Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:10 AM - Why? [Please Read] (Matt Dralle)
1. 01:16 AM - Re: FSII Dihedral (Dave Bigelow)
2. 05:27 AM - Re: English vs. Ahmurican (Thom Riddle)
3. 05:58 AM - Re: Dave's accident (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
4. 07:53 AM - Re: FSII Dihedral (Lee/Cannon)
5. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: FSII Dihedral (Jack B. Hart)
6. 03:41 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (WillUribe@aol.com)
7. 04:10 PM - N2H (Larry Rice)
8. 04:32 PM - Re: N2H ()
9. 04:37 PM - Re: Picture of Homer Kolb (Dennis Souder)
10. 04:53 PM - Re: N2H (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
11. 06:37 PM - Re: FSII Dihedral (Dave Bigelow)
12. 07:44 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (John Williamson)
13. 10:00 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (John Hauck)
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| Subject: | Why? [Please Read] |
Dear Listers,
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Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Dihedral |
The FS II rigged with only a few inches of dihedral from the plans has spiral instability.
If you let go of the stick and get bumped into a little bit of bank,
the bank will continue to increase until you provide a correction. Some people
confuse this with roll responsiveness, since it takes very little stick
input to start a roll, however it takes a lot more input to stop or reverse the
roll. An aircraft with spiral instability that has powerful ailerons is not
unsafe, but does require a constant hand on the stick to keep the wings level.
It's kind of like driving an automobile that does not have the front wheel
camber, caster, and toe in set correctly.
I added dihedral to my FS II until I could fly it hands off, and if rudder was
held in either direction, the aircraft would gradually start a bank in that direction.
It makes for a much more pleasant flying aircraft, and I notice no appreciable
difference in performance. If you add too much dihedral, it can reduce
the roll rate. Here's how it goes:
1. Add dihedral - more roll stability; more adverse yaw when moving the ailerons;
more yaw/roll coupling when you move the rudder.
2. Remove dihedral - less roll stability; less adverse yaw when moving the airlerons;
less yaw/roll coupling when moving the rudder.
Too much one way, and the aircraft gets twitchy and harder to fly. Too much the
other way, and it becomes a truck. Look for the sweet spot in the middle somewhere.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75835#75835
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: English vs. Ahmurican |
Pat,
Flying has always been a uniter in my experience. In large social gatherings, if
there are two aviation junkies present, somehow they will find each other and
become fast friends on that basis alone, when otherwise they might not give
each other the time of day. I don't even fly a Kolb anymore but you guys don't
seem to mind that I play in the Kolb sand-box
I think maybe my Scots/English son-in-law having such a northern pronunciation
and upbringing (with an Irish mother thrown in for good measure) may have been
a factor in his decision to study French, in which he got his Phd. here in Ahmurica
at the Univershity of Georgia (pronounced Jawja by the locals). He teaches
Franch at a college here in Buffalo. But to his credit, he does like to fly
and does so with me when he has the time.
The Univershity of Georgia and Georgia Tech (my alma mater and UGA's perennial
rival) will be having their annual football competition this week. Aviation is
the great uniter and football (round or ovalesque) is the great divider.
Thom
do not archive
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75851#75851
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Dave's accident |
John Hauck wrote:
> PS: My original FS would fly out of a spin with the controls locked,
> full aft stick, and full left or right rudder, in half turn. Could
> not make it spin a full turn with the engine idling. Dead stick was
> another situation. It would spin up like a top. I think that is a
> good example of how much drag there is on a windmilling prop.
Probably not as much the drag of the prop, but the gyro effect??
~ Earl
Do Not Archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Dihedral |
I recently purchased a Twinstar which the builder added dihedral to.(
about the same as the subject FS II) He also added a full wrap aluminum
leading edge skin. I called Homer Kolb and asked his opinion on these
changes and he didn't seem too alarmed. I believe he said something like, "
Maybee he planned on doing some cross country flying" (referring to the
builder). If you look at many planes from the past ( champ, cub, t craft,
beaver ) they have a bunch of built in dihedral - it's a good thing .
