---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/02/06: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:11 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd) 2. 04:17 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd) 3. 04:31 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd) 4. 04:32 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Dennis Souder) 5. 04:37 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd) 6. 04:45 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (pat ladd) 7. 04:48 AM - Re: carburetor ice question (pat ladd) 8. 05:02 AM - Re: Ultrastar (John Jung) 9. 05:33 AM - Re: Rudder Cables (Eugene Zimmerman) 10. 05:47 AM - Re: Ultrastar (DANIEL WALTER) 11. 05:56 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Richard Pike) 12. 06:36 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (John Hauck) 13. 06:46 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Richard Girard) 14. 07:11 AM - Re: Rudder Cables (Richard Girard) 15. 07:36 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Dana Hague) 16. 07:37 AM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (John Hauck) 17. 12:19 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash (Bob Noyer) 18. 12:25 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash (Richard Pike) 19. 01:11 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Ed Chmielewski) 20. 02:35 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Bob Noyer) 21. 03:07 PM - NE crash (Richard Girard) 22. 03:28 PM - Re: carburetor ice question (Arksey@aol.com) 23. 03:32 PM - Re: NE crash (Richard Girard) 24. 03:36 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Larry Bourne) 25. 03:39 PM - Re: NE crash (John Hauck) 26. 05:22 PM - Re:The pro &con of D.T. D, was dool L E vador K bull (Eugene Zimmerman) 27. 05:29 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (George Thompson) 28. 05:39 PM - Aileron Hinges (grabo172) 29. 05:59 PM - Re: Dual Elevator Cables (Larry Bourne) 30. 06:01 PM - Re: Aileron Hinges (Larry Bourne) 31. 06:35 PM - Re: Aileron Hinges (John Hauck) 32. 07:02 PM - Re: Aileron Hinges (grabo172) 33. 07:37 PM - Re: Re:The pro &con of D.T. D, was dool L E vador K bull (Bob Noyer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:35 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" Hope it stays that way.>> Hi Steve, Good luck to you. Perhaps you have more open space to fall into without hurting someone than we have.. We had that freedom in the early days when people began to add little engines to hang gliders. Then several bad accidents occurred and it was either get organised or get banned completely. Cheers Pat do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:48 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" Hope it stays that way.>> Hi Steve, Just an afterthought. perhaps that is why everyone seems so exercised about fitting dual cables. If I had a design that had never been subjected to a proper engineering analysis I would have dual cables everywhere. I dont mind sticking my neck out, I built and used an aqualung from a Practical Mechanics article the thought of which scares me to death now, but a flying machine?....... Cheers Pat do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:13 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables However they said it is way down the line on the list of planes to be looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any word on the cause.>> Hi George, that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have such a backlog of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky like autumn leaves. Cheers Pat do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:12 AM PST US From: "Dennis Souder" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables John, The trim tab worked well, if installed correctly. A couple builders as I recall switched the spring and the cable attachments and this could result in flutter of the trim tab, not having enough tension on the spring could also create problems. There were some other misc considerations too, appearance and ease of elevator folding, I think. So as I recall the change was made to the simpler system on the MK3 for these reasons. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cooley Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:05 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Dennis S., Is there a reason that the MK 3 trim system wasn't set-up similar to the Twinstar MK II? I know a lot of other planes use a cockpit adjustable trim tab on the elevator surface to control trim. Another plus, unless I'm thinking wrong, is that if something did happen to the up elevator cable or other control mechanism, you can still control pitch with a cockpit adjustable trim system on the elevator. Later, John Cooley Do not archive John, I don't think that even you could break an elevator cable. If you could pull hard enough to exert the necessary force to break the cable, the cable would stretch enough so you would run out of travel. With a straight run like the Mark-III has for the elevator, there is little to fatigue it. The flight loads alone would not be sufficient to fatigue it. Running over a pulley adds more stress than anything else, but there are no pulleys in the M3 elevator system. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Hi Gang: Anybody know of a yahoo breaking a 3/32" aircraft cable on an elevator on a mkIII? That cable has a breaking strength of 920 lbs. If you double your 3/32" cable you will end up with about 1840 lbs. If you go to a single 1/8" cable you will have to exert 1700 lbs to break that cable. Tell me, please. How the hell is anyone going to exert that much load on that little bitty elevator??? Another note. Don't think Homer Kolb would have put us in jeopardy by using a cable that was not strong enough to do the job. I am not a mathematician or an engineer, so I don't know how much load is possible to apply to the elevator. I have an idea though, that those little 5/16" aluminum tubes in the elevator are going to bend and break long before one overloads the cable. Since I have a habit of breaking Homer's airplanes, I used a single 1/8" cable on my up elevator. Of note is my pitch trim system cable which is 1/16" cable. 