Today's Message Index:
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1. 03:12 AM - Re: A/N hardware torque specs (Thom Riddle)
2. 05:03 AM - Monument Valley 2007 (John Hauck)
3. 06:36 AM - Re: FireFly prop (jimhefner)
4. 08:06 AM - Re: A/N hardware torque specs (icrashrc)
5. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: FireFly prop (Eugene Zimmerman)
6. 10:20 AM - Re: FireFly prop (jimhefner)
7. 10:37 AM - torque chart (boyd)
8. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: FireFly prop (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
9. 11:10 AM - Homer Kolb's Farm with runway for sale? (marcus kolb)
10. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: FireFly prop (Eugene Zimmerman)
11. 05:18 PM - The whole truth....Firefly Prop (Flycrazy8@aol.com)
12. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: FireFly prop & others (HShack@aol.com)
13. 06:27 PM - Ultrastar wings (Mark Shimei)
14. 06:51 PM - Re: Monument Valley 2007 ()
15. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: FireFly prop (Dana Hague)
16. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: FireFly prop & others (Eugene Zimmerman)
17. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: FireFly prop & others (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
18. 08:39 PM - Re: Re: FireFly prop & others (HShack@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: A/N hardware torque specs |
Here is an on-line source:
http://www.raskcycle.com/techtip/webdoc14.html
Thom in Buffalo
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| Subject: | Monument Valley 2007 |
Morning Gang:
Tuesday morning finally got here at 0430. ;-(
Got the truck loaded with all my gear, airplane gas, and all the other
little stuff that needs to go on a long cross country flight in a
Kolb. Soon as I finish up my coffee, I will head out for Gantt
International Airport, a mere 3 miles of twisty, country, Alabama back
roads away.
Weather is good here, but will be encoutering thunderstorms and rain
along my flight route to Conway, AR, just north of Little Rock, and
beyond.
Steven Green is departing Athens, TN, this morning and will meet me at
Conway. If we still feel good, we will continue on to Mena, AR, to
RON. If not, we will RON, Conway.
Expect to spend tomorrow night in the Albuquerque, NM, area. That
will set us up for an arrival at MV around noon on Thursday.
Hope everyone has a safe, fun flight out and back.
See ya'll there,
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop |
A 3 blade prop should out climb a 2 blade prop when everything is apples - apples....
different props and configs on different type aircraft don't tell you much
conclusive about the props. Comparing a Firefly climb and cruise to a GT400
is apples and molasses... :) Sorry, I couldn't resist.... no offense intended!
--------
Jim Hefner
Kolbless in Tucson :(
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| Subject: | Re: A/N hardware torque specs |
Thanks all. I now have what i need.
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop |
But a two blade prop will out perform a three blade every time when
everything is optimized, especially prop diameter and prop speed.
On May 15, 2007, at 9:35 AM, jimhefner wrote:
>
> A 3 blade prop should out climb a 2 blade prop when everything is
> apples - apples.... different props and configs on different type
> aircraft don't tell you much conclusive about the props. Comparing
> a Firefly climb and cruise to a GT400 is apples and molasses... :)
> Sorry, I couldn't resist.... no offense intended!
>
> --------
> Jim Hefner
> Kolbless in Tucson :(
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112922#112922
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop |
Eugene said: But a two blade prop will out perform a three blade every time when
everything is optimized, especially prop diameter and prop speed.
Eugene, you might be right, but according to my limited research back in the early
days of my Firefly, a 3 blade prop, also optimized on length and pitch will
out climb a 2 blade (more bite), but a 2 blade wins on all other scores, including
cruise (less drag). I had a 2 blade IVO on a 4" extender on the 447 and
was very happy with it's performance, including climb, but I didn't care to
climb at 1100'/min either.
--------
Jim Hefner
Kolbless in Tucson :(
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I copied the torque chart from the
Faa advisory circular
Ac 43.13-1b
Acceptable methods, techniques, and practices --- aircraft inspection and
repair.
