM - Re: twinstar structure (Denny Rowe) 38. 07:55 PM - Re: FSII Dihedral (Vince Nicely) 39. 08:29 PM - Re: Dave's accident (John Hauck) 40. 10:31 PM - Re: Patterns (jimhefner) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:31 AM PST US From: Scott Perkins <2scott@bellsouth.net> Subject: Kolb-List: video for steel tube construction I saw mention elsewhere of this being pretty good http://www.jumprunenterprises.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:09 AM PST US From: "Robert Laird" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave's accident Yes, a MkIII w/ 912S On 11/18/06, John Hauck wrote: > > > | I have always tried hard to fly my UL as if it were an N-numbered > > > Robert: > > Thought you were flying a MKIII? > > john h > mkIII > N101AB > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave's accident From: Todd Fredricks John: In our Class D, traffic permitting I routinely turn crosswind as soon as I have 500 feet AGL and no runway remaining. I do not wait for the departure end. The less turn I have to make in the event of an engine failure the better. PKB has a tower and a crosswind runway and as long as you communicate they let you do pretty much anything within the realm of safety. 21 has a big valley and woods at the end of it so I like to get pointed back toward concrete as soon as possible during repeated patterns and power changes. There is an AIM method of patterns but as I learned long ago about holding patterns, there are really just two practical rules: stay in the protected side of the hold and enter in the most expeditious and practical means possible. All else is mishmash. It will be good, if possible, to determine why Dave's airplane crashed, but one thing I learned from sailplane flying, if it has a wing, it typically wants to fly and if left alone to do its thing properly it usually will. Todd On 11/18/06 2:30 PM, "John Hauck" wrote: > > > > ultralights > > > Thought it was an airstrip for light planes, ultralights, rotorcraft, > flying bed sheets, trikes, and rag bags. > > Rick, you need to explain your statement above. > > Folks, don't forget, many of us fly out of cow pastures, back yards, > deserts, desert roads, gravel bars, hay fields, borrow pits, and > parking lots, etc. > > I fly in and out of my cow pasture in a routine manner. Usually, the > same procedure each time, except when the wind changes my landing > direction. Does it look like a traffic pattern at an airport. > Probably not in the least. I don't know the first thing about the > airstrip AZ Dave was flying out of, other than an abandoned WWII > field. Probably nothing out there but the old strip and desert. > Doubt if many GA aircraft fly in and out of there, but I may be wrong. > AZ George can enlighten us on the airstrip at Paulden. > > Personally, I don't see anything wrong with 100 or 200 ft pattern > altitude at Paulden, if it is not an official FAA recognized airport. > Kolbs are more than happy flying at that altitude as they are at 1,000 > feet. Kolbs don't stall because of insufficient altitude, but > insufficient airspeed. From the few photos I saw of the area, looked > like a lot of flat high desert to me. I could be wrong though. > Plenty places to do an off field landing, if necessary. I believe > Dave did one a year or so ago and busted his mkIII. > > Some of us have flown coast to coast, low level, and I don't mean less > than 10,000 feet. > > When I fly in and out of airports, I fly the traffic pattern, usually > not nearly as big as the GA guys. Why, because I don't need to. Many > times I have landed ahead of GA (150, 152, etc.) aircraft that were > flying B-52 type traffic patterns, even though they entered the > traffic pattern long before I did. At my local airport, 08A, I can > fly 3 or 4 Kolb traffic patterns before a 152 flies a single pattern. > > Its been a while since I went through primary flight training, but if > I remember correctly (and if I don't, John W will certainly correct > me), I can turn cross wind when I clear the departure end of the > runway, turn down wind when I reach traffic pattern altitude, turn > base and start my descent when I am 45 degrees from the approach end > of the runway, and turn final so I'll roll out lined up on the center > line of the runway. Maybe ya'll do it different now. ;-) > > Take care, > > john h > mkIII > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:24 AM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Pictures It flies hands off, you can drive it around with rudder only, and it seems to handle very well. Flown it like that for a year, no negatives. I put my MKIII in the garage yesterday, it is getting longer wing struts and we'll see how it does. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Vincent" Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:45 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Pictures > > Hi Richard > > Thanks for posting the pics...I am amazed at how much dihedral there is on > the wings. > Bill Vincent > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Pike" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:15 PM > Subject: Kolb-List: FSII Pictures > > >> >> Took some pictures of Ed's Firestar II this afternoon, some of them came >> out pretty good. >> After we got back on the ground, took my MKIII apart and put it in the >> garage, time for some winter maintenance, fix that cranky radio that quit >> working, and put some dihedral in the wings. Going to see if the MKIII >> can be made to fly hands off like the FSII does. >> >> Richard Pike >> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75522#75522 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1020312_large_135.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1020310_large_342.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1020276_large_180.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1020256_large_139.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1020214_large_702.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1020206_large_723.