1/16" cable has a breaking strength of 480 lbs. That is what we used for tail wire bracing on the Ultrastar. Normally, my nose up trim is carrying the up elevator flight load. That tiny cable has been doing all that work for more than 2500 hours without as much of a whine. But........if it makes you feel better, make'em redundant. Let's see. The Piper Cubs and other small Piper aircraft all use 1/8" elevator cable. Taylorcraft, same same. Wonder why the FAA did not make them go redundant? Take care, john h mkIII -- -- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:53 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables How many innocent bystanders/uninvolved third parties have been taken out by a legal ultralight? Some? A few? None? Hi Richard, Passengers? Pat do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:42 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables The EAA did an excellent job of lobbying the CAA/FAA to allow builders to be creative, >> Hi Dave, There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like an `Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way, or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel flow. Cheers Pat do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:40 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: carburetor ice question engine quit when I throttled back to land. >> Hi, perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but I think that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage. Cheers Pat do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:54 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Ultrastar From: "John Jung" Dana, The Ultrastar with an enclosed trailer for $3000 sounds like a very good deal. But that assumes that you want an Ultrastar. The Ultrastar is know as an excellent flying airplane, like all Kolbs. It has a lower thrust line then the others which is desireable. But, IMO, the thrust line and the price are the only things better, and may not be enough reason to buy one. Ultrastars were likely welded by the builders and not by Kolb. They have no factory support. They are realatively easily damaged on the ground, and not easy to repair. They also may lack a structural improvement in the wings. I suggest that you consider buying it, selling the Ultrastar, and buying a Firefly to keep in the trailer. -------- John Jung Firestar II N6163J Surprise, AZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78615#78615 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:54 AM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rudder Cables Ed / All, In retrospect my statement about stainless cable being inadequate for our Kolb aircraft applications appears to be an exaggerated overstatement. I have not been able to find the specific data to confirm my comment and even if I had it would probably have been outdated by now anyway. If your stainless cable is rated aircraft cable it is most likely is more than adequate for our use. However that said, it is true that aircraft cable is made in several different types designed to meet various specific criteria. I apologize to you / all, for making what appears to me now to be an exaggerated stereotypical statement about stainless steel cable for our Kolb planes. Eugene Zimmerman On Dec 2, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Edward Bonsell wrote: > Cables may not look bad at first sight. If you remove the cable and > bend it where it went around the pulley, some threads may break > from bending it the opposite way. Rubbing a piece of tissue on the > cable will find broken threads. It rips off on the sharp ends. > Watch your fingers the threads are sharp. > > Also, Eugene said: > >To the best of my knowledge both planes had the cables that were > >supplied with the kits from kolb. I don't recall if they were > >stainless or galvanized but stainless definitely is inferior and > >should be avoided for this application IMHO. > > Is this true? I got stainless cable to replace mine. Maybe I should > have gotten the Galvanized cable? > > Ed > > ============================================================ _- > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List_- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:48 AM PST US From: "DANIEL WALTER" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ultrastar Dana, Most people I have talked to loved their Ultrastars, I love mine. It's difficult to build a US at 254# although I have never weighed mine, W&B done by hanging from balance point. Folding can be done by one person, but not something you would want to do every time, unless absolutely necessary. I found the US can handle the same wind as a Quicksilver sport single with ailerons. I think that the US can be one of the lowest cost best planes out there. Do Not Archive Dan Walter Ultrastar Palmyra, PA. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Hague" Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 1:08 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Ultrastar > > Hi all, > > I'm new to this list. I have an opportunity to buy an Ultrastar > Will it be a "true legal" 103 machine (<254#)? > Would it still make weight if the engine was replaced, say, with a 447? > > How long does it take to fold / unfold the wings with one person? > > What kind of winds can it handle (with an experienced pilot)? ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:51 AM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Legal ultralights do not carry passengers. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: pat ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables How many innocent bystanders/uninvolved third parties have been taken out by a legal ultralight? Some? A few? None? Hi Richard, Passengers? Pat do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:01 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Then several bad accidents occurred and it was either get organised or get banned completely. Cheers Pat Patrick: Did over regulation, on your side of the pond, prevent further "bad accidents"? john h mkIII hauck's holler, alabama ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:17 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Pat, Well I know of one innocent bystander who was killed by a part 103 hang glider. It happened at Dog Mtn. in Washington state in the late 80's. She was watching a high wind launch when one wingman didn't let go of the wire, the glider did a ground loop and knocked her head first into a rock. Right now the FAA is seeking the maximum penalty, 10 years in prison and a $10,000 fine, against an ultralight pilot in Nebraska who crashed his Quicksilver into a storage building along side a football field while carrying a passenger, after dark, doing low level aerobatics, while a football game was in progress. It seems like it wouldn't be possible to pack so much stupid into a single crash, but this fool managed it. Gotta be a world record (Kudos to "Our Man Flint"). Rick On 12/2/06, Richard Pike wrote: > > Legal ultralights do not carry passengers. > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* pat ladd > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:37 AM > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables > > How many innocent bystanders/uninvolved third parties have been taken out > by a legal ultralight? Some? A few? None? > Hi Richard, > > Passengers? > > Pat > > do not archive > > * > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > * > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:48 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rudder Cables Gene, As it happens, I was buying cable last night from that great aviation supplier, McMaster Carr (www.mcmaster.com). The have an excellent set of drawings of cable types and a spec table for each type. Look under wire rope. As for this worry about control cables beaking, consider this. Hang gliders use this same cable as primary structure. My 1981 Sensor 510 has stainless steel, 3/32" rigging. I inspect it every time I set it up and I end every flight with a wing over just because. Now that I live in Kansas, I'll have to give up the wing over unless it's a REALLY GOOD day. :-) Rick On 12/2/06, Eugene Zimmerman wrote: > > > Ed / All, > > In retrospect my statement about stainless cable being inadequate for > our Kolb aircraft applications appears to be an exaggerated > overstatement. > > I have not been able to find the specific data to confirm my comment > and even if I had it would probably have been outdated by now anyway. > > If your stainless cable is rated "aircraft cable" it is most likely > is more than adequate for our use. However that said, it is true > that "aircraft cable" is made in several different types designed to > meet various specific criteria. > > I apologize to you / all, for making what appears to me now to be an > exaggerated stereotypical statement about stainless steel cable for > our Kolb planes. > > Eugene Zimmerman > > > On Dec 2, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Edward Bonsell wrote: > > > Cables may not look bad at first sight. If you remove the cable and > > bend it where it went around the pulley, some threads may break > > from bending it the opposite way. Rubbing a piece of tissue on the > > cable will find broken threads. It rips off on the sharp ends. > > Watch your fingers the threads are sharp. > > > > Also, Eugene said: > > >To the best of my knowledge both planes had the cables that were > > >supplied with the kits from kolb. I don't recall if they were > > >stainless or galvanized but stainless definitely is inferior and > > >should be avoided for this application IMHO. > > > > Is this true? I got stainless cable to replace mine. Maybe I should > > have gotten the Galvanized cable? > > > > Ed > > > > ============================================================ _- > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List_- > > =========================================================== > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:46 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables At 09:45 AM 12/2/2006, Richard Girard wrote: >Right now the FAA is seeking the maximum penalty, 10 years in prison and a >$10,000 fine, against an ultralight pilot in Nebraska who crashed his >Quicksilver into a storage building along side a football field while >carrying a passenger, after dark, doing low level aerobatics, while a >football game was in progress... Typically the FAA doesn't investigate ultralight crashes at all, fatal or not... once they determine it was a legal ultralight, they leave it up to local law enforcement to conduct any investigation. In the Nebraska crash, if it's the one I recall, although it looked like a 2 seater in the TV news film, I didn't think he was carrying a passenger. Either way, as soon as there are two seats, or it's otherwise blatantly "fat", unless the pilot can make a convincing case that it was being legally operated under a training exemption, they throw the book at him, considering it not an ultralight but an unregistered, uninspected aircraft, probably unlicensed pilot, no BFR, low flying (unlike part 103, the 500' rule applies if they determine it's an "aircraft" and not a "vehicle", even if unregistered), low aerobatics, careless and reckless operation, etc. I don't envy that pilot... but he's an idiot, deserves whatever he's got coming. -Dana -- -- The family that shoots together..... shouldn't be messed with! ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:22 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables prison and a | $10,000 fine, against an ultralight pilot in Nebraska who crashed his | Quicksilver into a storage building along side a football field while | carrying a passenger, after dark, doing low level aerobatics, while a | football game was in progress. | | Rick Rick G: Is this the accident you are referring to? http://urlsnip.com/882618 john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:27 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash Typical newspaper reporting: "A single seat airplane.......saw the plane hover.....engine had stalled....two people taken to the hospital...." regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:53 PM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash Probably hit one of them air pockets... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Noyer" Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables aka NE crash > > Typical newspaper reporting: "A single seat airplane.......saw the > plane hover.....engine had stalled....two people taken to the > hospital...." > regards, > Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb > http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ > > do not archive > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:23 PM PST US From: "Ed Chmielewski" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables ----- Original Message ----- From: pat ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Hi Pat, "If I had a design that had never been subjected to a proper engineering analysis I would have dual cables everywhere." I wasn't aware the Kolb series had never had 'proper engineering analysis' as you infer. It's my understanding that Kolbs are all well-designed and engineered. Adding cables for no better reason than appeasing one's insecurity doesn't seem a sound design principle. Hell, why stop at two? Three, seven, keep going until the boom is stuffed. I've not seen a statement anywhere on this list to date that convinces me of a need for dual cables anywhere on a Kolb. ************************************************************************* ******************* George: "However they said it is way down the line on the list of planes to be looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any word on the cause." Hi George, "that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have such a backlog of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky like autumn leaves." The backlog is due more to understaffing than 'planes falling out of the sky'. No one's immune to aircraft accidents, and I believe you folks have had your fair share. Don't forget the far greater number of operations here, too. ************************************************************************* ******************** "There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like an `Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way, or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel flow." No one here adopts an attitude of 'build what you like provided the C of G is in the right place'. Were that the case, how would one know whether the CG is off? Certainly not the haphazard shadetree designer providing the data. Flying wires and engines don't know from bureaucratic rules. Regulations don't make an aircraft safe. Design and the operator do. ************************************************************************* *********************** " perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but I think that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage." If that were so, no one would ever have a problem with carb ice. You obviously have never experienced it. ************************************************************************* ***************** These posts seem to reflect an anti-US attitude, call into question the design standards of the Kolb series, and demonstrate a general lack of knowledge about aircraft design and operation, at least as it applies in the US. (Or, it could be me and the approach of winter here in Michigan.) At any rate, we wouldn't be having this discussion were it not for the many talented ultralight pioneers like Homer Kolb and others, both here and abroad. I for one would appreciate less 'conjecture' and more pure information without the bias and misinformation. Ed in JXN MkII/503 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:22 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables I used a pair of 1/16 in. cables to "elevate" my FireFly for CG measurement, although a single would have been OK. Total drop 2" This thread has become a cable, or vv? regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:01 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Kolb-List: NE crash http://urlsnip.com/882618 Hard to believe two morons would do nearly the same thing, but the description is all wrong compared to the video. It looked like he was coming out of a dive to buzz the field and clipped the building just below the top (missed it by that much!) about four to six feet inboard of the left wingtip. The aircraft was spun around and inverted when it went down between scrambling spectators, the building and a chain link fence. The pilot was okay, but his passenger had a broken arm. I'll try to get a copy of the video and post it. Rick -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:38 PM PST US From: Arksey@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: carburetor ice question Hi Jimmy, Yes we got to Florida Wed. evening before Thanksgiving, hauled the Firestar down here in a enclosed trailer. hauled it with my olds van, worked ok. The trailer was built for a firestar but with a 2 blade prop so i had to remove the 3 blade prop to get it in the trailer....trailer worked fine and pulled good, but when i hit uneven pavement it would rock back and forth like a baby buggy....I intend to put shocks on it to stop that action...It was a bit of work to haul but if the flying down here this winter is enjoyable I will do it again... Regard the carburetor ice, I am sure that is what the problem was and I intend to look into carb heat, it was ideal conditions for it and as I fly whenever i can I guess i better have carb heat to take care of it....I would not like to be over hostile country and have that happen. I sure have had fun flying the plane this last summer and am very happy with it. I am near Sebring