Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:51 AM - Re: Prop Balance (Paul Petty)
2. 02:15 AM - Re: Prop Balance (Paul Petty)
3. 02:53 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (pat ladd)
4. 02:56 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (pat ladd)
5. 04:29 AM - Torque effects reduced (Mike Welch)
6. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (N27SB@aol.com)
7. 04:32 AM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (Denny Rowe)
8. 04:41 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (N27SB@aol.com)
9. 04:45 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (Dana Hague)
10. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (Dana Hague)
11. 06:12 AM - Re: sport pilot (Thom Riddle)
12. 06:32 AM - Re: Prop Balance (Thom Riddle)
13. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (John Hauck)
14. 06:43 AM - Re: Torque effects reduced (knowvne@aol.com)
15. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (John Hauck)
16. 06:57 AM - TAB adjustments UL (knowvne@aol.com)
17. 07:57 AM - Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (JetPilot)
18. 11:06 AM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (Dana Hague)
19. 11:47 AM - Re: Prop Balance (Roger Lee)
20. 12:22 PM - AN AMSOIL STATEMENTS... (knowvne@aol.com)
21. 12:40 PM - Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings (John Hauck)
22. 01:02 PM - Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings (knowvne@aol.com)
23. 01:45 PM - Vinyl Graphics (Vic Peters)
24. 01:59 PM - Monument Valley 2007 (John Hauck)
25. 02:01 PM - Re: Vinyl Graphics (John Hauck)
26. 02:16 PM - Re: Vinyl Graphics (John Hauck)
27. 02:59 PM - Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings (Dana Hague)
28. 03:29 PM - Re: Torque effects reduced (David Lucas)
29. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (Jack B. Hart)
30. 03:57 PM - Re: Monument Valley 2007 (John Williamson)
31. 05:48 PM - Re: Monument Valley 2007 (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
32. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (Jack B. Hart)
33. 08:35 PM - Flyofftime (Rick Pearce)
34. 08:40 PM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (N27SB@AOL.COM)
35. 10:14 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Charlie England)
36. 10:38 PM - Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings (JetPilot)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance |
Roger,
Didn't someone design a harmonic balencer for airplane props? I know i saw it somewhere.
It used tiny ball bearings in a hub that allways found the out of balance
point. I tried to google it but came up with snake eyes.
did find this tho http://www.dssmicro.com/faqs/fqprpbl.htm interesting!
do not archive
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Final assembly!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104059#104059
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance |
I think this may be what i found once.
http://www.balancemasters.com/ultralights.html
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Final assembly!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104061#104061
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL |
Torque: The twisting force the engine exerts on the prop.
>>
Hi Ed,
in this instance is it not the twisting motion which the engine imparts to
the AIRFRAME not the PROP which is the force which needs correcting?
Just a thought.
Pat
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL |
It seems like something on the plane could have been designed differently>>
Hi
you are dead right. The fin could have been built slightly offset, and some
are, but think of the complications in the building process and even then
it would only be absolutely correct for one speed and/or throttle setting.
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
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| Subject: | Torque effects reduced |
Ed in JXN,
You failed to mention in your explaination of "p" factor, and
gyroscoptic moments that the effects of torque on your airplane can be
GREATLY reduced by thoroughly cleasing your propeller
with "Bubba Jones' PURIFIED PROPWASH". (available at only the best
aviation parts suppliers.)
Mike in SW Utah
>From: "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel@mindspring.com>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL
>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 22:42:34 -0400
>
>
>Hi David,
>
> The culprit is a combination of forces present in all single-engine
>prop-driven aircraft (and most twins), too. They are:
> Torque: The twisting force the engine exerts on the prop.
> Spiraling slipstream: The 'corkscrew' effect of the airflow over
>the aircraft structure, especially the tail group.
> Gyroscopic precession: Think of the prop as a huge gyroscope,
>which it is.
> 'P' factor: The uneven (asymmetric) loading of the prop, more
>prevalent at slow airspeeds and high angle-of-attack.
>
> The need for trim tabs isn't the fault of the designer. Maybe Sir
>Isaac Newton.
>
> The forces most prevalent in cruise are torque and spiral
>slipstream. A good explanation for things like this is "The Pilot's
>Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge", AC 61-23(X?), I don't know what the
>latest version is. You can order it from the GPO or Sporty's
>(sportys.com).
