Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:37 AM - Wing root gap seal on FS I (Thom Riddle)
2. 05:43 AM - Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I (Thom Riddle)
3. 06:11 AM - Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I (olendorf)
4. 06:42 AM - Re: OSH 2007 (Russ Kinne)
5. 08:04 AM - Re: OSH 2007 (Russ Kinne)
6. 08:12 AM - Re: needles for 447 (JetPilot)
7. 09:17 AM - Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
8. 10:06 AM - Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I (Thom Riddle)
9. 10:51 AM - Re: Back from Oshkosh (pat ladd)
10. 11:39 AM - Re: Re: OSH 2007 (pat ladd)
11. 12:56 PM - Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I (jb92563)
12. 01:12 PM - Re: OSH 2007 (jb92563)
13. 01:20 PM - Re: Back from Oshkosh, P51s' accident (Bob Noyer)
14. 01:33 PM - Re: Back from Oshkosh, P51s' accident (Michael Sharp)
15. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: OSH 2007, Meigs arpt, NOT (Bob Noyer)
16. 01:49 PM - New to the list (tommy thompson)
17. 01:58 PM - Re: Back from Oshkosh, P51s' accident (flymichigan@comcast.net)
18. 02:20 PM - Re: Kolb tail movement ??? (jb92563)
19. 02:53 PM - Re: Back from Oshkosh, P51s' accident (Eugene Zimmerman)
20. 03:00 PM - Re: New to the list (planecrazzzy)
21. 03:11 PM - Oshkosh 2007 - What a Trip! (John Williamson)
22. 03:35 PM - Re: New to the list (Richard Pike)
23. 03:41 PM - Wing strut vibration (Larry Cottrell)
24. 03:51 PM - Non-Kolb related (Richard Pike)
25. 04:04 PM - Re: Wing strut vibration (Jack B. Hart)
26. 04:05 PM - Re: Non-Kolb related (flymichigan@comcast.net)
27. 04:23 PM - Re: Re: Wing strut vibration (Larry Cottrell)
28. 04:53 PM - Re: Non-Kolb related (Kolbdriver)
29. 05:02 PM - Kolb Tailwheel Springs (JRatcli256@aol.com)
30. 05:09 PM - Registration to Inspection Time Laps (JRatcli256@aol.com)
31. 05:21 PM - Re: Kolb Tailwheel Springs (John Hauck)
32. 06:25 PM - The Truth about the SP-LSA rule (Thom Riddle)
33. 06:30 PM - Re: Re: Wing strut vibration (Jack B. Hart)
34. 06:32 PM - Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I (Thom Riddle)
35. 06:39 PM - Re: Re: Wing strut vibration (Jack B. Hart)
36. 07:04 PM - Re: Re: Wing strut vibration (gary aman)
37. 07:42 PM - Re: Wing strut vibration (John Williamson)
38. 07:42 PM - Re: Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
39. 08:36 PM - Re: Kolb Tailwheel Springs (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
40. 09:18 PM - Re: Re: Wing strut vibration (Larry Cottrell)
41. 11:01 PM - Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
42. 11:04 PM - Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Wing root gap seal on FS I |
Folding/unfolding the wings on the FS I for every flight is not a big deal since
I've built a tail dolly that precludes the need to fold/unfold the tail. But,
the wing root gap seal is a bit of a PITA, especially the aft part.
My question is this:
How important is the aft half of the upper airfoil gap seal? My thought is to cut
the gap seal at about the half way point and eliminate the back/aft part but
would like to hear your thoughts on the subject before doing so.
Keep in mind that my FS I has the canister BRS sticking up high in front of the
engine which probably disturbs the airflow big time in that area anyway.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
Albert Einstein
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I |
Oops! I should have posted a photo of the area I'm talking about. In the attached
photo, I'm thinking of cutting the gap seal cross wise about where the rear
most part of the BRS mount is located, and not use the part aft of that area,
leaving it open.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126872#126872
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I |
My cover ends at the front of the engine. I have no problems. Maybe it would lower
my stall speed a little if it came back farther but I'm happy with it.
