Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:44 AM - Red Bull air race (Icrashrc@aol.com)
2. 04:15 AM - Re: HKS engine install (Paul Petty)
3. 05:52 AM - Eagle Lake Hanger Update (N27SB@aol.com)
4. 06:12 AM - Re: HKS engine install (Thom Riddle)
5. 06:22 AM - Re: Eagle Lake Hanger Update (Larry Bourne)
6. 06:24 AM - Re: Red Bull air race (Larry Bourne)
7. 06:48 AM - Portable hangar? (John H Murphy)
8. 07:07 AM - Re: Re: HKS engine install (Richard Girard)
9. 07:18 AM - Re: HKS engine install (Richard Girard)
10. 07:30 AM - HKS Kitplanes Article and correct email address (Mike Welch)
11. 08:12 AM - Re: HKS Engine Report (JetPilot)
12. 08:28 AM - Re: Portable hangar? (Mike Welch)
13. 08:44 AM - Re: Portable hangar? (Ron)
14. 08:46 AM - Re: Portable hangar? (John H Murphy)
15. 09:50 AM - HKS Kitplanes Article... Here is the scanned document (JetPilot)
16. 09:51 AM - Re: HKS Kitplanes Article... Here is the scanned document (JetPilot)
17. 10:51 AM - Re: HKS engine install (John Hauck)
18. 11:03 AM - Re: Red Bull air race (John Hauck)
19. 11:11 AM - GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates (Jack B. Hart)
20. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: HKS engine install (John Hauck)
21. 03:21 PM - Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates (JetPilot)
22. 04:14 PM - Re: Red Bull air race (Larry Bourne)
23. 04:57 PM - Re: Red Bull air race/Monument Valley Kolb Flyin 2007 (John Hauck)
24. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates (Steven Green)
25. 06:06 PM - Re: Red Bull air race/Monument Valley Kolb Flyin 2007 (Larry Bourne)
26. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates (Dana Hague)
27. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates (Jack B. Hart)
28. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates (Dana Hague)
29. 08:30 PM - Brake report (R. Hankins)
30. 08:36 PM - Belatedly (Bob Noyer)
31. 10:52 PM - Re: Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates (possums)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Red Bull air race |
The dates for this years Red Bull air races are now online @ Red Bull Air
Race 2007 .
There is a race scheduled for Monument Valley on May 12. I'm not sure of the
date you folks had planned for the Kolb fly-in out there but thought I would
pass this on.
Scott
ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: HKS engine install |
The principle difference between the two engines oiling systems is that the Rotax
is a wet sump engine and the HKS is a dry sump i.e. Rotax pressure feeds oil
to the engine after which it drains into the sump where it is picked up by the
oil pump and the circulation begins again. The HKS has a second scavenging
pump that picks up the oil from the sump and sends it to the oil tank, hence "dry"
sump.
??????
Rick,
Rotax 912's/914's are dry sump engines. They have a 3qt remote tank that the oil
is returned to by crankcase pressure. Are you sure the HKS has a second oil
pump that "sends it to the oil tank"????
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Final assembly!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101352#101352
Message 3
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| Subject: | Eagle Lake Hanger Update |
To All,
I just saw the plans from my Builder for the new hanger. It will be 30 deep
by 50' wide with a 40' x 11' one piece Hydroswing door. I could be well into
construction by SnF. I hope my Firefly fits
:-)
steve do not archive
************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
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| Subject: | Re: HKS engine install |
... the Rotax is a wet sump engine...
Rick,
You must not be talking about the 912 series engines if you are talking
wet sump, though throughout this thread I thought the comparison was to
the 912 series not the 582. Maybe I misunderstood.
By the way, we installed an external oil thermostat on our 912UL last
winter to help warm up the engine faster and it works well, but still
have to cover the oil cooler inlet a bit to get the temps up to normal
in the winters here.
Thom in Buffalo
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Eagle Lake Hanger Update |
Dunno. You might hafta fold the wings......... :-)
Lar. Do not Archive.
On 3/18/07, N27SB@aol.com <N27SB@aol.com> wrote:
>
> To All,
>
> I just saw the plans from my Builder for the new hanger. It will be 30
> deep by 50' wide with a 40' x 11' one piece Hydroswing door. I could be well
> into construction by SnF. I hope my Firefly fits
>
> :-)
>
>
> steve do not archive
>
>
> ------------------------------
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at *AOL.com* <http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339>.
