Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:12 AM - Re: Re: Federal Regulations, WAS Kolb Firefly (Dana Hague)
2. 04:41 AM - Re: Builders Plans (Rick Lewis)
3. 05:06 AM - Re: Re: Federal Regulations, WAS Kolb Firefly (robert bean)
4. 06:02 AM - Re: Legal FireFly??or not?? (Guy Morgan)
5. 06:55 AM - Re: Federal Funding...now xpndr cert. (planecrazzzy)
6. 07:00 AM - Re: Builders Plans (Rex Rodebush)
7. 07:58 AM - Re: Federal Regulations, WAS Kolb Firefly (George Alexander)
8. 03:23 PM - E LSA vs E AB (davenagy)
9. 04:42 PM - Re: E LSA vs E AB (Richard Girard)
10. 05:33 PM - fuel problem I think? (Arksey@aol.com)
11. 05:39 PM - Re: E LSA vs E AB (davenagy)
12. 06:01 PM - Re: fuel problem I think? (planecrazzzy)
13. 06:07 PM - Re: fuel problem I think? (Jim Kmet)
14. 06:18 PM - Re: fuel problem I think? (beauford T)
15. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: fuel problem I think? (Arksey@aol.com)
16. 07:10 PM - Re: fuel problem I think? (Arksey@aol.com)
17. 07:11 PM - New FireFly Tail Wheel Spring System (Jack B. Hart)
18. 07:12 PM - Re: fuel problem I think? (Arksey@aol.com)
19. 08:01 PM - Re: fuel problem I think? (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
20. 08:18 PM - Re: New FireFly Tail Wheel Spring System (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com)
21. 08:26 PM - Re: fuel problem I think? (WhiskeyVictor36@aol.com)
22. 09:05 PM - Re: fuel problem I think? (Larry Cottrell)
23. 11:53 PM - Re: fuel problem I think? (Tony Oldman)
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| Subject: | Re: Federal Regulations, WAS Kolb Firefly |
At 10:57 PM 7/5/2007, R. Hankins wrote:
>I believe that Sport Pilot was more a response to EAA pressure to allow
>thousands of aging pilots to fly without a medical, than an effort at
>public protection...
There was also pressure on FAA to end "rulemaking by exemption", which was
what the BFI program was.
-Dana
--
--
The only correct outcome to an armed robbery attempt is a dead armed robber.
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| Subject: | Re: Builders Plans |
Thanks everyone for the feed back on the plans. Donnie and Travis are pretty upset
about them also. I can see why there upset sence it's out of there hands
and can't change them thereselves. They work so hard with everyone and will
go out of there way to make the customer happy but yet here's something out of
there control. I know most of you don't live close enough to the factory to
visit and get to know them but even when you talk with them at the fly-in's you
leave with a good feeling about the plane and Kolb Factory.
I've got my kit now and kinda figured out the plans so I'm ready to start.
I really don't exspect any problems but I know if I have questions or get confused,
I have this forum and the guy's at Kolb. :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122491#122491
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| Subject: | Re: Federal Regulations, WAS Kolb Firefly |
re: homeland security....... I don't see how being registered makes
an aircraft less of a security threat
(note, I'm not personally very concerned about "terrerists")
Any gravity flow fuel aircraft like a skyhawk can be ferried away
with a couple of snips with sidecutters.
No electric necessary.
BB DEFINITELY do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Legal FireFly??or not?? |
Howdy Fellas,
If you're selling the Firefly, you can always put the OEM items back on I.e.
small tires, minimal instrument panel, etc. Get it legal and include the
"extras" with the sale. A firefly built by the books, with attention to the
paint especially, should easily fall within limits.
Best Regards,
Guy Morgan
Evergreen Helicopters
2001 Terminal Dr.
Galveston, TX 77554
work: (409) 740-0231
cell: (409) 692-2864
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don G" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 6:50 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Legal FireFly??or not??
>
> Jimmy,
> Back to your question about the worth of a "fat" firefly.
>
> What would it cost to bring it back under 103 compliance?..add that to the
> equasion. More than registering it?
>
> this is what I think...not what I know..just what I think...maybeee...
>
> A legal 103 FireFly might have more value than a non-registered "fat" one.
>
> A 503 Firestar that never had a chance of making 254 lbs unless you left
> the wing off...will be worth more legal as an E-LSA than not.
> Same with Challengers and 503 Titan I's and so on.
>
> There is no "NEW " rule that makes all fat ultralites now illegal,,,they
> always were. They were all required to be registered as an Experimental
> before...now there is just a new rule that allows them to be easily
> "transitioned" to a E-LSA.