Florida and you should think about coming down for the sport category exp at the sebring airport the 1st part of Jan. and I will show you around the area and for sure try and make Sun and Fun...I hope to be there with the plane and camp in the ultra light section... I will be back to flying down here in a week or so...been fishing some already. Jim Swan Firestar ll Michigan do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:02 PM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NE crash After a little poking around I found another report on this crash that describes it more like what's in the video. The links to the video have apparently expired. Rick On 12/2/06, Richard Girard wrote: > > > http://urlsnip.com/882618 > > Hard to believe two morons would do nearly the same thing, but the > description is all wrong compared to the video. It looked like he was coming > out of a dive to buzz the field and clipped the building just below the top > (missed it by that much!) about four to six feet inboard of the left > wingtip. The aircraft was spun around and inverted when it went down between > scrambling spectators, the building and a chain link fence. The pilot was > okay, but his passenger had a broken arm. > I'll try to get a copy of the video and post it. > > Rick > > -- > Rick Girard > "Ya'll drop on in" > takes on a whole new meaning > when you live at the airport. > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:20 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Ed, the "need" is questionable, obviously, and that has been well addressed here. Addressing my insecurity is also questionable, but sure makes me feel better. There are obviously many on the List who disagree with me, and also some who do agree. It's well established that the Kolb's are well engineered planes, which is one of several reasons I bought my kit in the 1st place. When taking my flying lessons for my private pilot's license in Port Angeles, WA, back in '95, my instructor, Roger Andersen, required me to learn to fly the plane (Cessna 172) with trim only, since, as I recall he said, "if something happens to the up elevator system, you're in bad trouble, and this gives you a way to fly the plane." A couple of BFR's later, my check instructor had me fly the plane (again, a 172) onto short final with only the elevator trim, before ending the exercise. It worked well - the landing would have been a good one - and I was suitably impressed. I believe it was around that time that I was assembling my Mk III and got to looking at the elevator cable & attachment to the elevator tang. "Hmmm," I thought, "what if that thing decided to pop, for whatever reason ??" The chances are vanishingly small, but the picture in my mind of watching the ground come up while I could do nothing didn't please me much, when an alternative is so simple. In my youth I rode motorcycles for several years and several times saw the brake and clutch cables break. So. I ran a completely separate cable to the elevator tang, and connected it to the trim mechanism. I feel much more secure. If someone doesn't agree with me, fine. Don't use it. But......I WILL use it. Don't bash me for watching out for my precious ass. Lar. Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Chmielewski To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables ----- Original Message ----- From: pat ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Hi Pat, "If I had a design that had never been subjected to a proper engineering analysis I would have dual cables everywhere." I wasn't aware the Kolb series had never had 'proper engineering analysis' as you infer. It's my understanding that Kolbs are all well-designed and engineered. Adding cables for no better reason than appeasing one's insecurity doesn't seem a sound design principle. Hell, why stop at two? Three, seven, keep going until the boom is stuffed. I've not seen a statement anywhere on this list to date that convinces me of a need for dual cables anywhere on a Kolb. ************************************************************************* ******************* George: "However they said it is way down the line on the list of planes to be looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any word on the cause." Hi George, "that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have such a backlog of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky like autumn leaves." The backlog is due more to understaffing than 'planes falling out of the sky'. No one's immune to aircraft accidents, and I believe you folks have had your fair share. Don't forget the far greater number of operations here, too. ************************************************************************* ******************** "There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like an `Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way, or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel flow." No one here adopts an attitude of 'build what you like provided the C of G is in the right place'. Were that the case, how would one know whether the CG is off? Certainly not the haphazard shadetree designer providing the data. Flying wires and engines don't know from bureaucratic rules. Regulations don't make an aircraft safe. Design and the operator do. ************************************************************************* *********************** " perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but I think that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage." If that were so, no one would ever have a problem with carb ice. You obviously have never experienced it. ************************************************************************* ***************** These posts seem to reflect an anti-US attitude, call into question the design standards of the Kolb series, and demonstrate a general lack of knowledge about aircraft design and operation, at least as it applies in the US. (Or, it could be me and the approach of winter here in Michigan.) At any rate, we wouldn't be having this discussion