Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:25 AM - Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:01 AM - Re: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris Wolf (robert bean)
2. 05:51 AM - Re: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris Wolf (Eugene Zimmerman)
3. 05:55 AM - cables (pat ladd)
4. 06:29 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Richard Girard)
5. 07:05 AM - Control Cable (John Hauck)
6. 07:21 AM - Control Cable (John Hauck)
7. 07:52 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (John Hauck)
8. 08:32 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Richard Pike)
9. 08:51 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (John Hauck)
10. 10:57 AM - Re: Control Cable (Ralph)
11. 12:58 PM - Re: Control Cable (John Hauck)
12. 03:12 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Richard Girard)
13. 03:52 PM - Re: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris Wolf (possums)
14. 04:01 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Larry Bourne)
15. 04:10 PM - Y'all be careful out there ! (possums)
16. 04:37 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (John Hauck)
17. 04:51 PM - Almost pulled the BRS handle (Lanny Fetterman)
18. 05:02 PM - Re: Almost pulled the BRS handle (possums)
19. 05:54 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Eugene Zimmerman)
20. 06:06 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Dennis Souder)
21. 06:07 PM - and a happy new year. (possums)
22. 07:05 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (John Cooley)
23. 07:07 PM - Re: Control Cable (Ralph)
24. 07:44 PM - Re: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris Wolf (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
25. 08:01 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Earl & Mim Zimmerman)
26. 08:32 PM - Firestar Rudder Cables (Edward Bonsell)
27. 08:33 PM - Flying time ()
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| Subject: | Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! |
Dear Listers,
Well, its November 30th and that means three things...
1) Today I am now officially 43 years old... (arg...)
2) It marks that last "official" day of the List Fund Raiser!
3) Its the last day I will be bugging everyone for a whole year! :-)
If you use the Lists and enjoy the content and the no-advertising, no-spam, and
no-censorship way in which they're run, please make a Contribution today to support
their continued operation and upkeep. Your $20 or $30 goes a long way
to further the List operation and keep the bills paid.
I will be posting the List of Contributors next week, so make sure your name is
on it! :-)
Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this year! It is greatly
appreciated.
List Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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| Subject: | Re: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris Wolf |
John, would a dab of white grease in the fairlead area help? Never
would have
thought they would have a problem. I won't, however, stay awake nights
worrying
about rudder loss on my plane. Hardly even need the thing.
BB
do not archive
On 30, Nov 2006, at 12:22 AM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Hi Gene:
>
>
> Not you, my friend. I am slow to read, interpret, and understand
> stuff.
>
>
> How many flight hours were on these cables before they failed?
>
> What kind of cable was it?
>
> Strands, twists, wires, SS, Galvanized???
>
> The tighter the bend, the more prone a cable will be to failure. The
> US rudder cable has to make some 90 degree turns before it gets to the
> tail boom.
>
> Nylon fairleads, as used on the mkIII are very prone to wearing
> through strands of wire in the cables. There is constant rubbing
> during flight from vibration more than from operation of the pedals.
> Good idea to include cables in ones preflight, especially up elevator
> cables.
>
> Never had any wear in elevator cables on the mkIII, but do get a bit
> of wear on the rudder cables.
>
> Thanks,
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris Wolf |
John,
The cable failure in our MkII was probably eight or ten years ago. I
do not remember how many flight hrs it had at that time.
I'm certain Wilmer's Ultrastar was a high time plane when his
rudder cable failed.
To the best of my knowledge both planes had the cables that were
supplied with the kits from kolb. I don't recall if they were
stainless or galvanized but stainless definitely is inferior and
should be avoided for this application IMHO.
Another serious elevator issue that I have seem on some kolbs is with
cable turnbuckles. Where turnbuckles are bolted directly to the
control horn on the stick sometimes there is not enough clearance
for full stick movement in the yoke of the turnbuckle causing the
yoke of the turnbuckle to bottom out on the horn causing bending
side pressure on the stem of the turnbuckle. This condition will
eventually cause the turnbuckle to fail. The solution is to file or
grind the control horn to allow for full stick movement without the
yoke of the turnbuckle bottoming out on the horn.
