Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:11 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd)
2. 04:17 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd)
3. 04:31 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd)
4. 04:32 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Dennis Souder)
5. 04:37 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd)
6. 04:45 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd)
7. 04:48 AM - Re: carburetor ice question (pat ladd)
8. 05:02 AM - Re: Ultrastar (John Jung)
9. 05:33 AM - Re: Rudder Cables (Eugene Zimmerman)
10. 05:47 AM - Re: Ultrastar (DANIEL WALTER)
11. 05:56 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Richard Pike)
12. 06:36 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (John Hauck)
13. 06:46 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Richard Girard)
14. 07:11 AM - Re: Rudder Cables (Richard Girard)
15. 07:36 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Dana Hague)
16. 07:37 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (John Hauck)
17. 12:19 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash (Bob Noyer)
18. 12:25 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash (Richard Pike)
19. 01:11 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Ed Chmielewski)
20. 02:35 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Bob Noyer)
21. 03:07 PM - NE crash (Richard Girard)
22. 03:28 PM - Re: carburetor ice question (Arksey@aol.com)
23. 03:32 PM - Re: NE crash (Richard Girard)
24. 03:36 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Larry Bourne)
25. 03:39 PM - Re: NE crash (John Hauck)
26. 05:22 PM - Re:The pro &con of D.T. D, was dool L E vador K bull (Eugene Zimmerman)
27. 05:29 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (George Thompson)
28. 05:39 PM - Aileron Hinges (grabo172)
29. 05:59 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Larry Bourne)
30. 06:01 PM - Re: Aileron Hinges (Larry Bourne)
31. 06:35 PM - Re: Aileron Hinges (John Hauck)
32. 07:02 PM - Re: Aileron Hinges (grabo172)
33. 07:37 PM - Re: Re:The pro &con of D.T. D, was dool L E vador K bull (Bob Noyer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
"Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" Hope it stays that way.>>
Hi Steve,
Good luck to you. Perhaps you have more open space to fall into without
hurting someone than we have..
We had that freedom in the early days when people began to add little
engines to hang gliders. Then several bad accidents occurred and it was
either get organised or get banned completely.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" Hope it stays that way.>>
Hi Steve,
Just an afterthought. perhaps that is why everyone seems so exercised
about fitting dual cables. If I had a design that had never been
subjected to a proper engineering analysis I would have dual cables
everywhere.
I dont mind sticking my neck out, I built and used an aqualung from a
Practical Mechanics article the thought of which scares me to death now,
but a flying machine?.......
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
However they said it is way down the line on the list of planes to be
looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any word on the
cause.>>
Hi George,
that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have such a backlog
of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky like
autumn leaves.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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| Subject: | Dual Elevator Cables |
John,
The trim tab worked well, if installed correctly. A couple builders as I
recall switched the spring and the cable attachments and this could result
in flutter of the trim tab, not having enough tension on the spring could
also create problems. There were some other misc considerations too,
appearance and ease of elevator folding, I think. So as I recall the change
was made to the simpler system on the MK3 for these reasons.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cooley
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:05 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Dennis S.,
Is there a reason that the MK 3 trim system wasn't set-up similar to the
Twinstar MK II? I know a lot of other planes use a cockpit adjustable trim
tab on the elevator surface to control trim.
Another plus, unless I'm thinking wrong, is that if something did happen to
the up elevator cable or other control mechanism, you can still control
pitch with a cockpit adjustable trim system on the elevator.
Later,
John Cooley
Do not archive
John,
I don't think that even you could break an elevator cable. If you could
pull hard enough to exert the necessary force to break the cable, the cable
would stretch enough so you would run out of travel.
With a straight run like the Mark-III has for the elevator, there is little
to fatigue it. The flight loads alone would not be sufficient to fatigue
it. Running over a pulley adds more stress than anything else, but there
are no pulleys in the M3 elevator system.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Hi Gang:
Anybody know of a yahoo breaking a 3/32" aircraft cable on an elevator
on a mkIII? That cable has a breaking strength of 920 lbs.
If you double your 3/32" cable you will end up with about 1840 lbs.
If you go to a single 1/8" cable you will have to exert 1700 lbs to
break that cable.
Tell me, please. How the hell is anyone going to exert that much load
on that little bitty elevator???
