Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:25 AM - Re: Re: Monument Valley 2007 (pat ladd)
2. 03:37 AM - Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points (pat ladd)
3. 05:10 AM - Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points (Eugene Zimmerman)
4. 05:42 AM - Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points (FS2Kolb@aol.com)
5. 06:14 AM - Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points (Vic Peters)
6. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: Monument Valley 2007 (TheWanderingWench)
7. 06:37 AM - Fw: gummint (robert bean)
8. 07:32 AM - Service bulletins (Jimmy)
9. 09:18 AM - Re: Service bulletins (Thom Riddle)
10. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Monument Valley 2007 (Bob Noyer)
11. 10:43 AM - Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points (Bob Noyer)
12. 01:09 PM - Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points (David Lehman)
13. 01:16 PM - Ground Idea (Paul Petty)
14. 07:30 PM - Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points (Dana Hague)
15. 08:35 PM - Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points (JetPilot)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Monument Valley 2007 |
All you need is a hefty appetite an Iron stomach and a steady hand. BYOC
>>
Hi Craig,
sounds too good to miss. BYOC ????
Bring your own ...
Coffee?
Coca Cola?
Cheese?
Chips?
Chairs?
Chameleon?
Coronet?
Cornet?
Cordwainer?
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points |
What it takes to bend that pin at a one inch spread,........ on a heavy MK
III. >>
Hi Michael,
I can give you something to work on.
If you accelerate a Mark111 with a Jabiru engine full throttle over about 50
yards from a standing start and hit a vertical RSJ with the port wing just
outside the lift strut attachment point it will bend the front attachment
pin approc 3/16 of an inch. It will also distort the cockpit cage.
Dont ask...
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points |
OUCH ! THAT HURT !
On Apr 6, 2007, at 6:36 AM, pat ladd wrote:
> If you accelerate a Mark111 with a Jabiru engine full throttle over
> about 50 yards from a standing start and hit a vertical RSJ with
> the port wing just outside the lift strut attachment point it will
> bend the front attachment pin approc 3/16 of an inch. It will also
> distort the cockpit cage.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points |
Whats an RSJ?
In a message dated 4/6/2007 4:37:38 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
pj.ladd@btinternet.com writes:
If you accelerate a Mark111 with a Jabiru engine full throttle over about 50
yards from a standing start and hit a vertical RSJ with the port wing just
outside the lift strut attachment point it will bend the front attachment
pin approc 3/16 of an inch. It will also distort the cockpit cage.
Dont ask...
Cheers
Pat
do not archive
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points |
Whats an RSJ?
Recreational sport Jaguar
do not archive
Vic
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Monument Valley 2007 |
Pat -
I can't believe you left out the most important "C"
word - it's chocolate, of course!
Arty
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--- pat ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com> wrote:
> <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
>
> All you need is a hefty appetite an Iron stomach and
> a steady hand. BYOC
> >>
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> sounds too good to miss. BYOC ????
>
> Bring your own ...
> Coffee?
> Coca Cola?
> Cheese?
> Chips?
> Chairs?
> Chameleon?
> Coronet?
> Cornet?
> Cordwainer?
>
> Cheers
>
> Pat
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
Message 7
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Listers, the following is a note I sent to Thom Riddle. -Too lazy
to retype it.
Just wondering if any of you got the same request and your opinions.
BB, still haven't wandered down to the workshop to visit my lonely
MkIII
>
> Good morning Thom, Did you get the mailing from the FAA this past
> winter to fill
> out the online questionnaire? It consisted of what avionics you
> have on board.
>
> I did, with some hesitation, fill it out. Laughable because I had
> none of the listed
> gadgets. My concern is with the user fee subject being tossed
> around now.
>
> Back in the 70s I used to return a form to the feds stating how
> many hours I had
> flown my plane each year. -seemed harmless until one day I received
> a bill from
> the IRS for several back years of the "air use tax". I'm not
> making this up.
> Several hundred dollars including interest and penalty. This being
> at a time when
> I had a young family and money was tight. I had not a clue
> beforehand that such a tax
> existed and was especially galling in that the FAA provided me with
> zero services.