Gene
On Nov 30, 2006, at 12:22 AM, John Hauck wrote:
> How many flight hours were on these cables before they failed?
>
> What kind of cable was it?
>
> Strands, twists, wires, SS, Galvanized???
Message 3
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|
re the couple of posts about rudder/elevator cables parting.
I have never heard of elevator cables giving way but I do remember one
instance where the rudder cables did not give way but the horn on one
side of the rudder was torn off.
I think that this is due to the fact that we unconsciously rest our feet
on the rudder pedals and keep the cables under constant tension. If we
hit a patch of turbulence or there is a concentrated bit of flying we
often brace ouselves in the cockpit against the pedals too.
Also I think that ultralight designers tend to specify small diameter
pulleys which means very sharp bends for the cables. Unfortunately
thicker cables only exacerbate the problem as the outside edge of the
cable tends to be stretched while the inside is compressed. I am
generally in favor of thicker cables but straightening the cable run.
I was always worried by the cable runs in my Challenger which were very
sharp, 90 degrees, the pulleys small, and the cables were worryingly
thin. I kept them well oiled and checked them for `spikes` on every
flight. They in fact never gave any trouble and I came to the conclusion
that it was the small diameter of the cable which was the saving grace.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Larry, Does your extra elevator cables also work as trim cables like the
original early Mk 3's, or do you just run them double from bell crank to
bell crank?
As I documented here last summer, the early system of returning the elevator
cable to the trim lever made for handling I didn't like. The airplane seemed
to hunt for a pitch attitude all the time. The reason is that when you pull
on some trim the elevator cable would go slack. Now each pitch input goes
through the trim spring. I'd pull back just a bit, I usually fly with index
finger and thumb wrapped around the bottom of the stick grip, and nothing
would happen. Pull back just a smidge more and oops now we're gaining a bit,
ease off the stick pressure and we're diving again. In my early days of
extreme ham handedness, when I had my whole hand wrapped around the stick
grip, I drove myself nuts. There were times when I could not tell if it was
the aircraft or me causing PIO's. We would just slide through the sky making
a gentle, shallow sine wave. Eventually I got pretty good at compensating,
but there was never a time when I could just relax and trim the airplane
out.
Unfortunately, unlike others, who can report on the effect of going to the
new style rigging, I'm still fooling around with a new electrical system for
my Mk 3 and won't be flying for several weeks. As soon as I get her airborne
again, I'll report on the change.
Incidentally, when I told Travis of the rigging I found, he said the guys at
TNK hadn't seen it done like this, so the change occured sometime before
they took over. My Mk 3 is serial # 43.
Rick
On 11/29/06, Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com> wrote:
>
>
> While thinking on this topic, I'll refer you to a page of my
> website. Take
> a look about 1/2 way down the page.............
>
> http://www.biglar.homestead.com/STARTINGTHECABIN.html
>
> Larry Bourne
> Santa Fe, NM
> www.gogittum.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
> To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris Wolf
>
>
> >
> > Gene, that exact thought is why Vamoose has dual elevator cables, and
> that
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 5
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Morning Bob B:
Took the liberty of changing the subject line to something a little
more appropriate.
Don't know if a dab of grease would help or not. Probably would, if
it did not also attract dirt and grit.
Not a big problem, but something to keep you eye on if you put a lot
of hours on your mkIII.
I can't remember how many times I have changed out the rudder and
elevator cables over the 2500 hours my mkIII has been flying, but not
that often.
john h
mkIII
Message 6
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|
with
| cable turnbuckles. Where turnbuckles are bolted directly to the
| control horn on the stick sometimes there is not enough clearance
| for full stick movement in the yoke of the turnbuckle causing the
| yoke of the turnbuckle to bottom out on the horn causing bending
| side pressure on the stem of the turnbuckle. This condition will
| eventually cause the turnbuckle to fail. The solution is to file or
| grind the control horn to allow for full stick movement without the
| yoke of the turnbuckle bottoming out on the horn.
|
| Gene
Gene Z:
I have also seen this turn buckle clearance problem on Kolbs. You are
absolutely right. It will eventually cause the turn buckle to fail.