Another note. Don't think Homer Kolb would have put us in jeopardy by
using a cable that was not strong enough to do the job. I am not a
mathematician or an engineer, so I don't know how much load is
possible to apply to the elevator. I have an idea though, that those
little 5/16" aluminum tubes in the elevator are going to bend and
break long before one overloads the cable.
Since I have a habit of breaking Homer's airplanes, I used a single
1/8" cable on my up elevator.
Of note is my pitch trim system cable which is 1/16" cable. 1/16"
cable has a breaking strength of 480 lbs. That is what we used for
tail wire bracing on the Ultrastar. Normally, my nose up trim is
carrying the up elevator flight load. That tiny cable has been doing
all that work for more than 2500 hours without as much of a whine.
But........if it makes you feel better, make'em redundant.
Let's see. The Piper Cubs and other small Piper aircraft all use 1/8"
elevator cable. Taylorcraft, same same. Wonder why the FAA did not
make them go redundant?
Take care,
john h
mkIII
--
--
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
How many innocent bystanders/uninvolved third parties have been taken
out by a legal ultralight? Some? A few? None?
Hi Richard,
Passengers?
Pat
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
The EAA did an excellent job of lobbying the CAA/FAA to allow builders
to be creative, >>
Hi Dave,
There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like an
`Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too
tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I
wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G
is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way,
or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel
flow.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: carburetor ice question |
engine quit when I throttled back to land. >>
Hi,
perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but I think
that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
Message 8
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Dana,
The Ultrastar with an enclosed trailer for $3000 sounds like a very good deal.
But that assumes that you want an Ultrastar. The Ultrastar is know as an excellent
flying airplane, like all Kolbs. It has a lower thrust line then the others
which is desireable. But, IMO, the thrust line and the price are the only things
better, and may not be enough reason to buy one. Ultrastars were likely
welded by the builders and not by Kolb. They have no factory support. They are
realatively easily damaged on the ground, and not easy to repair. They also may
lack a structural improvement in the wings.
I suggest that you consider buying it, selling the Ultrastar, and buying a Firefly
to keep in the trailer.
--------
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78615#78615
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Cables |
Ed / All,
In retrospect my statement about stainless cable being inadequate for
our Kolb aircraft applications appears to be an exaggerated
overstatement.
I have not been able to find the specific data to confirm my comment
and even if I had it would probably have been outdated by now anyway.
If your stainless cable is rated aircraft cable it is most likely
is more than adequate for our use. However that said, it is true
that aircraft cable is made in several different types designed to
meet various specific criteria.
I apologize to you / all, for making what appears to me now to be an
exaggerated stereotypical statement about stainless steel cable for
our Kolb planes.
Eugene Zimmerman
On Dec 2, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Edward Bonsell wrote:
> Cables may not look bad at first sight. If you remove the cable and
> bend it where it went around the pulley, some threads may break
> from bending it the opposite way. Rubbing a piece of tissue on the
> cable will find broken threads. It rips off on the sharp ends.
> Watch your fingers the threads are sharp.
>
> Also, Eugene said:
> >To the best of my knowledge both planes had the cables that were
> >supplied with the kits from kolb. I don't recall if they were
> >stainless or galvanized but stainless definitely is inferior and
> >should be avoided for this application IMHO.
>
> Is this true? I got stainless cable to replace mine. Maybe I should
> have gotten the Galvanized cable?
>
> Ed
>
> ============================================================ _-
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List_-
> ===========================================================
Message 10
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Dana, Most people I have talked to loved their Ultrastars, I love mine.
It's difficult to build a US at 254# although I have never weighed mine,
W&B done by hanging from balance point.
Folding can be done by one person, but not something you would want to
do every time, unless absolutely necessary.
I found the US can handle the same wind as a Quicksilver sport single
with ailerons.
I think that the US can be one of the lowest cost best planes out there.
Do Not Archive
Dan Walter
Ultrastar
Palmyra, PA.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Hague" <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 1:08 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Ultrastar
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to this list. I have an opportunity to buy an Ultrastar
> Will it be a "true legal" 103 machine (<254#)?
> Would it still make weight if the engine was replaced, say, with a 447?
>
> How long does it take to fold / unfold the wings with one person? >
> What kind of winds can it handle (with an experienced pilot)?
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Legal ultralights do not carry passengers.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: pat ladd
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
How many innocent bystanders/uninvolved third parties have been taken
out by a legal ultralight? Some? A few? None?
Hi Richard,
Passengers?
Pat
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Then several bad accidents occurred and it was either get organised
or get banned completely.
