---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/18/07: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:25 AM - Re: Two Stroke Prop and Carb Tuning (lucien) 2. 06:44 AM - Re: Mushy control stick (JetPilot) 3. 07:29 AM - Re: Mushy control stick (lucien) 4. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: Mushy control stick (Richard Pike) 5. 07:53 AM - Re: Mushy control stick (Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL) 6. 07:54 AM - Re: Re: Mushy control stick (J.D. Stewart) 7. 08:32 AM - Re: Mushy control stick (JetPilot) 8. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Mushy control stick (Richard Pike) 9. 09:54 AM - Re: Mushy control stick (Paul Petty) 10. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: Mushy control stick (John Hauck) 11. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Mushy control stick (possums) 12. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Mushy control stick (John Hauck) 13. 10:56 AM - MV2007 and EAA Sport Pilot Mag (John Hauck) 14. 10:59 AM - Re: Kolb Mark III fuel tanks (icrashrc) 15. 11:16 AM - Re: Mushy control stick (Paul Petty) 16. 11:24 AM - Re: Mushy control stick (Paul Petty) 17. 11:45 AM - Re: Mushy control stick (Thom Riddle) 18. 11:57 AM - Re: Mushy control stick (Paul Petty) 19. 12:04 PM - Re: Mushy control stick (Paul Petty) 20. 12:11 PM - Re: Re: Mushy control stick (John Hauck) 21. 12:13 PM - Re: Mushy control stick (WillUribe@aol.com) 22. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Mushy control stick (John Hauck) 23. 01:59 PM - Re: Mushy control stick (JetPilot) 24. 03:44 PM - Re: Mushy control stick (Paul Petty) 25. 05:27 PM - Re: Mushy control stick (lucien) 26. 05:39 PM - Re: Mushy control stick (lucien) 27. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Mushy control stick (Richard Pike) 28. 08:19 PM - Re: Mushy control stick (lucien) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:12 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Two Stroke Prop and Carb Tuning From: "lucien" Just FWIW, The same methods appear to work at high density altitudes as well. I fly at about 7000' MSL where I live, the DA is frequently as high as 9000' even in the morning. Basically, the only change I've had to make to the 503 on my FS II is a leaner main jet as per the Rotax jetting chart. Virtually everything else is the same except a very slightly higher rpm needed to maintain altitude at my cruise speed and of course a noticeable improvement in fuel economy. Oh, and a much crappied climb rate, but it's still as good as the local spam cans.... ;) LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124538#124538 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:36 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "JetPilot" I have the same springy feeling in my MK - III Xtra. There is a lot of aileron deflection on the ground, but in the air the ailerons dont deflect that much even with stick deflection. In my case, all the linkages are steel, well supported, and have almsot no play. I do have the seperate flaps and ailerons though, and im sure most of my "SPRINGY" feeling is comming from the aluminum tubes on the wing that go out to the aileron. There must be 6 feet of aluminum tube there before it gets to the aileron, and 6 more in the aileron itself... That could cause a LOT of spring like twist. There is not much I can do about this exept go to a thicker tube, but that would involve a lot of work and given the leingth of it, some springy feeling would always be there. I am going to add aileron spades to the counterweights to take much of the air loads resistance off the ends of the tubes and prevent it twisting so much. That should make for much lighter and more pleasant aileron forces. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124540#124540 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:36 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "lucien" I should mention, speaking of control forces, that my FS II has the lightest forces in all axes of any plane I've flown so far.. The compromise there is it doesn't have huge amounts of control, but of course then again, it's not a Pitts and wasn't designed to be... ;) My titan tornado, for example, has vastly more control, but the stick is a lot heavier in comparison, even with the spades on the ailerons..... I also kicked around some thoughts of modifications of the aileron system on the FS II to take out some of the flex and give more deflection. But that would put me in test pilot territory, with new unknowns as far as additional stress on the ailerons, hinges and possibly even the wing panels and who knows what else........ Also, since the Kolb has been flying for a long time as-is, I figured it's all working as designed. So I haven't messed with it. I still haven't flown in the big Kolbs yet, so I don't know how they are as far as amount of control available and etc. A couple friends of mine in TX have an older MK III and I noted the same flexing in the ailerons. But they fly that plane in conditions I wouldn't think of going up in in my FS II, so.... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124552#124552 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:53 AM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick How do you think the wingtip vortices will interact with those spades? Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:44 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick > > I have the same springy feeling in my MK - III Xtra. There is a lot of > aileron deflection on the ground, but in the air the ailerons dont deflect > that much even with stick deflection. In my case, all the linkages are > steel, well supported, and have almsot no play. I do have the seperate > flaps and ailerons though, and im sure most of my "SPRINGY" feeling is > comming from the aluminum tubes on the wing that go out to the aileron. > There must be 6 feet of aluminum tube there before it gets to the aileron, > and 6 more in the aileron itself... That could cause a LOT of spring like > twist. There is not much I can do about this exept go to a thicker tube, > but that would involve a lot of work and given the leingth of it, some > springy feeling would always be there. I am going to add aileron spades > to the counterweights to take much of the air loads resistance off the > ends of the tubes and prevent it twisting so much. That should make for > much lighter and more pleasant aileron ! > forces. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you > could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124540#124540 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:58 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" << ... at the other end of the control tube up near the rubber U-Joint. >> Paul - Rubber U-Joint? I've not heard of this design feature. (It's not on the M-3 Classic.) Is this unique to the Kolbra? Why would the designers want to "soften" the control transmissions between the control stick and the ailerons? Dennis Kirby ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:48 AM PST US From: "J.D. Stewart" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick Maybe take Kimberly's advice and reflex the ailerons a bit. That might help a lot with the control forces. J.D. > My titan tornado, for example, has vastly more control, but > the stick is a lot heavier in comparison, even with the > spades on the ailerons..... ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:47 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "JetPilot" Richard, I have thought quite a bit about the wingtip vorticies affecting spades on the tips, and I have come to concusion that I have no idea :) I think the only way I will ever know is to try it. I will bolt the spades onto the counterweights so that I can take them off if I dont like the results. Threre is a possibility of the ailerons going hard over if the spades are to big or the vorticies are a big probelm, so I will start out with small ones to see how they act and make them bigger until the releive enough of ths stick pressure. I will also flight test it by flying a foot off the runway and progressively faster speeds to get an idea of what they will do. Lucien, The aileron forces on the MK III Xtra are very heavy, much heavier than on a Cessna 172. I could live with even normal forces, but not the very heavy forces needed to make a turn. The Kolb is not designed to roll fast, and I dont want it to, but I do want to be able to turn the plane without a huge amount of effort. I have thought about wing twist and fatigue of the panels, and I plan to fly the plane within its limits, I just want it to be pleasant and easy to fly. Durring the building phase, I got some good advice from John Hauck and streingthened the wing structure with angle aluminum along the ribs, before and behind the spar. This should make my MK III much more resistant to any fatigue and twisting from aileron forces. Attached is a picture of the wing before covering. Reflexing the ailerons might reduce the aileron forces some, but it is a horrible way to do it. The proper term for reflexed ailerons is "Spoilerons", meaning the ailerons are also acting as spoilers. It may make it a bit easier to roll, but relfexing the ailerons also kills lift, increases stall speed, and makes the wing less efficient. I dont want any of these bad side effects in my plane. Michael Bigelow -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124565#124565 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ultralightmikekolbbuildpictures073_113.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:57 AM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick Find an excuse to get to NE Tennessee & stop by Indian Springs airport and I'll let you fly mine. Light ailerons and all. Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 11:32 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick The aileron forces on the MK III Xtra are very heavy, much heavier than on a Cessna 172. I could live with even normal forces, but not the very heavy forces needed to make a turn. The Kolb is not designed to roll fast, and I dont want it to, but I do want to be able to turn the plane without a huge amount of effort. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:53 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "Paul Petty" Dennis, I guess the rubber u-joint is a Kolbra only design. It is needed to make the bend in the control rod. do not archive -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie 912 UL 70" warp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124589#124589 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:40 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick Mike: The weakest, most flexible part of the Kolb wing is the bow tip. You plan on turning the aileron counterbalance weight into a spade at the weakest, most flexible point, outboard of the wing tip. Might want to think on that a bit. Also, the counterbalance weight attachment was not designed nor intended to have increased torsional loads. Remember, every time you change one thing, it will affect several more in the chain. If it were me, I would look at the geometry