--------
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126882#126882
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John
No dragline pic! -- two sunsets & a dowtown pic --
On Jul 31, 2007, at 9:03 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Got back from OSH yesterday. Spent 10 days and 9 nights sleeping
> on the ground. Thank God I can still do it comfortably.
>
> Flew 23.2 hours.
>
> Burned 116.4 gal fuel.
>
> Traveled 1,907.04 sm.
>
> Had a ball!!!
>
> Got to spend the entire week with the Kolb gang in the Kolb
> trailer. Was great to be able to enjoy their company for a week.
>
> Spent the night flying north at Washinton, IN. RON Washington, IN,
> on the way home.
>
> Here are a few photos I took during the flight up and back.
>
> This is a huge drag line in Kentucky on a reclaimed coal strip
> mine. Never really knew how large they were until I landed on the
> gravel road next to it, and taxiied up under the operator's cab.
> Estimate the main boom is over 300 feet long.
>
> The other photos are Lake Michigan. I flew down the lake after the
> wind shifted out of the SE, the direction I wanted to fly to fly
> across it and land in Michigan, 60 miles away. The flight from
> Manitowoc, WI, to Ludington, MI, would be directly over the ferry
> route. I also had on a PFD, just in case. Instead, I flew the
> lake off shore down to Gary, IN, right past downtown Chicago, IL.
> Was a very beautiful and exciting flight over 180 sm of water
> instead of 60. ;-) I am mighty proud of my little mkIII and its
> 912ULS.
>
> I'll probably have to spread these photos out over several posts.
> There are 16 of the many I took on this flight.
>
> --------
> John Hauck
> MKIII/912ULS
> hauck's holler, alabama
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126795#126795
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/0001_02_204.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/0001_02_110.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/0001_01_105.jpg
>
>
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John
Finally got the drag line pix -- awesome!
You averaged 82MPH on your trip @ 5GPH -- that ULS is some engine
Fair winds,
Russ
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| Subject: | Re: needles for 447 |
I also fly with a Rotax 447, and it is rock solid stable at any RPM. I can set
it at 4700 and it will run there all day long, never any of the surging or other
problems mentioned by Thomas. EGT and CHT are fine no matter what RPM I
run the engine at.
It really sounds like a carb probem, or something more serious than just needle
settings Thomas. Check all other possibilities, you will probably be kicking
yourself for doing all this methodical testing of different needles and jets
just to find out it did not matter because of an air leak or other problem.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I |
That's just what I did to my gap seal on my Original firestar it didn't
change the flying characteristics at all
Ellery in Maine N447EB
do not archive
**************************************
all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I |
Thanks, guys. That is what I figured. Mine will be shortened soon.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
Albert Einstein
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| Subject: | Re: Back from Oshkosh |
due to the two mustangs crashing. >>
Hi Will,
do you know which Mustangs?
I flew Crazy Horse with Lee Lauderbeck a few years ago at Kissimmee. The
highlight of my flying career.
Pat
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Hi John,
Lovely pics of the Chicago waterfront. I know it well from my Microsoft
Simulator.
I was never ever able to pull off the landing at Meiggs Field until I had
actually stood on the Pier and watched the planes approaching.. When I tried
the simulator the next time it worked, no problem. Microsoft pics. are not
as good as yours.
Pat
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I |
Is there also a bottom gap seal?
The low pressure air on the top of the wing will be trying to draw the lower wing
side high pressure air up to the top side....if you prevent that by either
a top or bottom seal, I dont think the overall lift of the wing will be altered
much.
If you allow an air path from the underside to the top of the wing at the root
I imagine you will get slightly reduced wing lift plus vortices and turbulence
right in front of your prop.
I know of at least one designed ultralight that advised its owners to NEVER fly
without the wing gap in place...so perhaps there IS a significant effect involved
if you modify yours.
Have no idea what that will do to the control feel on the tail or the turbulence
at the prop, but let us know if it has any noticable effect at all.....your
going to be a Test Pilot!
My 2 cents,
Ray
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
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Awesome pics.
Very cool that you were able to land on the road and check out that huge machine.
Thats why I like Kolbs that can land/takeoff just about anywhere theres 300' of
sortof flat land....opens up whole new world somewhat like the daring Barnstormers
and Bushpilots of an era that has gone before us.