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:51 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Patterns To All, Changing from Experimental Land Plane to UL Floatplane has been a lot of fun. Take off and Landing takes on a new perspective. Every approach is different. Most approaches are a 90 to 180 degree steep descending spiral and much like John's Cow Field your landing spot is subject to change second to second. Give it a try sometime Steve FF007 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:33 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral At 07:11 AM 11/19/06 -0500, you wrote: > >It flies hands off, you can drive it around with rudder only, and it seems >to handle very well. Flown it like that for a year, no negatives. I put my >MKIII in the garage yesterday, it is getting longer wing struts and we'll >see how it does. Richard, It seems like it would require additional rudder to side or forward slip. This could be a factor for cross wind landings. Have you noticed any difference? What is the actual dihedral in degrees? Has it influenced roll rate? Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:26 AM PST US From: "David Lehman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral Oops... Aren't Kolbs supposed to have dihedral?... Mine does, although I've never measured how many degrees... DVD do not archive On 11/19/06, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > > At 07:11 AM 11/19/06 -0500, you wrote: > > > >It flies hands off, you can drive it around with rudder only, and it > seems > >to handle very well. Flown it like that for a year, no negatives. I put > my > >MKIII in the garage yesterday, it is getting longer wing struts and we'll > >see how it does. > > Richard, > > It seems like it would require additional rudder to side or forward slip. > This could be a factor for cross wind landings. Have you noticed any > difference? What is the actual dihedral in degrees? Has it influenced > roll rate? > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:19 AM PST US From: ElleryWeld@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Straight out Cessna Hey Russ K if your ever back in the Bangor Maine area again lets hook up I will buy you lunch I am just 11 miles north of Bangor KBGR Ellery do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:09 AM PST US From: "Bill Vincent" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral Hi Gang My FS II flies perfect with just a little bit of dihedral. I used to own a TO-Bird, which had a lot of dihedral, I could fly it "hands off" but I paid for it with a lot of adverse Yaw, meaning if I give it left rudder the nose would go right. Bill Vincent FS II Upper Peninsula of Michigan Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: David Lehman To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral Oops... Aren't Kolbs supposed to have dihedral?... Mine does, although I've never measured how many degrees... DVD do not archive On 11/19/06, Jack B. Hart wrote: jbhart@onlyinternet.net> At 07:11 AM 11/19/06 -0500, you wrote: > >It flies hands off, you can drive it around with rudder only, and it seems >to handle very well. Flown it like that for a year, no negatives. I put my >MKIII in the garage yesterday, it is getting longer wing struts and we'll >see how it does. Richard, It seems like it would require additional rudder to side or forward slip. This could be a factor for cross wind landings. Have you noticed any difference? What is the actual dihedral in degrees? Has it influenced roll rate? Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:40 AM PST US From: "George Thompson" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave's accident I must add to this pattern thread. Our field is an old WW II field. At one time it had a light asphalt covering, but now only a small spot or to is all that is left of the paving. It is dirt and a mile long with no obstructions at either end nor on the sides. We normally make the take off near the middle of the field and usually make our first turn by the time we reach the departcher end.There are homes now starting to be built near the South side, but we have always flown a right hand pattern. There are three homes on the North side, two of them are pilots.There are two GA planes there and Four ultralingt type hangered there. The field is on the charts as "Pilots Rest" and private.It is as John says mostly high desert open country. It is an ideal place to fly because of the weather and an ultrllalight and even a GA plane could make a forced landing anywhere off field. It is seldom used by GA aircraft other than the ones housed there or from the neighboring field to the South. I think that "Big Lar" is the only other Kolber who has visited our field. Jump in her Lar and give your comments. I don't recommend using the pattern that we use here at other fields. Always use the altitude that is recommended for that field.That is what I have always done. We have been comfortable using the 3-500 feet altitude here and will continue to do so. Dave's Wife, Eve requests that in lew of flowers, donations be made to the EAA Young Eagles program in Dave's name. Or send them to her home. Mrs. David Pelletier 1134 Fair St. Prescott. Az.86305 Az Bald Eagle George Thompson .. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave's accident > > > ultralights > > > Thought it was an airstrip for light planes, ultralights, rotorcraft, > flying bed sheets, trikes, and rag bags. > > Rick, you need to explain your statement above. > > Folks, don't forget, many of us fly out of cow pastures, back yards, > deserts, desert roads, gravel bars, hay fields, borrow pits, and > parking lots, etc. > > I fly in and out of my cow pasture in a routine manner. Usually, the > same procedure each time, except when the wind changes my landing > direction. Does it look like a traffic pattern at an airport. > Probably not in the least. I don't know the first thing about the > airstrip AZ Dave was flying out of, other than an abandoned WWII > field. Probably nothing out there but the old strip and desert. > Doubt if many GA aircraft fly in and out of there, but I may be wrong. > AZ George can enlighten us on the airstrip at Paulden. > > Personally, I don't see anything wrong with 100 or 200 ft pattern > altitude at Paulden, if it is not an official FAA recognized airport. > Kolbs are more than happy flying at that altitude as they are at 1,000 > feet. Kolbs don't stall because of insufficient altitude, but > insufficient airspeed. From the few photos I saw of the area, looked > like a lot of flat high desert to me. I could be wrong though. > Plenty places to do an off field landing, if necessary. I believe > Dave did one a year or so ago and busted his mkIII. > > Some of us have flown coast to coast, low level, and I don't mean less > than 10,000 feet. > > When I fly in and out of airports, I fly the traffic pattern, usually > not nearly as big as the GA guys. Why, because I don't need to. Many > times I have landed ahead of GA (150, 152, etc.) aircraft that were > flying B-52 type traffic patterns, even