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Red Bull air race |
Thanks, Scott. We're scheduled for the following weekend.
Lar. Do not Archive.
On 3/18/07, Icrashrc@aol.com <Icrashrc@aol.com> wrote:
>
> The dates for this years Red Bull air races are now online @ Red Bull Air
> Race 2007 <http://redbullairrace.com/> .
> There is a race scheduled for Monument Valley on May 12. I'm not sure of
> the date you folks had planned for the Kolb fly-in out there but thought I
> would pass this on.
>
> Scott
> ill-EagleAviation.com
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
> **************************************
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Portable hangar? |
Any ideas for an inexpensive hangar that I could use? I hate the idea of spending
5 to 6 thousand on a trailer that sits at the airport. Are there any portable
hangars available at low cost out there?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101377#101377
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: HKS engine install |
Paul, Yes, it's much like the system that Harley Davidson uses. Consider
that an oil pump is only two gears in a close fitting housing with a hole on
either side of the gear set. When the gears turn oil is drawn in one hole
and pushed out the other. To add a second pump all that must be done is add
a second housing and gear set, but they can share the same drive shaft. See:
http://www.hpower-ltd.com/pdf%20files/IManual_Eng.pdf
page 11
Rick
On 3/18/07, Paul Petty <paulpetty@myway.com> wrote:
>
>
> The principle difference between the two engines oiling systems is that
> the Rotax is a wet sump engine and the HKS is a dry sump i.e. Rotax
> pressure feeds oil to the engine after which it drains into the sump where
> it is picked up by the oil pump and the circulation begins again. The HKS
> has a second scavenging pump that picks up the oil from the sump and sends
> it to the oil tank, hence "dry" sump.
> ??????
>
> Rick,
>
> Rotax 912's/914's are dry sump engines. They have a 3qt remote tank that
> the oil is returned to by crankcase pressure. Are you sure the HKS has a
> second oil pump that "sends it to the oil tank"????
>
> --------
> Paul Petty
> Kolbra #12
> Ms Dixie
> Final assembly!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101352#101352
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: HKS engine install |
Thom, My bad here, as the kids say. :-) I was having virtually the same
discussion at the local EAA meeting last night, only comparing Lycosaurus
type engines to the HKS system. I shouldn't be allowed near a computer after
midnight, my brain just doesn't function.
Harry's question as I understood it was about differences between cooling of
the HKS and the 912 since he is nearing overhaul or replacement of the 582.
Rick
On 3/18/07, Thom Riddle <thomriddle@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
> ... the Rotax is a wet sump engine...
>
> Rick,
>
> You must not be talking about the 912 series engines if you are talking
> wet sump, though throughout this thread I thought the comparison was to
> the 912 series not the 582. Maybe I misunderstood.
>
> By the way, we installed an external oil thermostat on our 912UL last
> winter to help warm up the engine faster and it works well, but still
> have to cover the oil cooler inlet a bit to get the temps up to normal
> in the winters here.
>
> Thom in Buffalo
> do not archive
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
Message 10
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| Subject: | HKS Kitplanes Article and correct email address |
Hello All,
I am having a helluva time getting this HKS engine report scanned and
posted. I have managed to scan it in TIF Files. Easy to read, nice and
clear. But my emails keep getting rejected by Matronics.
So then I scanned and sent them as JPG Files.........too large. Separated
the pages and sent one at a time. Still too large! Arrg!!!
Back to my original offer then. If anyone would like the complete
engine report, from Kitplane's latest edition, email me and I will send the
easy to read version (TIF Files) to you.
Also, for those of you that have already asked and found out my email
address was wrong...sorry.
THIS is the correct one.....mdnanwelch7@yahoo.com. Double
checking...double checking....yep, that's the right one!!
Mike in 90 degree SW Utah
_________________________________________________________________
Live Search Maps find all the local information you need, right when you
need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag2&FORM=MGAC01
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: HKS Engine Report |
Harry,
I would not fly ANY single engine airplane over water, especailly cold water.
Engines do quit, and much more often in experimental - ultralight aircraft.