I can hardly wait to get my Ultrastar in the air.
Ray
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
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| Subject: | Re: Back from Oshkosh, P51s' accident |
Pat,
Here's from Avweb:
"NTSB Update on P-51 Mustang Collision
copyright =A9 Larry Grace
In a press briefing Saturday afternoon, NTSB air safety inspector Jim
Silliman said the Safety Board is still very much in the
investigation stage of Friday afternoon's accident involving two P-51
Mustangs participating in the showcase flights at EAA AirVenture. EAA
spokesman Dick Knapinski said Gerald Beck, 58, of Wahpeton, N.D., was
killed in the fiery crash and Casey Odegaard, 24, of Kindred, N.D.,
suffered only minor injuries. Silliman said both airplanes were
landing on Runway 36L at Oshkosh Wittman Regional Airport when Beck's
P-51A hit Odegaard's P-51D from behind before flipping over and
catching fire.
As expected, several airshow watchers caught the accident on camera
or video camcorders, and Silliman said the NTSB is now reviewing a
video and several photos submitted to investigators. He said the
Safety Board will issue a preliminary report soon, followed by a
factual report in about 12 months."
I don't know the tail nos, but I read somewhere that the P51A was
built by the pilot!
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Back from Oshkosh, P51s' accident |
Here is a Video of the accident.
http://aero-tv.net/index.cfm?do=app.bestView&videoid=00b0d640-e714-4b79-b17b-6f3b0f149c4d
Tragic...
Mike
Bob Noyer <a58r@verizon.net> wrote:
Pat, Here's from Avweb:
"NTSB Update on P-51 Mustang Collision
copyright Larry Grace
In a press briefing Saturday afternoon, NTSB air safety inspector Jim Silliman
said the Safety Board is still very much in the investigation stage of Friday
afternoon's accident involving two P-51 Mustangs participating in the showcase
flights at EAA AirVenture. EAA spokesman Dick Knapinski said Gerald Beck, 58,
of Wahpeton, N.D., was killed in the fiery crash and Casey Odegaard, 24, of
Kindred, N.D., suffered only minor injuries. Silliman said both airplanes were
landing on Runway 36L at Oshkosh Wittman Regional Airport when Beck's P-51A
hit Odegaard's P-51D from behind before flipping over and catching fire.
As expected, several airshow watchers caught the accident on camera or video
camcorders, and Silliman said the NTSB is now reviewing a video and several photos
submitted to investigators. He said the Safety Board will issue a preliminary
report soon, followed by a factual report in about 12 months."
I don't know the tail nos, but I read somewhere that the P51A was built by the
pilot!
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: OSH 2007, Meigs arpt, NOT |
Pat,
You'd best update yer Microsplat sim, 'cause Meigs was turned into a
bulldozer training campus a few yrs ago (in the middle of the night!)
by the LessThanHonorable mayor of the city of Big Shoulders, but with
a Pinhead for mayor, aka Daily.
In happier days I've quit flying at old Meigs when taking kids and
visitors to the Rosenwald museum, and the Adler planetarium.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
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I have a Kolb Firestar II with Rotax 447 that's 12 years old :D Check out my
blog to see the dolly I designed & made for it. I dislike the full canopy right
now in the summer heat [Crying or Very sad] I've made a windscreen [Wink]
I also have a set of snow ski's for my Kolb #1044 [Idea] But we don't get hardly
any snow here in upper NC anymore [Question] Global warming [Question]
Naah... I think maybe the sun is just getting hotter [Exclamation] Or the
earth is getting closer to the sun [Shocked] I had tinted canopies on the sailplane
I use to own. That and airvents are a needed item as well. This is my first
post to this group. Peace [Wink]
www.tommythompson.blogspot.com
--------
www.tommythompson.blogspot.com
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: Back from Oshkosh, P51s' accident |
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb tail movement ??? |
If you check out some of the videos recently uploaded you will see the view "Hunting"
back and forth on camera.
I presume this is the result of exactly what you are describing.
Probably just some prop slipstream turbulence or turbulence from the cockpit enclosure.