>
> For those desiring even more punishment, "Aerodynamics for Naval
>Aviators" should keep you occupied. Recommended only for those lacking any
>type of social life.
>
>Ed in JXN
>MkII/503
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Key" <dhkey@msn.com>
>To: <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:26 PM
>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL
>
>
>>
>>Why does everyone have essentially the same sized trim tab the same
>>direction on the rudder. It seems like something on the plane could have
>>been designed differently.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN
Presents today.
http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL |
In a message dated 3/30/2007 10:43:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
knowvne@aol.com writes:
Blame Rotax
They build the 912 so it spun the prop in the wrong Direction....8-)
Mark
Hi Mark,
The 447 spins in the opposite direction, and guess what, the trim tab goes
on the other side. Bryan Melborn of Custom Air mounts the same tab on every
plane and gets consistent results.
Steve B
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance |
Paul,
I use one of these on my Mk-3, 690L-70 with a 68 inch three blade Powerfin F
model prop. I took it off once to see if it made a differance and decided
to put it back on after taxiing a short distance.
It definitly reduces vibration.
Denny
> I think this may be what i found once.
>
> http://www.balancemasters.com/ultralights.html
>
> --------
> Paul Petty
> Kolbra #12
> Ms Dixie
> Final assembly!
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL |
It is interesting to look at an example of a Tail-less Pusher like a Long-EZ
and see the results. On mine with a 160 hp engine and a 64x79 pitch wide
blade prop there was almost no rudder change across idle to full power. P factor
and torque are real issues but I agree with the Kolb Masters that the main
culprit is wash on the vertical tail.
steve b
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL |
At 05:52 AM 3/31/2007, pat ladd wrote:
>
>Torque: The twisting force the engine exerts on the prop.
>
>Hi Ed,
>in this instance is it not the twisting motion which the engine imparts to
>the AIRFRAME not the PROP which is the force which needs correcting?
Newton: Equal and opposite reaction.
-Dana
--
--
The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve.
The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance |
At 11:32 PM 3/30/2007, Roger Lee wrote:
>...Our system is very small in comparison and it produces a smaller
>frequency vibration which is harder to feel unless it is really out of
>balance, but non the less there.
>Out of balance is kind of like smoking cigeretts. It won't get you today,
>but it will some day...
I also fly PPG, and when the engine is strapped to your back, you sure feel
the vibration! On a PPG, out of balance props tend to lead to cracked
exhaust components. Depending on the result, you may never have to worry
about balancing THAT particular prop again...
-Dana
do not archive
--
--
The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve.
The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
Message 11
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Attached is a .pdf file from a chart I got from EAA that summarizes many of the
distinctions among the various classes of aircraft/vehicles, airworthiness certificates,
maintenance etc that should be of interest to folks flying Kolbs or
other light weight flying machines. This not the rules for what qualifies as
an LSA which I think we all have comitted to memory, but rather most of the other
things that are pertinent to the subject. I keep it handy 'cuz my memory
ain't what it used to be.
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104077#104077
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lsa_sp_rules_table_768.pdf
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance |
Roger,
How does one dynamically balance a prop attached to an engine? I know
how to statically balance one and also know how to calculate the moment
of inertia. Details are needed. Or did you take it to someone with
special machinery to do that?
Thom in Buffalo
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL |
| It seems like something on the plane could have been designed
differently>>
|
| Hi
|
| you are dead right. The fin could have been built slightly offset,
| Pat
Patrick:
My thoughts exactly.
I tried to get the old Kolb Company to experiement with this solution,
off setting the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer. They never
got around to it and I got tired of flying 1/2 ball out of trim.
I off set mine several times, eventually ending at 1 1/8" with very
little improvement. After all that drill, about three or four
different locations, I repositioned the leading edge of the vertical
stabilizer back to the center.
Then I went back to the rudder trim tab which was one rib bay long.
Tripled the length to three rib bays. That was too much. Cut one rib
bay off the length and came up with the dimensions and photos I shared
a couple days ago. Works perfect now.