> This is the "manna from above" as just someone mentioned.
> No hassle...no documentation...dont even have to be the original builder.
> This is a good thing....make that a GREAT thing. For all those birds that
> have no chance of making 103.
>
> You just need to decide if that FireFly will appeal in the resale market
> to licensed sport pilots...or non-licensed Ultralite pilots.
>
> I am thinking it would be more appealing..therefore worth more...to
> ultralite pilots.
> I certainly dont know this for sure....I just think maybee!!!!!!
>
> IN fact...all legal 103 craft might just get a boost in the market
> appeal...
> maybeeee!
>
> --------
> Don G.
> Central Illinois
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Luscombe 8A
>
> http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122436#122436
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Federal Funding...now xpndr cert. |
Update on Getting my Transponder & Alt encoder "Certified"
I got the "sticker" for the Transponder......
But the Alt encoder wouldn't "light-up" their box.....
I took the system out of the aircraft and brought it to D.C. Avionics
He said it would probly take an "hour" ( $97 bucks an hour )
I guess I should have gotten it "bench tested" before I put it in the plane
Oh well, it wasn't hard to take it out...same fer puttin it back in...
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
.
.
.
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122505#122505
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/jaz__mutt_muffs_003_178.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Builders Plans |
I couldn't agree with you more.
I ordered a Mark III but changed it to the "Xtra" when that design came out. I
have the old plans and manual, the later manual and the latest plans.
I also have found that the plans have gone downhill. The plans were redone but
not improved, they have in fact gone the other way. They have many more mistakes
and good tips that were in the previous plans and manuals have been left
out. I have also talked the TNK guys about this and apparently it is out of their
hands. It's a shame because the original plans and manual were in general
very good in my opinion.
The good thing is that the guys on the list are very helpful and you couldn't ask
for better people to work with than Travis and Donnie at TNK.
Rex Rodebush (42 years of mechanical design)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122506#122506
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| Subject: | Re: Federal Regulations, WAS Kolb Firefly |
Having followed and been significantly affected by, "Sport" issues, the most gifted
presenter in the world would have a hard time convincing me that the real
truth was anything other than the medical AND carrying a passenger.
Issues like ".... public protection...." and "....rule making by exemption...."
were positions that could be put out for public consumption, but not, IMO,
sound arguments for the way it all came down.
DL as a validation of the medical requirements to operate anything????????? For
those of you who don't know...... I live in Florida!
My 2 cents worth! (Which is about all that was left after I jumped through the
hoops!)
George Alexander
Sport Pilot
N709FS
d-m-hague(at)comcast.net wrote:
> At 10:57 PM 7/5/2007, R. Hankins wrote:
>
>
> > I believe that Sport Pilot was more a response to EAA pressure to allow
> > thousands of aging pilots to fly without a medical, than an effort at
> > public protection...
> >
> >
>
> There was also pressure on FAA to end "rulemaking by exemption", which was
> what the BFI program was.
>
> -Dana
>
> --
> --
> The only correct outcome to an armed robbery attempt is a dead armed robber.
--------
George Alexander
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122508#122508
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A few years ago I bought an Un-registered Twinstar. To make it legal I got it inspected
and N numbered as an Exp. Amatuer Built with the actual builder listed
on the documents. Now with the Exp LSA option available, I wondering if there
is any way to change the registration to Exp LSA so that I would be able to
perform the annuals?
Dave Nagy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122561#122561
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| Subject: | Re: E LSA vs E AB |
Dave, The grandfathering rules in FAR 21.191 specifically states that the
aircraft must not have been previously certificated.
Rick
On 7/6/07, davenagy <dcnagy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> A few years ago I bought an Un-registered Twinstar. To make it legal I got
> it inspected and N numbered as an Exp. Amatuer Built with the actual builder
> listed on the documents. Now with the Exp LSA option available, I wondering
> if there is any way to change the registration to Exp LSA so that I would be
> able to perform the annuals?
>
> Dave Nagy
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122561#122561
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
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| Subject: | fuel problem I think? |
Hello gang,
Looking for information and advice. We have a firestar ll with a 503 rotax,
dual ignition, dual carbs, pull start, no battery, Grandson experienced a
engine problem which is described as engine rpm=99s dropped off , engi
ne was not
running rough nor sounded or felt rough when rpm dropped, engine rpms came
right back up without engine stopping. He had been airborne about 5 minutes
when
this happened, He came back in and landed and the engine ran ok after the
problem. We checked things over, pulled the carb bowls and things looked o
k.