If its from the Cockpit it will vary more with airspeed but if its from the Prop
slipstream it will not vary as much.
I fly my glider in aero tow 200' behind a tow plane and I can attest first hand
that the prop blast even 200' behind the prop is very turbulent indeed.
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
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| Subject: | Re: Back from Oshkosh, P51s' accident |
On Aug 1, 2007, at 4:57 PM, flymichigan@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
Welcome to the matronics glitch.
Please try again.
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| Subject: | Re: New to the list |
Hey Tommy,
I see you found the place....
This site has "archives" , so if you need to look up info....there's
alot to pick from....But you'll notice some "clutter"
So if you post something that you think "is not" worth archiving ,
and concidered "clutter"....Just write , Do not archive , and
the system will see that ...... "DNA" , doesn't work...
If you notice on the bottom of "my" post , it sez Do Not Archive....
it automaticly puts in on everyone of my posts , because I use it as
a signiture....( nothin I say is worth .02 cents )
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
.
.
.
PS Post some pictures of your plane, we "LIKE" pictures
.
.
.
--------
.
.
.
.
.
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Oshkosh 2007 - What a Trip! |
What a Trip!!
I got home last night at 7:50pm after 6 days and 5 nights of fun.
I had 2 days at Oshkosh 2007 and had a great time with Donnie, Travis, Dennis,
Iziek and Bruce of TNK.
I landed at the most northern airport in the Contiguous USA, Northwest Angle, MN
(58MN), visited the State Capitol Buildings at Bismark, ND and Pierre, SD.
I flew 33.0 hours
Burned 184.8 gallons of fuel.
Flew 2,458 nm.
I had another great time. Photos and videos to follow.
--------
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot
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| Subject: | Re: New to the list |
I like your blogspot. Welcome aboard.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
----- Original Message -----
From: "tommy thompson" <soar8hours@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 4:48 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: New to the list
>
> I have a Kolb Firestar II with Rotax 447 that's 12 years old :D Check
> out my blog to see the dolly I designed & made for it. I dislike the full
> canopy right now in the summer heat [Crying or Very sad] I've made a
> windscreen [Wink] I also have a set of snow ski's for my Kolb #1044
> [Idea] But we don't get hardly any snow here in upper NC anymore
> [Question] Global warming [Question] Naah... I think maybe the sun is
> just getting hotter [Exclamation] Or the earth is getting closer to the
> sun [Shocked] I had tinted canopies on the sailplane I use to own. That
> and airvents are a needed item as well. This is my first post to this
> group. Peace [Wink]
> www.tommythompson.blogspot.com
>
> --------
> www.tommythompson.blogspot.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127000#127000
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Wing strut vibration |
I am getting a rhythmic vibration in my wing struts. I had never noticed
until I began trying to video out of the plane. I can stop it by putting
my hand on the strut. It is my understanding that TNK has stream lined
struts now. Will they stop this strumming? Any help would be
appreciated.
Larry C
do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Non-Kolb related |
Need a favor, maybe somebody will look this up for me -
For years there was an ad in the back of various homebuilder magazines
by a guy who made a big wooden model jet, and it sat on some telescoping
PVC pipe and had valves hooked to the control system. It was a childs
toy, you hooked it up to your garden hose, and it would rise and fall
and turn.
I have lost the url for his web site, can't find it, and can't find any
of his ads in any magazines.
My grand daughter is the right age for me to build one, and now - zip.
Any info appreciated.
Thanks,
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Wing strut vibration |
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell@fmtcblue.com>
...................
Will they stop this strumming? Any help would be appreciated.
Larry,
The answer is yes. I streamlined the struts on the FireFly.
See:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly91.html
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Non-Kolb related |
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Wing strut vibration |
I actually have plastic streamlined fairings for the original round struts.
They perhaps are not aligned at the correct angle. Your finding was 6
degrees. The wing is 9 degrees at flight stance. Would this be 6 degrees at
flight stance?
Larry C
> The answer is yes. I streamlined the struts on the FireFly.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly91.html
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Non-Kolb related |
Richard,
As with a lot of kit plane plans. Aircraft spruce has taken over!!!