Get a copy at http://www.brigham.net/~byoung/torque.jpg down size the
picture to print on a page and store it with your plans.
Boyd
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop |
This is just my experience with props but I have better climb rate with a two
blade prop eventhough the three blade runs with less vibration and in more
than one case I have found the same results but this might change if you have
more power than I have in the 447 Rotax
Ellery in Maine
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| Subject: | Homer Kolb's Farm with runway for sale? |
Hi folks!
Since I live here and Im Homers son, I figured I could clear this up a bit.
The place listed is John Steimers farm which forms the other end of our Group B airport 43PA. http://www.airnav.com/airport/43PA
If you look at http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=580+wall+street+phoenixville+pa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=60.158465,95.185547&ie=UTF8&ll=40.157869,-75.544825&spn=0.014415,0.023239&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1 You can see the runway with a tree line in about the middle. To the West is Johns farm and to the East is our farm.
Johns property is gorgeous and the pond is larger now then in the satellite picture.
The runway is huge 3200 x 100 wide and flat. Sadly this is the only
one like it around and you could never create a new one anywhere around here
with todays zoning restrictions. I learned to fly on this runway by crow hopping
the Kolb flyer on this wonderful, long stretch of runway.
John is in no hurry to sell since he put so much effort into extending our runway and really loves the property and just hates the idea of putting in a housing development which would not only kill his end of the runway but would most likely cut down our remaining 1200 with obstructions. Im getting nervous since a nice development offer to John could wipe it out and he will eventually sell it. This would make a great flight park either with a large common hangar or each house with its own hangar (farm building). We are in Chester county and if a property is over 10 acres it can qualify for reduced taxes and fewer township hassles under 319 (its considered a farm). http://dsf.chesco.org/chesco/cwp/view.asp?a=1413&q=573695
Stop in or fly in Id be happy to take anyone on a tour.
Regards,
Marcus Kolb
Director of Research and Development
VideoRay, LLC
marcus.kolb@videoray.com
---------------------------------
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop |
Jim, I'll agree a three blade may be "better" it you factor in
personal preference. ;^)
On May 15, 2007, at 1:20 PM, jimhefner wrote:
> I had a 2 blade IVO on a 4" extender on the 447 and was very happy
> with it's performance, including climb, but I didn't care to climb
> at 1100'/min either.
Message 11
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| Subject: | The whole truth....Firefly Prop |
But a two blade prop will out perform a three blade every time when
everything is optimized, especially prop diameter and prop speed.
On May 15, 2007, at 9:35 AM, jimhefner wrote:
>
> A 3 blade prop should out climb a 2 blade prop when everything is
> apples - apples.... different props and configs on different type
> aircraft don't tell you much conclusive about the props. Comparing
> a Firefly climb and cruise to a GT400 is apples and molasses... :)
> Sorry, I couldn't resist.... no offense intended!
>
> --------
> Jim Hefner
> Kolbless in Tucson :(
No offense taken Jim
I should have added that the GT400 has a Rotax 503 with that Ivo Prop .
Maybe why he can out climb my 447 3 -blade Warp . I took that it was the
shorter wing area on the Firefly compared to the longer wing and thus more wing
area on the GT400 . .......What say You ?
I cruise at 65 or 70 mph (indicated) ... The GT 400 cruises at 55 or 60 .
Sorry for not giving the truth and not the whole truth
Stephen Baxley
Firefly 2003 / 035
S.W. Georgia
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop & others |
In a message dated 5/15/2007 11:54:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
etzim62@earthlink.net writes:
But a two blade prop will out perform a three blade every time when
everything is optimized, especially prop diameter and prop speed
Outperform? What does that mean? I have a FS II, 503DCDI, 3.47:1 C Box, &
68" 3 blade Kiev prop; weight of plane is 470 [wet] & I was 275 when the
following results were obtained:
Outclimbed & outran 2 other FS II's; one was grossed same as mine & one 70
lbs lighter. Both had B boxes & with 2 blade props.