I remember Old Kolb sending out a supplemental change to grind out
clearance on a Firestar control stick to prevent this from happening.
Another place that a cable gets bent with a hard side load is the
forward end of the throttle cable, where it is attached to the clevis.
If it bends enough it will eventually break.
These are areas that need to be checked and corrected before they
break.
Thanks for the turn buckle problem. I had forgotten about that one.
I changed the subject line to reflect what we are discussing.
john h
mkIII
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
| Larry, Does your extra elevator cables also work as trim cables like
the
| original early Mk 3's,
|
| Rick
Rick:
Believe you are mistaken on the dual up elevator cables and mkIII's.
I have serial number M3-011, was at the factory working when the first
mkIII kit was sitting on the shipping dock to be picked up by Rudy
Doctor. Forced pitch trim system with springs attached to the
elevator bell crank has always been that way on mkIII's.
The Twinstar used a cable operated elevator trim tab. So maybe the
mkII is the Kolb that used redundant up elevator cables.
You speak of the aircraft not wanting to settle down in pitch trim.
My mkIII was that way during experimentation with my adjustable
leading edge on the horizontal stabilizers, until I found the sweet
spot. Now it behaves its self.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
I had the same problem with it not wanting to settle down. In my case,
having a flap handle with three settings in the "up" position was the cure.
Regular "up", about 3 degrees more "up", and about three degrees down from
regular "up." That's the nice thing about the MKIII, no matter how you skin
the cat, you get good results.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
DNA
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
>
>
> the
>
>
> Rick:
>
> Believe you are mistaken on the dual up elevator cables and mkIII's.
> I have serial number M3-011, was at the factory working when the first
> mkIII kit was sitting on the shipping dock to be picked up by Rudy
> Doctor. Forced pitch trim system with springs attached to the
> elevator bell crank has always been that way on mkIII's.
>
> The Twinstar used a cable operated elevator trim tab. So maybe the
> mkII is the Kolb that used redundant up elevator cables.
>
> You speak of the aircraft not wanting to settle down in pitch trim.
> My mkIII was that way during experimentation with my adjustable
> leading edge on the horizontal stabilizers, until I found the sweet
> spot. Now it behaves its self.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
>
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
In my case,
| having a flap handle with three settings in the "up" position was
the cure.
Richard:
One of these days I would like to have infinite flap adjustment on my
mkIII. I think it would be fun to experiment with, and much, much
simpler than adjusting push/pull tubes each time a change was desired.
Main reason I never got around to doing a lot of experimentation with
reflexed flaps, pain in the butt set up in the normal configuration.
Eventually, I may get around to it. The old flap mechanism is showing
its age. Vibration has worn down the tabs an 1/8" or so over the
years.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Control Cable |
John and all, I've never changed elevator or rudder cables in the 20
years of flying my Kolb. I've inspected them many times and they are
still good.
Ralph
Original Firestar
20 years flying it
-- "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Morning Bob B:
Took the liberty of changing the subject line to something a little
more appropriate.
Don't know if a dab of grease would help or not. Probably would, if
it did not also attract dirt and grit.
Not a big problem, but something to keep you eye on if you put a lot
of hours on your mkIII.
I can't remember how many times I have changed out the rudder and
elevator cables over the 2500 hours my mkIII has been flying, but not
that often.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Control Cable |
20
| years of flying my Kolb. I've inspected them many times and they are
| still good.
|
| Ralph
Hi Ralph:
That is great!
Now, how does 20 years flying equate to hours flown?
Flight hours gives us a better idea of how much use/wear has been
placed on a piece of equipment. Most Kolb owners don't fly 50 hours a
year, and many of them do not log their flight time.
Guess you are getting geared up to start flying off the ice. :-)
john h
mkIII
I change mine out about every 1,000 hours.
john h
mkIII
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
John, perhaps my description was lacking. On my Mk. 3 the pitch trim cable
and the up elevator cable were two ends of the same long wire. From the
spring on the trim handle there was a multihole link of flat sheet metal and
the wire started there, went back to the aft elevator bell crank and then
forward to the forward elevator bell crank in the cockpit.