Actually, when I first looked at Kolbs I was surprized that there was no
dihedral - I still don't really get it? Why don't Kolbs have dihedral?
cheers, Rob Cannon, Saltspring Island, B.C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Nicely" <vincenic1@earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral
>
>
> Previous message:
>
>>> It seems like it would require additional rudder to side or forward
>>> slip.
>>> This could be a factor for cross wind landings. Have you noticed any
>>> difference? What is the actual dihedral in degrees? Has it influenced
>>> roll rate?
>>>
>>> Jack B. Hart FF004
>>> Winchester, IN
>>
> I wrote a couple of notes about the flight characteristics with increased
> dihedral. The notes are partially copied below from the archive for those
> who might be interested.
>
> Vince Nicely
> Firestar II
>
> do not archive
>
> Part of Note 1 - Aug 98
>
> *My Firestar II is mostly a rudder airplane, but it was not always that
> way.
> Let me explain. When first setup as nearly as I could follow the Kolb
> builders manual, my airplane gave an unusual rudder response compared to
> my
> GA experience. Specifically, on application of rudder, it would slow,
> pitch
> nose up and eventually could ususally be made to stall if rudder was held
> full over. Furthermore, if the airplane was in a bit of a bank, the
> rudder
> alone would not lift the wing or cause the airplane to unbank, but caused
> the other responses noted above.
>
> I decided to add more dihedral because that seemed like it had a chance to
> make the responses more conventional compared to GA planes which I wanted.
> Three degrees (3.6 degrees actually, VAN 11/06) of dihedral makes my
> Firestar II able to fly all day without
> touching the stick. Slight rudder inputs provide all the roll control
> that
> is needed. It can be brought out of a fairly steep (say 20-30 degree)
> bank
> with rudder alone. It has just about neutral spiral stability, i.e., when
> put in a bank it will approximately hold or slightly lower the bank angle
> without control inputs.
>
> When my plane is stalled, the rudder is very effective at lifting a wing
> (or
> in the other direction for putting it into a spin). I have not tried the
> ailerons near stall, so can't comment until I fly it again. However, I
> might not want to start using the ailerons because if it became a habit I
> think that can complicate
> the stall situation in many GA aircraft which I fly some times. Also, I
> understand that in some aerobatic aircraft, at least, flat or knife-edge
> spins are initiated by how the ailerons are held at spin entry.
>
> At any rate, it would appear from my experience the details of setup can
> make some difference in how they fly.
>
> Vince*
>
> Note 2 in Answer to Some Questions -
>
> *>Vince: Very interesting. I only have experience with wings rigged to
>>Homer's standards. By increasing dihedral, have you decreased
>>performance?
>> How much increase in inches to get 3 degree increase in dihedral measured
>>at the outboard rib?
>>
>>john h
> A very reasonable question. Sorry I didn't think to include that
> information
> the first time.
>
> I raised the outer tip of the wing 10" above the inboard edge. This turns
> out to be about 3.5 degrees I think. By the way, on my Firestar II that
> means the lift struts needed to be 2-1/4" longer than the standard setup.
> Because my plane is folded in storage, I can't easily measure at the
> outboard rib at this time, but it will be about 9" or a little more.
>
> You are right that I have given up a little performance. At the time, I
> made some estimates and as I recall it was a trivial amount. The amount
> of
> dihedral was not optimized, either. Because I had to purchase parts to
> make
> the new lift struts, I made them at the longest I could imagine would be
> needed so they could be shortened if needed. I liked the way it flew with
> the 2-1/4" longer strut and did not experiment further.
>
> As you can imagine, the wings are noticeably canted up. Some have
> wondered
> if this is a problem in a cross wind with getting the wind under the wing
> and raising it. I have set the plane sidewise to an 11 knot wind on an
> airport ramp to see what happens. Then by trying to lift the up-wind and
> down-wind wing tip, I decided the wind at 11 knots puts little lift on the
> up-sloped wing.
>
> Regards,
> Vince*
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Dihedral |
At 01:15 AM 11/20/06 -0800, you wrote:
>
>1. Add dihedral - more roll stability; more adverse yaw when moving the ailerons;
more yaw/roll coupling when you move the rudder.