> -Still don't.
> So I don't think I'm being paranoid on the subject, just suspicious.
> BB
Message 8
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| Subject: | Service bulletins |
When I try to access the Rotax service bulletins from the listings of
service bulletins I get a blank page. What am I doing wrong. I am signed
in with my password.
Jimmy Hankinson
912-863-7384
Firefly #035, (N6007L)
JYL (Sylvania, Ga.)
Pegasus Field (Home)
2000 Feet X 100 Feet- Grass
Rocky Ford, Georgia
Do Not Archive
--
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Service bulletins |
Jimmy,
Are you using this link page?
http://www.rotax-owner.com/
If so, try using the guest login instead of your user name and password, in case
there is a problem with authenticating your login data.
do not archive
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Have you noticed since everyone has a camcorder these days no one talks about
seeing UFOs like they used to?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=105330#105330
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Monument Valley 2007 |
Gnaw, not choclit, it's (bi)Carbonate!
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archve
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points |
RSJ= Real Stout Joist
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points |
Mike...
Take a look at what holds the Luscombe (heavier than a Cub) wing spar to the
fuselage carry-through... An aluminum pin, drilled at both ends and held in
place with cotter pins...
DVD
do not archive
On 4/5/07, JetPilot <orcabonita@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The two pins on each end of the wing strut have the most force on them
> then the pins in the center section, but not a huge amont... The two strut
> pins have something like 25 % more force on them than the pin that attaches
> to the wing center section. But the huge bending moment caused by that
> large 1 inch gap makes that one the one that will fail first... What it
> takes to bend that pin at a one inch spread, I cannot find a spec on that
> anywhere. I would be ok with this on a FireStar, or FireFly, but not on a
> heavy MK III. Have you ever seen how thick the wing attach bolts are on a
> J-3 Cub, they are about twice the streingth of what the MK III is for the
> same weight class plane.
>
> To help this, I have gone to NAS hardware which is about 20 % stronger
> than AN hardware, and I am using a bolt and nut, so that if it does bend,
> one end will not pull out. I will be drilling that out and going to a
> bigger diameter bolt there just to be sure. I would also like to drill out
> and go one size bigger bolts on the strut ends, but it it might remove to
> much material from the ends and cause weakness in the 4130 metal of the wing
> strut end, so I will not. These have much less bending moment, so are not
> as likely to fail as the center section as can be seen in the pictures
> below. Larry had a good idea of putting a spacer in the lower attach point
> pin to keep the stress to one side of it. That will put almost all the
> stress on one side of the fitting, but will keep that bolt stressed in sheer
> instead of bending force. I will use a bunch of washers to do this. I
> will also be careful to make sure I do not put to many in so that it does
> not cause this fitting!
> to be tight. Making this tight instead of free floating could cause
> fatigue on the strut end and cause a fialure over time. Remember the tail
> that fatigued fialed when its foward fitting was not allowed to float free ?
>
> Attached are pictures so you all can see what I am talking about, and if
> any one has any more ideas or sees something I dont by all means respond to
> this thread.
>
> Michael Bigelow
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have
> !!!
>
>
Message 13
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Hey guys,
I came up with this idea for a good ground attach point for the ground cable to
airframe point. Its a GM side post extention that is made for external amps in
cars and I think it will work better than just bolting the cable end to the
airframe. It is made out of brass and with dieletric compound should make a nice
solid connection. If any want the part number let me know. They are available
at any NAPA store. Also there is a "thinner" 3/8" nut for the back side of
it that can be found on a GM starter. It leaves the "2 threads" extruded that
the DAR's like. Someone may can come up with an AN nut. I just robbed a starter
and used the star shaped locking washer. [Wink]
--------
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
Final assembly!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=105359#105359
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p4050038_118.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p4050039_163.jpg
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points |
At 08:06 PM 4/5/2007, JetPilot wrote:
>
>The two pins on each end of the wing strut have the most force on them
>then the pins in the center section, but not a huge amont... The two strut
>pins have something like 25 % more force on them than the pin that
>attaches to the wing center section. But the huge bending moment caused
>by that large 1 inch gap makes that one the one that will fail
>first... What it takes to bend that pin at a one inch spread, I cannot
>find a spec on that anywhere....