Cheers
Pat
Patrick:
Did over regulation, on your side of the pond, prevent further "bad
accidents"?
john h
mkIII
hauck's holler, alabama
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Pat, Well I know of one innocent bystander who was killed by a part 103 hang
glider. It happened at Dog Mtn. in Washington state in the late 80's. She
was watching a high wind launch when one wingman didn't let go of the wire,
the glider did a ground loop and knocked her head first into a rock.
Right now the FAA is seeking the maximum penalty, 10 years in prison and a
$10,000 fine, against an ultralight pilot in Nebraska who crashed his
Quicksilver into a storage building along side a football field while
carrying a passenger, after dark, doing low level aerobatics, while a
football game was in progress. It seems like it wouldn't be possible to pack
so much stupid into a single crash, but this fool managed it. Gotta be a
world record (Kudos to "Our Man Flint").
Rick
On 12/2/06, Richard Pike <richard@bcchapel.org> wrote:
>
> Legal ultralights do not carry passengers.
> Richard Pike
> MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* pat ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:37 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
>
> How many innocent bystanders/uninvolved third parties have been taken out
> by a legal ultralight? Some? A few? None?
> Hi Richard,
>
> Passengers?
>
> Pat
>
> do not archive
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Cables |
Gene, As it happens, I was buying cable last night from that great aviation
supplier, McMaster Carr (www.mcmaster.com). The have an excellent set of
drawings of cable types and a spec table for each type. Look under wire
rope.
As for this worry about control cables beaking, consider this. Hang gliders
use this same cable as primary structure. My 1981 Sensor 510 has stainless
steel, 3/32" rigging. I inspect it every time I set it up and I end every
flight with a wing over just because. Now that I live in Kansas, I'll have
to give up the wing over unless it's a REALLY GOOD day. :-)
Rick
On 12/2/06, Eugene Zimmerman <etzim62@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> Ed / All,
>
> In retrospect my statement about stainless cable being inadequate for
> our Kolb aircraft applications appears to be an exaggerated
> overstatement.
>
> I have not been able to find the specific data to confirm my comment
> and even if I had it would probably have been outdated by now anyway.
>
> If your stainless cable is rated "aircraft cable" it is most likely
> is more than adequate for our use. However that said, it is true
> that "aircraft cable" is made in several different types designed to
> meet various specific criteria.
>
> I apologize to you / all, for making what appears to me now to be an
> exaggerated stereotypical statement about stainless steel cable for
> our Kolb planes.
>
> Eugene Zimmerman
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Edward Bonsell wrote:
>
> > Cables may not look bad at first sight. If you remove the cable and
> > bend it where it went around the pulley, some threads may break
> > from bending it the opposite way. Rubbing a piece of tissue on the
> > cable will find broken threads. It rips off on the sharp ends.
> > Watch your fingers the threads are sharp.
> >
> > Also, Eugene said:
> > >To the best of my knowledge both planes had the cables that were
> > >supplied with the kits from kolb. I don't recall if they were
> > >stainless or galvanized but stainless definitely is inferior and
> > >should be avoided for this application IMHO.
> >
> > Is this true? I got stainless cable to replace mine. Maybe I should
> > have gotten the Galvanized cable?
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ============================================================ _-
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List_-
> > ===========================================================
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
At 09:45 AM 12/2/2006, Richard Girard wrote:
>Right now the FAA is seeking the maximum penalty, 10 years in prison and a
>$10,000 fine, against an ultralight pilot in Nebraska who crashed his
>Quicksilver into a storage building along side a football field while
>carrying a passenger, after dark, doing low level aerobatics, while a
>football game was in progress...
Typically the FAA doesn't investigate ultralight crashes at all, fatal or
not... once they determine it was a legal ultralight, they leave it up to
local law enforcement to conduct any investigation.
In the Nebraska crash, if it's the one I recall, although it looked like a
2 seater in the TV news film, I didn't think he was carrying a
passenger. Either way, as soon as there are two seats, or it's otherwise
blatantly "fat", unless the pilot can make a convincing case that it was
being legally operated under a training exemption, they throw the book at
him, considering it not an ultralight but an unregistered, uninspected
aircraft, probably unlicensed pilot, no BFR, low flying (unlike part 103,
the 500' rule applies if they determine it's an "aircraft" and not a
"vehicle", even if unregistered), low aerobatics, careless and reckless
operation, etc. I don't envy that pilot... but he's an idiot, deserves
whatever he's got coming.
