---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/31/07: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:51 AM - Re: Prop Balance (Paul Petty) 2. 02:15 AM - Re: Prop Balance (Paul Petty) 3. 02:53 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (pat ladd) 4. 02:56 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (pat ladd) 5. 04:29 AM - Torque effects reduced (Mike Welch) 6. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (N27SB@aol.com) 7. 04:32 AM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (Denny Rowe) 8. 04:41 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (N27SB@aol.com) 9. 04:45 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (Dana Hague) 10. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (Dana Hague) 11. 06:12 AM - Re: sport pilot (Thom Riddle) 12. 06:32 AM - Re: Prop Balance (Thom Riddle) 13. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (John Hauck) 14. 06:43 AM - Re: Torque effects reduced (knowvne@aol.com) 15. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (John Hauck) 16. 06:57 AM - TAB adjustments UL (knowvne@aol.com) 17. 07:57 AM - Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (JetPilot) 18. 11:06 AM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (Dana Hague) 19. 11:47 AM - Re: Prop Balance (Roger Lee) 20. 12:22 PM - AN AMSOIL STATEMENTS... (knowvne@aol.com) 21. 12:40 PM - Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings (John Hauck) 22. 01:02 PM - Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings (knowvne@aol.com) 23. 01:45 PM - Vinyl Graphics (Vic Peters) 24. 01:59 PM - Monument Valley 2007 (John Hauck) 25. 02:01 PM - Re: Vinyl Graphics (John Hauck) 26. 02:16 PM - Re: Vinyl Graphics (John Hauck) 27. 02:59 PM - Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings (Dana Hague) 28. 03:29 PM - Re: Torque effects reduced (David Lucas) 29. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: Prop Balance (Jack B. Hart) 30. 03:57 PM - Re: Monument Valley 2007 (John Williamson) 31. 05:48 PM - Re: Monument Valley 2007 (Richard & Martha Neilsen) 32. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (Jack B. Hart) 33. 08:35 PM - Flyofftime (Rick Pearce) 34. 08:40 PM - Re: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL (N27SB@AOL.COM) 35. 10:14 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Charlie England) 36. 10:38 PM - Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings (JetPilot) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:54 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Prop Balance From: "Paul Petty" Roger, Didn't someone design a harmonic balencer for airplane props? I know i saw it somewhere. It used tiny ball bearings in a hub that allways found the out of balance point. I tried to google it but came up with snake eyes. did find this tho http://www.dssmicro.com/faqs/fqprpbl.htm interesting! do not archive -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie Final assembly! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104059#104059 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:15:50 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Prop Balance From: "Paul Petty" I think this may be what i found once. http://www.balancemasters.com/ultralights.html -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie Final assembly! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104061#104061 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:07 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL Torque: The twisting force the engine exerts on the prop. >> Hi Ed, in this instance is it not the twisting motion which the engine imparts to the AIRFRAME not the PROP which is the force which needs correcting? Just a thought. Pat ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:40 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL It seems like something on the plane could have been designed differently>> Hi you are dead right. The fin could have been built slightly offset, and some are, but think of the complications in the building process and even then it would only be absolutely correct for one speed and/or throttle setting. Cheers Pat do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:34 AM PST US From: "Mike Welch" Subject: Kolb-List: Torque effects reduced Ed in JXN, You failed to mention in your explaination of "p" factor, and gyroscoptic moments that the effects of torque on your airplane can be GREATLY reduced by thoroughly cleasing your propeller with "Bubba Jones' PURIFIED PROPWASH". (available at only the best aviation parts suppliers.) Mike in SW Utah >From: "Ed Chmielewski" >To: >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL >Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 22:42:34 -0400 > > >Hi David, > > The culprit is a combination of forces present in all single-engine >prop-driven aircraft (and most twins), too. They are: > Torque: The twisting force the engine exerts on the prop. > Spiraling slipstream: The 'corkscrew' effect of the airflow over >the aircraft structure, especially the tail group. > Gyroscopic precession: Think of the prop as a huge gyroscope, >which it is. > 'P' factor: The uneven (asymmetric) loading of the prop, more >prevalent at slow airspeeds and high angle-of-attack. > > The need for trim tabs isn't the fault of the designer. Maybe Sir >Isaac Newton. > > The forces most prevalent in cruise are torque and spiral >slipstream. A good explanation for things like this is "The Pilot's >Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge", AC 61-23(X?), I don't know what the >latest version is. You can order it from the GPO or Sporty's >(sportys.com). > > For those desiring even more punishment, "Aerodynamics for Naval >Aviators" should keep you occupied. Recommended only for those lacking any >type of social life. > >Ed in JXN >MkII/503 > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "David Key" >To: >Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:26 PM >Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL > > >> >>Why does everyone have essentially the same sized trim tab the same >>direction on the rudder. It seems like something on the plane could have >>been designed differently. > > _________________________________________________________________ Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN Presents today. http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:24 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL In a message dated 3/30/2007 10:43:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, knowvne@aol.com writes: Blame Rotax They build the 912 so it spun the prop in the wrong Direction....8-) Mark Hi Mark, The 447 spins in the opposite direction, and guess what, the trim tab goes on the other side. Bryan Melborn of Custom Air mounts the same tab on every plane and gets consistent results. Steve B ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:52 AM PST US From: "Denny Rowe" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Prop Balance Paul, I use one of these on my Mk-3, 690L-70 with a 68 inch three blade Powerfin F model prop. I took it off once to see if it made a differance and decided to put it back on after taxiing a short distance. It definitly reduces vibration. Denny > I think this may be what i found once. > > http://www.balancemasters.com/ultralights.html > > -------- > Paul Petty > Kolbra #12 > Ms Dixie > Final assembly! > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:49 AM PST US From: N27SB@aol.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL It is interesting to look at an example of a Tail-less Pusher like a Long-EZ and see the results. On mine with a 160 hp engine and a 64x79 pitch wide blade prop there was almost no rudder change across idle to full power. P factor and torque are real issues but I agree with the Kolb Masters that the main culprit is wash on the vertical tail. steve b ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:17 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL At 05:52 AM 3/31/2007, pat ladd wrote: > >Torque: The twisting force the engine exerts on the prop. > >Hi Ed, >in this instance is it not the twisting motion which the engine imparts to >the AIRFRAME not the PROP which is the force which needs correcting? Newton: Equal and opposite reaction. -Dana -- -- The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:17 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Prop Balance At 11:32 PM 3/30/2007, Roger Lee wrote: >...Our system is very small in comparison and it produces a smaller >frequency vibration which is harder to feel unless it is really out of >balance, but non the less there. >Out of balance is kind of like smoking cigeretts. It won't get you today, >but it will some day... I also fly PPG, and when the engine is strapped to your back, you sure feel the vibration! On a PPG, out of balance props tend to lead to cracked exhaust components. Depending on the result, you may never have to worry about balancing THAT particular prop again... -Dana do not archive -- -- The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:31 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: sport pilot From: "Thom Riddle" Attached is a .pdf file from a chart I got from EAA that summarizes many of the distinctions among the various classes of aircraft/vehicles, airworthiness certificates, maintenance etc that should be of interest to folks flying Kolbs or other light weight flying machines. This not the rules for what qualifies as an LSA which I think we all have comitted to memory, but rather most of the other things that are pertinent to the subject. I keep it handy 'cuz my memory ain't what it used to be. Thom in Buffalo Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104077#104077 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lsa_sp_rules_table_768.pdf ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:36 AM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Prop Balance Roger, How does one dynamically balance a prop attached to an engine? I know how to statically balance one and also know how to calculate the moment of inertia. Details are needed. Or did you take it to someone with special machinery to do that? Thom in Buffalo ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:39 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL | It seems like something on the plane could have been designed differently>> | | Hi | | you are dead right. The fin could have been built slightly offset, | Pat Patrick: My thoughts exactly. I tried to get the old Kolb Company to experiement with this solution, off setting the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer. They never got around to it and I got tired of flying 1/2 ball out of trim. I off set mine several times, eventually ending at 1 1/8" with very little improvement. After all that drill, about three or four different locations, I repositioned the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer back to the center. Then I went back to the rudder trim tab which was one rib bay long. Tripled the length to three rib bays. That was too much. Cut one rib bay off the length and came up with the dimensions and photos I shared a couple days ago. Works perfect now. I might add I also experimented with many different engine to airframe changes without success, eventually putting the engine back where Homer put it in the first place. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Torque effects reduced From: knowvne@aol.com HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Mike Does that come in Powder or a Liquid? hahahaha Mark Vaughn -----Original Message----- From: mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com Sent: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Torque effects reduced Ed in JXN, You failed to mention in your explaination of "p" factor, and gyroscoptic moments that the effects of torque on your airplane can be GREATLY reduced by thoroughly cleasing your propeller with "Bubba Jones' PURIFIED PROPWASH". (available at only the best aviation parts suppliers.) Mike in SW Utah ________________________________________________________________________ from AOL at AOL.com. =0 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:47 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Prop Balance | I also fly PPG, and when the engine is strapped to your back, you sure feel | the vibration! | | -Dana Dana: Wouldn't it be more comfortable to have the engine bolted to a 4130 airframe, like we do in our Kolb airplanes? john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:46 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: TAB adjustments UL From: knowvne@aol.com Steve Your one of the Lucky ones.... Your able to fix your problem by simply stepping on the other peddle.. 8-) Here's a serious Question.... Will the degree of TAB deflection Change when going from one blade length to another or to a different pItch setting? No experince doing either so I was curious... Thanks Mark Blame Rotax They build the 912 so it spun the prop in the wrong Direction....8-) Mark Hi Mark, The 447 spins in the opposite direction, and guess what, the trim tab goes on the other side. Bryan Melborn of Custom Air mounts the same tab on every plane and gets consistent results. Steve B -------- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________ from AOL at AOL.com. =0 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:55 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL From: "JetPilot" Steve Boetto wrote: > > > Hi Mark, > The 447 spins in the opposite direction, and guess what, the trim tab goes on the other side. Bryan Melborn of Custom Air mounts the same tab on every plane and gets consistent results. > > > Steve B > > That say a lot for Bryans building skills. If all the trim tabs on all his planes all turn out to be the same, thats as close to perfect as you will ever get. Mike See what's free at AOL.com (http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503). > [b] -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104104#104104 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:54 AM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Prop Balance At 09:45 AM 3/31/2007, John Hauck wrote: > Wouldn't it be more comfortable to have the engine bolted to a 4130 >airframe, like we do in our Kolb airplanes? Well, some PPG's are 4130... :) Actually the PPG seat is pretty comfortable once you're airborne. PPG and planes are equally fun in different ways... a PPG is very weather limited and only goes 20-25 mph (which is both and advantage and a disadvantage) but a Kolb can't take off and land in 10', either. -Dana do not archive -- -- The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:55 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Prop Balance From: "Roger Lee" Hi All, The prop vibration can cause exhaust to break, seals to go bad, bearings to go bad, parts to crack. The funny thing is you won't even know it. Mine was out .30" and by adding the proper weight I am now down to .03". Anything .06" and under is good. Of course .00 would be great. Anything can cause the out of balance. It may be hardware, something out of round, large nicks in a prop, spinners. All the components from the tranny hub back must be put into sync or balance, not just the blades of the prop. Things to know. First make sure your prop blades are all equal(i.e. 68 degrees of pitch) and not to have one out by .5 degree. This is really easy if anyone wants me to explain later. If you have a relatively new prop it should be statically balanced off the plane to make sure one spot or area is not out of a static balance. Just for a dynamic balance, you call someone and have them hook up a small computer box to your plane. You will have one sensor, sometimes two, placed on your gear box. You will have a photo-eye mounted to aim at a piece of reflective tape on your prop to check rpm. You then run you engine at about low cruise rpm i.e. 4800rpm or so and the computer takes measurements. It will then tell the operator where in degrees relative to the tape on the prop where and how much weight should be added. Depending how far out you are depends on the amount of weight and location of the weight. Sometimes it my suggest two weighted areas. You would be supprised at how much weight and you didn't even feel it in the stick. Then you run it again and double check the vibration on the computer box. It