Many times the engine is not the problem, it is fuel system, an error in installation,
etc. etc. It makes little difference why the engine quit if you end
up in 40 degree seawater that will kill you in a few minutes. I have a Rotax
912 here in Florida and will not fly over water. There have been a couple cases
in the last 2 years in our small club of Ultralights having to ditch in the
water here due to engine fialure.
As far as the air cooling of the HKS, there is nothing wrong with or unreliable
about air cooling. The most reliable certified aircraft engines are all air
cooled, that should not worry you.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101392#101392
Message 12
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| Subject: | Portable hangar? |
John,
Regarding an inexpensive hangar, are you allowed to put up a "fabric
type hangar?
Home Depot sells a 30 X 50 waterproof tarp for about $100 or less. You
could buy some 2"
PVC fittings and pipe, and construct a frame. Maybe run you $300.
Orient the tarp using the 50' for the width (8' up each side, 34' for
the roof)
I built one of these a few years ago, and the tarp lasted for 3 years.
Sorry if I'm describing a hill-billy hut, and you did say "inexpensive".
They probably sell this as a ready-made kit this size(motor home covers)
I don't know. They work pretty good.
I have other ideas, too, I just need to know your budget.
Mike in SW Utah yee-haw!!
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Portable hangar? |
---- John H Murphy <jhm9812@yahoo.com> wrote:
============
Any ideas for an inexpensive hangar that I could use? I hate the idea of spending
5 to 6 thousand on a trailer that sits at the airport. Are there any portable
hangars available at low cost out there?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101377#101377
I got curious about that and Google for it. there are lots to choose from. Just
enter Portable hangars into Google.
Ron (Arizona)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Portable hangar? |
Would gladly spend under $1000.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101400#101400
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| Subject: | HKS Kitplanes Article... Here is the scanned document |
Mike Sent me the the scanned kitplanes article on the HKS engine, and I was able
to make it small enough to post here, enjoy.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101411#101411
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hksreportpage1_158.jpg
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: HKS Kitplanes Article... Here is the scanned document |
PAGE 2
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101413#101413
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hksreportpage2_128.jpg
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: HKS engine install |
principle
| difference between the two engines oiling systems is that the Rotax
is a wet
| sump engine and the HKS is a dry sump i.e. Rotax pressure feeds oil
to the
| engine after which it drains into the sump where it is picked up by
the oil
| pump and the circulation begins again. The HKS has a second
scavenging pump
| that picks up the oil from the sump and sends it to the oil tank,
hence
| "dry" sump.
|
| Rick
Rick:
This may come as a big surprise to you. The 912 series engines are
primarly oil cooled. Cylinders are aircooled and heads are oil and
water cooled. The reason Rotax went with water cooling of the heads
was the heat generated by the 912 would require very large cooling
fins to cool the heads and require a much larger package. Water
cooling helped make the 912 a nice tidy package.
Also, the 912 is a dry sump engine that uses crank case pressure
created by blow by to push the oil from the sump up to the oil tank
with 3 to 5 psi. It has one pump for circulation and does not use a
pump for oil return to tank.
I can not speak for the HKS, but bet you that the HKS also uses blow
by pressure for oil return. I may be wrong, but it will not be the
first time.
Take care,
john h
mkIII/912ULS (zero time)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Red Bull air race |
|
| Scott
Thanks Scott,
I may get there a week early to watch the Red Bull Race. Never seen
one before and may never get another chance to see one.
Looks like the Red Bull will not interfere with our get together.
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 19
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| Subject: | GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates |
Old Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS Engine Report
At 08:12 AM 3/18/07 -0700, you wrote:
......................
>Engines do quit, and much more often in experimental - ultralight aircraft.
...........................
Mike, & Kolbers,
I checked the FAA Accident Database & Synopses and I ran a few queries where
the incident or accident was caused by "engine failure". I found that for
the time period between 1/1/2002 to 3/18/2007 the following:
For experimental aircraft there 24 reports with three accidents causing the
death of 4 people.
For general aviation there were 263 reports with 78 accidents causing the
death of 156 people.
>From the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, I found that the latest data
available is 2004.
Under the General Aviation category there were 146,613 single engine piston
engine aircraft. Under the Amateur Built category there were listed 19,165
aircraft.