The forward bell crank differs from the current one shown in the plans and
does not have the tab and hole to hook up the trim wire coming from the
spring to the forward bellcrank.
My solution was to use a tang salvaged from my friend Jeff Johnson's 1975
Eipper-Formance FlexiFlyer Rogallo attached with the same bolt as the push
rod coming from the stick. The circuit is now the same as plans stock in
function, but I get to carry a piece of Jeff along with me from now on.
When I first recounted this last summer, I thanked another lister (sorry
forgot your name again) who had recounted a similar setup and published a
warning about it. Perhaps it was a mod endorsed by a small community of
builders, back when.
Once again assume made an ass of me. :-)
Rick
On 11/30/06, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> In my case,
> the cure.
>
>
> Richard:
>
> One of these days I would like to have infinite flap adjustment on my
> mkIII. I think it would be fun to experiment with, and much, much
> simpler than adjusting push/pull tubes each time a change was desired.
> Main reason I never got around to doing a lot of experimentation with
> reflexed flaps, pain in the butt set up in the normal configuration.
>
> Eventually, I may get around to it. The old flap mechanism is showing
> its age. Vibration has worn down the tabs an 1/8" or so over the
> years.
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris Wolf |
At 08:16 PM 11/29/2006, you wrote:
>
>I have survived several crashes in the US, FS, and MKIII. These
>crashes placed tremendous loads to both rudder cables through the
>pedals, during impact.
>We have experienced several fatal accidents on this
>List because parachute was not deployed. It takes training and
>practice to be ready to use the parachute, should the situation
>dictate its use. Not uncommon for folks to freeze up, physically and
>mentally, when critical situations occur. One must make a snap
>decision and act, right then to pull the red handle. Can not sit
>there and think about it.
I agree
1. I changed my pulleys to "real" aircraft parts a long time ago
the ones with the bearings etc. I've cut thru some of the cheaper ones
like John says.
2. If you don't practice (at least practice) pulling the red handle every time
you are sitting on the runway - about to takeoff, odds are that you will
not even remember that you have a chute when things go wrong,
I've been situations where I would (maybe?) have used the chute, but
didn't remember that I had one until it was to late to use it.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
It's hard to remember and the plane is 800 miles away. Seems like I ran
the trim cable to a separate anchor point on the elevator horn, to make
2 completely separate systems. I saw a couple of ideas that used a
common anchor point, and didn't think too much of them, cause you've
still really got the effect of just one actual cable. If that
connection failed, all the cables in the world wouldn't help.
Lar.
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Larry, Does your extra elevator cables also work as trim cables like
the original early Mk 3's, or do you just run them double from bell
crank to bell crank?
As I documented here last summer, the early system of returning the
elevator cable to the trim lever made for handling I didn't like. The
airplane seemed to hunt for a pitch attitude all the time. The reason is
that when you pull on some trim the elevator cable would go slack. Now
each pitch input goes through the trim spring. I'd pull back just a bit,
I usually fly with index finger and thumb wrapped around the bottom of
the stick grip, and nothing would happen. Pull back just a smidge more
and oops now we're gaining a bit, ease off the stick pressure and we're
diving again. In my early days of extreme ham handedness, when I had my
whole hand wrapped around the stick grip, I drove myself nuts. There
were times when I could not tell if it was the aircraft or me causing
PIO's. We would just slide through the sky making a gentle, shallow sine
wave. Eventually I got pretty good at compensating, but there was never
a time when I could just relax and trim the airplane out.
Unfortunately, unlike others, who can report on the effect of going to
the new style rigging, I'm still fooling around with a new electrical
system for my Mk 3 and won't be flying for several weeks. As soon as I
get her airborne again, I'll report on the change.
Incidentally, when I told Travis of the rigging I found, he said the
guys at TNK hadn't seen it done like this, so the change occured
sometime before they took over. My Mk 3 is serial # 43.