may be ok or it may suggest you move a weight or add more, just depends. You may run your engine 2-3 times or 8-10, but your tranny and engine parts that aren't vibrating anymore will love you. Two strokes are more vunerable than 4 strokes and need to be balanced, also. I have tried, in the earlier days, those add on balance devices with different things in them. They really only help if you are shaking bad, but you are still way out of balance, you just can't feel it as much anymore. If you need proof put the balance device on and then get the dynamic balance done and it will enlighten you right away. If one other person here on the forum would get a balance and see how far out they most likely are then I think there will be believers. I'm only trying to help everyone have a fun, with less long term maint. issues. :D -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104137#104137 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:29 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: AN AMSOIL STATEMENTS... From: knowvne@aol.com THIS FROM AMSOIL Hello Mark, I am sending you some information on Amsoil for your Tundra. I must tell you that Amsoil has no oil that is Aircraft approved. They used to but no longer. Ken Deemer Superior Oils & Lubricants 8555 E. Wesson Ct. Claremore, OK. 74019 1-877-237-6323 or 1-918-269-0081 ken@oilsandlube.com www.oilsandlube.com Are their 2 stroke oils approved for aircraft engine use??? Mark ________________________________________________________________________ from AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:25 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings | | -Dana Dana: I don't pay that much attention to them at Lakeland or OSH, but I have yet to see one land in 10 feet. Maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention. Sometimes they bust their ass taking off and attempting to land. That gets lots of laughs from the rail birds on the fence. If I ever get to the point I want to fly one of them, I will transfer over to a PPG email forum. For now, I will remain on the Kolb List, fly and enjoy my Kolbs, as I have for the last 23 years. Really do not see a new aircraft of any type in my future. I have no desire to fly 25 mph maxed out or land in a 10 ft strip. Had plenty experience doing that in the Army. Main difference between a PPG and an AH-1G is about 200 mph and a hell of a lot larger ordnance load. ;-) Many situations I find myself I would be flying backwards. That wouldn't work well. And again, I like my engine mounted to my airframe and not my back. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings From: knowvne@aol.com Dana Both the flying fish and the Jelly fish have a purpose But only the flying fish has a brain... 8-) hahahahaha Mark Vaughn -----Original Message----- From: jhauck@elmore.rr.com To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 3:39 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings | Dana: I don't pay that much attention to them at Lakeland or OSH, but I have yet to see one land in 10 feet. Maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention. Sometimes they bust their ass taking off and attempting to land. That gets lots of laughs from the rail birds on the fence. If I ever get to the point I want to fly one of them, I will transfer over to a PPG email forum. For now, I will remain on the Kolb List, fly and enjoy my Kolbs, as I have for the last 23 years. Really do not see a new aircraft of any type in my future. I have no desire to fly 25 mph maxed out or land in a 10 ft strip. Had plenty experience doing that in the Army. Main difference between a PPG and an AH-1G is about 200 mph and a hell of a lot larger ordnance load. ;-) Many situations I find myself I would be flying backwards. That wouldn't work well. And again, I like my engine mounted to my airframe and not my back. john h mkIII ________________________________________________________________________ from AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:55 PM PST US From: "Vic Peters" Subject: Kolb-List: Vinyl Graphics John H., I returned an email to you but am not sure you recieved it. Vic Do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:54 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Monument Valley 2007 Hi Gang: List mail is a little slow today. I can't shoot Pontiac Red Aerothane until it rains, and it isn't going to rain today. So........Who is coming to MV 2007? Off the top of my head: John Williamson Jim Heffren John Bickham (you are going to fly the mkIII out, aren't you?) Boyd Young John Hauck Steven Green Larry Cottrell and Karen Arty Trost George Thompson Jim and John Clayton? Will Uribe Dave Raines Larry Bourne That's good enough for a starter. If I missed you, add your name to the list. john h mkIII DO NOT ARCHVE ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:17 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vinyl Graphics Hi Vic: Got the email and the attachment. Will let you know what I plan to do when I make that decision. Right now I am trying to get the old bird flying in time to fly to Lakeland. My how time flies. john h ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:34 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Vinyl Graphics | | Got the email and the attachment. Kolb Listers: The above was intended bc, but I failed to look at the reply to address before I hit the send button. 