He took off and flew about a hour with no engine problem. I later flew abou
t
a hour with no problem. A few days later I decided to take a little pitch o
ut
of prop to gain more rpm=99s on take off and after warming up engine
and
testing mags I took off to experience the same problem he had, but i was at
about
300=99 , Rpm=99s dropped a lot to the point I thought it was go
ing to quit. It
did this about 3 times before I got in back on the runway. It acted to me l
ike
the engine was running out of fuel and then would get enough fuel to run ok
.
I checked everything out found nothing wrong and decided to take off again.
Engine again had same problemJust like prior takeoff. This convince
d me to
put it in the hangar and fix the problem. The fuel system is described as
follows. I have all nearly new gas lines, plastic, and recommended type, he
avy
type pulse line. Pulse pump was rebuilt about 40 hours ago, , gascolater sc
reen
is clean , fuel filter with about 20 hours. Primer bulb was new this
spring and has bypass , also a primer in the system. Fuel comes out of the
bottom
of 2 5gal tanks. Tank filler caps are vented. We are fussy about our fuel
and it goes thru a mr funnel when filling the tanks. Carbs rebuilt about 30
hours ago. I have found nothing wrong from inspection except the pulse pum
p
has no weep hole as recommended, also pulse line does not go below pump to
form trap as recommended. So we are going to put on new pump with weep hole
and
correct the pulse line, new fuel filter and test fly it. I wonder about
this also: the pulse pump is about 31=9D about the bottom of the tank
s and the
length of pulse line is 12=9D long. Pump specs call for maximum ris
e of 39=9D.So
we are close to the maximumI am considering a electric fuel pump r
unning
off the engine electrity, not battery and being plumbed in series, not
parallel. I know that some recommend the electric pump be installed in para
llel, but
this is a lot more complicated and messy.and is it really necessar
y?? Sorry
for such a long post.but thanks for your thoughts and input
will let you
know what happens.
Jim Swan firestar ll 503 michigan
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
.
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| Subject: | Re: E LSA vs E AB |
Thanks Rick!
Now I know at least I didn't miss the chance!
Dave Nagy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122579#122579
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
It sounds like slight "Carb Ice" to me.....
I had it happen with a 582.....a few years ago....Had to land
Later my Dad told me that I should have tried to hit the Primer...
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN - FSII/503
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122580#122580
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
Jim, ask yourself, What changed with the plane since your last
uneventful flights, did you add fuel? if so, check the source/Quality.
In other words, I think that your plan you mentioned in the post is the
correct course of action.. Can you extend the fuel hose from the carb, ,
route the hose extension from there back to a fuel can on the ground
under the plane & see if you can get the fuel to siphon back close to
the ground? If so, it's probably not the fuel system/& or clogged
filter.
How about the jetting, ? small piece of dirt that gets released when
RPMs/suction drop? & so on. Like I said, I think you`re on the right
track already. Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Arksey@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 7:32 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: fuel problem I think?
Hello gang,
Looking for information and advice. We have a firestar ll with a
503 rotax, dual ignition, dual carbs, pull start, no battery, Grandson
experienced a engine problem which is described as engine rpm=99s
dropped off , engine was not running rough nor sounded or felt rough
when rpm dropped, engine rpms came right back up without engine
stopping. He had been airborne about 5 minutes when this happened, He
came back in and landed and the engine ran ok after the problem. We
checked things over, pulled the carb bowls and things looked ok. He took
off and flew about a hour with no engine problem. I later flew about a
hour with no problem. A few days later I decided to take a little pitch
out of prop to gain more rpm=99s on take off and after warming up
engine and testing mags I took off to experience the same problem he
had, but i was at about 300=99 , Rpm=99s dropped a lot to
the point I thought it was going to quit. It did this about 3 times
before I got in back on the runway. It acted to me like the engine was
running out of fuel and then would get enough fuel to run ok. I checked
everything out found nothing wrong and decided to take off again. Engine
again had same problemJust like prior takeoff. This convinced
me to put it in the hangar and fix the problem. The fuel system is
described as follows. I have all nearly new gas lines, plastic, and
recommended type, heavy type pulse line. Pulse pump was rebuilt about 40
hours ago, , gascolater screen is clean , fuel filter with about 20
hours. Primer bulb was new this spring and has bypass , also a primer in
the system. Fuel comes out of the bottom of 2 5gal tanks. Tank filler
caps are vented. We are fussy about our fuel and it goes thru a mr
funnel when filling the tanks. Carbs rebuilt about 30 hours ago. I have
found nothing wrong from inspection except the pulse pump has no weep
hole as recommended, also pulse line does not go below pump to form trap
as recommended. So we are going to put on new pump with weep hole and
correct the pulse line, new fuel filter and test fly it. I wonder
about this also: the pulse pump is about 31=9D about the bottom of
the tanks and the length of pulse line is 12=9D long. Pump specs
call for maximum rise of 39=9D.So we are close to the
maximumI am considering a electric fuel pump running off the
engine electrity, not battery and being plumbed in series, not parallel.