-Dana
--
--
The family that shoots together..... shouldn't be messed with!
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
prison and a
| $10,000 fine, against an ultralight pilot in Nebraska who crashed
his
| Quicksilver into a storage building along side a football field
while
| carrying a passenger, after dark, doing low level aerobatics, while
a
| football game was in progress.
|
| Rick
Rick G:
Is this the accident you are referring to?
http://urlsnip.com/882618
john h
mkIII
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash |
Typical newspaper reporting: "A single seat airplane.......saw the
plane hover.....engine had stalled....two people taken to the
hospital...."
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash |
Probably hit one of them air pockets...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Noyer" <a58r@verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash
>
> Typical newspaper reporting: "A single seat airplane.......saw the
> plane hover.....engine had stalled....two people taken to the
> hospital...."
> regards,
> Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
> http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
----- Original Message -----
From: pat ladd
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Hi Pat,
"If I had a design that had never been subjected to a proper
engineering analysis I would have dual cables everywhere."
I wasn't aware the Kolb series had never had 'proper engineering
analysis' as you infer. It's my understanding that Kolbs are all
well-designed and engineered. Adding cables for no better reason than
appeasing one's insecurity doesn't seem a sound design principle. Hell,
why stop at two? Three, seven, keep going until the boom is stuffed.
I've not seen a statement anywhere on this list to date that convinces
me of a need for dual cables anywhere on a Kolb.
*************************************************************************
*******************
George: "However they said it is way down the line on the list of
planes to be
looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any word
on the
cause."
Hi George,
"that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have such a
backlog
of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky
like
autumn leaves."
The backlog is due more to understaffing than 'planes falling out of
the sky'. No one's immune to aircraft accidents, and I believe you
folks have had your fair share. Don't forget the far greater number of
operations here, too.
*************************************************************************
********************
"There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like an
`Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too
tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I
wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G
is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way,
or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel
flow."
No one here adopts an attitude of 'build what you like provided the C
of G is in the right place'. Were that the case, how would one know
whether the CG is off? Certainly not the haphazard shadetree designer
providing the data. Flying wires and engines don't know from
bureaucratic rules.
Regulations don't make an aircraft safe. Design and the operator do.
*************************************************************************
***********************
" perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but I
think that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage."
If that were so, no one would ever have a problem with carb ice. You
obviously have never experienced it.
*************************************************************************
*****************
These posts seem to reflect an anti-US attitude, call into question
the design standards of the Kolb series, and demonstrate a general lack
of knowledge about aircraft design and operation, at least as it applies
in the US. (Or, it could be me and the approach of winter here in
Michigan.) At any rate, we wouldn't be having this discussion were it
not for the many talented ultralight pioneers like Homer Kolb and
others, both here and abroad.
I for one would appreciate less 'conjecture' and more pure information
without the bias and misinformation.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
I used a pair of 1/16 in. cables to "elevate" my FireFly for CG
measurement, although a single would have been OK. Total drop 2"
This thread has become a cable, or vv?
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 21
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http://urlsnip.com/882618
Hard to believe two morons would do nearly the same thing, but the
description is all wrong compared to the video. It looked like he was coming
out of a dive to buzz the field and clipped the building just below the top
(missed it by that much!) about four to six feet inboard of the left
wingtip. The aircraft was spun around and inverted when it went down between
scrambling spectators, the building and a chain link fence. The pilot was
okay, but his passenger had a broken arm.
I'll try to get a copy of the video and post it.
Rick
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: carburetor ice question |
Hi Jimmy,
Yes we got to Florida Wed. evening before Thanksgiving, hauled the
Firestar down here in a enclosed trailer. hauled it with my olds van, worked ok.
The trailer was built for a firestar but with a 2 blade prop so i had to remove
the 3 blade prop to get it in the trailer....trailer worked fine and pulled
good, but when i hit uneven pavement it would rock back and forth like a baby
buggy....I intend to put shocks on it to stop that action...It was a bit of
work to haul but if the flying down here this winter is enjoyable I will do it
again...
Regard the carburetor ice, I am sure that is what the problem was and I
intend to look into carb heat, it was ideal conditions for it and as I fly
whenever i can I guess i better have carb heat to take care of it....I would not
like to be over hostile country and have that happen. I sure have had fun
flying the plane this last summer and am very happy with it. I am near
Sebring Florida and you should think about coming down for the sport category
exp
at the sebring airport the 1st part of Jan. and I will show you around the
area and for sure try and make Sun and Fun...I hope to be there with the plane
and camp in the ultra light section...