>To help this, I have gone to NAS hardware which is about 20 % stronger
>than AN hardware...
I've been kinda wondering about that too, so I looked at the numbers. On
my Ultrastar, the wing attachment with the 1" gap is in the rear, using a
1/4" diameter clevis pin. That pin is rated at 7360# double shear, which
would seem to be no problem... but it's not really loaded in
shear. Bending is indeed another matter. Figuring the bending loads on
that pin very roughly, if the fitting is exactly in the center and is 1/8"
thick, the clevis pin will hold 877# (with no safety factor). If you can
space it all the way to one side, then the single shear strength of 3680#
would be in effect... but on the Ultrastar you can't control where it ends
up. However, on the US this attachment sees only drag loads so it's
probably OK... though there would be added loads due to aileron
deflection. Does make me wonder if there was ever a published maneuvering
speed for this plane, though...
If the gap at a fitting is less than 1", the bending stresses on the pin go
down proportionately. A 5/16" pin is 1.56X as strong in shear and 2.44X as
strong in bending; a 3/8" pin is 2.25X and 5.06X, respectively. Good
design practice dictates that a fitting be designed so that it can be
drilled out for the next larger size fastener if necessary (in case of
wear), but not necessarily the next size over that.
On the lift strut and inboard wing attachment at the main spar, the wing
strut takes the bulk of the vertical load (exactly all the vertical load
if it attaches exactly at the midpoint of the wing panel). However, the
tension in the lift strut is twice the vertical load (assuming a strut
angle of 30, which is about right), thus the tension in a lift strut is
approximately equal to the airplane's weight plus any tail downforce. I
don't know how much gap there is on the later models' strut attachment but
on the US it's a pretty close fit.
On the forward wing root attachment, there's little or no vertical load,
but it has to oppose the inward force from the lift strut, which is the
strut tension times cos(30) or 87% of the plane's weight... so that's the
force on that pin or bolt.
Of course, none of the above takes into account flight load factors or
required safety factors.
I don't know the specs of the NAS hardware you're using, but I'm not sure I
like that idea... I hate to second guess the designer, especially on a
proven design, and a stronger bolt will be more brittle... fatigue may
become an issue, especially if the bolt gets worn or nicked.
Eeek, too much thinking for a Friday night... :)
-Dana
--
--
The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve.
The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Wing Attach Points |
Hi Dana,
That is a very good analisys of the loads on the pins, where did you get the figures
for bending the pins across 1 inch ? According to your figures, the pin
is only 1/10 th as strong when the load is bending instead of sheer, which seems
about right.
There is very little force on the trailing edge attachment of a Kolb, I would not
worry at all about that. My MK III weighs almost 3 times what the Ultrastar
and the Firefly do, but uses the same size pins... What is not an issue on
some planes could be on others.
The one thing I think you got wrong is the stress on that center pin that I am
talking about. It is more than the weight of the airplane. With the struts at
45 degrees it would be the the same as the aircraft weight, having the strut
go out at a 60 degree angle from vertical makes it 1.7 times the weight of the
plane, or 1700 pounds at 1 G on my MK III. The spar is being forced inwards
by the struts at a 60 degree angle from the load, I think you just used the
wrong part of the triangle.
NAS 6600 hardware is used as aircraft structrual bolts, and is used in many airplanes
for very high stress wing spar attachment ( Low wing planes with no struts
). This type of bolt was recommended to me by an airline structrual inspector.
I searched the applications and confirmed this to be true before switching
bolts.
To put the next size bigger pin in, I will have to be careful to drill the holes
larger only inwards, taking care not to make the holes any closer to the edges,
but there is plenty of material to do this. See the attached picture.
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=105403#105403
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ultralightmikekolbdetail01_08_2007_11_416.jpg
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