I might add I also experimented with many different engine to airframe
changes without success, eventually putting the engine back where
Homer put it in the first place.
john h
mkIII
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Torque effects reduced |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Mike
Does that come in Powder or a Liquid?
hahahaha
Mark Vaughn
-----Original Message-----
From: mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com
Sent: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 7:28 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Torque effects reduced
<mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
Ed in JXN,
You failed to mention in your explaination of "p" factor, and
gyroscoptic moments that the effects of torque on your airplane can be
GREATLY reduced by thoroughly cleasing your propeller
with "Bubba Jones' PURIFIED PROPWASH". (available at only the best
aviation parts suppliers.)
Mike in SW Utah
________________________________________________________________________
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance |
| I also fly PPG, and when the engine is strapped to your back, you
sure feel
| the vibration! |
| -Dana
Dana:
Wouldn't it be more comfortable to have the engine bolted to a 4130
airframe, like we do in our Kolb airplanes?
john h
mkIII
Message 16
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| Subject: | TAB adjustments UL |
Steve
Your one of the Lucky ones....
Your able to fix your problem by simply stepping on the other peddle..
8-)
Here's a serious Question.... Will the degree of TAB deflection Change
when going
from one blade length to another or to a different pItch setting? No
experince doing
either so I was curious...
Thanks
Mark
Blame Rotax
They build the 912 so it spun the prop in the wrong Direction....8-)
Mark
Hi Mark,
The 447 spins in the opposite direction, and guess what, the trim tab
goes on the other side.
Bryan Melborn of Custom Air mounts the same tab on every plane and
gets consistent results.
Steve B
--------
See what's free at AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL |
Steve Boetto wrote:
>
>
> Hi Mark,
> The 447 spins in the opposite direction, and guess what, the trim tab goes
on the other side. Bryan Melborn of Custom Air mounts the same tab on every
plane and gets consistent results.
>
>
> Steve B
>
>
That say a lot for Bryans building skills. If all the trim tabs on all his planes
all turn out to be the same, thats as close to perfect as you will ever get.
Mike
See what's free at AOL.com (http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503).
> [b]
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104104#104104
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance |
At 09:45 AM 3/31/2007, John Hauck wrote:
> Wouldn't it be more comfortable to have the engine bolted to a 4130
>airframe, like we do in our Kolb airplanes?
Well, some PPG's are 4130... :)
Actually the PPG seat is pretty comfortable once you're airborne. PPG and
planes are equally fun in different ways... a PPG is very weather limited
and only goes 20-25 mph (which is both and advantage and a disadvantage)
but a Kolb can't take off and land in 10', either.
-Dana
do not archive
--
--
The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve.
The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance |
Hi All,
The prop vibration can cause exhaust to break, seals to go bad, bearings to go
bad, parts to crack. The funny thing is you won't even know it. Mine was out .30"
and by adding the proper weight I am now down to .03". Anything .06" and under
is good. Of course .00 would be great. Anything can cause the out of balance.
It may be hardware, something out of round, large nicks in a prop, spinners.
All the components from the tranny hub back must be put into sync or balance,
not just the blades of the prop.
Things to know.
First make sure your prop blades are all equal(i.e. 68 degrees of pitch) and not
to have one out by .5 degree. This is really easy if anyone wants me to explain
later.
If you have a relatively new prop it should be statically balanced off the plane
to make sure one spot or area is not out of a static balance.
Just for a dynamic balance, you call someone and have them hook up a small computer
box to your plane. You will have one sensor, sometimes two, placed on your
gear box. You will have a photo-eye mounted to aim at a piece of reflective
tape on your prop to check rpm. You then run you engine at about low cruise rpm
i.e. 4800rpm or so and the computer takes measurements. It will then tell the
operator where in degrees relative to the tape on the prop where and how much
weight should be added. Depending how far out you are depends on the amount
of weight and location of the weight. Sometimes it my suggest two weighted areas.
You would be supprised at how much weight and you didn't even feel it in the
stick. Then you run it again and double check the vibration on the computer
box. It may be ok or it may suggest you move a weight or add more, just depends.
You may run your engine 2-3 times or 8-10, but your tranny and engine parts
that aren't vibrating anymore will love you.
Two strokes are more vunerable than 4 strokes and need to be balanced, also.