Rick
On 11/29/06, Larry Bourne <biglar@gogittum.com> wrote:
<biglar@gogittum.com>
While thinking on this topic, I'll refer you to a page of my
website. Take
a look about 1/2 way down the page.............
http://www.biglar.homestead.com/STARTINGTHECABIN.html
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Bourne" <biglar@gogittum.com>
To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris
Wolf
biglar@gogittum.com>
>
> Gene, that exact thought is why Please Support Your Lists This
Month -- Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided sp; * The Builder's
Bookstore www.homontribution"> sp;
-Ma=======================
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.
co=====================
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Y'all be careful out there ! |
http://www.jumpcut.com/view?id=8DAA37A65F9911DBA8C9961586523BC9
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Hi Gang:
Anybody know of a yahoo breaking a 3/32" aircraft cable on an elevator
on a mkIII? That cable has a breaking strength of 920 lbs.
If you double your 3/32" cable you will end up with about 1840 lbs.
If you go to a single 1/8" cable you will have to exert 1700 lbs to
break that cable.
Tell me, please. How the hell is anyone going to exert that much load
on that little bitty elevator???
Another note. Don't think Homer Kolb would have put us in jeopardy by
using a cable that was not strong enough to do the job. I am not a
mathematician or an engineer, so I don't know how much load is
possible to apply to the elevator. I have an idea though, that those
little 5/16" aluminum tubes in the elevator are going to bend and
break long before one overloads the cable.
Since I have a habit of breaking Homer's airplanes, I used a single
1/8" cable on my up elevator.
Of note is my pitch trim system cable which is 1/16" cable. 1/16"
cable has a breaking strength of 480 lbs. That is what we used for
tail wire bracing on the Ultrastar. Normally, my nose up trim is
carrying the up elevator flight load. That tiny cable has been doing
all that work for more than 2500 hours without as much of a whine.
But........if it makes you feel better, make'em redundant.
Let's see. The Piper Cubs and other small Piper aircraft all use 1/8"
elevator cable. Taylorcraft, same same. Wonder why the FAA did not
make them go redundant?
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 17
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| Subject: | Almost pulled the BRS handle |
Hi, Back when I was teaching myself to fly my Quicksilver MX, ( not too
smart of a decision as I look back on it, however there weren`t any
instructors close by 15 years ago ) I did a high speed stall at about 1500
AGL. I remember pulling back on the stick and the nose of the airplane just
kept going up and up and up, I was laying back in my seat looking at the
clouds, thinking, this is really cool!
When the stall broke, I heard the flying wires snap like a bow string,
thank goodness they didn`t break. I found myself looking straight down at
the fields of corn and soybeans. I was off the seat hanging from the seat
belt bent in a V shape, with NOTHING between me and the ground but 1500
feet of calm air. Thank goodness the seat belt held, or this would be an
accident not an incident!
When I took my hand off the stick to pull the BRS handle I couldn`t
believe the forces working against me. It took all my strength, ( I`m no
beast, but no wuss either) to force my hand in the direction of the BRS
handle. Before I could deploy the BRS, The Quicksilver flew itself back to
straight and level. ( no help from me). Incident over, all was good. I
landed safely and a lot smarter.
NOW HERE IS MY POINT: I always wonder, when I hear that the BRS was not
deployed, if the pilot could over come the forces, and get his hand on the
BRS handle. I guess it all depends which way you are tumbling. If people
have nine lives, I cashed in one of mine that day. Come to think of it I
probably only have one or two left.
Everyone fly safely out there! Lanny Fetterman N598LF FSII
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Almost pulled the BRS handle |
At 07:51 PM 11/30/2006, you wrote:
>
> When I took my hand off the stick to pull the BRS handle I
> couldn`t believe the forces working against me. It took all my
> strength, ( I`m no beast, but no wuss either) to force my hand in
> the direction of the BRS handle. Before I could deploy the BRS, The
> Quicksilver flew itself back to straight and level. ( no help from
> me). Incident over, all was good. I landed safely and a lot smarter.