I know that some recommend the electric pump be installed in parallel,
but this is a lot more complicated and messy.and is it really
necessary?? Sorry for such a long post.but thanks for your
thoughts and inputwill let you know what happens.
Jim Swan firestar ll 503 michigan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's free at AOL.com.
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
Jim:
Whatever else you check, if it were mine, I'd sure be wanting to yank
the exhaust manifold off and look at the pistons and rings for signs of
scuffing and possible near-seizure... Had similar symptoms with my Nazi
447once... was carboned-up rings which caused it to almost seize. It
bogged down, then recovered for a while and ran normally... I flew on
home and cleaned the fuel system...Started it cold and it ran OK... on
takeoff it bogged again... I looked into the exhaust ports and
instantly saw the problem. I was lucky -- got off with new pistons and
a carbuerator choke piston... Could have easily cost me my fanny.
Just a thought....Worth what ye paid fer it...
Beauford
Firefly 076 / N173BW
Brandon, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Arksey@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: fuel problem I think?
Hello gang,
Looking for information and advice. We have a firestar ll with a
503 rotax, dual ignition, dual carbs, pull start, no battery, Grandson
experienced a engine problem which is described as engine rpm=99s
dropped off , engine was not running rough nor sounded or felt rough
when rpm dropped, engine rpms came right back up without engine
stopping. He had been airborne about 5 minutes when this happened, He
came back in and landed and the engine ran ok after the problem. We
checked things over, pulled the carb bowls and things looked ok. He took
off and flew about a hour with no engine problem. I later flew about a
hour with no problem. A few days later I decided to take a little pitch
out of prop to gain more rpm=99s on take off and after warming up
engine and testing mags I took off to experience the same problem he
had, but i was at about 300=99 , Rpm=99s dropped a lot to
the point I thought it was going to quit. It did this about 3 times
before I got in back on the runway. It acted to me like the engine was
running out of fuel and then would get enough fuel to run ok. I checked
everything out found nothing wrong and decided to take off again. Engine
again had same problemJust like prior takeoff. This convinced
me to put it in the hangar and fix the problem. The fuel system is
described as follows. I have all nearly new gas lines, plastic, and
recommended type, heavy type pulse line. Pulse pump was rebuilt about 40
hours ago, , gascolater screen is clean , fuel filter with about 20
hours. Primer bulb was new this spring and has bypass , also a primer in
the system. Fuel comes out of the bottom of 2 5gal tanks. Tank filler
caps are vented. We are fussy about our fuel and it goes thru a mr
funnel when filling the tanks. Carbs rebuilt about 30 hours ago. I have
found nothing wrong from inspection except the pulse pump has no weep
hole as recommended, also pulse line does not go below pump to form trap
as recommended. So we are going to put on new pump with weep hole and
correct the pulse line, new fuel filter and test fly it. I wonder
about this also: the pulse pump is about 31=9D about the bottom of
the tanks and the length of pulse line is 12=9D long. Pump specs
call for maximum rise of 39=9D.So we are close to the
maximumI am considering a electric fuel pump running off the
engine electrity, not battery and being plumbed in series, not parallel.
I know that some recommend the electric pump be installed in parallel,
but this is a lot more complicated and messy.and is it really
necessary?? Sorry for such a long post.but thanks for your
thoughts and inputwill let you know what happens.
Jim Swan firestar ll 503 michigan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's free at AOL.com.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
Hi mike,
thanks for your suggestion of carb ice...but conditons were not
conducive for carb ice at time......but yes it is possible....thanks Mike....
jim swan firestar ll michigan
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
Hi JIm,
thanks...yur idea about siphon fuel back to a can is a good way to check
resistance in fuel line....thanks....
jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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| Subject: | New FireFly Tail Wheel Spring System |
Kolbers, and FireFlyers,
I really wanted to get away from the tension spring and to use a clevis
spring. I could not find small light weight clevis springs. After several
iterations, I have a new system that uses compression springs in a way that
is equivalent to clevis springs. The new system can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly133.html
I believe the FireFly responds better to rudder pedal input than before,
especially in grass. Shaved off 1.5 ounces. While I was at it I bushed the
holes through which the hinge pin bolt passes.
