---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/20/06: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:10 AM - Why? [Please Read] (Matt Dralle) 1. 01:16 AM - Re: FSII Dihedral (Dave Bigelow) 2. 05:27 AM - Re: English vs. Ahmurican (Thom Riddle) 3. 05:58 AM - Re: Dave's accident (Earl & Mim Zimmerman) 4. 07:53 AM - Re: FSII Dihedral (Lee/Cannon) 5. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: FSII Dihedral (Jack B. Hart) 6. 03:41 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (WillUribe@aol.com) 7. 04:10 PM - N2H (Larry Rice) 8. 04:32 PM - Re: N2H () 9. 04:37 PM - Re: Picture of Homer Kolb (Dennis Souder) 10. 04:53 PM - Re: N2H (Earl & Mim Zimmerman) 11. 06:37 PM - Re: FSII Dihedral (Dave Bigelow) 12. 07:44 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (John Williamson) 13. 10:00 PM - Re: Stories of off-airport landings (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:43 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: Why? [Please Read] Dear Listers, Each year I like to explain why I have a Fund Raiser and also take the opportunity to express why I think the List Services here provide a superior experience over the commercial equivalents. I use the List Fund Raiser each year to offset the costs involved with running a high performance email list site such as this one. With the annual support from the List members through the PBS-like Fund Raiser, I have found I can run the entire site without having to inflect any of the members with those annoying banner ads flashing up all the time trying to sell little-blue-pills or other garbage nobody wants or needs. From the comments I've received over the years regarding the Lists, the great majority of the members really appreciate the non-commercialism of my List systems and don't mind my 'go-team-go' banter once a year during November to encourage members to support the Lists. I believe that the Lists services that I provide here offer many benefits over the commercial equivalents in a number of ways. The first feature I believe to be significant is that you cannot receive a computer v*rus from any of these Lists directly. Each incoming message is filtered and dangerous attachments stripped off prior to posting. 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I have to admit running these Lists is a labor of love and I hope it shows in the quality of the experience that you receive when you get a List Email Message, Search the Archives, use the List Browser, or surf the Forums and Wiki sites. The Lists will be here for a long time to come. If you just want to lurk a while for free, that's great and I encourage you to do so. If you use, appreciate, and receive value from these Lists, then please support them during the Annual List Fund Raiser! List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:04 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Dihedral From: "Dave Bigelow" The FS II rigged with only a few inches of dihedral from the plans has spiral instability. If you let go of the stick and get bumped into a little bit of bank, the bank will continue to increase until you provide a correction. Some people confuse this with roll responsiveness, since it takes very little stick input to start a roll, however it takes a lot more input to stop or reverse the roll. An aircraft with spiral instability that has powerful ailerons is not unsafe, but does require a constant hand on the stick to keep the wings level. It's kind of like driving an automobile that does not have the front wheel camber, caster, and toe in set correctly. I added dihedral to my FS II until I could fly it hands off, and if rudder was held in either direction, the aircraft would gradually start a bank in that direction. It makes for a much more pleasant flying aircraft, and I notice no appreciable difference in performance. If you add too much dihedral, it can reduce the roll rate. Here's how it goes: 1. Add dihedral - more roll stability; more adverse yaw when moving the ailerons; more yaw/roll coupling when you move the rudder. 2. Remove dihedral - less roll stability; less adverse yaw when moving the airlerons; less yaw/roll coupling when moving the rudder. Too much one way, and the aircraft gets twitchy and harder to fly. Too much the other way, and it becomes a truck. Look for the sweet spot in the middle somewhere. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75835#75835 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:42 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: English vs. Ahmurican From: "Thom Riddle" Pat, Flying has always been a uniter in my experience. In large social gatherings, if there are two aviation junkies present, somehow they will find each other and become fast friends on that basis alone, when otherwise they might not give each other the time of day. I don't even fly a Kolb anymore but you guys don't seem to mind that I play in the Kolb sand-box I think maybe my Scots/English son-in-law having such a northern pronunciation and upbringing (with an Irish mother thrown in for good measure) may have been a factor in his decision to study French, in which he got his Phd. here in Ahmurica at the Univershity of Georgia (pronounced Jawja by the locals). He teaches Franch at a college here in Buffalo. But to his credit, he does like to fly and does so with me when he has the time. The Univershity of Georgia and Georgia Tech (my alma mater and UGA's perennial rival) will be having their annual football competition this week. Aviation is the great uniter and football (round or ovalesque) is the great divider. Thom do not archive -------- Thom in Buffalo Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75851#75851 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:57 AM PST US From: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave's accident John Hauck wrote: > PS: My original FS would fly out of a spin with the controls locked, > full aft stick, and full left or right rudder, in half turn. Could > not make it spin a full turn with the engine idling. Dead stick was > another situation. It would spin up like a top. I think that is a > good example of how much drag there is on a windmilling prop. Probably not as much the drag of the prop, but the gyro effect?? ~ Earl Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:48 AM PST US From: "Lee/Cannon" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral I recently purchased a Twinstar which the builder added dihedral to.