I will be back to flying down here in a week or so...been fishing some
already.
Jim Swan Firestar ll Michigan
do not archive
Message 23
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After a little poking around I found another report on this crash that
describes it more like what's in the video. The links to the video have
apparently expired.
Rick
On 12/2/06, Richard Girard <jindoguy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> http://urlsnip.com/882618
>
> Hard to believe two morons would do nearly the same thing, but the
> description is all wrong compared to the video. It looked like he was coming
> out of a dive to buzz the field and clipped the building just below the top
> (missed it by that much!) about four to six feet inboard of the left
> wingtip. The aircraft was spun around and inverted when it went down between
> scrambling spectators, the building and a chain link fence. The pilot was
> okay, but his passenger had a broken arm.
> I'll try to get a copy of the video and post it.
>
> Rick
>
> --
> Rick Girard
> "Ya'll drop on in"
> takes on a whole new meaning
> when you live at the airport.
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Ed, the "need" is questionable, obviously, and that has been well
addressed here. Addressing my insecurity is also questionable, but sure
makes me feel better. There are obviously many on the List who disagree
with me, and also some who do agree. It's well established that the
Kolb's are well engineered planes, which is one of several reasons I
bought my kit in the 1st place.
When taking my flying lessons for my private pilot's license in Port
Angeles, WA, back in '95, my instructor, Roger Andersen, required me to
learn to fly the plane (Cessna 172) with trim only, since, as I recall
he said, "if something happens to the up elevator system, you're in bad
trouble, and this gives you a way to fly the plane." A couple of BFR's
later, my check instructor had me fly the plane (again, a 172) onto
short final with only the elevator trim, before ending the exercise. It
worked well - the landing would have been a good one - and I was
suitably impressed. I believe it was around that time that I was
assembling my Mk III and got to looking at the elevator cable &
attachment to the elevator tang. "Hmmm," I thought, "what if that thing
decided to pop, for whatever reason ??" The chances are vanishingly
small, but the picture in my mind of watching the ground come up while I
could do nothing didn't please me much, when an alternative is so
simple. In my youth I rode motorcycles for several years and several
times saw the brake and clutch cables break. So. I ran a completely
separate cable to the elevator tang, and connected it to the trim
mechanism. I feel much more secure. If someone doesn't agree with me,
fine. Don't use it. But......I WILL use it. Don't bash me for
watching out for my precious ass. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Chmielewski
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
----- Original Message -----
From: pat ladd
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Hi Pat,
"If I had a design that had never been subjected to a proper
engineering analysis I would have dual cables everywhere."
I wasn't aware the Kolb series had never had 'proper engineering
analysis' as you infer. It's my understanding that Kolbs are all
well-designed and engineered. Adding cables for no better reason than
appeasing one's insecurity doesn't seem a sound design principle. Hell,
why stop at two? Three, seven, keep going until the boom is stuffed.
I've not seen a statement anywhere on this list to date that convinces
me of a need for dual cables anywhere on a Kolb.
*************************************************************************
*******************
George: "However they said it is way down the line on the list of
planes to be
looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any word
on the
cause."
Hi George,
"that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have such
a backlog
of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky
like
autumn leaves."
The backlog is due more to understaffing than 'planes falling out of
the sky'. No one's immune to aircraft accidents, and I believe you
folks have had your fair share. Don't forget the far greater number of
operations here, too.
*************************************************************************
********************
"There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like an
`Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too
tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I
wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G
is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way,
or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel
flow."
No one here adopts an attitude of 'build what you like provided the
C of G is in the right place'. Were that the case, how would one know
whether the CG is off? Certainly not the haphazard shadetree designer
providing the data. Flying wires and engines don't know from
bureaucratic rules.
Regulations don't make an aircraft safe. Design and the operator
do.
*************************************************************************
***********************
" perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but I
think that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage."
If that were so, no one would ever have a problem with carb ice.
You obviously have never experienced it.
*************************************************************************
*****************
These posts seem to reflect an anti-US attitude, call into question
the design standards of the Kolb series, and demonstrate a general lack
of knowledge about aircraft design and operation, at least as it applies
in the US. (Or, it could be me and the approach of winter here in
Michigan.) At any rate, we wouldn't be having this discussion were it
not for the many talented ultralight pioneers like Homer Kolb and
others, both here and abroad.