So assuming all things equal there where 7.65 times more GA single engine
piston powered general aviation aircraft registered than amateur built
aircraft. But in the sweep of FAA accident Database indicates GA aircraft
were involved in accidents/incidents at rate eleven times greater that
amateur built aircraft. In those cases were death took place the GA rate
was 26 times higher that amateur built. And for numbers killed GA was 39
times greater than amateur built.
To be fair, most GA aircraft fly faster and carry more passengers than
amateur built aircraft so one can expect a GA aircraft engine failure to
produce greater consequences. Also one can say that GA aircraft fly more
hours per year than do amateur aircraft. But, based on the available data,
it is a stretch to say that amateur aircraft engine failure is more likely
to happen than with GA aircraft.
I could find no reliable data for ultra light vehicle engine failure.
The data sources are listed below:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_13.html
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: HKS engine install |
To add a second pump all that must be done is add
| a second housing and gear set, but they can share the same drive
shaft. See:
|
|
| http://www.hpower-ltd.com/pdf%20files/IManual_Eng.pdf
RickG:
I looked through the entire installation manual, then went back to pg
11 and still see nothing about a return oil pump.
john h
mkIII
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates |
Jack,
Your analysis of the figures is correct, but I totally disagree with your conclusion.
You did not take into account that almost all General Aviation engine
fialures are are reported, while most ultralight - experimental engine failure
go unreported.
Just looking at the NTSB numbers of REPORTED accidents with injurys is useless.
Anyone that thinks exprimental - ultralight engine failures is lower than certified
General Aviation is very misinformed about the nature of the machines
we are flying.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101488#101488
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Red Bull air race |
John, if you're going to be there that long, you might want to check with
Lorenz Tours, up behind the campground. The reservations desk can give you
his phone #, and you might enjoy the ATV tour that my cousin and I went on
last year. Lorenz gave a good value, but make sure you take your own water
and snacks. Lar. Do not
Archive.
On 3/18/07, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks Scott,
>
> I may get there a week early to watch the Red Bull Race. Never seen
> one before and may never get another chance to see one.
>
> Looks like the Red Bull will not interfere with our get together.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Red Bull air race/Monument Valley Kolb Flyin 2007 |
| John, if you're going to be there that long, you might want to check
with
| Lorenz Tours,
Larry:
Thanks, sounds like a good idea.
I have never done the MV tour either. Would be a good way to burn up
a day. That leaves about two days until folks start showing up.
Usually, we get there about Thursday afternoon.
I'm sure, after a few days, I will be looking for stuff to do to stay
occupied, besides eating Navajo Taco Salad. ;-)
Will do some serious study, then make a decision on getting there
early. Course, I can always sight see. There are a lot of places to
fly to in the close proximity of MV.
The 2007 Unorganized/Unplanned Kolb Flyin, Monument Valley, Utah, will
be 18, 19, 20 May 2007. If you have never attended, you need to make
an effort to go. It is a great get together of a bunch of Kolb folks.
They are there because they love Kolb airplanes and to have a chance
to meet up with Kolb friends we only get to see once a year at MV. I
might add, a lot of us met for the first time at one of the Kolb
flyins at MV.
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates |
while most ultralight - experimental engine failure go unreported.
Mike,
If I read Jack's study correctly, He only used "engine failures" that
resulted in a fatality and only compared GA to experimental. I doubt there
are many fatal accidents in experimentals that go unreported.
Steven
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Red Bull air race/Monument Valley Kolb Flyin 2007 |
Take a look at my webpage on that day with Lorenz last year, in MV 2006. It
was a great ride. Lar. Do not Archive.
On 3/18/07, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> with
>
>
> Larry:
>
> Thanks, sounds like a good idea.
>
> I have never done the MV tour either. Would be a good way to burn up
> a day. That leaves about two days until folks start showing up.
> Usually, we get there about Thursday afternoon.
>
> I'm sure, after a few days, I will be looking for stuff to do to stay
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates |
At 08:52 PM 3/18/2007, Steven Green wrote:
>
>If I read Jack's study correctly, He only used "engine failures" that
>resulted in a fatality and only compared GA to experimental. I doubt there
>are many fatal accidents in experimentals that go unreported.