( about the same as the subject FS II) He also added a full wrap aluminum leading edge skin. I called Homer Kolb and asked his opinion on these changes and he didn't seem too alarmed. I believe he said something like, " Maybee he planned on doing some cross country flying" (referring to the builder). If you look at many planes from the past ( champ, cub, t craft, beaver ) they have a bunch of built in dihedral - it's a good thing . Actually, when I first looked at Kolbs I was surprized that there was no dihedral - I still don't really get it? Why don't Kolbs have dihedral? cheers, Rob Cannon, Saltspring Island, B.C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vince Nicely" Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 7:55 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FSII Dihedral > > > Previous message: > >>> It seems like it would require additional rudder to side or forward >>> slip. >>> This could be a factor for cross wind landings. Have you noticed any >>> difference? What is the actual dihedral in degrees? Has it influenced >>> roll rate? >>> >>> Jack B. Hart FF004 >>> Winchester, IN >> > I wrote a couple of notes about the flight characteristics with increased > dihedral. The notes are partially copied below from the archive for those > who might be interested. > > Vince Nicely > Firestar II > > do not archive > > Part of Note 1 - Aug 98 > > *My Firestar II is mostly a rudder airplane, but it was not always that > way. > Let me explain. When first setup as nearly as I could follow the Kolb > builders manual, my airplane gave an unusual rudder response compared to > my > GA experience. Specifically, on application of rudder, it would slow, > pitch > nose up and eventually could ususally be made to stall if rudder was held > full over. Furthermore, if the airplane was in a bit of a bank, the > rudder > alone would not lift the wing or cause the airplane to unbank, but caused > the other responses noted above. > > I decided to add more dihedral because that seemed like it had a chance to > make the responses more conventional compared to GA planes which I wanted. > Three degrees (3.6 degrees actually, VAN 11/06) of dihedral makes my > Firestar II able to fly all day without > touching the stick. Slight rudder inputs provide all the roll control > that > is needed. It can be brought out of a fairly steep (say 20-30 degree) > bank > with rudder alone. It has just about neutral spiral stability, i.e., when > put in a bank it will approximately hold or slightly lower the bank angle > without control inputs. > > When my plane is stalled, the rudder is very effective at lifting a wing > (or > in the other direction for putting it into a spin). I have not tried the > ailerons near stall, so can't comment until I fly it again. However, I > might not want to start using the ailerons because if it became a habit I > think that can complicate > the stall situation in many GA aircraft which I fly some times. Also, I > understand that in some aerobatic aircraft, at least, flat or knife-edge > spins are initiated by how the ailerons are held at spin entry. > > At any rate, it would appear from my experience the details of setup can > make some difference in how they fly. > > Vince* > > Note 2 in Answer to Some Questions - > > *>Vince: Very interesting. I only have experience with wings rigged to >>Homer's standards. By increasing dihedral, have you decreased >>performance? >> How much increase in inches to get 3 degree increase in dihedral measured >>at the outboard rib? >> >>john h > A very reasonable question. Sorry I didn't think to include that > information > the first time. > > I raised the outer tip of the wing 10" above the inboard edge. This turns > out to be about 3.5 degrees I think. By the way, on my Firestar II that > means the lift struts needed to be 2-1/4" longer than the standard setup. > Because my plane is folded in storage, I can't easily measure at the > outboard rib at this time, but it will be about 9" or a little more. > > You are right that I have given up a little performance. At the time, I > made some estimates and as I recall it was a trivial amount. The amount > of > dihedral was not optimized, either. Because I had to purchase parts to > make > the new lift struts, I made them at the longest I could imagine would be > needed so they could be shortened if needed. I liked the way it flew with > the 2-1/4" longer strut and did not experiment further. > > As you can imagine, the wings are noticeably canted up. Some have > wondered > if this is a problem in a cross wind with getting the wind under the wing > and raising it. I have set the plane sidewise to an 11 knot wind on an > airport ramp to see what happens. Then by trying to lift the up-wind and > down-wind wing tip, I decided the wind at 11 knots puts little lift on the > up-sloped wing. > > Regards, > Vince* > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:30 AM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Dihedral At 01:15 AM 11/20/06 -0800, you wrote: > >1. Add dihedral - more roll stability; more adverse yaw when moving the ailerons; more yaw/roll coupling when you move the rudder. > >2. Remove dihedral - less roll stability; less adverse yaw when moving the airlerons; less yaw/roll coupling when moving the rudder. > >Too much