I have tried, in the earlier days, those add on balance devices with different
things in them. They really only help if you are shaking bad, but you are still
way out of balance, you just can't feel it as much anymore. If you need proof
put the balance device on and then get the dynamic balance done and it will
enlighten you right away.
If one other person here on the forum would get a balance and see how far out they
most likely are then I think there will be believers.
I'm only trying to help everyone have a fun, with less long term maint. issues.
:D
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104137#104137
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| Subject: | AN AMSOIL STATEMENTS... |
THIS FROM AMSOIL
Hello Mark,
I am sending you some information on Amsoil for your Tundra.
I must tell you that Amsoil has no oil that is Aircraft approved.
They used to but no longer.
Ken Deemer
Superior Oils & Lubricants
8555 E. Wesson Ct.
Claremore, OK. 74019
1-877-237-6323 or 1-918-269-0081
ken@oilsandlube.com
www.oilsandlube.com
Are their 2 stroke oils approved for aircraft engine use???
Mark
________________________________________________________________________
from AOL at AOL.com.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings |
|
| -Dana
Dana:
I don't pay that much attention to them at Lakeland or OSH, but I have
yet to see one land in 10 feet. Maybe I wasn't paying close enough
attention. Sometimes they bust their ass taking off and attempting to
land. That gets lots of laughs from the rail birds on the fence.
If I ever get to the point I want to fly one of them, I will transfer
over to a PPG email forum. For now, I will remain on the Kolb List,
fly and enjoy my Kolbs, as I have for the last 23 years. Really do
not see a new aircraft of any type in my future.
I have no desire to fly 25 mph maxed out or land in a 10 ft strip.
Had plenty experience doing that in the Army. Main difference between
a PPG and an AH-1G is about 200 mph and a hell of a lot larger
ordnance load. ;-)
Many situations I find myself I would be flying backwards. That
wouldn't work well.
And again, I like my engine mounted to my airframe and not my back.
john h
mkIII
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings |
Dana
Both the flying fish and the Jelly fish have a purpose
But only the flying fish has a brain... 8-) hahahahaha
Mark Vaughn
-----Original Message-----
From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 3:39 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings
|
Dana:
I don't pay that much attention to them at Lakeland or OSH, but I have
yet to see one land in 10 feet. Maybe I wasn't paying close enough
attention. Sometimes they bust their ass taking off and attempting to
land. That gets lots of laughs from the rail birds on the fence.
If I ever get to the point I want to fly one of them, I will transfer
over to a PPG email forum. For now, I will remain on the Kolb List,
fly and enjoy my Kolbs, as I have for the last 23 years. Really do
not see a new aircraft of any type in my future.
I have no desire to fly 25 mph maxed out or land in a 10 ft strip.
Had plenty experience doing that in the Army. Main difference between
a PPG and an AH-1G is about 200 mph and a hell of a lot larger
ordnance load. ;-)
Many situations I find myself I would be flying backwards. That
wouldn't work well.
And again, I like my engine mounted to my airframe and not my back.
john h
mkIII
________________________________________________________________________
from AOL at AOL.com.
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John H.,
I returned an email to you but am not sure you recieved it.
Vic
Do not archive
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| Subject: | Monument Valley 2007 |
Hi Gang:
List mail is a little slow today. I can't shoot Pontiac Red Aerothane
until it rains, and it isn't going to rain today.
So........Who is coming to MV 2007?
Off the top of my head:
John Williamson
Jim Heffren
John Bickham (you are going to fly the mkIII out, aren't you?)
Boyd Young
John Hauck
Steven Green
Larry Cottrell and Karen
Arty Trost
George Thompson
Jim and John Clayton?
Will Uribe
Dave Raines
Larry Bourne
That's good enough for a starter. If I missed you, add your name to
the list.
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHVE
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl Graphics |
Hi Vic:
Got the email and the attachment.
Will let you know what I plan to do when I make that decision.
Right now I am trying to get the old bird flying in time to fly to
Lakeland.
My how time flies.
john h
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl Graphics |
|
| Got the email and the attachment.
Kolb Listers:
The above was intended bc, but I failed to look at the reply to
address before I hit the send button.
20,000 xin loi, GI.