were it not for the many talented ultralight pioneers like Homer Kolb and others, both here and abroad. I for one would appreciate less 'conjecture' and more pure information without the bias and misinformation. Ed in JXN MkII/503 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:36 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: NE crash | description is all wrong compared to the video. | | Rick Rick: Sure is.............and at the same town, Lincoln, Nebraska, and at the same football stadium, Blue Hill. ;-) Oh yea, and on the same date. Here are a buncha articles on the crash. I am out the door for cat fish, shrimp, and oysters, in Wetumpka, Alabama. Don't have time to read them now. http://www.topix.net/city/blue-hill-ne/page2 Take care, john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:05 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Kolb-List: Re:The pro &con of D.T. D, was dool L E vador K bull Hey Bob, Could you please tell just a little bit about the pros and cons of the D ownwind T urn D emon. Please, just TINY LITTLE bitty now, ya hear? On Dec 2, 2006, at 5:34 PM, Bob Noyer wrote: > This thread has become a cable, or vv? do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:38 PM PST US From: "George Thompson" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Way to go Larry, I'm with you. We can never be too safe in our hobby. I don't think you are overly safety conscious. We went to Dave's memorial today. It was one of the hardest things that I have ever done. But I got thu the eulogize without breaking down and it was an absolutely beautiful program. George Thompson Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Bourne To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Ed, the "need" is questionable, obviously, and that has been well addressed here. Addressing my insecurity is also questionable, but sure makes me feel better. There are obviously many on the List who disagree with me, and also some who do agree. It's well established that the Kolb's are well engineered planes, which is one of several reasons I bought my kit in the 1st place. When taking my flying lessons for my private pilot's license in Port Angeles, WA, back in '95, my instructor, Roger Andersen, required me to learn to fly the plane (Cessna 172) with trim only, since, as I recall he said, "if something happens to the up elevator system, you're in bad trouble, and this gives you a way to fly the plane." A couple of BFR's later, my check instructor had me fly the plane (again, a 172) onto short final with only the elevator trim, before ending the exercise. It worked well - the landing would have been a good one - and I was suitably impressed. I believe it was around that time that I was assembling my Mk III and got to looking at the elevator cable & attachment to the elevator tang. "Hmmm," I thought, "what if that thing decided to pop, for whatever reason ??" The chances are vanishingly small, but the picture in my mind of watching the ground come up while I could do nothing didn't please me much, when an alternative is so simple. In my youth I rode motorcycles for several years and several times saw the brake and clutch cables break. So. I ran a completely separate cable to the elevator tang, and connected it to the trim mechanism. I feel much more secure. If someone doesn't agree with me, fine. Don't use it. But......I WILL use it. Don't bash me for watching out for my precious ass. Lar. Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Chmielewski To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables ----- Original Message ----- From: pat ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Hi Pat, "If I had a design that had never been subjected to a proper engineering analysis I would have dual cables everywhere." I wasn't aware the Kolb series had never had 'proper engineering analysis' as you infer. It's my understanding that Kolbs are all well-designed and engineered. Adding cables for no better reason than appeasing one's insecurity doesn't seem a sound design principle. Hell, why stop at two? Three, seven, keep going until the boom is stuffed. I've not seen a statement anywhere on this list to date that convinces me of a need for dual cables anywhere on a Kolb. ************************************************************************* ******************* George: "However they said it is way down the line on the list of planes to be looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any word on the cause." Hi George, "that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have such a backlog of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky like autumn leaves." The backlog is due more to understaffing than 'planes falling out of the sky'. No one's immune to aircraft accidents, and I believe you folks have had your fair share. Don't forget the far greater number of operations here, too. ************************************************************************* ******************** "There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like an `Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way, or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel flow." No one here adopts an attitude of 'build what you like provided the C of G is in the right place'. Were that the case, how would one know whether the CG is off? Certainly not the haphazard shadetree designer providing the data. Flying wires and engines don't know from bureaucratic rules. Regulations don't make an aircraft safe. Design and the operator do. ************************************************************************* *********************** " perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but I think that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage." If that were so, no one would ever have a problem with carb ice. You obviously have never experienced it. ************************************************************************* ***************** These posts seem to reflect an anti-US attitude, call into question the design standards of the