I for one would appreciate less 'conjecture' and more pure
information without the bias and misinformation.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
Message 25
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| description is all wrong compared to the video.
|
| Rick
Rick:
Sure is.............and at the same town, Lincoln, Nebraska, and at
the same football stadium, Blue Hill. ;-)
Oh yea, and on the same date.
Here are a buncha articles on the crash. I am out the door for cat
fish, shrimp, and oysters, in Wetumpka, Alabama. Don't have time to
read them now.
http://www.topix.net/city/blue-hill-ne/page2
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re:The pro &con of D.T. D, was dool L E vador K bull |
Hey Bob,
Could you please tell just a little bit about the pros and cons of
the D ownwind T urn D emon.
Please, just TINY LITTLE bitty now, ya hear?
On Dec 2, 2006, at 5:34 PM, Bob Noyer wrote:
> This thread has become a cable, or vv?
do not archive
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Way to go Larry, I'm with you. We can never be too safe in our hobby. I
don't think you are overly safety conscious.
We went to Dave's memorial today. It was one of the hardest things
that I have ever done. But I got thu the eulogize without breaking down
and it was an absolutely beautiful program.
George Thompson
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bourne
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Ed, the "need" is questionable, obviously, and that has been well
addressed here. Addressing my insecurity is also questionable, but sure
makes me feel better. There are obviously many on the List who disagree
with me, and also some who do agree. It's well established that the
Kolb's are well engineered planes, which is one of several reasons I
bought my kit in the 1st place.
When taking my flying lessons for my private pilot's license in Port
Angeles, WA, back in '95, my instructor, Roger Andersen, required me to
learn to fly the plane (Cessna 172) with trim only, since, as I recall
he said, "if something happens to the up elevator system, you're in bad
trouble, and this gives you a way to fly the plane." A couple of BFR's
later, my check instructor had me fly the plane (again, a 172) onto
short final with only the elevator trim, before ending the exercise. It
worked well - the landing would have been a good one - and I was
suitably impressed. I believe it was around that time that I was
assembling my Mk III and got to looking at the elevator cable &
attachment to the elevator tang. "Hmmm," I thought, "what if that thing
decided to pop, for whatever reason ??" The chances are vanishingly
small, but the picture in my mind of watching the ground come up while I
could do nothing didn't please me much, when an alternative is so
simple. In my youth I rode motorcycles for several years and several
times saw the brake and clutch cables break. So. I ran a completely
separate cable to the elevator tang, and connected it to the trim
mechanism. I feel much more secure. If someone doesn't agree with me,
fine. Don't use it. But......I WILL use it. Don't bash me for
watching out for my precious ass. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Chmielewski
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
----- Original Message -----
From: pat ladd
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Hi Pat,
"If I had a design that had never been subjected to a proper
engineering analysis I would have dual cables everywhere."
I wasn't aware the Kolb series had never had 'proper engineering
analysis' as you infer. It's my understanding that Kolbs are all
well-designed and engineered. Adding cables for no better reason than
appeasing one's insecurity doesn't seem a sound design principle. Hell,
why stop at two? Three, seven, keep going until the boom is stuffed.
I've not seen a statement anywhere on this list to date that convinces
me of a need for dual cables anywhere on a Kolb.
*************************************************************************
*******************
George: "However they said it is way down the line on the list of
planes to be
looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any
word on the
cause."
Hi George,
"that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have
such a backlog
of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky
like
autumn leaves."
The backlog is due more to understaffing than 'planes falling out
of the sky'. No one's immune to aircraft accidents, and I believe you
folks have had your fair share. Don't forget the far greater number of
operations here, too.
*************************************************************************
********************
"There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like an
`Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too
tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I
wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G
is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way,
or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel
flow."
No one here adopts an attitude of 'build what you like provided
the C of G is in the right place'. Were that the case, how would one
know whether the CG is off? Certainly not the haphazard shadetree
designer providing the data. Flying wires and engines don't know from
bureaucratic rules.
Regulations don't make an aircraft safe. Design and the operator
do.
*************************************************************************
***********************
" perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but I
think that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage."
If that were so, no one would ever have a problem with carb ice.
You obviously have never experienced it.