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings |
At 03:39 PM 3/31/2007, John Hauck wrote:
>
>I don't pay that much attention to them at Lakeland or OSH, but I have
>yet to see one land in 10 feet. Maybe I wasn't paying close enough
>attention. Sometimes they bust their ass taking off and attempting to
>land. That gets lots of laughs from the rail birds on the fence.
Actually 10 feet would be a LONG landing... one or two steps is
typical. Takeoff can be anywhere from one or two steps (with some breeze)
to maybe a 100' run with no wind ahd high density altitude, depending on
the pilot's technique.
>If I ever get to the point I want to fly one of them, I will transfer
>over to a PPG email forum. For now, I will remain on the Kolb List,
>fly and enjoy my Kolbs, as I have for the last 23 years. Really do
>not see a new aircraft of any type in my future.
That's cool, to each his own. I'm here to talk about Kolbs too, not
PPG. As you say there are forums for that, too. I only mentioned PPG for
sake of comparison.
-Dana
--
--
The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve.
The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Torque effects reduced |
> "Bubba Jones' PURIFIED PROPWASH". (available at only the best
> aviation parts suppliers.)
You'll find it just down the aisle opposite the Sea Foam stocks !
David.
Do Not Archive !
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104162#104162
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance |
At 11:47 AM 3/31/07 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Two strokes are more vunerable than 4 strokes and need to be balanced, also.
>
Roger,
I am curious, why this is so?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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| Subject: | Re: Monument Valley 2007 |
Hey John H.
I guess since you have my name on the list I'll go to Monument Valley.
The List has been slow today because every Kolbra in Texas had to go flying today.
Flew down to Georgetown and back. Put 3.4 hours on the Kolbra. Only got lost
twice!
No Not Archive.
--------
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104168#104168
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Monument Valley 2007 |
I will be there.
John Williamson
Jim Heffren
John Bickham (you are going to fly the mkIII out, aren't you?)
Boyd Young
John Hauck
Steven Green
Larry Cottrell and Karen
Arty Trost
George Thompson
Jim and John Clayton?
Will Uribe
Dave Raines
Larry Bourne
Rick Neilsen
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VWpowered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Monument Valley 2007
>
> Hi Gang:
>
> List mail is a little slow today. I can't shoot Pontiac Red Aerothane
> until it rains, and it isn't going to rain today.
>
> So........Who is coming to MV 2007?
>
> Off the top of my head:
>
> John Williamson
> Jim Heffren
> John Bickham (you are going to fly the mkIII out, aren't you?)
> Boyd Young
> John Hauck
> Steven Green
> Larry Cottrell and Karen
> Arty Trost
> George Thompson
> Jim and John Clayton?
> Will Uribe
> Dave Raines
> Larry Bourne
>
> That's good enough for a starter. If I missed you, add your name to
> the list.
>
> john h
> mkIII
>
> DO NOT ARCHVE
>
>
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL |
From: N27SB@aol.com
>It is interesting to look at an example of a Tail-less Pusher like a
Long-EZ and see the results. On mine with a 160 hp engine and a 64x79 pitch
wide blade prop there was almost no rudder change across idle to full power.
P factor and torque are real issues but I agree with the Kolb Masters that
the main culprit is wash on the vertical tail.
Steve and Kolbers,
Out of curiosity, I looked at the magnitude of the propeller torque that has
to be resisted by the FireFly in the roll axis for level flight. Assuming
that under cruise conditions the engine is developing a torque of 40 foot
pounds. Multiplying by the belt ratio (2.7) gives 108 foot pounds torque
that the air frame must resist. To compensate most add trim some where in
the roll control system. Another possibility is that one could add weight
to the propeller down swing wing tip to dynamically balance out the torque.
I would have to add 108/11 or 9.82 pounds to the right wing tip to prevent
torque roll off at cruise. For those who are moving up the hp scale, the
amount could easily double and triple. I would not want to try to takeoff
or land a FireFly with a 10 pound weight on one wing tip.
Not practical but interesting.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 33
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I just got my plane inspected two weeks ago and was only given a
25 hour fly off period. 50 mile radius instead of 50 dia which surprised
me.
To change the subject I received a phone call Thursday night that
my buddy had been caught by a thunder storm in his Fire Star and was
forced down just a mile away from my strip. He managed to put it down on
a road between a power line and a fence on a narrow gravel road. Not to
bad for dead stick landing with so much rain that he couldn't see .