though they entered the > traffic pattern long before I did. At my local airport, 08A, I can > fly 3 or 4 Kolb traffic patterns before a 152 flies a single pattern. > > Its been a while since I went through primary flight training, but if > I remember correctly (and if I don't, John W will certainly correct > me), I can turn cross wind when I clear the departure end of the > runway, turn down wind when I reach traffic pattern altitude, turn > base and start my descent when I am 45 degrees from the approach end > of the runway, and turn final so I'll roll out lined up on the center > line of the runway. Maybe ya'll do it different now. ;-) > > Take care, > > john h > mkIII > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:12 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Patterns From: "jimhefner" My GA CFI is from the old school and wants me to fly 1 mile finals.... with stabilized approach. He also stresses no turns until 500' altitude gain and wants me to be at pattern alt (1000' at 57AZ) by the time I turn downwind if staying in the pattern, so it requires long legs at the climb rate of a 150. I was used to turning base 45o beyond the end of the runway and flying a 500' tight pattern in the Firefly so this has been a big adjustment for me. Sometimes I do the 45o pattern approach for practice (when Bill's not along :) ) and still like that better than the 1 mile final. I find it easier to repeat at unfamiliar airports and causes fewer delays in the pattern than the long approaches. At E77 where I kept the Firefly they also have two different pattern altitudes.... 500' for ultralights and gyrocopters and 1000' for GA. At 57AZ where the 150 is parked, they have left hand traffic at 1000' for GA and right hand traffic at 500' for ultralights.... the only ultralights allowed at this private airport are 3 trikes owned by a wealthy internet software mogul that built a mega house there and has a lot of clout. I heard from a friend at the airport yesterday that this guy's son and instructor were killed recently in NM in a trike accident, but haven't confirmed that. I agree with John Hauck's statement about planes not stalling due to altitude, but rather airspeed. I'll add attitude to that since attitude can change the stall speed dramatically.... therefore only shallow turns on climbout unless you have lots of extra power. 912S's have that but 582's don't on a MK III near gross weight. -------- Jim Hefner Kolbless in Tucson :( Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75611#75611 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:27 AM PST US From: "LEE CREECH" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb Was it actually N-numbered? Looks like "N2H" on the fin, either a three-digit N number or a joke . . . Lee in Ky Firestar II >From: "Bill Vincent" >To: >Subject: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb >Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:45:43 -0600 > >Hi Gang >For the new List members who have not seen this picture, I thought it was >worthy to resend. >The picture is of Homer Kolb with a 1956 design powered by 4 chainsaw >engines, I guess this proves once and for all who the "real father" of >ultralights really is..... >Bill Vincent Firestar II >Upper Peninsula of Michigan > >Do Not Archive > > ><< HOMER_KOLB.jpg >> _________________________________________________________________ Share your latest news with your friends with the Windows Live Spaces friends module. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:27 AM PST US From: Charles Blackwell Subject: Kolb-List: MkII Twinstar for sale Still have my MkII Twinstar with 503 DCDI for sale in NJ. Will give to good home for $8,000. Advertisements on Barnstormers and Aviation Classifieds. Charles Blackwell MkII in NJ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:23 AM PST US From: russ kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Patterns Erik FWIW I've landed on lots of off-airport sites, never had a problem, usually invited in for coffee, a meal, or even overnite. Used to land on the beaches in SC (at low tide!) & have lunch,. But got concerned that some overzealous sort would fly by, radio the CG or FAA that a plane was down & they should come out and rescue me. Seems that everyone wants to be a rescuer, whether needed or not. You should have landowner's permission, but in an emergency anything goes. If you get carb ice you may have to land. Worst case is that they might make you tow it out rather than fly it out. I've oinly heard of this happening at Disney World FL, where a pilot landed at the facility's privately-owned airport. We used to land on an iced-over lake & have breakfast. Complicated question as to who owned the "land". Finally the FAA saw a picture of 7 aircraft, including a light twin, outside the shoreside restaurant! -- they came down with a forceful but unofficial message "CUT IT OUT!!" So we did. Used to be on long XC flites you could land in a pasture, climb the bob-wire fence & have a good lunch in a highway-side restaurant, or even get a can of gas at the station. Probably too many regs now. All in all, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Good luck, do not archive > > You're welcome for the diagram... Of course that's for any > standard airport... I think that UL patter from the other post is > a good example of what we would be expected to do in our planes... > > Those who land at other than a standard airport of course have to > modify the standard pattern to fit terrain and field length and so on. > > Speaking of... I'm curious because this is something that I'm > wanting to learn how to do... when you all do land wherever, such > as a creek bank or sand bar or cow pasture, do you generally know > the owners of the land or know the public places where you won't > bother anyone? > > Every once in a while I see a nice place that I'd like to stop by, > land, and see on the ground but never do because I'd hate to get in > someone's land and have them call the police or something... > > -------- > -Erik Grabowski > Kolb Firestar N197BG > CFI/CFII > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75496#75496 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:39 AM PST US From: "George T. Alexander, Jr." Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb I'm betting it may have been N2HK.... Check faa.gov under aircraft n numbers and there is a de-registered craft with that number and the model name is "Feather". Most recent registration is a MK II Twinstar. DO NOT ARCHIVE George Alexander FS II FL http://gtalexander.home.att.