*************************************************************************
*****************
These posts seem to reflect an anti-US attitude, call into
question the design standards of the Kolb series, and demonstrate a
general lack of knowledge about aircraft design and operation, at least
as it applies in the US. (Or, it could be me and the approach of winter
here in Michigan.) At any rate, we wouldn't be having this discussion
were it not for the many talented ultralight pioneers like Homer Kolb
and others, both here and abroad.
I for one would appreciate less 'conjecture' and more pure
information without the bias and misinformation.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
12/2/2006
Message 28
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|
So I got the plans for my Firestar that I bought used. While looking through them
I noticed the aileron assembly section mentioned that they fold down against
the wing bottom when folding the wings... as I was thinking about it I thought
"my ailerons don't fold down that far?"
Went and checked the plans against my plane and it appears my hinges are installed
upside down. The pin bump is on the top, when the plans show it being toward
the bottom... that explains why they don't fold correctly.
So my question is... are the holes drilled in the hinges even on both sides so
all I have to do is drill out the rivets and flip the hinges over?
I didn't look close when I went to check which way they were, and I just thought
that I'd ask if anyone know off hand...
Secondly, do you think that may be why I've had to replace a bunch of rivets already
(I've had the plane for 4 months and have replaced about 15 or so of the
hinge rivets)
Thanks!
--------
-Erik Grabowski
Kolb Firestar N197BG
CFI/CFII
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78743#78743
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dual Elevator Cables |
Thanks, George, and good on you. I'd have been snuffling like a baby.
Lar. Do not Archive.
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: George Thompson
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Way to go Larry, I'm with you. We can never be too safe in our hobby.
I don't think you are overly safety conscious.
We went to Dave's memorial today. It was one of the hardest things
that I have ever done. But I got thu the eulogize without breaking down
and it was an absolutely beautiful program.
George Thompson
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bourne
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Ed, the "need" is questionable, obviously, and that has been well
addressed here. Addressing my insecurity is also questionable, but sure
makes me feel better. There are obviously many on the List who disagree
with me, and also some who do agree. It's well established that the
Kolb's are well engineered planes, which is one of several reasons I
bought my kit in the 1st place.
When taking my flying lessons for my private pilot's license in Port
Angeles, WA, back in '95, my instructor, Roger Andersen, required me to
learn to fly the plane (Cessna 172) with trim only, since, as I recall
he said, "if something happens to the up elevator system, you're in bad
trouble, and this gives you a way to fly the plane." A couple of BFR's
later, my check instructor had me fly the plane (again, a 172) onto
short final with only the elevator trim, before ending the exercise. It
worked well - the landing would have been a good one - and I was
suitably impressed. I believe it was around that time that I was
assembling my Mk III and got to looking at the elevator cable &
attachment to the elevator tang. "Hmmm," I thought, "what if that thing
decided to pop, for whatever reason ??" The chances are vanishingly
small, but the picture in my mind of watching the ground come up while I
could do nothing didn't please me much, when an alternative is so
simple. In my youth I rode motorcycles for several years and several
times saw the brake and clutch cables break. So. I ran a completely
separate cable to the elevator tang, and connected it to the trim
mechanism. I feel much more secure. If someone doesn't agree with me,
fine. Don't use it. But......I WILL use it. Don't bash me for
watching out for my precious ass. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Chmielewski
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
----- Original Message -----
From: pat ladd
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables
Hi Pat,
"If I had a design that had never been subjected to a proper
engineering analysis I would have dual cables everywhere."
I wasn't aware the Kolb series had never had 'proper engineering
analysis' as you infer. It's my understanding that Kolbs are all
well-designed and engineered. Adding cables for no better reason than
appeasing one's insecurity doesn't seem a sound design principle. Hell,
why stop at two? Three, seven, keep going until the boom is stuffed.
I've not seen a statement anywhere on this list to date that convinces
me of a need for dual cables anywhere on a Kolb.
*************************************************************************
*******************
George: "However they said it is way down the line on the list
of planes to be
looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any
word on the
cause."
Hi George,
"that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have
such a backlog
of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the
sky like
autumn leaves."
The backlog is due more to understaffing than 'planes falling
out of the sky'. No one's immune to aircraft accidents, and I believe
you folks have had your fair share. Don't forget the far greater number
of operations here, too.
*************************************************************************
********************
"There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like
an `Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too
tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I
wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G
is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way,
or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel
flow."