>
>2. Remove dihedral - less roll stability; less adverse yaw when moving the airlerons;
less yaw/roll coupling when moving the rudder.
>
>Too much one way, and the aircraft gets twitchy and harder to fly. Too much the
other way, and it becomes a truck. Look for the sweet spot in the middle somewhere.
>
Dave,
My FireFly was the twitchy truck variety with the Kolb plan specified
dihedral. The reason it was a truck was because cause of excessive aileron
chord that lead to high control forces in roll. One could not displace
the ailerons at cruise. This doomed one to kicking rudders to keep the
wings level. By changing the wing chord from fifteen inches to nine inches
and changing the crank to push rod leverage points the truck became a
twitchy sports car.
Removing all slack from the aileron control system and adding VG's the
twitchiness has disappeared. If one lets go of the stick it will slowly
roll off to one side. Stick pressure required to keep the wings level in
rough air is very light. It is nimble and quick and goes where it supposed
to. And best of all, I can fly it an hour in the middle of the day and have
enough energy left to get right back in it and do it again.
Adding dihedral to compensate for aileron high dynamic loading will make the
aircraft more stable in roll. But it will require more pilot effort to fly
in the middle of the day or cross country than a plane with reasonable sized
ailerons.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Stories of off-airport landings |
Message 7
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Remember that in 1956 there was no such thing as an ultralight in the regs.
Larry the micromong guy
--
Message 8
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A flying buddy sent me the picture below alleging it is a Kolb. But I'm
not so sure.
What do ya'll think? Kolb or Fergie or something else? She's sure a
pretty one either way.
-Ken
Message 9
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| Subject: | Picture of Homer Kolb |
Early N numbers for experimentals started out low and the early birds got
the worms. The early guys got the low numbers and these became prestigious
and sought after. As I recall Homer sold one of his early N numbers for
$1,000. This was back when $1,000 was worth something.
That's how I recall it.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LEE CREECH
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:02 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb
Was it actually N-numbered? Looks like "N2H" on the fin, either a
three-digit N number or a joke . . .
Lee in Ky
Firestar II
>From: "Bill Vincent" <emailbill@chartermi.net>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb
>Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:45:43 -0600
>
>Hi Gang
>For the new List members who have not seen this picture, I thought it was
>worthy to resend.
>The picture is of Homer Kolb with a 1956 design powered by 4 chainsaw
>engines, I guess this proves once and for all who the "real father" of
>ultralights really is.....
>Bill Vincent Firestar II
>Upper Peninsula of Michigan
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>
><< HOMER_KOLB.jpg >>
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 10
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kfackler@ameritech.net wrote:
> A flying buddy sent me the picture below alleging it is a Kolb. But I'm
> not so sure.
>
> What do ya'll think? Kolb or Fergie or something else? She's sure a
> pretty one either way.
>
> -Ken
Looks like a Firestar II
~ Earl
Do Not Archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: FSII Dihedral |
Jack,
The heavy aileron control force problem you describe with the Firefly has little
to do with dihedral. The Firestar has responsive and easy to move ailerons.
Adding some dihedral adds little extra control force unless you go to extremes.
Almost any aircraft will slowly start a roll to one side or other if you stay off
the controls long enough. If it has spiral instability, it will continue to
roll off to a high angle of bank. If it has the proper amount of spiral stability,
the bank will stabilize at 20 - 30 degrees.
Don't confuse light control forces with stability - not the same thing.
--------
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75997#75997
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Stories of off-airport landings |
It's only illegal if you get caught!
--------
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Stories of off-airport landings |
Dire need for pit stop. Nearest airport 30 miles north of course. Could not make
it to the next airport on course. Decided to land in a dry creek bed in the
desert on the California/Nevada border east of LA. Good landing, but dry creek
bed was very deep sand. As a precaution, dug out in front of each main tire
to help get the aircraft moving initially. Got out ok. Unique experience
a long way from anywhere.
--------
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler, alabama
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