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LEE CREECH Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb Was it actually N-numbered? Looks like "N2H" on the fin, either a three-digit N number or a joke . . . Lee in Ky Firestar II >From: "Bill Vincent" >To: >Subject: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb >Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:45:43 -0600 > >Hi Gang >For the new List members who have not seen this picture, I thought it >was worthy to resend. >The picture is of Homer Kolb with a 1956 design powered by 4 chainsaw >engines, I guess this proves once and for all who the "real father" of >ultralights really is..... >Bill Vincent Firestar II >Upper Peninsula of Michigan > >Do Not Archive > > ><< HOMER_KOLB.jpg >> _________________________________________________________________ Share your latest news with your friends with the Windows Live Spaces friends module. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:30 AM PST US From: "George T. Alexander, Jr." Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb That most recent registration should have been: TWIN STAR MSK-1 Not MK II Twinstar. DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: George T. Alexander, Jr. [mailto:gtalexander@att.net] Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:33 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb I'm betting it may have been N2HK.... Check faa.gov under aircraft n numbers and there is a de-registered craft with that number and the model name is "Feather". Most recent registration is a MK II Twinstar. DO NOT ARCHIVE George Alexander FS II FL http://gtalexander.home.att.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LEE CREECH Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb Was it actually N-numbered? Looks like "N2H" on the fin, either a three-digit N number or a joke . . . Lee in Ky Firestar II >From: "Bill Vincent" >To: >Subject: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb >Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:45:43 -0600 > >Hi Gang >For the new List members who have not seen this picture, I thought it >was worthy to resend. >The picture is of Homer Kolb with a 1956 design powered by 4 chainsaw >engines, I guess this proves once and for all who the "real father" of >ultralights really is..... >Bill Vincent Firestar II >Upper Peninsula of Michigan > >Do Not Archive > > ><< HOMER_KOLB.jpg >> _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:39 AM PST US From: Subject: Kolb-List: Stories of off-airport landings Russ Kinne wrote: >>FWIW I've landed on lots of off-airport sites, never had a problem, >>usually invited in for coffee, a meal, or even overnite. Not to diminish from the sorrow we're all feeling over Az Dave, but I think Russ has broached a wonderful topic, to wit, things experienced after an off-airport landing. I'd like to suggest that this threat NOT be about what happened to the airplane, i.e., you damaged the landing gear or whatever, but be about the EXPERIENCES you had, good or bad. In that vein, I'll start with this one: This was quite a few years ago, while flying from an ultralights-only field in Red Oak, Tx. I was in the air and noticed that a bungee cord used to hold one of the tail-bracing wires safely out of the prop arc had come undone. Now, this was certainly no emergency but I felt more comfortable making a precautionary landing and reattaching it. So I picked a likely looking field that appeared to have been recently mowed or harvested and swooshed in. After landing, I taxied to the end of the field from which I expected to take off, turned into the wind and killed the engine. As I was climbing out, I noticed a pickup truck nosing into the field. Now in my experience this isn't an unusual occurence. It seems that an ultralight landing attracts onlookers in vehicles quite as much as a bloody, multiple car pileup. So anyway, I tossed the chap a casual wave and went about the business of reattaching the offending bungee cord. When I stood up and turned around I found myself looking down the barrel of a gun. Not being an expert on such matters, I can't tell you what type of gun it was, except that it was some kind of rifle and the bore looked like big enough at that moment that I thought I could fly through it! "Uh, what's wrong?" says I. Brilliant, just brilliant. It turns out (surprised?) that he was the owner of the field and he was righteously ticked off! Apparently some time in the not too distant past a glider club had been making free with his field, landing there and then driving vehicles and trailers all over his hay to retrieve them. He had told them in no uncertain terms to clear out and not come back. Since his home was just across the highway from this field, it was unavoidable that he'd seen me land. And, not illogically, he assumed I was part of the glider club. After some very tense moments, I managed to convince him that I wasn't a member of that club and had only chosen his field for a semi-emergency and that if he'd only not shoot me I'd be on my way without any undue harm to his crop. After all, this was a real ultralight (not a Kolb back then, alas) and it didn't weigh much, hardly leaving even any wheel impressions on the stubble. I eventually soothed his ruffled feathers, then soothed my own nerves enough to get airborne and safely home. Who'd have thought you could come so close to getting killed in an ultralight while it was on the ground?! Next story? -Ken Fackler Kolb Mark II / A722KWF Rochester MI ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:59 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Stories of off-airport landings From: "R. Hankins" Last summer I landed in an alfalfa field about 7 miles southeast of Montegue, CA due to high bladder pressure. I took care of the pressure problem and was stretching my legs a little when I saw a vehicle approaching. A weathered older gentleman in a well used brown Ford F-250 pulled up next to me in a swirl of dust. I walked over, shook hands and explained the high pressure situation. He just chuckled and told me he thought I might need some help, so he drove out to see. We talked for a while, and by the time I left his son and a hired hand had shown up. That made three beat up pickup trucks in the field waiting to watch me take off. I've never run into anyone in a bad mood while landing out. I'll keep my fingers crossed. -------- Roger in Oregon 1992 KXP 503 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75633#75633 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:25 