20,000 xin loi, GI. john h mkIII DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:58 PM PST US From: Dana Hague Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings At 03:39 PM 3/31/2007, John Hauck wrote: > >I don't pay that much attention to them at Lakeland or OSH, but I have >yet to see one land in 10 feet. Maybe I wasn't paying close enough >attention. Sometimes they bust their ass taking off and attempting to >land. That gets lots of laughs from the rail birds on the fence. Actually 10 feet would be a LONG landing... one or two steps is typical. Takeoff can be anywhere from one or two steps (with some breeze) to maybe a 100' run with no wind ahd high density altitude, depending on the pilot's technique. >If I ever get to the point I want to fly one of them, I will transfer >over to a PPG email forum. For now, I will remain on the Kolb List, >fly and enjoy my Kolbs, as I have for the last 23 years. Really do >not see a new aircraft of any type in my future. That's cool, to each his own. I'm here to talk about Kolbs too, not PPG. As you say there are forums for that, too. I only mentioned PPG for sake of comparison. -Dana -- -- The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve. The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:21 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Torque effects reduced From: "David Lucas" > "Bubba Jones' PURIFIED PROPWASH". (available at only the best > aviation parts suppliers.) You'll find it just down the aisle opposite the Sea Foam stocks ! David. Do Not Archive ! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104162#104162 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:43 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Prop Balance At 11:47 AM 3/31/07 -0700, you wrote: > > >Two strokes are more vunerable than 4 strokes and need to be balanced, also. > Roger, I am curious, why this is so? Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:48 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Monument Valley 2007 From: "John Williamson" Hey John H. I guess since you have my name on the list I'll go to Monument Valley. The List has been slow today because every Kolbra in Texas had to go flying today. Flew down to Georgetown and back. Put 3.4 hours on the Kolbra. Only got lost twice! No Not Archive. -------- John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolbra, 912ULS http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104168#104168 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:19 PM PST US From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Monument Valley 2007 I will be there. John Williamson Jim Heffren John Bickham (you are going to fly the mkIII out, aren't you?) Boyd Young John Hauck Steven Green Larry Cottrell and Karen Arty Trost George Thompson Jim and John Clayton? Will Uribe Dave Raines Larry Bourne Rick Neilsen Rick Neilsen Redrive VWpowered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hauck" Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 4:59 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Monument Valley 2007 > > Hi Gang: > > List mail is a little slow today. I can't shoot Pontiac Red Aerothane > until it rains, and it isn't going to rain today. > > So........Who is coming to MV 2007? > > Off the top of my head: > > John Williamson > Jim Heffren > John Bickham (you are going to fly the mkIII out, aren't you?) > Boyd Young > John Hauck > Steven Green > Larry Cottrell and Karen > Arty Trost > George Thompson > Jim and John Clayton? > Will Uribe > Dave Raines > Larry Bourne > > That's good enough for a starter. If I missed you, add your name to > the list. > > john h > mkIII > > DO NOT ARCHVE > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:04 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL From: N27SB@aol.com >It is interesting to look at an example of a Tail-less Pusher like a Long-EZ and see the results. On mine with a 160 hp engine and a 64x79 pitch wide blade prop there was almost no rudder change across idle to full power. P factor and torque are real issues but I agree with the Kolb Masters that the main culprit is wash on the vertical tail. Steve and Kolbers, Out of curiosity, I looked at the magnitude of the propeller torque that has to be resisted by the FireFly in the roll axis for level flight. Assuming that under cruise conditions the engine is developing a torque of 40 foot pounds. Multiplying by the belt ratio (2.7) gives 108 foot pounds torque that the air frame must resist. To compensate most add trim some where in the roll control system. Another possibility is that one could add weight to the propeller down swing wing tip to dynamically balance out the torque. I would have to add 108/11 or 9.82 pounds to the right wing tip to prevent torque roll off at cruise. For those who are moving up the hp scale, the amount could easily double and triple. I would not want to try to takeoff or land a FireFly with a 10 pound weight on one wing tip. Not practical but interesting. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:56 PM PST US From: "Rick Pearce" Subject: Kolb-List: Flyofftime I just got my plane inspected two weeks ago and was only given a 25 hour fly off period. 