Yes, but you have to compare apples to apples. GA planes on the average
almost certainly fly more hours than experimentals. Many of these hours
are IFR, which increases the likelihood of a bat outcome from an engine
failure. Most GA planes are larger and faster than the average
experimental, so an engine failure that puts a Kolb down in a pasture might
be much in, say, a Bonanza. And, of course, ultralight accidents aren't
tracked at all by the NTSB any more (unless it's a high profile case like
the Walmart heir and/or if they decide it's an "unregistered aircraft"
rather than an "ultralight vehicle".
-Dana
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The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve.
The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates |
At 03:20 PM 3/18/07 -0700, you wrote:
...................................
>
> You did not take into account that almost all General Aviation engine fialures
are are reported, while most ultralight - experimental engine failure go unreported.
>
>Just looking at the NTSB numbers of REPORTED accidents with injurys is useless.
...................................
Steve,
I agree that it is possible that many ultra light vehicle and undocumented
experimental aircraft incidents are unreported. But if it is an N-numbered
aircraft, it seems to me that it would be difficult to under report an
engine failure and a fatality. I did not query the data base for injuries or
fatalities. I queried the data base for "engine failure". The number of
fatalities was listed for each query match and I totaled them up.
The point is that people who fly in N-numbered amateur aircraft appear to
have a better chance of surviving an engine failure than those who fly in
single engine piston engine GA aircraft.
Where will you find better data than the NTSB database?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates |
At 10:46 PM 3/18/2007, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>I agree that it is possible that many ultra light vehicle and undocumented
>experimental aircraft incidents are unreported. But if it is an N-numbered
>aircraft, it seems to me that it would be difficult to under report an
>engine failure and a fatality...
Fatalities for sure will get reported. But many times the pilot of an
experimental (or antique) will put his bird down in a pasture for whatever
reason, and just deal with the problem and get it back out of there as fast
as possible... especially if he's not squeaky clean legal. And usually he
CAN get it back out... a Kolb (or a Cub for that matter) will handle a
rough field landing far better than, say, a Cessna 172 or a Cherokee.
-Dana
do not archive
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The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve.
The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
Message 29
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Hello all,
I finally saved enough money to put brakes on my Firestar. I chose the Back Max
BX-1000 brakes made by Free Bird Innovations (FBI) in Minnesota. Steve Boetto
of this list said they looked good, and I got a good feeling talking to the
owner Kieth LeCleir. I also took a look at the installation manual they have
on their web site and liked the simplicity of the design.
I spent most of the day yesterday putting on new axle fittings and getting them
aligned. The brakes mounted easily on the axles and running the brake lines
took less than an hour. Getting the grip style master cylinder mounted on the
stick was more challenging, but I won't bore you with the details.
Bottom line is that I am very satisfied. I tested the brakes today at two paved,
one gravel and one sod field with great results. They slowed me down quickly
with no tendency to grab or pull to one side. I turned off on the first taxiway
for the first time in my Kolb career.
On the ramp, I can add throttle til the tail comes up with the stick all the way
back and the brakes don't slip. As a bonus, the new brake, tire, wheel system
weighs five pounds less than my original Kolb brakeless wheels and tires.
At $389 for tires, wheels, axles, and brakes, it would be hard to find a better
brake system deal for a Firestar.
I flew 391 hrs without brakes, and now have 3 hours with them. I don't think
I'll fly without them again.
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101546#101546
Message 30
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To all my friends in Old Blighty, a belated Mothering Sunday.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: GA & Amateur Built Aircraft Engine Failure Rates |
At 08:52 PM 3/18/2007, you wrote:
>while most ultralight - experimental engine failure go unreported.
>
>If I read Jack's study correctly, He only used "engine failures" that
>resulted in a fatality and only compared GA to experimental. I doubt there
>are many fatal accidents in experimentals that go unreported.
>
>Steven
>
>do not archive
I agree with that, but I disagree that "any and all" utralight
incidents go unreported.
In fact I get reported every 5 or 10 years in the local paper.
Sucks for me ... but....www.mdjonline.com
don't go there unless you are saved or been saved
HEY IT'S SUN & FUN .....GO FORTH & MULTIPLY.
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