I hope you have a good 7/7/07.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
Hi Beauford.
thanks.... will check pistons...good thought.....jim swan firestar ll 503
michigan
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
one other thing you might try is pulling the slides out of your carbs and
raising the needle one notch, usually I do this in the spring of the year but
I
didnt this year and ended up doing it later to make my engine purr again as
soon as it started running like that I knew what it was and landed at the next
strip and made the proper adjustment
Just another thought from Maine
Ellery
Do Not Archive
**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
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| Subject: | Re: New FireFly Tail Wheel Spring System |
In a message dated 7/6/2007 10:12:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jbhart@onlyinternet.net writes:
I hope you have a good 7/7/07
Jack,
Make that 07/07/07
BV
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
In a message dated 7/6/2007 11:02:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ElleryWeld@aol.com writes:
you might try is pulling the slides out of your carbs and raising the needle
one notch, usually I do this in the spring of the year
Ellery,
Do you mean raise the needle, by lowering the clip in the groove?
If so, that would allow more fuel mix (richer). I thought it was better to
lean out for the summer because there's less air due to humidity.
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
Do Not Archive
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
Check the squeeze bulb.
Larry C
----- Original Message -----
From: Arksey@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: fuel problem I think?
Hi JIm,
thanks...yur idea about siphon fuel back to a can is a good way to
check resistance in fuel line....thanks....
jim swan firestar ll 503 michigan
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: fuel problem I think? |
Have had similar problem , the problem was the air filter. Take the air
filter off and see if RPMs come back to normal. If they do give the
filter a good clean . The method I use is hot soapy water and then dry
out .I find this needs done about every 25 to 30 hours to prevent
occurrence If its fuel starvation that will not help but pulling the
chock on when the problem occurs will or should momentarily rectify the
problem and point you in the right direction.
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: Arksey@aol.com
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 12:32 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: fuel problem I think?
Hello gang,
Looking for information and advice. We have a firestar ll with a
503 rotax, dual ignition, dual carbs, pull start, no battery, Grandson
experienced a engine problem which is described as engine rpm=99s
dropped off , engine was not running rough nor sounded or felt rough
when rpm dropped, engine rpms came right back up without engine
stopping. He had been airborne about 5 minutes when this happened, He
came back in and landed and the engine ran ok after the problem. We
checked things over, pulled the carb bowls and things looked ok. He took
off and flew about a hour with no engine problem. I later flew about a
hour with no problem. A few days later I decided to take a little pitch
out of prop to gain more rpm=99s on take off and after warming up
engine and testing mags I took off to experience the same problem he
had, but i was at about 300=99 , Rpm=99s dropped a lot to
the point I thought it was going to quit. It did this about 3 times
before I got in back on the runway. It acted to me like the engine was
running out of fuel and then would get enough fuel to run ok. I checked
everything out found nothing wrong and decided to take off again. Engine
again had same problemJust like prior takeoff. This convinced
me to put it in the hangar and fix the problem. The fuel system is
described as follows. I have all nearly new gas lines, plastic, and
recommended type, heavy type pulse line. Pulse pump was rebuilt about 40
hours ago, , gascolater screen is clean , fuel filter with about 20
hours. Primer bulb was new this spring and has bypass , also a primer in
the system. Fuel comes out of the bottom of 2 5gal tanks. Tank filler
caps are vented. We are fussy about our fuel and it goes thru a mr
funnel when filling the tanks. Carbs rebuilt about 30 hours ago. I have
found nothing wrong from inspection except the pulse pump has no weep
hole as recommended, also pulse line does not go below pump to form trap
as recommended. So we are going to put on new pump with weep hole and
correct the pulse line, new fuel filter and test fly it. I wonder
about this also: the pulse pump is about 31=9D about the bottom of
the tanks and the length of pulse line is 12=9D long. Pump specs
call for maximum rise of 39=9D.So we are close to the
maximumI am considering a electric fuel pump running off the
engine electrity, not battery and being plumbed in series, not parallel.
I know that some recommend the electric pump be installed in parallel,
but this is a lot more complicated and messy.and is it really
necessary?? Sorry for such a long post.but thanks for your
thoughts and inputwill let you know what happens.
Jim Swan firestar ll 503 michigan
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6/07/2007 6:36 a.m.
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