50 mile radius instead of 50 dia which surprised me. To change the subject I received a phone call Thursday night that my buddy had been caught by a thunder storm in his Fire Star and was forced down just a mile away from my strip. He managed to put it down on a road between a power line and a fence on a narrow gravel road. Not to bad for dead stick landing with so much rain that he couldn't see . Caught a fence post with the left wing. Punched a few holes in his wings bent a gear and messed up his nose pod. He walked away OK.Him & I were sure drowned rats by the time we got the wings folded and the plane on a car trailer in a thunder storm allot of wind and lighting. I told him he owes me a beer. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:01 PM PST US From: N27SB@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Rudder Trim tabs for MIIIC w/ 912UL In a message dated 3/31/2007 10:58:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, orcabonita@hotmail.com writes: That say a lot for Bryans building skills. If all the trim tabs on all his planes all turn out to be the same, thats as close to perfect as you will ever get. Mike Mike, Its not just his planes, on any Kolb built fairly straight, he will recommend the same thing. When he recovered my Firefly (Duanetheplane built) he mounted the same tab. Result, the Firefly flew straight. steve do not archive ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:24 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Weight and Balance Paul Petty wrote: > > Hey Gang, > > I am about ready to record the W&B of Ms Dixie. So I am asking questions from others and gathering as much info as possible about the correct proccedre for this. John W was so kind to send me a spread sheet on his results as well as Mark G. on how he did his. Thanks guys! I have learned one thing for sure, one cant ask to many questions from to many people to learn how to do a task. You only need to be smart enough to do whats right for you so that you understand the task at hand. In this case I also asked a good friend to help explain this to me and thought I might share his thoughts with the list and future builders. > > "Just wanted to send this after we talked. > The datum is any point on the airplane where all measurements will be > taken from, in your case the nose with a plumb bob to the floor. > An arm is simply a distance from the datum to another point where you > are taking a weight, ie, center of the main wheel axles and the center > of the tailwheel with the plane in the level flight position. > The moment is the multiplication of the weight at any point times the > distance aft of the datum to that point,ie, distance X weight = moment > add the total weight and the total moments then divide the total > weight into the total moment the resultant number is the CG or where > the airplane will balance if you put the fuse across a bar or > 2x4.expressed in inches aft of the datum. > when you know the empty balance point you can do some weight and > balance calculations for different loadings using the same formula. > You will need to know the distance in inches of the center of the > front seat aft of the datum,center of the rear seat,center of the > fuel tank and any other place you might add or take off weight at some > time. like a cargo compartment. > Then make up a maximum weight you might ever put there, or use your > weight if you wish. do the weight aft of the datum x the distance to > the seat and the other two measuerments you did already using the > wheels. add all together and divide and you have the new CG with this > configeration. do it with full fuel @ 6 pounds per gallon for a full > tank and one with almost empty. if you stay in the envelope you r > gold.then do it for someone in the rear seat and do it the same way. > You will have to watch the useful load so you dont load over gross. > Please send $500,000.00 for this advice > Tom" > > > Hope this may help someone and if any see any holes in this as you can tell very expensive advice have at it! > > -------- > Paul Petty > Kolbra #12 > Ms Dixie > Final assembly! A few quick thoughts. Datum needs to be a known distance from the wing. Is the nose pre-drilled to the frame? If not, you could move the datum quite a bit meaning the CG might not fall where you expect on the chord of the wing. (It would be like using the tip of the spinner on a tractor type plane but not specifying the spinner length.) Do the Kolb plans specify attitude when you do the W&B? Most planes are weighed in flight attitude & perfectly level from side to side. Tail weight can vary a *lot* depending on whether the plane is level. Using one scale would mean a platform the height of the scale for the other main wheel. Most procedures specify ramps to get the mains on the scales. That's 'cause if you pick up the plane & lower it on the scales, the side load as the mains try to spread out again can affect the scale readings. Weighing should be inside with doors shut, no wind, fans, etc (affects scale readings). The Kolb might fly fine without these details, but it's SOP on homebuilts. FWIW, Charlie Fly it up to Slobovia when you get your A/W cert. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:31 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Comparing Kolbs and Non-Rigid Wings From: "JetPilot" Taking off and landing in 10 feet is cool, but not at the expense of totally giving up cross country flying. Every PPG event or club I ever see, the guys are lucky to ever get out of the pattern, and even then, they dont stray far. PPG's seem downright boring to me. Not to mention the wind problem with those things, they are just to limited in performance for me to ever consider. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! 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