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/kitspages/aquajetx.php
Mike
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 5:51 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Non-Kolb related
Need a favor, maybe somebody will look this up for me -
For years there was an ad in the back of various homebuilder magazines by a
guy who made a big wooden model jet, and it sat on some telescoping PVC pipe
and had valves hooked to the control system. It was a childs toy, you hooked
it up to your garden hose, and it would rise and fall and turn.
I have lost the url for his web site, can't find it, and can't find any of
his ads in any magazines.
My grand daughter is the right age for me to build one, and now - zip.
Any info appreciated.
Thanks,
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Kolb Tailwheel Springs |
Today I received the compression type tailwheel springs ordered from Aircraft
Spruce.
On comparison with the original Kolb springs they appear to be much stiffer
and heavier.
I know how to make my own springs, as some on the list have done in the past.
Before I return them and make my own, is/has anyone ever used the springs
from Aircraft Spruce? And with what results? Although much heavier weight wise,
would the additional stiffness be of any advantage control wise?
John Ratcliffe
Mark3X
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 30
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| Subject: | Registration to Inspection Time Laps |
When I register my build, is there any limit on the amount of time between
registration and getting the plane inspected?
John Ratcliffe
Mark3X
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: Kolb Tailwheel Springs |
|
| Before I return them and make my own, is/has anyone ever used the
springs
| from Aircraft Spruce? And with what results? Although much heavier
weight wise,
| would the additional stiffness be of any advantage control wise?
|
|
| John Ratcliffe
John R:
I use compression springs from Maule Aircraft. Used them with the 6"
solid tire and 8" Tundra Tailwheel.
Been using these for years. I prefer them over the feel I get when I
fly the factory Kolbs with soft springs.
john h
Message 32
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| Subject: | The Truth about the SP-LSA rule |
Not explicitly Kolb related but worth reading.
I just got the following from a reliable source. So those of you who think that
the FAA will not be enforcing the new rule after the deadline may want to re-think
that a bit. The whole justification for the SP/LSA (and only way it could
be sold to the FAA) was to regulate the illegal, unregistered heavy UL type
aircraft and un-certificated pilots.
Here it is:
Letter from Earl Lawrence
EAA Vice President Industry and Regulatory Affairs
(920) 426 6522
Dear .....:
This is a good question and you have not seen an answer because the answer is;
"Because that is the way it is."
Of course there is more to the story and I will share my opinions as an individual
who worked with the FAA on this rulemaking from 1994 until today. But, I
must stress it is just that my opinion/perspective not necessarily the facts,
not because there are not facts but because with many things in life there are
many perspectives of the situation.
First when looking at your question you need to remove yourself from any current
realities or perspectives of the rule as it is today. You need to look at the
rule from how it was proposed, or the "selling points" needed to get a new
rule.
Foremost in looking at this question one must understand that the new rule has
NOTHING (I cannot stress this enough) to do about a simpler pilot certificate.
You read that correct. The proposal has nothing to do at all about a simpler
pilot certificate or a no medical certificate.
If one had proposed rulemaking on a simpler easier pilot certificate the FAA,
the DOT, NTSB, and most pilot groups would have opposed the proposal (including
pilot and instructor associations). There are many who still believe that there
should not be a sport pilot certificate and everyone should get a private
pilot certificate.
Now do not get me wrong. EAA did see the potential of this new rule to get more
people in the air, but if we have used that point at all, the SP/LSA rule would
have NEVER been considered.
If you notice during the years we worked on the proposed rule, there was lots
of pictures of very open ultralights shown in magazine articles and other promotional
materials. This was by design.
The campaign to get the rule was about getting "these untrained and undocumented
dangerous ultralight pilots out of the air." This was an argument that FAA,
NTSB, DOT, Homeland Security and Congress was very interested in.
The sport pilot rule was written to create a pilot certificate for ultralight pilots
because they were unregulated at the time. If we had shown pictures of
aircraft with closed cockpits, the powers that controlled the process would have
said "that is a REAL airplane" and they need a "real" pilot certificate.
So those of us who were trying to get the new rule passed spent time convincing
the authorities that the new Sport Pilot was not going to be flying a "real"
airplane, so that we could get the rule passed.