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb George A: Thanks for bringing that to our attention. Here is the info on the deregistered Kolb Feather: Deregistered Aircraft 1 of 1 Aircraft Description Serial Number K2 Type Registration Unknown Manufacturer Name KOLB Certificate Issue Date None Model KOLB FEATHER Mode S Code 50307012 Year Manufacturer None Cancel Date / / Reason for Cancellation Unknown Exported To Notice the Serial Number: K2. Must have been the second Kolb aircraft Homer built and flew. Too bad there are no dates on it. Here's the info on the other Kolb: Aircraft Description Serial Number 3-A Type Registration Corporation Manufacturer Name KOLB COMPANY INC Certificate Issue Date 01/28/1984 Model TWIN STAR MSK-1 Status Undel Tri Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating Pending Number Change None Dealer No Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 50307012 MFR Year 1983 Fractional Owner NO This aircraft was built in 1983 and registered in 1984. That is cool. I love Kolb history. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:53 AM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Patterns I think that is called a "Hobbs meter pattern." When I was a controller at Albany, GA, we had an instructor that preferred that sort of pattern, we also had a cropduster school at the field, and the duster instructors took the attitude that if your downwind or base legs got further from the runway than gliding distance, you were an idiot. So occasionally we had things like "Stearman 59Charlie, you're number two following the Skipper." "Roger tower, 59Charlie following the Skipper doing the bomber pattern." "Tower, this is Skipper 8Uniform Sierra, we are flying a normal pattern!" "Tower this is Stearman 59Charlie, tell the Skipper that the bomber base is east of town, and that's where they normally fly that sort of pattern." etc. Since the instructor in the Skipper really was an idiot, we gave the cropduster instructors a fairly free hand to rag him... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: "jimhefner" Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:49 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Patterns > > My GA CFI is from the old school and wants me to fly 1 mile finals.... > with stabilized approach. He also stresses no turns until 500' altitude > gain and wants me to be at pattern alt (1000' at 57AZ) by the time I turn > downwind if staying in the pattern, so it requires long legs at the climb > rate of a 150. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:44 AM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack B. Hart" Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 9:43 AM Subject: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral > Richard, > > It seems like it would require additional rudder to side or forward slip. > This could be a factor for cross wind landings. Have you noticed any > difference? What is the actual dihedral in degrees? Has it influenced > roll rate? > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN Jack, I don't know if it requires any additional rudder to slip because we never flew it without dihedral. So what it does now is what it has always done. But it slips pretty good. Roll rate is great, it improved when we redid the control horn, moved the lower ends of the aileron pushrods inboard and reduced the stick pressure. Vince Nicely had flown his FSII for several years with this same dihedral before we did this FSII, so we just used his numbers. He raised the tips 9.8 inches from flat, the lift struts needed an extra 2.25 inches in length. The actual dihedral in degrees turns out to be about 3.6 degrees. Vince had an occasion to land on grass with an eleven knot direct crosswind and had no problems with the extra dihedral. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:28 AM PST US From: "Bill Vincent" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Stories of off-airport landings Hi Gang A few winters back while landing on a frozen lake in our local area to talk to some ice fishermen; which in the past has always been a fun experience because they are excited to see a plane land and are full of questions about flying in the winter; however this time a ice fisherman walked up to me and was very unhappy. He stated it was very dangerous for me to be landing around other people, I informed him (nicely) that my plane only weighed 270 pounds and that I was only landing at 40 miles an hour, and that the snowmobile that just passed us was going 100 miles an hour and how much did the snowmobile weigh?? He looked at me, went into his ice shack and slammed the door shut,,,,never had another bad experience like this one again. Bill Vincent Firestar II Upper Peninsula of Michigan DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:29 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stories of off-airport landings (way) Out landings...Not far from here there is a great 5000' hard rnwy on private property...billionaire owner. Has RESTRICTED painted lengthwise on rnwy. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is to use it, except The Large Cheese. Not too far away there are a couple of sailplane fields, and some have force-landed there, much to their sorrow. However they do come apart easily. Some years back, a student in a 150 , lost, abt outa gas, flopped down. Met with armed guards. Plane was dismantled, rather than just flown out. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:09 PM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Kolb-List: English vs. Ahmurican Hello Pat, My son-in-law (from Carlisle), occasionally reminds me of the mother tongue's spelling and pronunciation variances with the Ahmurican version of the de facto world language. Some say music is the common language of the world but perhaps enthusiasm for thing that fly might qualify as the great uniter. Your humble servant, Thom in Buffalo ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:36 PM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Pilot In ChargePilot In Charge Will, I am very glad you lived to tell us this story of your Uncle's freezing the controls for you. It could very well have turned out far worse. I think the FAA passenger notification requirement should include "Don't touch the controls unless I'm dead. After that you can do whatever you want with them." Thom in Buffalo ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:03 PM PST US From: "Lee/Cannon" Subject: Kolb-List: twinstar structure Hello Kolb folks - My name is Rob Cannon, and I recently purchased a Twinstar 532 in Vancouver B.C. Canada. I understand the structure is similar to the firestar II, and I am considering installing the hks 60 hp. Any comments ?? thanks, Rob ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:49 PM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: English vs. Ahmurican enthusiasm for thing that fly might qualify as the great uniter.