of the aileron control from stick to aileron. To get a little more, or a lot more mechanical advantage, it is pretty simple to change the arm length of a bell crank or horn to more effect with less effort. All Kolbs inherently load up the ailerons at speeds over 50 to 60 mph. You ain't gonna change that unless you cut the cord of the aileron in half. Then you lose low speed aileron authority which, to me, is extremely important. Much more important than light stick force at higher speeds. At lower speeds it is easy to move the stick from stop to stop, when it is really needed should you get caught in violent winds and want to be on the ground more than in the air. At higher speeds one does not have to deflect the aileron but a tad to make the aircraft roll. A little rudder input helps. Also a little patience. Like has been said, you ain't flying a Pitts Special. If you are interested in doing snap rolls and aileron rolls then you might need a whole buncha aileron at higher speeds. Kolbs are not to be compared with Cessna 172's, Piper Warriors, Challengers, Titan Tornados, ect. They have very little in common. Kolbs do things differently than most airplanes. Yet, they are very easy to fly and very forgiving, if you don't turn into a design engineer and screw it up. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:55 AM PST US From: possums Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick At 11:32 AM 7/18/2007, you wrote: > >Richard, > >I have thought quite a bit about the wingtip vorticies affecting >spades on the tips, and I have come to concusion that I have no idea :) One of the guys we used to fly with put spades on a Firestar, but he put them in the middle of the ailerons ( I think). John H might remember. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:05 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick make the bend in the control rod. | | do not archive | | -------- | Paul Petty Paul P: Prior to using the very expensive aircraft universal joint in the aileron torque tube, an inhouse designed and fabricated square tube 4130 universal joint was used. This ujoint was not successful. When TNK bought out Old Kolb, TNK upgraded to the aircraft universal. I don't know that it is a rubber ujoint. Never looked inside one. However, I do know they work much better than the old square tube and bolt ujoint, and doubt very seriously they are rubber. This ujoint is utilized in all FSII and Kolbra. Don't know if it is in the FF or not. Personally, before I started chasing something different to change to correct your problem, I would correct the first change you made to your system. You have two serious problems that I could see when I looked at your airplane: 8" more or less of unsupported aileron torque tube on the aft end. An incorrectly fabricated sleeve that is cut 90 degrees, rather than 45 degrees or less. Either of the above can lead to a catastrophic failure of the aileron torque tube. A condition that Kolbs will not successfully fly in. If it were my airplane, as I pointed out to you Sunday at Laurel, MS, I would support the aileron torque tube at the aft end. Sorry I did not point out the bad sleeve joint. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:34 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: MV2007 and EAA Sport Pilot Mag Hi Gang: Wanted to thank John Williamson for sending Mary Jones, Editor of EAA Sport Pilot Mag, some words and photos for the flyin. The story and photos are in the July issue. I would scan and post to the List, but printer is down at the moment. Thanks John W. Well done. john h mIII DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:34 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Mark III fuel tanks From: "icrashrc" Has anyone asked Travis or Donnie about different fuel tank options for the M3X lately? -------- Scott www.ill-EagleAviation.com do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124601#124601 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:49 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "Paul Petty" John, What sleeve are you talking about? do not archive -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie 912 UL 70" warp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124608#124608 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:31 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "Paul Petty" here is the U-Joint. -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie 912 UL 70" warp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124609#124609 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1210049_164.jpg ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:36 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "Thom Riddle" The photo of that "rubber u-joint" looks to me like a regular u-joint with a rubber dust/dirt cover. I'll give you good odds that the connection is NOT rubber. Some 25 or so years ago when I was doing machine design work, we would sometimes use a "rubber" flexible coupling but they were not designed to correct for an angular mis-alignment like this one is obviously doing. The rubber flexible coupling was intended to compensate for very slight axial mis-alignment and prevent transmission of source vibrations throughout the system. -------- Thom in Buffalo N197BG FS1/447 do not archive -------------------- "Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124614#124614 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:31 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "Paul Petty" Thom, I never really thought about it nor looked at it that much. What you say makes sence tho thanks! do not archive -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie 912 UL 70" warp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124618#124618 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:28 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "Paul Petty" wow! never knew there was a tiny U-Joint in there. Looked them up in AC spruce. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ujoints.php do not archive -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie 912 UL 70" warp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124619#124619 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:09 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick | | -------- | Paul Petty That is a rubber dust cover, not a rubber universal joint. john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:28 PM PST US From: WillUribe@aol.com Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick here is the old U-Joint. ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:35 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick in AC spruce. Did you look at the prices??? john h mkIII ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:03 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "JetPilot" John Hauck wrote: > Mike: > > The weakest, most flexible part of the Kolb wing is the bow tip. You > plan on turning the aileron counterbalance weight into a spade at the > weakest, most flexible point, outboard of the wing tip. Might want to > think on that a bit. Also, the counterbalance weight attachment was > not designed nor intended to have increased torsional loads. > > All Kolbs inherently load up the ailerons at speeds over 50 to 60 mph. > You ain't gonna change that unless you cut the cord of the aileron in > half. > > john h > mkIII You are correct that it would put more stress on the bow tip, that could be a problem. The other answer would be to put a spade in the middle of the aileron underneath the wing, which is probably a better solution and gets rid of any unknowns like tip vorticies. Thanks for that advice, it will be a lot of extra work, but if I do this I will put standard spades in the middle of the ailerons. I was wondering why my Kolb was heavy on the ailerons while Richard reports his to be light. I am cruising pretty fast with the 912-S, that is probably why they are stiffening up quite a bit. Mike Bigelow -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124648#124648 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:36 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "Paul Petty" Duh John! Stupid me! [Rolling Eyes] Im going to look over some options ans see about a fix. Thanks for the help. do not archive -------- Paul Petty Kolbra #12 Ms Dixie 912 UL 70" warp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124665#124665 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:02 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "lucien" WillUribe(at)aol.com wrote: > here is the old U-Joint. > > > > > Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com (http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982). Wonderful.. this is what's on my FS II's linkage... Mine's a pre-TNK FS II finished in 98..... So, is this a joint that has hazards and needs replacement or ? LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124682#124682 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:43 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "lucien" jstewart(at)inebraska.com wrote: > Maybe take Kimberly's advice and reflex the ailerons a bit. That might help > a lot with the control forces. > > J.D. > > Hey JD, I thought about it when I read Kimberly's post, but I'm actually used to the feel of it now and the plane flies perfectly the way it is. I think the ailerons ride a hair bit up in the air already anyway... I'm going to look at that next time I'm up. Sorry guys for the brief titan exchange - JD is the seller/builder/co-designer of my titan and builder extraordinaire... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124684#124684 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:54 PM PST US From: "Richard Pike" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick I think it is just not as precision as what they are currently using. On the other hand, it only needs to work in a Kolb, not in a watch... Richard Pike MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucien" Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 8:26 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick > Wonderful.. this is what's on my FS II's linkage... Mine's a pre-TNK FS II > finished in 98..... > > So, is this a joint that has hazards and needs replacement or ? > > LS > > -------- > LS > FS II > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124682#124682 > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:07 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mushy control stick From: "lucien" Richard Pike wrote: > I think it is just not as precision as what they are currently using. On the > other hand, it only needs to work in a Kolb, not in a watch... > > Richard Pike > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > --- Ok, just curious if it was an AD that I needed to call Kolb about or something like that... The plane has about 500 hours on it and hasn't seemed to have problems with this joint, so I was just wondering if it was something that just hadn't been updated but needed to be..... LS -------- LS FS II Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124706#124706 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.