> NOW HERE IS MY POINT: I always wonder, when I hear that the
> BRS was not deployed, if the pilot could over come the forces, and
> get his hand on the BRS handle. I guess it all depends which way
> you are tumbling.
When you need the chute,, you'd better be able to pull it with your
eyes closed, upside down and spinning out of control.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Hey John relax,
The issue is most certainly NOT cable strength.
I believe you are the one who reminded us in the past that everything
has a life span or life cycle.
I believe most cables have a life span longer than even the youngest
pilot.
but,
some cables break in flight,
some kolb wings break in flight.
Remember most kolbs are built by uncertified amateurs and flown by
fallible humans.
Gene Z
On Nov 30, 2006, at 7:37 PM, John Hauck wrote:
> Hi Gang:
>
> Anybody know of a yahoo breaking a 3/32" aircraft cable on an elevator
> on a mkIII? That cable has a breaking strength of 920 lbs.
>
> If you double your 3/32" cable you will end up with about 1840 lbs.
>
> If you go to a single 1/8" cable you will have to exert 1700 lbs to
> break that cable.
>
> Tell me, please. How the hell is anyone going to exert that much load
> on that little bitty elevator???
Message 20
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| Subject: | Dual Elevator Cables |
John,
I don't think that even you could break an elevator cable. If you could
pull hard enough to exert the necessary force to break the cable, the cable
would stretch enough so you would run out of travel.
With a straight run like the Mark-III has for the elevator, there is little
to fatigue it. The flight loads alone would not be sufficient to fatigue
it. Running over a pulley adds more stress than anything else, but there
are no pulleys in the M3 elevator system.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Hi Gang:
Anybody know of a yahoo breaking a 3/32" aircraft cable on an elevator
on a mkIII? That cable has a breaking strength of 920 lbs.
If you double your 3/32" cable you will end up with about 1840 lbs.
If you go to a single 1/8" cable you will have to exert 1700 lbs to
break that cable.
Tell me, please. How the hell is anyone going to exert that much load
on that little bitty elevator???
Another note. Don't think Homer Kolb would have put us in jeopardy by
using a cable that was not strong enough to do the job. I am not a
mathematician or an engineer, so I don't know how much load is
possible to apply to the elevator. I have an idea though, that those
little 5/16" aluminum tubes in the elevator are going to bend and
break long before one overloads the cable.
Since I have a habit of breaking Homer's airplanes, I used a single
1/8" cable on my up elevator.
Of note is my pitch trim system cable which is 1/16" cable. 1/16"
cable has a breaking strength of 480 lbs. That is what we used for
tail wire bracing on the Ultrastar. Normally, my nose up trim is
carrying the up elevator flight load. That tiny cable has been doing
all that work for more than 2500 hours without as much of a whine.
But........if it makes you feel better, make'em redundant.
Let's see. The Piper Cubs and other small Piper aircraft all use 1/8"
elevator cable. Taylorcraft, same same. Wonder why the FAA did not
make them go redundant?
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 21
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| Subject: | and a happy new year. |
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:hiKxAILexi0J:www.fugly.com/videos/4501/tbwa_xmas_wmv.html+xmas+%22tbwa%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
Message 22
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| Subject: | Dual Elevator Cables |
Dennis S.,
Is there a reason that the MK 3 trim system wasn't set-up similar to the
Twinstar MK II? I know a lot of other planes use a cockpit adjustable trim
tab on the elevator surface to control trim.
Another plus, unless I'm thinking wrong, is that if something did happen to
the up elevator cable or other control mechanism, you can still control
pitch with a cockpit adjustable trim system on the elevator.
Later,
John Cooley
Do not archive
John,
I don't think that even you could break an elevator cable. If you could
pull hard enough to exert the necessary force to break the cable, the cable
would stretch enough so you would run out of travel.
With a straight run like the Mark-III has for the elevator, there is little
to fatigue it. The flight loads alone would not be sufficient to fatigue
it. Running over a pulley adds more stress than anything else, but there
are no pulleys in the M3 elevator system.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Hi Gang:
Anybody know of a yahoo breaking a 3/32" aircraft cable on an elevator
on a mkIII? That cable has a breaking strength of 920 lbs.