>> You could be right Thom. I collect signed aviation prints and went to a recent `signing` and there were the old boys, German and English who fought each other in their Spits and Hurricanes against the Me 109 and Fw 190`s all chatting away and getting along famously. Last weekend there was a seminar at one of our Universities where the Argentinians who invaded the Falklands and the Brits who took it back met up for the weekend. All buddies. Carlisle???? they speak worse English up there than you do.... Heh! Heh! Cheers Pat :-) ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:13 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Dihedral From: "planecrazzzy" Hi Dave, They say that there's No Dihedral in the wing....But in the builders manual it sez how to go about setting the wings and measuring the lift strut length....and it sez you'll get an inch or so of Dihedral.... "I" snuck just a little more....and I've seen others that took "ALOT" more. My next plane ( Tailwind ) has no dihedral either.... I wonder if I'll sneak a little in there.... I don't know yet.... .. .. . Gotta Fly... Mike & "Jaz" in MN .. .. .. [quote="David.Lehman"]Oops... Aren't Kolbs supposed to have dihedral?... Mine does, although I've never measured how many degrees... DVD do not archive On 11/19/06, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > At 07:11 AM 11/19/06 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > It flies hands off, you can drive it around with rudder only, and it seems > > to handle very well. Flown it like that for a year, no negatives. I put my > > MKIII in the garage yesterday, it is getting longer wing struts and we'll > > see how it does. > > > > > > Richard, > > It seems like it would require additional rudder to side or forward slip. > This could be a factor for cross wind landings. Have you noticed any > difference? What is the actual dihedral in degrees? Has it influenced > roll rate? > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > > > [b] -------- .. .. .. .. .. Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75700#75700 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:20 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb related: Your location >Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 16:07:32 -0500 >To: >From: "Jack B. Hart" >Subject: Re: Kolb related: Your location > >At 12:09 PM 11/19/06 -0500, you wrote: >> Hey, Jack! I'll be spending the >>Thanksgiving holiday with some friends >>in Brazil IN. Are you anywhere near >>there? >>-Ken Fackler >>Kolb Mark II / A722KWF >>Rochester MI > >Ken, > >You fly 124 miles east on 248 true. > >Have a good Thanksgiving. > >Jack B. Hart FF004 >Winchester, IN Ken, My email bounced due to your spam checker. do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:27 PM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave's accident What does a "happenstance" look like?>> John, I think Russ Kines description will do just fine. I remember getting cursed when flying my glider out of Compton Abbas, a local hill top field. A road runs alongside the field which is bordered by quite a large wood. Because of the wood and the curve of the hill top the field is invisible from the South. I had only flown from the field a couple of times and on this occasion I had taken my first airotow launch. In error a short rope was used and the tug and I left the ground and flew through the curl over from the valley leaving me facing one way and the tug, at a different height, facing the other. In fact the tug pilot said later that he almost pulled the plug on me. Returning to the field I suddenly discovered that it was invisible. I could see the road and the local towns and village and was certain of my position but the field was gone. Height was slipping away as I just flew blind at minimum sink rate towards where the field MUST be. I just about cleared the wood and with great relief actually saw the field. Unfortunately I was 90 degrees to the strip, about halfway along its length and only about 50ft up.The strip was too narrow to land across so I stuck the the nose down to get a bit of speed, stuffed the port wing over as steeply as I could and applied a bootful of left rudder.Centralised everything and bum;ped to a halt. As I gathered myself together there was the pounding of feet and the extremely irate owner of the field was glaring into the cockpit. shaking with rage " Pat, If thats the *******way they taught you to ******* fly at ******Keevil you can get yourself and your *****glider off my *****field and never *****well come back" Luckily I knew him well and bought him a beer later and all was well, But there was no doubt that I fully deserved the telling off. Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:03 PM PST US From: "Wayne T. McCullough" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stories of off-airport landings Good grief Bob, Where is that runway at so we can all avoid it like the plague it is? WT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Noyer" Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:52 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stories of off-airport landings > > (way) Out landings...Not far from here there is a great 5000' hard > rnwy on private property...billionaire owner. Has RESTRICTED painted > lengthwise on rnwy. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is to use it, except The Large > Cheese. Not too far away there are a couple of sailplane fields, and > some have force-landed there, much to their sorrow. However they do > come apart easily. Some years back, a student in a 150 , lost, abt > outa gas, flopped down. Met with armed guards. Plane was dismantled, > rather than just flown out. > regards, > Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb > http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ > > do not archive > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:50 PM PST US From: "Ed Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stories of off-airport landings Hi Bob, Yeah, where izzit? Never know when one might get "carb ice". Ed in JXN MkII/503 Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne T. McCullough" Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:59 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stories of off-airport landings > > > Good grief Bob, > > > Where is that runway at so we can all avoid it like the plague it is? > > > WT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Noyer" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:52 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stories of off-airport landings > > >> >> (way) Out landings...Not far from here there is a great 5000' hard rnwy >> on private property...billionaire owner. Has RESTRICTED painted >> lengthwise on rnwy. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:51 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: twinstar structure Can't say much about the structure, but if'n you're from Vancouver you can't be all bad. That's my home town. :-) Welcome aboard. Lar. Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Lee/Cannon To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: Kolb-List: twinstar structure Hello Kolb folks - My name is Rob Cannon, and I recently purchased a Twinstar 532 in Vancouver B.C. Canada. I understand the structure is similar to the firestar II, and I am considering installing the hks 60 hp. Any comments ?? thanks, Rob ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:19 PM PST US From: "David Lehman" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Dihedral Hi Mike... Mine's not real noticable, in fact, I didn't realize it was there until I tried to install a "connecting" tube between the two leading edge tubes and found that the tubes pointed down... DVD do not archive On 11/19/06, planecrazzzy wrote: > > > Hi Dave, > They say that there's No Dihedral in the wing....But in the > builders manual it sez how to go about setting the wings and measuring the > lift strut length....and it sez you'll get an inch or so of Dihedral.... > > "I" snuck just a little more....and I've seen others that took "ALOT" > more. > > > My next plane ( Tailwind ) has no dihedral either.... I wonder if I'll > sneak a little in there.... I don't know yet.... > . > . > . > Gotta Fly... > Mike & "Jaz" in MN > . > . > . > > > [quote="David.Lehman"]Oops... Aren't Kolbs supposed to have > dihedral?... Mine does, although I've never measured how many degrees... > > DVD > > do not archive > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:36 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stories of off-airport landings About halfway between KOKV Winchester VA and KIAD Dullass VA the Mellon estate. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:52 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave's accident I'm amazed that I'm the only one who's stopped there, George. My memory of your private strip is mostly of wide open spaces, a huge airstrip, taxiways everywhere, widely spaced houses, mostly owned by pilots with planes of several types in their driveways, and an easy going, pleasant attitude from everybody I met. I really liked it, really enjoyed myself, and wouldn't mind living there myself. I even enjoyed being scrunched into the backseat (??) of your FS II, cramps and all. :-) We certainly did fly low & slow, and saw antelope, deer and coyotes. The antelope almost outran the airplane. To show I wasn't too scared off, I even scrunched into the back seat of Larry Cottrell's FS II at the Alvord a couple of years ago. Larry's a little (??) bigger than you, my chest was the support for his seat back, and my knees were his elbow rests. I think so, anyway - I was pretty numb. When I took a deep breath, Larry's forehead hit the windshield. I could actually move my hands and head - a bit. I could tell you much about groaning with a non-resolvable cramp, but I enjoyed that ride, too. I've flown out of several strips that had dual patterns, since I've flown both ultralights and GA airplanes - mostly GA, but enuf UL's to give me a perspective of their different requirements. With the situation at your place, I don't see any problem with either or both patterns, assuming people watch and listen. Dave's turning crosswind at 300 ft or so doesn't strike me as a bad thing at all, given the situation there. A stall/spin from close to 1,000 ft probably won't be resolved in time, either. I've done quite a few spins (intentional) with instructors in Port Angeles, WA, and seems to me that it took 1000 to 1200 ft or so to straighten out the plane. My 1st spin - on my 1st solo flight in a Cessna 172 - was totally un-intentional, is a long story, and took well over 2,000 ft to resolve, but that was my fault, as was the spin. Once again, lack of airspeed causes stalls and spins, not altitude. We could speculate forever, and point fingers back & forth, and never know for sure what really happened that day, tho' it's purely guaranteed that it was a crying shame. Dave will be missed. Lar. Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Thompson" Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave's accident > > I must add to this pattern thread. Our field is an old WW II field. At one > time it had a light asphalt covering, but now only a small spot or to is > all that is left of the paving. It is dirt and a mile long with no > obstructions at either end nor on the sides. We normally make the take off > near the middle of the field and usually make our first turn by the time > we reach the departcher end.There are homes now starting to be built near > the South side, but we have always flown a right hand pattern. There are > three homes on the North side, two of them are pilots.There are two GA > planes there and Four ultralingt type hangered there. The field is on the > charts as "Pilots Rest" and private.It is as John says mostly high desert > open country. It is an ideal place to fly because of the weather and an > ultrllalight and even a GA plane could make a forced landing anywhere off > field. It is seldom used by GA aircraft other than the ones housed there > or from the neighboring field to the South. > I think that "Big Lar" is the only other Kolber who has visited our field. > Jump in her Lar and give your comments. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:52 PM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: twinstar structure Rob, Welcome to the list. The HKS will most likely be an excellent choice for your Twinstar. We currently have a list member installing an HKS on his Firestar II and I am sure he and the HKS dealer assisting him will be very helpful to you. I imagine he will be replying to you shortly, sorry his name escapes me right now. :-( Denny Rowe, Mk-3, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: Lee/Cannon To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:32 PM Subject: Kolb-List: twinstar structure Hello Kolb folks - My name is Rob Cannon, and I recently purchased a Twinstar 532 in Vancouver B.C. Canada. I understand the structure is similar to the firestar II, and I am considering installing the hks 60 hp. Any comments ?? thanks, Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 11/10/2006 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:57 PM PST US From: Vince Nicely Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral Previous message: >> It seems like it would require additional rudder to side or forward >> slip. >> This could be a factor for cross wind landings. Have you noticed any >> difference? What is the actual dihedral in degrees? Has it influenced >> roll rate? >> >> Jack B. Hart FF004 >> Winchester, IN > I wrote a couple of notes about the flight characteristics with increased dihedral. The notes are partially copied below from the archive for those who might be interested. Vince Nicely Firestar II do not archive Part of Note 1 - Aug 98 *My Firestar II is mostly a rudder airplane, but it was not always that way. Let me explain. When first setup as nearly as I could follow the Kolb builders manual, my airplane gave an unusual rudder response compared to my GA experience. Specifically, on application of rudder, it would slow, pitch nose up and eventually could ususally be made to stall if rudder was held full over. Furthermore, if the airplane was in a bit of a bank, the rudder alone would not lift the wing or cause the airplane to unbank, but caused the other responses noted above. I decided to add more dihedral because that seemed like it had a chance to make the responses more conventional compared to GA planes which I wanted. Three degrees (3.6 degrees actually, VAN 11/06) of dihedral makes my Firestar II able to fly all day without touching the stick. Slight rudder inputs provide all the roll control that is needed. It can be brought out of a fairly steep (say 20-30 degree) bank with rudder alone. It has just about neutral spiral stability, i.e., when put in a bank it will approximately hold or slightly lower the bank angle without control inputs. When my plane is stalled, the rudder is very effective at lifting a wing (or in the other direction for putting it into a spin). I have not tried the ailerons near stall, so can't comment until I fly it again. However, I might not want to start using the ailerons because if it became a habit I think that can complicate the stall situation in many GA aircraft which I fly some times. Also, I understand that in some aerobatic aircraft, at least, flat or knife-edge spins are initiated by how the ailerons are held at spin entry. At any rate, it would appear from my experience the details of setup can make some difference in how they fly. Vince* Note 2 in Answer to Some Questions - *>Vince: Very interesting. I only have experience with wings rigged to >Homer's standards. By increasing dihedral, have you decreased performance? > How much increase in inches to get 3 degree increase in dihedral measured >at the outboard rib? > >john h A very reasonable question. Sorry I didn't think to include that information the first time. I raised the outer tip of the wing 10" above the inboard edge. This turns out to be about 3.5 degrees I think. By the way, on my Firestar II that means the lift struts needed to be 2-1/4" longer than the standard setup. Because my plane is folded in storage, I can't easily measure at the outboard rib at this time, but it will be about 9" or a little more. You are right that I have given up a little performance. At the time, I made some estimates and as I recall it was a trivial amount. The amount of dihedral was not optimized, either. Because I had to purchase parts to make the new lift struts, I made them at the longest I could imagine would be needed so they could be shortened if needed. I liked the way it flew with the 2-1/4" longer strut and did not experiment further. As you can imagine, the wings are noticeably canted up. Some have wondered if this is a problem in a cross wind with getting the wind under the wing and raising it. I have set the plane sidewise to an 11 knot wind on an airport ramp to see what happens. Then by trying to lift the up-wind and down-wind wing tip, I decided the wind at 11 knots puts little lift on the up-sloped wing. Regards, Vince* ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:58 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave's accident A stall/spin from | close to 1,000 ft probably won't be resolved in time, either. I've done | quite a few spins (intentional) with instructors in Port Angeles, WA, and | seems to me that it took 1000 to 1200 ft or so to straighten out the plane. Lar. Larry: Recovery from a stall/spin/tail slide or whatever, can easily be recovered from at 1,000 AGL. My fat mkIII will spin half turn and recover in about 300 feet. Of course, it has to be persuaded to spin. Entering stalls is easy, spins are more difficult in Kolbs. However, folks still get in to them. john h mkIII PS: My original FS would fly out of a spin with the controls locked, full aft stick, and full left or right rudder, in half turn. Could not make it spin a full turn with the engine idling. Dead stick was another situation. It would spin up like a top. I think that is a good example of how much drag there is on a windmilling prop. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:44 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Patterns From: "jimhefner" Richard, personally I think the cropduster instructors are right about patterns. My CFI might be thinking I will go on to get instrument rated where these long approaches are normal.... I have no such desires. What will be interesting to understand is what the Practical test examiner will be expecting to see (or not wanting to see...). They do want to see stabilized approaches, but I don't think they need to be 1 mile to demonstrate that. Once I tell him my CFI's name, I'm sure he will understand. Just before my solo I went up with a different CFI and he taught different technique on several points, including patterns, but he also knew what my CFI wants to see. Once I get my private ticket I'll do a few things different than what I'm being taught. Tighter patterns will be one. -------- Jim Hefner Kolbless in Tucson :( Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75767#75767 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.