one way, and the aircraft gets twitchy and harder to fly. Too much the other way, and it becomes a truck. Look for the sweet spot in the middle somewhere. > Dave, My FireFly was the twitchy truck variety with the Kolb plan specified dihedral. The reason it was a truck was because cause of excessive aileron chord that lead to high control forces in roll. One could not displace the ailerons at cruise. This doomed one to kicking rudders to keep the wings level. By changing the wing chord from fifteen inches to nine inches and changing the crank to push rod leverage points the truck became a twitchy sports car. Removing all slack from the aileron control system and adding VG's the twitchiness has disappeared. If one lets go of the stick it will slowly roll off to one side. Stick pressure required to keep the wings level in rough air is very light. It is nimble and quick and goes where it supposed to. And best of all, I can fly it an hour in the middle of the day and have enough energy left to get right back in it and do it again. Adding dihedral to compensate for aileron high dynamic loading will make the aircraft more stable in roll. But it will require more pilot effort to fly in the middle of the day or cross country than a plane with reasonable sized ailerons. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:24 PM PST US From: WillUribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Stories of off-airport landings ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:17 PM PST US From: Larry Rice Subject: Kolb-List: N2H Remember that in 1956 there was no such thing as an ultralight in the regs. Larry the micromong guy -- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:42 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: N2H A flying buddy sent me the picture below alleging it is a Kolb. But I'm not so sure. What do ya'll think? Kolb or Fergie or something else? She's sure a pretty one either way. -Ken ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:19 PM PST US From: "Dennis Souder" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb Early N numbers for experimentals started out low and the early birds got the worms. The early guys got the low numbers and these became prestigious and sought after. As I recall Homer sold one of his early N numbers for $1,000. This was back when $1,000 was worth something. That's how I recall it. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LEE CREECH Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb Was it actually N-numbered? Looks like "N2H" on the fin, either a three-digit N number or a joke . . . Lee in Ky Firestar II >From: "Bill Vincent" >To: >Subject: Kolb-List: Picture of Homer Kolb >Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:45:43 -0600 > >Hi Gang >For the new List members who have not seen this picture, I thought it was >worthy to resend. >The picture is of Homer Kolb with a 1956 design powered by 4 chainsaw >engines, I guess this proves once and for all who the "real father" of >ultralights really is..... >Bill Vincent Firestar II >Upper Peninsula of Michigan > >Do Not Archive > > ><< HOMER_KOLB.jpg >> _________________________________________________________________ Share your latest news with your friends with the Windows Live Spaces friends module. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:02 PM PST US From: Earl & Mim Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: N2H kfackler@ameritech.net wrote: > A flying buddy sent me the picture below alleging it is a Kolb. But I'm > not so sure. > > What do ya'll think? Kolb or Fergie or something else? She's sure a > pretty one either way. > > -Ken Looks like a Firestar II ~ Earl Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:45 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: FSII Dihedral From: "Dave Bigelow" Jack, The heavy aileron control force problem you describe with the Firefly has little to do with dihedral. The Firestar has responsive and easy to move ailerons. Adding some dihedral adds little extra control force unless you go to extremes. Almost any aircraft will slowly start a roll to one side or other if you stay off the controls long enough. If it has spiral instability, it will continue to roll off to a high angle of bank. If it has the proper amount of spiral stability, the bank will stabilize at 20 - 30 degrees. Don't confuse light control forces with stability - not the same thing. -------- Dave Bigelow Kamuela, Hawaii FS2, HKS 700E Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75997#75997 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:16 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Stories of off-airport landings From: "John Williamson" It's only illegal if you get caught! -------- John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolbra, 912ULS http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76015#76015 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_3738_105.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_3739_104.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:12 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Stories of off-airport landings From: "John Hauck" Dire need for pit stop. Nearest airport 30 miles north of course. Could not make it to the next airport on course. Decided to land in a dry creek bed in the desert on the California/Nevada border east of LA. Good landing, but dry creek bed was very deep sand. As a precaution, dug out in front of each main tire to help get the aircraft moving initially. Got out ok. Unique experience a long way from anywhere. -------- John Hauck MKIII/912ULS hauck's holler, alabama Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76037#76037 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dry_wash_2_163.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dry_wash_1_411.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.