Kolb series, and demonstrate a general lack of knowledge about aircraft design and operation, at least as it applies in the US. (Or, it could be me and the approach of winter here in Michigan.) At any rate, we wouldn't be having this discussion were it not for the many talented ultralight pioneers like Homer Kolb and others, both here and abroad. I for one would appreciate less 'conjecture' and more pure information without the bias and misinformation. Ed in JXN MkII/503 href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 12/2/2006 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:31 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Aileron Hinges From: "grabo172" So I got the plans for my Firestar that I bought used. While looking through them I noticed the aileron assembly section mentioned that they fold down against the wing bottom when folding the wings... as I was thinking about it I thought "my ailerons don't fold down that far?" Went and checked the plans against my plane and it appears my hinges are installed upside down. The pin bump is on the top, when the plans show it being toward the bottom... that explains why they don't fold correctly. So my question is... are the holes drilled in the hinges even on both sides so all I have to do is drill out the rivets and flip the hinges over? I didn't look close when I went to check which way they were, and I just thought that I'd ask if anyone know off hand... Secondly, do you think that may be why I've had to replace a bunch of rivets already (I've had the plane for 4 months and have replaced about 15 or so of the hinge rivets) Thanks! -------- -Erik Grabowski Kolb Firestar N197BG CFI/CFII Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78743#78743 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:06 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Thanks, George, and good on you. I'd have been snuffling like a baby. Lar. Do not Archive. Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George Thompson To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Way to go Larry, I'm with you. We can never be too safe in our hobby. I don't think you are overly safety conscious. We went to Dave's memorial today. It was one of the hardest things that I have ever done. But I got thu the eulogize without breaking down and it was an absolutely beautiful program. George Thompson Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Bourne To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Ed, the "need" is questionable, obviously, and that has been well addressed here. Addressing my insecurity is also questionable, but sure makes me feel better. There are obviously many on the List who disagree with me, and also some who do agree. It's well established that the Kolb's are well engineered planes, which is one of several reasons I bought my kit in the 1st place. When taking my flying lessons for my private pilot's license in Port Angeles, WA, back in '95, my instructor, Roger Andersen, required me to learn to fly the plane (Cessna 172) with trim only, since, as I recall he said, "if something happens to the up elevator system, you're in bad trouble, and this gives you a way to fly the plane." A couple of BFR's later, my check instructor had me fly the plane (again, a 172) onto short final with only the elevator trim, before ending the exercise. It worked well - the landing would have been a good one - and I was suitably impressed. I believe it was around that time that I was assembling my Mk III and got to looking at the elevator cable & attachment to the elevator tang. "Hmmm," I thought, "what if that thing decided to pop, for whatever reason ??" The chances are vanishingly small, but the picture in my mind of watching the ground come up while I could do nothing didn't please me much, when an alternative is so simple. In my youth I rode motorcycles for several years and several times saw the brake and clutch cables break. So. I ran a completely separate cable to the elevator tang, and connected it to the trim mechanism. I feel much more secure. If someone doesn't agree with me, fine. Don't use it. But......I WILL use it. Don't bash me for watching out for my precious ass. Lar. Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Chmielewski To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables ----- Original Message ----- From: pat ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Dual Elevator Cables Hi Pat, "If I had a design that had never been subjected to a proper engineering analysis I would have dual cables everywhere." I wasn't aware the Kolb series had never had 'proper engineering analysis' as you infer. It's my understanding that Kolbs are all well-designed and engineered. Adding cables for no better reason than appeasing one's insecurity doesn't seem a sound design principle. Hell, why stop at two? Three, seven, keep going until the boom is stuffed. I've not seen a statement anywhere on this list to date that convinces me of a need for dual cables anywhere on a Kolb. ************************************************************************* ******************* George: "However they said it is way down the line on the list of planes to be looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any word on the cause." Hi George, "that is what I would have expected. Bit scary that they have such a backlog of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky like autumn leaves." The backlog is due more to understaffing than 'planes falling out of the sky'. No one's immune to aircraft accidents, and I believe you folks have had your fair share. Don't forget the far greater number of operations here, too. ************************************************************************* ******************** "There are murmurings hers about a move towards something like an `Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs are too tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G is in the right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way, or your engine stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel flow." No one here adopts an attitude of 'build what you like provided the C of G is in the right place'. Were that the case, how would one know whether the CG is off? Certainly not the haphazard shadetree designer providing the data. Flying wires and engines don't know from bureaucratic rules. Regulations don't make an aircraft safe. Design and the operator do. ************************************************************************* *********************** " perhaps someone with more experience will kick in on this but I think that OPENING the throttle will often clear an ice blockage." If that were so, no one would ever have a problem with carb ice. You obviously have never experienced it. ************************************************************************* ***************** These posts seem to reflect an anti-US attitude, call into question the design standards of the Kolb series, and demonstrate a general lack of knowledge about aircraft design and operation, at least as it applies in the US. (Or, it could be me and the approach of winter here in Michigan.) At any rate, we wouldn't be having this discussion were it not for the many talented ultralight pioneers like Homer Kolb and others, both here and abroad. I for one would appreciate less 'conjecture' and more pure information without the bias and misinformation. Ed in JXN MkII/503 href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: 12/2/2006 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:41 PM PST US From: "Larry Bourne" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Aileron Hinges I would be seriously amazed if you could flip them and have the holes line up. Hinges are inexpensive, and seems to me you could buy new hinges and use the old ones back to back as templates to drill the new holes. No idea how many hours on the plane, but if things are loosening up, new hinges may just be a good idea. Lar. Larry Bourne Santa Fe, NM www.gogittum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "grabo172" Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:39 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Aileron Hinges > > So I got the plans for my Firestar that I bought used. While looking > through them I noticed the aileron assembly section mentioned that they > fold down against the wing bottom when folding the wings... as I was > thinking about it I thought "my ailerons don't fold down that far?" > > Went and checked the plans against my plane and it appears my hinges are > installed upside down. The pin bump is on the top, when the plans show it > being toward the bottom... that explains why they don't fold correctly. > > So my question is... are the holes drilled in the hinges even on both > sides so all I have to do is drill out the rivets and flip the hinges > over? > > I didn't look close when I went to check which way they were, and I just > thought that I'd ask if anyone know off hand... > > Secondly, do you think that may be why I've had to replace a bunch of > rivets already (I've had the plane for 4 months and have replaced about 15 > or so of the hinge rivets) > > Thanks! > > -------- > -Erik Grabowski > Kolb Firestar N197BG > CFI/CFII > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78743#78743 > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:19 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Aileron Hinges | how many hours on the plane, but if things are loosening up, new hinges may | just be a good idea. Lar. Might be a good idea to determine why rivets are loosening on a relatively new airplane licensed this year. That is not a normal situation. Never had to replace a hinge because of lose rivets. Second thought, because the hinges are reversed, could it be possible the hinge rivet line was stressed when attempts to fold the wings were attempted? john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:01 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron Hinges From: "grabo172" John Hauck wrote: > > Second thought, because the hinges are reversed, could it be possible > the hinge rivet line was stressed when attempts to fold the wings were > attempted? > > john h > mkIII That was my thought... I think since they are reversed there may be stresses that the hinges weren't designed for, pulling on the rivets. Good Idea to used the old hinges for templates... that's exactly what I'll do... I don't know why I don't think of these things myself [Embarassed] just loosing my mind in my old 33 years I guess... :D -------- -Erik Grabowski Kolb Firestar N197BG CFI/CFII Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78757#78757 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:34 PM PST US From: Bob Noyer Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re:The pro &con of D.T. D, was dool L E vador K bull Well, E-gene, this thread, DWT, previously that turned into a towing hawser, has had several lives on at least two UL listservs. A short while ago I thought surely we were almost about to dig up The Dreaded Downwind Turn, but perhaps fortunately, many of the Old Hands either didn't take up the cudgel, or were too disenchanted by the wounds visited upon then in The Old Days. Basically, there are two camps, both seemingly correct, and both with equal vociferosity. In a nut shell, one faction believes that in a Down Wind Turn you will most certainly Fall Outa The Sky if your airspeed is at or very near to stalling. The other POH-thumpers merely say Hog Wash, often declaiming The Moving Airmass Dogma, aka "boat in moving water" doctrine. Personally, I "learned" to fly before I'd ever heard of this Dreaded Phantasmagoria, and consequently flew with the What You Don't Know Won't Hurt You philosophy. But here's a way out of doing the Downwind Turn, patterned after J.Edgar Hoover's dictum of No Left Turns after his driver made a left turn and had an accident...just make a straight in, or at worst, enter from base leg. regards, Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/ do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.