Also, we needed to convince the government that this was NOT about a pilot certificate
without a medical. We had to be able to show that a large number of current
pilots were NOT going to drop their medical and fly as sport pilots as
that would be "a reduction in safety" and FAA, DOT, NTSB would oppose such a move.
The original proposal was for aircraft that were no more than 600 pounds, then
over time the weight increased to 900, 1232, and finally 1320. The last change
was literally in the dark of night by friends of EAA and sport aviation who
understood that we really did want a alternative to the private pilot license,
but we could not say that publicly or even to our fellow pilot associations
as it would have been opposed.
One has to understand that EAA had to work VERY hard to get the industry associations
to not oppose the Sport pilot rule. Many of the traditionalists saw the
rule as a threat and a step backward for aviation.
So the argument all along was to create a pilot certificate and aircraft certification
category to regulate the "illegal ultralights and pilots."
If the industry or many in government had understood our alternative reasons for
the rule, the proposal would have been dead on delivery.
We have sport pilot today because we have good friends in the FAA, particularly
the Administrators that oversaw this effort, and EAA could manage to keep industry
from opposing the effort. We did this by campaigning on an "increase of
safety and regulation for ultralights," not a reduction of safety for current
pilots and aircraft. (note: To many in government Regulation and safety is one
in the same)
Because of these arguments and the need to separate this rulemaking effort from
"reducing regulation/safety of current pilots and aircraft"
and convincing everyone that this was an "increase of regulation/safety for ultralights,"
it was necessary to ensure that no large groups of existing aircraft
would fall into the new category.
The sport pilot certificate was sold on the basis that an "ultralight" pilot was
going to use this certificate to fly an aircraft with no radios and no instruments,
day VFR, in G airspace, carrying one passenger.
So it was necessary to exclude as many current pilots and aircraft in order to
get the regulation passed. (Blame it on politics, but that is the real world.)
Regarding affordability, current pilots say that the new regulation did not result
in any improvements in affordability. The facts are the new aircraft are
less than half the cost of a comparative new (Its not fair to compare a 1950
aircraft with a 2007 aircraft) type certificated aircraft and the sport pilot
certificate is less than half the cost of a private pilot certificate. So for
the new person getting involved in aviation has become more accessible.
The big problem today is access to a Light Sport Aircraft. EAA understands this,
but we had to start somewhere. Every day more light sport aircraft are produced
and sold, which means everyday there is more opportunity to own one.
There are currently over 50 models of new light sport aircraft for sale. Used aircraft
are starting to come up for sale at considerable lower cost than new aircraft.
It is expected that Cessna will soon start to produce a light sport aircraft.
Cessna pilot centers will start to have aircraft to train new sport pilots in,
and like it was in the 1970's these aircraft will be sold after a couple of years
to the students at much reduced costs as used airplanes as the Centers must
purchase new aircraft every two years.
As you may noticed, this is all about the future. The rule was written about
the future and not current pilots and aircraft. Again if that had been the proposal,
there would be no new rule.
For existing pilots, sport pilot does not offer a tremendous amount of benefit
as they have already made the investment in training and possibly in an aircraft
purchase. This is about the future and getting new pilots and new aircraft
into the system.
I hope this helps with understanding how we arrived at the current situation.
Sincerely,
Earl Lawrence
EAA VP Industry and Regulatory Affairs
(920) 426 6522
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127060#127060
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Wing strut vibration |
I actually have plastic streamlined fairings for the original round struts.
They perhaps are not aligned at the correct angle. Your finding was 6
degrees. The wing is 9 degrees at flight stance. Would this be 6 degrees at
flight stance?
Larry,
I built a meter (http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly55.html) so I
could determine the FireFly angle of attack at cruise. It came out at six
degrees, ans so that is what I used. The basic configuration has not
changed for some time and can be seen on the bottom of:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly.html
The only angle in doubt is thrust angle. I may have changed it and not up
dated the drawing.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Do not archive.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I |
Ray,
I don't know about others, but the lower camber of the wing over the cage is wide
open and air enters over the full enclosure windshield, below the leading edge
of the gap seal and escapes wherever it can, which is currently below the
wings just above the cage, if that is a low pressure area. If anything, I would
think that opening up the top aft half of the wing there, will allow better
airflow through that area.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
"Blind respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127062#127062
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Wing strut vibration |
I actually have plastic streamlined fairings for the original round struts.