If you double your 3/32" cable you will end up with about 1840 lbs.
If you go to a single 1/8" cable you will have to exert 1700 lbs to
break that cable.
Tell me, please. How the hell is anyone going to exert that much load
on that little bitty elevator???
Another note. Don't think Homer Kolb would have put us in jeopardy by
using a cable that was not strong enough to do the job. I am not a
mathematician or an engineer, so I don't know how much load is
possible to apply to the elevator. I have an idea though, that those
little 5/16" aluminum tubes in the elevator are going to bend and
break long before one overloads the cable.
Since I have a habit of breaking Homer's airplanes, I used a single
1/8" cable on my up elevator.
Of note is my pitch trim system cable which is 1/16" cable. 1/16"
cable has a breaking strength of 480 lbs. That is what we used for
tail wire bracing on the Ultrastar. Normally, my nose up trim is
carrying the up elevator flight load. That tiny cable has been doing
all that work for more than 2500 hours without as much of a whine.
But........if it makes you feel better, make'em redundant.
Let's see. The Piper Cubs and other small Piper aircraft all use 1/8"
elevator cable. Taylorcraft, same same. Wonder why the FAA did not
make them go redundant?
Take care,
john h
mkIII
--
--
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Control Cable |
John, sorry about not posting the hours. I have 810 hours on the
Firestar in 20 years. I'm a weekend flyer.
Ralph
Original Firestar
-- "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
20
| years of flying my Kolb. I've inspected them many times and they are
| still good.
|
| Ralph
Hi Ralph:
That is great!
Now, how does 20 years flying equate to hours flown?
Flight hours gives us a better idea of how much use/wear has been
placed on a piece of equipment. Most Kolb owners don't fly 50 hours a
year, and many of them do not log their flight time.
Guess you are getting geared up to start flying off the ice. :-)
john h
mkIII
I change mine out about every 1,000 hours.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Dave Pelletier, Michael Maikowski, and Chris Wolf |
another good reason to install in flight trim tab on your elevator
Ellery
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Dual Elevator Cables |
Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
> I know of two of at least two kolb planes and two pilots that
> experienced sudden complete tearing or breaking of rudder cables while
> in-flight.
>
> One was our own Mk II with my son Earl as the pilot taking off at the
> Father's day fly-in in a pretty good cross wind.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Remember most kolbs are built by uncertified amateurs and flown by
>> fallible humans.
>>
>> Gene Z
As I remember it the cable in question was exposed to some heat while
gas welding a pulley bracket with the cable was installed. The fresh
replacement cable has nearly 500 hrs. without a problem.
I agree with John. I don't think Dave's cables failed! There could be
nothing else that would hold the elevator up in the crash pictures that
were posted. Sure would love to know what DID happen!
~Earl
Message 26
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| Subject: | Firestar Rudder Cables |
I mentioned a few days back I found a few broken threads on the rudder
cables on my Firestar. I have just over 300 hours on the plane. The
threads were showing in the area where the cable goes around the pulley
under the seat. My first plane was a 1983 Cobra by Advanced Aviation.
One time I was inspecting the rudder cables on that and I found threads
breaking in the same place. Where they went around a pulley.
I got new cable and hardware so I'm ready to make new cables. The last
time it came up I believe it was best to leave a little bit of the cable
end sticking out after the 2nd nicopress? Do I remember that correctly?
I hope to have some photo's soon.
Ed
Message 27
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> John, sorry about not posting the hours. I have 810 hours on the
> Firestar in 20 years. I'm a weekend flyer.
I got my Mark II back in the air after the winter hiartus at the end of
April. As of last weekend I have a bit over 100 hours this year. There's
~350 on this engine and I put 135 on the engine that was on it when I bought
it. So, ~485 hrs on the bird since I first put it in the air in September
2002. That's in Michigan where we can only fly about 8 months each year at
best.
-Ken Fackler
Kolb Mark II / A722KWF
Rochester MI
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