Caught a fence post with the left wing. Punched a few holes in his wings
bent a gear and messed up his nose pod. He walked away OK.Him & I were
sure drowned rats by the time we got the wings folded and the plane on a
car trailer in a thunder storm allot of wind and lighting. I told him he
owes me a beer.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL |
In a message dated 3/31/2007 10:58:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
orcabonita@hotmail.com writes:
That say a lot for Bryans building skills. If all the trim tabs on all his
planes all turn out to be the same, thats as close to perfect as you will
ever get.
Mike
Mike,
Its not just his planes, on any Kolb built fairly straight, he will
recommend the same thing. When he recovered my Firefly (Duanetheplane built)
he
mounted the same tab. Result, the Firefly flew straight.
steve
do not archive
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Paul Petty wrote:
>
> Hey Gang,
>
> I am about ready to record the W&B of Ms Dixie. So I am asking questions from
others and gathering as much info as possible about the correct proccedre for
this. John W was so kind to send me a spread sheet on his results as well as
Mark G. on how he did his. Thanks guys! I have learned one thing for sure, one
cant ask to many questions from to many people to learn how to do a task. You
only need to be smart enough to do whats right for you so that you understand
the task at hand. In this case I also asked a good friend to help explain this
to me and thought I might share his thoughts with the list and future builders.
>
> "Just wanted to send this after we talked.
> The datum is any point on the airplane where all measurements will be
> taken from, in your case the nose with a plumb bob to the floor.
> An arm is simply a distance from the datum to another point where you
> are taking a weight, ie, center of the main wheel axles and the center
> of the tailwheel with the plane in the level flight position.
> The moment is the multiplication of the weight at any point times the
> distance aft of the datum to that point,ie, distance X weight = moment
> add the total weight and the total moments then divide the total
> weight into the total moment the resultant number is the CG or where
> the airplane will balance if you put the fuse across a bar or
> 2x4.expressed in inches aft of the datum.
> when you know the empty balance point you can do some weight and
> balance calculations for different loadings using the same formula.
> You will need to know the distance in inches of the center of the
> front seat aft of the datum,center of the rear seat,center of the
> fuel tank and any other place you might add or take off weight at some
> time. like a cargo compartment.
> Then make up a maximum weight you might ever put there, or use your
> weight if you wish. do the weight aft of the datum x the distance to
> the seat and the other two measuerments you did already using the
> wheels. add all together and divide and you have the new CG with this
> configeration. do it with full fuel @ 6 pounds per gallon for a full
> tank and one with almost empty. if you stay in the envelope you r
> gold.then do it for someone in the rear seat and do it the same way.
> You will have to watch the useful load so you dont load over gross.
> Please send $500,000.00 for this advice
> Tom"
>
>
> Hope this may help someone and if any see any holes in this as you can tell very
expensive advice have at it!
>
> --------
> Paul Petty
> Kolbra #12
> Ms Dixie
> Final assembly!
A few quick thoughts.
Datum needs to be a known distance from the wing. Is the nose
pre-drilled to the frame? If not, you could move the datum quite a bit
meaning the CG might not fall where you expect on the chord of the wing.
(It would be like using the tip of the spinner on a tractor type plane
but not specifying the spinner length.)
Do the Kolb plans specify attitude when you do the W&B? Most planes are
weighed in flight attitude & perfectly level from side to side. Tail
weight can vary a *lot* depending on whether the plane is level. Using
one scale would mean a platform the height of the scale for the other
main wheel. Most procedures specify ramps to get the mains on the
scales. That's 'cause if you pick up the plane & lower it on the scales,
the side load as the mains try to spread out again can affect the
scale readings.
Weighing should be inside with doors shut, no wind, fans, etc (affects
scale readings).
The Kolb might fly fine without these details, but it's SOP on homebuilts.
FWIW,
Charlie
Fly it up to Slobovia when you get your A/W cert.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings |
Taking off and landing in 10 feet is cool, but not at the expense of totally giving
up cross country flying. Every PPG event or club I ever see, the guys are
lucky to ever get out of the pattern, and even then, they dont stray far.
PPG's seem downright boring to me. Not to mention the wind problem with those
things, they are just to limited in performance for me to ever consider.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Read this topic online here:
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