They perhaps are not aligned at the correct angle. Your finding was 6
degrees. The wing is 9 degrees at flight stance. Would this be 6 degrees at
flight stance?
Larry,
I have thought about this some more. You are able to put much in much more
power and speed into the strut than I can with my FireFly. Do you notice if
the strumming goes away when you slow down to say 60 mph? If so there is a
good chance the preformed/shaped aluminum struts may do the trick. They
should have higher stiffness.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Do not archive.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Wing strut vibration |
On my Firestar,I found the vibration to be engine-prop related,not air load.
From: "Larry Cottrell"
...................
Will they stop this strumming? Any help would be appreciated.
Larry,
The answer is yes. I streamlined the struts on the FireFly.
See:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly91.html
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Wing strut vibration |
Larry and All,
I had the same lift strut harmonic vibration on the Kolbra when I did the first
few flights with the streamlined plastic fairings on. It would only occur at
a very narrow airspeed band about 90 mph. I installed the TNK fairings and have
never had the vibration again.
As for the angle the fairings were set at, I just eyeballed them to and angle that
looked okay.
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS, 1,463 hours and counting
--------
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127079#127079
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root gap seal on FS I |
I fly my firestar without a gap seal on real hot days it really dont make
much difference on how it flys
Ellery N447EB
do not archive
**************************************
all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Tailwheel Springs |
John
I use the Aircraft Spruce compression springs. I have fitted them loose
so that they don't add stress to the rudder system. The springs give you
the ability to more positively control the plane. The most important
feature is that a cross wind will not allow these springs to deflect to
the point were the tail wheel will unlock to full swivel as long as you
maintain control of the rudder. Yes I like them. You may have to adjust
the geometry a bit to allow the tail wheel to unlock properly at full
rudder deflection.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: JRatcli256@aol.com
To: Kolb-List@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:01 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Tailwheel Springs
Today I received the compression type tailwheel springs ordered from
Aircraft Spruce.
On comparison with the original Kolb springs they appear to be much
stiffer and heavier.
I know how to make my own springs, as some on the list have done in
the past.
Before I return them and make my own, is/has anyone ever used the
springs from Aircraft Spruce? And with what results? Although much
heavier weight wise, would the additional stiffness be of any advantage
control wise?
John Ratcliffe
Mark3X
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
lcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982"
href="http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000
000982" target="_blank">AOL.com.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Wing strut vibration |
My vibration is in the 56 to 64 MPH range, or most likely all through all
the speed that I can stay in the air. I notice it most in the 6000 rpm
range. I also had it without the plastic cover so I am sure that it is just
that the round struts do not have the rigidity that the streamlined metal
ones do. Thanks for the help. Now for some creative financial planning.
Larry C
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot1@tx.rr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:41 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing strut vibration
> <kolbrapilot1@tx.rr.com>
>
> Larry and All,
>
> I had the same lift strut harmonic vibration on the Kolbra when I did the
> first few flights with the streamlined plastic fairings on. It would only
> occur at a very narrow airspeed band about 90 mph. I installed the TNK
> fairings and have never had the vibration again.
>
> As for the angle the fairings were set at, I just eyeballed them to and
> angle that looked okay.
>
> John Williamson
> Arlington, TX
>
> Kolbra, 912ULS, 1,463 hours and counting
>
> --------
> John Williamson
> Arlington, TX
>
> Kolbra, 912ULS
> http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127079#127079
>
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Official Kolb-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kolb-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Kolb-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains Kolb-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Kolb-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Kolb-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
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There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
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Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
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Send an email message to:
kolb-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
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When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
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Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
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These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
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The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Kolb-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/kolb-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Kolb-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kolb-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Kolb-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Kolb-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Kolb-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Kolb-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Kolb-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Kolb-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Kolb-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Kolb-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kolb
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kolb-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| Subject: | Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kolb-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kolb-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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