The results were the same when I ran a 3 blade Warp, 68" w/ taper tips.
YMMV
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
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I am looking for a set of ultrastar wings, covered or not. Preferably not
damaged or minor damage if I get in a hurry.Im located in Florida,can
travel. Mark 321 268-3273.
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| Subject: | Re: Monument Valley 2007 |
John and I have made it to Russelville, AR.
I was on down-wind to land at Conway and a voice came on the radio asking if that
experimental at Conway was a Kolb. It was John about 15 minutes out. I love
it when a plan comes together. We waited out a thunder storm then made it
to Russellville.
Steven
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop |
The problem with comparing two and three blade props is that you're always
comparing apples with oranges. All things being equal, the two blade prop
should be the better performer... but things are never equal. I'm not that
familiar with the Firefly, so I'm speaking in general terms:
The fewer blades, the more efficient. Yes, a ONE blade prop is most
efficient... but the weight penalty for the counterweight and a crankshaft
strong enough to handle the asymmetric loading probably negates the
advantages. One bladed props have been used successfully on racing model
airplanes, though. The faster the prop is turning, and the smaller the
prop, the bigger the advantage to fewer blades (which is why they work well
on a model engine turning a tiny prop at 20,000+ rpm!)
The only reason to use more than two blades is if the two bladed prop can't
efficiently absorb the engine's power in the space available. Typically
this is due to ground clearance issues (or tail boom clearance in the case
of a Kolb).
Regardless of the number of blades, any prop will be most efficient if the
blade pitch is set so that each point on the prop is acting at the maximum
L/D. This usually involves a compromise (unless you have an adjustable
prop) since you want the prop to perform well both during climb as well as
cruise. A flatter pitch is better for climb and vice versa. Generally you
optimize it for some speed between climb and cruise.
Now, what if your engine produces more power than the prop can handle? It
overspeeds, so you increase the pitch somewhat, effectively you now have
more of a "cruise prop" than a "climb prop". Since you're off the best L/D
point, it's less efficient. However, you can also absorb more power by
adding blade area: making the blades wider, or adding blades (or both...
look at the huge paddles on a T-28). With more blade area you don't have
to add pitch to prevent overspeeding, so you're still in the better L/D
area, or you're back in the "climb prop" area... which explains why the 3
blade props may perform better on takeoff and climb, at the expense of cruise.
-Dana
--
--
Okay, who put a "stop payment" on my reality check?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop & others |
Hey, I dont doubt your experience.
I assume you concluded, based on your experience, that a three-blade
prop will always have the potential to out climb and out run a two
blade?
A prop blade is simply a rotating wing and the reason a two blade
will always have the "potential for better performance is the same
reason high performance sailplanes never have bi-wings.
Performance is maximized by minimizing performance robbing drag
created by the wing tip vortices. A long high aspect wing has better
performance than a shorter bi-wing because the bi-wing has twice as
many drag creating wing tip vortices.
On May 15, 2007, at 8:27 PM, HShack@aol.com wrote:
> I have a FS II, 503DCDI, 3.47:1 C Box, & 68" 3 blade Kiev prop;
> weight of plane is 470 [wet] & I was 275 when the following results
> were obtained:
>
> Outclimbed & outran 2 other FS II's; one was grossed same as mine &
> one 70 lbs lighter. Both had B boxes & with 2 blade props.
>
> The results were the same when I ran a 3 blade Warp, 68" w/ taper
> tips.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop & others |
You should show the other guys how to set there Prop ?
Ellery
do not archive
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: FireFly prop & others |
In a message dated 5/15/2007 11:06:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ElleryWeld@aol.com writes:
You should show the other guys how to set there Prop ?
Ellery
No, some of them have concluded they need to duplicate my setup; others are
quite happy with less than optimal performance.
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
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