No one here adopts an attitude of 'build what you like provided
the C of G is in the right place'. Were that the case, how would one
know whether the CG is off? Certainly not the haphazard shadetree
designer providing the data. Flying wires and engines don't know from
bureaucratic rules.
Regulations don't make an aircraft safe. Design and the
operator do.
*************************************************************************
***********************
" perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but
I think that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage."
If that were so, no one would ever have a problem with carb ice.
You obviously have never experienced it.
*************************************************************************
*****************
These posts seem to reflect an anti-US attitude, call into
question the design standards of the Kolb series, and demonstrate a
general lack of knowledge about aircraft design and operation, at least
as it applies in the US. (Or, it could be me and the approach of winter
here in Michigan.) At any rate, we wouldn't be having this discussion
were it not for the many talented ultralight pioneers like Homer Kolb
and others, both here and abroad.
I for one would appreciate less 'conjecture' and more pure
information without the bias and misinformation.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Date: 12/2/2006
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Hinges |
I would be seriously amazed if you could flip them and have the holes line
up. Hinges are inexpensive, and seems to me you could buy new hinges and
use the old ones back to back as templates to drill the new holes. No idea
how many hours on the plane, but if things are loosening up, new hinges may
just be a good idea. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Santa Fe, NM
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "grabo172" <grabo172@sc.rr.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:39 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Aileron Hinges
>
> So I got the plans for my Firestar that I bought used. While looking
> through them I noticed the aileron assembly section mentioned that they
> fold down against the wing bottom when folding the wings... as I was
> thinking about it I thought "my ailerons don't fold down that far?"
>
> Went and checked the plans against my plane and it appears my hinges are
> installed upside down. The pin bump is on the top, when the plans show it
> being toward the bottom... that explains why they don't fold correctly.
>
> So my question is... are the holes drilled in the hinges even on both
> sides so all I have to do is drill out the rivets and flip the hinges
> over?
>
> I didn't look close when I went to check which way they were, and I just
> thought that I'd ask if anyone know off hand...
>
> Secondly, do you think that may be why I've had to replace a bunch of
> rivets already (I've had the plane for 4 months and have replaced about 15
> or so of the hinge rivets)
>
> Thanks!
>
> --------
> -Erik Grabowski
> Kolb Firestar N197BG
> CFI/CFII
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78743#78743
>
>
>
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Hinges |
| how many hours on the plane, but if things are loosening up, new
hinges may
| just be a good idea. Lar.
Might be a good idea to determine why rivets are loosening on a
relatively new airplane licensed this year. That is not a normal
situation.
Never had to replace a hinge because of lose rivets.
Second thought, because the hinges are reversed, could it be possible
the hinge rivet line was stressed when attempts to fold the wings were
attempted?
john h
mkIII
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Hinges |
John Hauck wrote:
>
> Second thought, because the hinges are reversed, could it be possible
> the hinge rivet line was stressed when attempts to fold the wings were
> attempted?
>
> john h
> mkIII
That was my thought... I think since they are reversed there may be stresses that
the hinges weren't designed for, pulling on the rivets.
Good Idea to used the old hinges for templates... that's exactly what I'll do...
I don't know why I don't think of these things myself [Embarassed] just loosing
my mind in my old 33 years I guess... :D
--------
-Erik Grabowski
Kolb Firestar N197BG
CFI/CFII
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78757#78757
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re:The pro &con of D.T. D, was dool L E vador K bull |
Well, E-gene, this thread, DWT, previously that turned into a towing
hawser, has had several lives on at least two UL listservs. A short
while ago I thought surely we were almost about to dig up The Dreaded
Downwind Turn, but perhaps fortunately, many of the Old Hands either
didn't take up the cudgel, or were too disenchanted by the wounds
visited upon then in The Old Days.
Basically, there are two camps, both seemingly correct, and both with
equal vociferosity. In a nut shell, one faction believes that in a
Down Wind Turn you will most certainly Fall Outa The Sky if your
airspeed is at or very near to stalling. The other POH-thumpers
merely say Hog Wash, often declaiming The Moving Airmass Dogma, aka
"boat in moving water" doctrine.
Personally, I "learned" to fly before I'd ever heard of this Dreaded
Phantasmagoria, and consequently flew with the What You Don't Know
Won't Hurt You philosophy. But here's a way out of doing the Downwind
Turn, patterned after J.Edgar Hoover's dictum of No Left Turns after
his driver made a left turn and had an accident...just make a
straight in, or at worst, enter from base leg.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
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